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Most of you guys got it all wrong, there is no point guessing and making assumptions. These questions have been answered by Akira. He states that in terms of power SSJ3 Goku is more powerful than SSJ Gotenks but not SSJ3 Gotenks which makes sense as Ultimate Gohan is considered more powerful than SSJ Gotenks who is considered just slightly more powerful than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu Saga by not by the last episode which concludes with Goku as the best/most powerful Z fighter.

The Reason Goku seems so unsure of himself and plays his power down is for a couple of reasons..1: It's his personality/character (Akira also states this) 2: It's because he didn't want to be the hero and finish Buu off this time for reasons already stated in the show that he wants the world's hero to be passed down from him to his sons and Trunks etc.

One other point is look at the movie where SSJ3 Goku fights toe to toe with Hirudegarn but Ultimae Gohan gets his beaten easily. My understanding is that Ultimate Gohan as stated in DBZ is Gohan with his FULL potential focus on the word 'FULL' me this means yes he can become moe powerful probably if he trains but he would have a limit now and wouldn't be able to transform further or drastically increase his power like Goku who is stated throughout DBZ to truly have no actual limit to his power..Long story short my point is even if Gohan was of a slightly higher power level than SSJ3 Goku during the Buu saga there is no way he could be more powerful in the future considering his full potential was unlocked already which means he has a liit and it probably wasn't far away..

Goku vs gotenks Ppl are so bias with gotenks. First of all base gotenks only got a good hits on fat buu bcuz buu just stood there and let him. Soon as fat buu tried gotenks was no match. Even majin vegeta was able to blast a hole in fat buu and whooped his ass for a little. It's obvious fat buu is always out of it and is slow. Also ssj2 gotenks never put up a good fight with super buu. His super ghosts were the only thigng that did damage and its bcuz the technique is powerful. Yes gotenks power level does effect them but ppl always forget he needed like 6 of them to do damage buu. Anytime ssj gotenks actually went fist to fist with super buu he got his ass whooped. And on top of all this buu revealed to gohan he was waiting for him during his fight with gotenks. Which made it obvious he was not trying to kill gotenks bcuz he wanted to absorb him. So really there's no proof that's completely solid of gotenks being crazy stronger than goku. Yes he might be a little stronger but ppl with gotenks boners love to exaggerate things. Only time gotenks was a match at all was when he was ssj3.and ppl say kid buu is too dumb to hold back when really he was obviously smart enough to make fun of goku and fuck around the whole time plus in the manga goku is way weaker than kid buu. And goku and vegeta never crushed the earrings bcuz they were confident of beating kid buu it was actually bcuz goku said "some things are more important than victories" and all they said was it will work out somehow. They weren't even sure how they were gonna beat buu. And vegeta followed after goku and said "after all saiyans do have their pride". It was more about their egos than anythin. I'm not even sayin ppl gotenks is weaker, all in saying is ppl over exaggerate the fuck out of him.

Gotenks < Goku

There is one thing that is certain, that Goku is way more skilled than Gotenks, fighting or otherwise. Goku has experience and perfect fighting technique while Gotenks wastes time only uses his crappy ki techniques. Personally I think that Goku would have done better than Gotenks versus Super Buu. He was at about the same level with Kid Buu, but of course Super Buu is stronger so I will say Goku is better.

How is he a fighting genius? He has little knowledge of fighting technique (as far as I saw) and he only wastes time with his stupid attacks. If he was a fighting genius he would really have killed Buu. 18 was unable to properly fight might mask because different kicks and punches made him unpredictable, also 18 had not trained nearly as much as Goten and Trunks. You contradicted yourself, you said that hes a genius and then you said if he was serious he would have won, making him a fighting idiot. And stop using the same argument about Gotenks, I've seen the same words on like 3 topics!

his "stupid" attacks work. ghost kamikaze packs a punch and heavily damaged buu. his donut attack hurt buu too. vegeta was called a fighting genius by piccolo and he failed to kill buu. goku is called a fighting genius by vegeta and he wasted too much time for his ssj3 to be efffective. gotenks is a genius FOR HIS AGE. hes not like vegeta or goku yet. and no goten and trunks didnt use different punches and kicks. trunks was on top of the costume for the whole fight and 18 is incapable of losing power just because she doesnt train. goten and trunks were the true handicapped ones. trunks said the costume made it hard to see and move around. 18 had no such limitations. not being serious from page 1 in the battle doesnt mean your not a genius. it means your arrogant. vegeta was named a genius and he is famous for toying around and not killing his opponent.

from what i saw, gotenks had more raw talent in that fight than any other warrior. even vegeta and gohan werent such prodigies at 8 years old. 06:53, August 19, 2011 (UTC)


In terms of strength, Gotenks is stronger but skill Goku definitely has it.

skill never mattered in dbz. if you have a higher power, you win. thats always been the case. and ssj3 gotenks > ssj1 gotenks > base gotenks > ssj1 gotenks (pre rosat) >= ssj3 goku. 07:09, August 15, 2011 (UTC) -

  • BULL! Then Goku would never have won against Frieza, or Vegeta!

Where is that evidence? Gotenks got his ass kicked by Fat Buu while he was in base/SSj level. So that already does not makes him weaker than SSj3 Goku.

gotenks never fought in his ssj form vs fat buu. goku said that ssj1 gotenks is stronger than him. base gotenks after training in the rosat was stated as stronger than what he was before as a super saiyan by piccolo. 06:48, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

It would make no sense for Goku to be stronger than Gotenks. If he were stronger, than why would Goku be assuring Piccolo that once the boys fuse they will easily be able to defeat Buu? After all, he himself could not EASILY do so, if he could at all.Lazarus Plus 23:30, December 7, 2011 (UTC)

Goku is not omniscient. His statement that Gotenks would be stronger was nothing more than an assumption. Whether Gotenks was stronger or not, Goku's statement still means absolutely nothing at all.

Goku Could still win

Gotenks could have likely beat buu if he just went ssj3 at the start instead of messing around. I also think Goku could have probably managed to beat super buu as well. the only reason he had said he didn't beat the fat buu was that he wanted gohan and the boys to try saving the day for once. Goku would still beat gotenks though due to his skill. i know that the above user has said skill does not matter in dbz, only power level, but when we look at many fights, we see this is highly untrue. i cannot think of a single fight where an unskilled fighter beat a skilled one due to his power. look at goku vs. vegeta (beginning of dbz) vegeta was far more powerful than goku, but goku managed to fight the battle to an even point. Yes, he used the kaioken to increase his strength, but he still did alright after he couldn't use it anymore. goku stayed alive on skill. since you will likely argue that goku had help from krillin and gohan, i will provide another. GOKU VS. CELL. Okay. Goku fought against Cell very evenly. This was because of his skill alone. Cell, who was not even fighting at full power, was a lot stronger than goku, yet goku fought instensely. had goku slipped up even a little, cell would have killed him. Goku was able to manage this on SKILL! And in my opinion the power gap btwn goku and cell was much greater than that btwn goku and gotenks. that said, goku could likely beat gotenks because gotenks is not waaaayy above him and goku is far more skilled, meaning he could win.

Response to above unsigned comment: The power gap between Gotenks and Goku is much greater than you are suggesting. Please remember, Gohan powered up trounced the saame Buu that Gotenks had not been doing all that great against. How then could you suggest Goku as a SSJ3 is almost as powerful as even a SSJ1 Gotenks? After all, Gohan was clearly much stronger than Gotenks.Lazarus Plus 01:36, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

If base Gotenks is stronger than ssj3 Goku then that means ssj3 Gotenks is 400x stronger than Goku, and there is no rational explanation to how Super Buu would become more than 400x stronger than Goku, after he outclassed Fat Buu earlier, by simply eating himself

I think it's a little unfair to compare a normal fighter (Goku) to a fusion (Gotenks). How about we do Fusion V. Fusion and see the outcome. Vegetto/Gogeta vs Gotenks. Even if Gotenks went SSJ3 Gogeta and Vegetto would wipe the floor with them. But anyways if it is between Goku and Gotenks, then obviously Gotenks wins. He's a fusion first and foremost. Secondly, Goku admits that "someone stronger then I will fight you" (speaking to Buu). Even if he was talking about Gohan we can say that Ultimate Gohan is not THAT much stronger then SSJ3 Gotenks. This would be my list (during the current time zone): Ultimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 Goku. SuperGogeta91 05:18, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

@Latchley - Some people ignore the ssj multipliers that the SEG provided.

@SuperGogeta91 - A fusion is not always stronger than a normal fighter. Like you showed in your power chain. Ultimate Gohan(A normal fighter)>SSJ3 Gotenks(A fusion)>SSJ3 Goku

~Final~Vegettossj3~Dragon~Vegito super sayan 3 by vegeta ssj3-d30tuf0~Flash!!~ 12:38, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Goku is stronger

Given that Majin Buu was weakened when he absorbed the Kais, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was struggling with Super Buu, & the fact that SSJ3 Goku could wipe out Kid Buu in a single shot, Goku wins. In the Bird Studio license (Japanese) on Chap. 508, Pg. 4, Kibito Kai says "the heart which he gained by going so far as to lower his power through absorption has returned once again to the way it was". That alone puts Kid Buu above Ultra Buu, who is stronger than Super Buu. SaiyanZ 13:05, December 8, 2011 (UTC)


If not counting GT, then Ultimate Gohan is the only exception. No other single character is stronger then a Fusion in DBZ. Even in the movie 13 (Hirudegarn) the ONLY reason Goku finished off Hirudegarn was because he discovered its weakness, after being pummeled a few times. I still think it's a little unfair that they put up Goku against Gotenks. If you want to make the fight fair, it should be Fusion vs. Fusion...but it's not my topic so this is only a suggestion. Anyways Goku, for a normal fighter, still puts up a great challenge to a SSJ3 fusion of Gotenks, so even if power wise he doesn't win, he has my vote as the winner. SuperGogeta91 18:36, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

I have a section on my talk page explaining why I think SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan as well SaiyanZ 20:23, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Dbzfan555's thoughts

Gotenks>Goku MOS13-11TrunksBurningAttackFuture Trunks No!!!!Моментальный снимок 1 (03.10.2011 19-24)FutureTrunksPeaceEp193 20:28, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Just an opinion

I believe Goku would win because Gotenks is total douchebag!

Seriously I've never seen fight worse then the one between Super Buu and Gotenks. It was annoying.

BTW I haven't finished DBZ yet so I'm no "DBpro" xD.

Possibly even

I would say that it is close to even, though if I had to pick who would win, I would say Goku. Goku SS3Shakuran13Tapion with bladeThisDragonFistGokuHirudegarnMovie13endsKonatsian wizard with effectsNOW!SS3Rush 23:10, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

Gotenks is stronger, but Goku win

Fusion has it's downside we called time limit. The fusion only lasts 30 minutes at most and that can be cut down further if Gotenks transform into SSJ3. Once the fusion expires, they won't find themselves able to fuse again without resting. Gotenks disadvantages are he's too arrogant and like to drag out the fight, besides Gotenks won't use SSJ3 form recklessly because it will cut down his time limit. Instant Transmission will be Goku's rope of life here. Just drag out the fight until Gotenks defuses back into Trunks and Goten, then it will be auto-win for Goku


Gotenks wouldn't have to worry about his time limit, either. SSJ Gotenks was above SSJ3 Goku (at least in the Buu Saga), so he wouldn't even have to go SSJ3. If he does go SSJ3, he could defeat Goku in a single blow. Goku could use Instant Transmission, but he has to concentrate to use it, and it's really only instantaneous once he's able to use it - it usually takes him 2-3 secs to use it and that's more than enough time for Gotenks to knock him out (as Gotenks would also be much faster than Goku).

TrunkspointsatGokuThat guy pointed his finger and Kakarot fell down!THATGUYPOINTS!PrinceVegeta66SSJ2Vegeta vs KidBuu 20:14, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, SSJ Gotenks is slightly stronger than SSJ3 Goku, so it's not gonna be easy for him to defeat SSJ3 Goku. I agree with SSJ3 Gotenks is much stronger than Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku, but to defeat SSJ3 Goku in single blow? That's a stretch, my friend... It's Goku we're talking about here. I dont' know why you said SSJ Gotenks is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Based from what I've seen, SSJ Gotenks is still much weaker compared to Super Buu. Super Buu didn't even trying during his fight against Gotenks, it's more like he's playing (pretend to be hurt when hit by galactic donut, drinking cream soda... ) with Gotenks and accept all attack directed at him and Super Buu even have an upperhand without being serious. The only time he took a real damage is when Gotenks tricked him with Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack. Remember what Super Buu said when he struggling against Gohan? "I can't let anyone become stronger than me!", this is how Super Buu will react if he faced an opponent stronger than himself. But Super Buu didn't say that when he fought with SSJ Gotenks. In SSJ3 Gotenks case, I think he can't say it, because he was beaten without being given a chance to talk XD 21:59, August 3, 2012 (UTC)Hiruman

^ I didn't say SSJ Gotenks was much stronger, just that he was above. And this is before he goes SSJ3. Look at it like this, SSJ Goku at this point is above, say, SSJ Gohan. Let's say Gohan stays at SSJ for the sake of this example. If Goku goes SSJ3, don't you think he'd win with a single blow? If SSJ3 Gotenks fought SSJ3 Goku, it'd almost be like he's fighting the SSJ version of himself in terms of power, so that's why I think he'd win with a single blow (once he can get that blow, as Goku has Instant Transmission).

TrunkspointsatGokuThat guy pointed his finger and Kakarot fell down!THATGUYPOINTS!PrinceVegeta66SSJ2Vegeta vs KidBuu 22:22, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

^ Sorry. I'm under impression you think SSJ Gotenks is much stronger because of this: " usually takes him 2-3 secs to use it and that's more than enough time for Gotenks to knock him out (as Gotenks would also be much faster than Goku)." We all know how tough Goku is. He's always fighting against much stronger opponent and survive their attacks, that's why I said OHKO is impossible if you fight against Goku. Let's take Freeza and Broly as an example. Goku with 10x Kaioken could take Freeza (50% = 60 million PL) several attacks, and he's beaten so badly by Broly and survive. Even Base Vegeta didn't KO instantly after getting hit by Kid Buu. Sure, he's face turned into @#!$%!, but he's still survive XD Hiruman (talk) 04:40, August 4, 2012 (UTC)

Goku is clearly stronger than Gotenks, come on! Goku could have defeated Fat Buu, he said so. Super Buu may have been stronger, and according to the original manga (but not the tv show) Goku said he couldn't beat him. But he still could hold his own against and him, and we saw SS3 Gotenks and he didn't beat Super Buu, he barely touched his power level. In the Cell Games the Saiyans who could endure the fight longer were better placed, we saw Goku and Gohan with that advantage. Fusion+SS3 is a lethal combo, it leaves the fighter's body too tired and fusion wears off sooner.

Goku clearly could match SS3 Gotenks in the same form, because he wouldn't have a 10 or 15 minute time limit. If he needed to, he could Instant Transmission, he did it against Cell w/17 absorbed and that Cell was far ahead of him in power at the time. Gotenks couldn't reach Goku in time to hit him once with Instant Transmission, and even then he'd probably look around and go "uh, where'd he go" for a minute or so, like a fool. Gotenks wasn't very intelligent, he was just a little boy, whereas Goku had a good shout to be considered the most battle-hardened veteran in the history of the DBZ universe. He had been fighting and training for years in otherworld with the best that realm had to offer. That's why he could take on Kid Buu (and bear in mind they said Kid Buu was the strongest Buu, definitely far ahead of Fat Buu).

Gohan Unleashed could take on SS3 Goku and win, that I believe, but SS3 Gotenks was just a clown, a kid's brain vs an adult's is always going to be an unfair match, and Goku would probably have made Gotenks make so many mistakes that his fusion wore off even quicker. And for pure power, even if SS3 Gotenks was ahead, I'm certain Goku could beat him, he's far too tough to be beaten in like 10-15 minutes

^ Gotenks didn't touch Super Buu's power level? He almost finished him off if his SSJ3 didn't run out.

Gotenks couldn't reach Goku once Instant Transmission happens? He'd hit him before that, IT takes a good 2-3 secs since Goku has to concentrate on a ki signature. Remember how long it took against Semi-Perfect Cell?

Goku has to concentrate on ki if that person is very far away (searching for New Namek), have a very weak ki (make him hard to differentiate between other human, like Bulma) or the searching a person he never met before (searching for Broly). On several occasion Goku's been shown using Instant Transmission without concentrate like when he brought Dende from New Namek (he stop in King Kai's planet to show Dende then left immediately) and borrowing Mutenroshi sunglasses (Mutenroshi said he saw Goku's ghost). In his fight against Metal Cooler, he could use it immediately without concentrating. He even use it while exchanging blow with M.Cooler. In Warp Kamehame case, I think it's not because he need to concentrate on Cell's ki... Remember, he's using a Full Power Kamehame, so it's more reasonable to think that he need some time to charge his Kamehame than concentrate on enemy Ki, right?

Goku held his own against Super Buu? They fought in filler, and even so, he got whooped. Given that he didn't go SSJ3, but it wouldn't make a difference.

Kid Buu is the strongest Buu? Even if he's stronger than Super Buu, he is not stronger than Gotenks-Buu or Gohan-Buu. And even so, Goku claimed Kid Buu was toying with him. That just means both Kid Buu and Super Buu are above Goku.

But Goku also said he could defeat him if he reach his max power

"Far too tough"? If there's even a 20% or 30% difference in power, you're screwed, no matter who you are. Gotenks is at least 3x stronger than Goku. Goku's only shot is using Instant Transmission until the fusion wears off.

Yeah. You're screwed, but not instantly.

SSJ3 Goku vs Janemba : Janemba was toying around with SSJ 3 Goku and was managed to completely overpower SSJ3 Goku. I'm pretty sure Janemba is stronger than Kid Buu and at least 2x stronger than Goku, but Goku's still able to hold his ground.

SSJ3 Goku vs Hirudegarn : Hirudegarn is obviously stronger than Ultimate Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks (both of them are at least 3x Goku). SSJ3 Gotenks (at least 3x stronger than Goku) defuse immediately after taking 1 hit from Hirudegarn, but not for Goku. Goku still able to take a several beating while provoking Hirudegarn = Tough

And the last one is for the lulz. VEKU!!! VS Super Janemba. Their power differences is *insert number* times, but this fat guy manage to survive against Janemba attacks for 30 minutes. If Veku manage to do it, why not SSJ3 Goku? lol

SSJ3 Goku>>SSJ3 Gotenks

I belive it's obvious that Goku is stronger.The only way to prove that,is if you have ever read the manga.SSJ3 Goku was equal to Kid Buu,who according to the manga,was far above Super Buu.Goku could also be a little bit stronger than Kid Buu because he admitted himself he could of destroyed Kid Buu but wanted Vegeta to have a shot.

SSJ3 Goku>=Kid Buu>>Super Buu=SSJ3 Gotenks

Besides,Goku has been training ever since he was a child,I don't think Goku would of trained so many yeas,achieved SSJ3 and gone through so many things,just to get beaten by 2 little kids.

That is incorrect. Goku says he could beat Kid Buu if he can reach full power, but that he cannot beat Super Buu. SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > Full power SSJ3 Goku >= Kid Buu > SSJ3 Goku. Goku is not getting beaten by "2 little kids," but by the ridiculous power of the fusion. Janemba4eva (talk) 22:13, November 4, 2012 (UTC)

Is that even a serious question?Goku can win

This is so stupid.SSJ3 Goku would crash SSJ3 Gotenks.Why?Simply because SSJ3 Goku only toyed with Fat Buu (that had the influence of the Kai's so was weaker),and keep in mind that Super Buu also has the influence of the Kais because he has the Good Buu absorbed (which is nothing but pure goodness).Yet,SSJ3 Goku was equal to a twice stronger,faster,crazier,and more dangerous Kid Buu (which didn't have any influence so nothing stopped him from using his 100% strength).Kid Buu>>>Super Buu,and since Goku was equal to Kid Buu while Gotenks was equal to Super Buu,Gotenks gets kicked in the pussy.In other words:

Kid Buu/SSJ3 Goku>>>Super Buu/SSJ3 Gotenks>>>>SSJ Goku>>>SSJ Gotenks>>Base Goku>Base Gotenks

This isn't stupid. You sir are stupid. Stupid as hell.

True, SSJ3 Goku could've killed Fat Buu but didn't do it because he knew that Gotenks is capable of killing Buu as well.

I don't know if Super Buu had "the influence of the Kais" or not but Super Buu is many times more powerful than Fat Buu. Even if he has Fat Buu insied of him it doesn't make him good/weak. And who told you that Kid Buu is twice as strong as Super Buu ? That is funny. Base Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. Not mentioning Super Buu w/Gotenks and Super Buu w/Gohan. 

Yes, Kid Buu was pure evil, didn't have any Kai inside, AND THAT'S why he was weaker than Super Buu. Kid Buu was more dangerous, more evil but not stronger. And Super Buu was evil enough to kill entire Earth's population. 

Post ROSAT SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. SSJ3 Goku is nowhere SSJ3 Gotenks. 

Goku stated himself when he was insied of Super Buu with Vegeta that if they leave now they will be easily killed by Super Buu. 

In other words:

Super Buu with Gohan > Super Buu with Gotenks > Ultimate Gohan >  SSJ3 Gotenks >Super Buu with Piccolo, Goten, Trunks >  Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku - Full Power > Kid Buu > Fat Buu.

Post ROSAT Gotenks is very strong, if you can't see this you are just some Goku fanboy that can't accept that at this point of the series Goku is not the strongest. Oko500 (talk) 21:50, December 3, 2012 (UTC)

Goku and fusion gots is would be a salemate

I think it will be a staple mate because goku has super saiyen 1 2 and 3 but gotanks only goes 1 and3. so I think there power be eqevellent until fusion wares of in30 minutes then he wold destroy goten and trunks


Super saiyan 3 gotenks > super saiyan 3 goku = super saiyan gotenks > base gotenks. That's how I look at it--Ssj3gogeta96 (talk) 05:20, February 14, 2013 (UTC)ssj3gogeta96

goku vs gotenks

ssj3 goku is stronger than ssj3 gotenks because in wrath of the dragon gotenks got slapped and unfusioned and goku went ssj3 and killed the monster that slapped gotenks so i think goku would win 00:16, May 10, 2013 (UTC)ssjoptimus

Goku. No question

Think about it this way, if ssj 3 gotenks was struggling against super buu no absorptions, and goku was able to hold his own against super buu gotenks and piccolo absorbed, obviously goku is stronger. Super saiyan 2 goku probably could have taken super buu, seeing as how ssj 2 goku was able to challenge kid buu without getting his ass kicked (kid buu was stronger than super buu). the only reason goku wasn't able to kill kid buu right away cuz he wasn't even close to full power.


Gotenks or Goku?

When Gotenks first introduced his super saiyan form, both Goku and Piccolo alike stated that he would have more than enough power to defeat Majin Buu. We know this is an accurate statement because Goku and Piccolo have felt Majin Buu's ki before, so they should be able to gauge accurately Gotenks' strength to Buu.

When Goku prepared to face Majin Buu in combat, he stated that a super saiyan 2 wouldn't be much of a challenge for him, and instead transforms into a super saiyan 3. It's suggested that Goku could have beat Buu in this form, but decided not to so Goten and Trunks would have a chance.

Using these facts, we can conclude that SSJ Gotenks is at least equal to SSJ3 Goku. Now the SSJ multiplier is 50, and the SSJ3 multiplier is 400. That means a transition from SSJ to SSJ3 would be an 8 times increase of power. That means Gotenks super saiyan 3 would be 8x stronger than Goku SSJ3. In short, Gotenks completely ouclasses Goku in strength.

However, Goku obviously has more fighting skill. Gotenks is very cocky, so Goku would have the upper hand in that area. This could also work to his advantage becuase Gotenks has a limited time thanks to the fusion. Its hard to say.

Evolve 20 (talk) 15:19, August 14, 2013 (UTC)

Watch the anime, read the manga, then speak!

SSJ3 Goku vs SSJ3 Gotenks

Ok, first thing is this, Goku never says anywhere in the manga or anime, Japanese or Englsih, that Gotenks is stronger than him. You will not be able to find a chapter number or episode number............. Finished looking yet?? Now that we have that cleared up, let's get some facts stated. For references of proof, I am going to use the Wrath of the Dragon movie as evidence to support Goku being stronger. Goku says that Gotenks is unbelievably strong. The Supreme Kai states that Gotenks might even be stronger than Goku. Goku laughs, and says that he could do that too. Ok, now SSJ3 Gotenks fought pretty evenly with Super Buu, he was apparently about to destroy him, but lost his SSJ3 ability and then the fusion wore off. Super Buu says to Gohan, that he was just warming up against Gotenks. Now, I say he is talking out of his ass, but none the less, Gohan comletley thrashes Super Buu. Super Buu abosorbs Piccolo (about as strong as a SSJ) and SSJ3 Gotenks. That makes Buutenks much stronger than Super Buu. At first they fight equally, but Buutenks virtually wrecked Gohan's world. Goku returns as a SSJ3 to fight Buutenks to buy time. He also, is completely out fought. I don't even think he got a hit in. Ok, after the fusion wears off, you are presented with Buiccolo. Goku asks if Buu really expects to beat him like that. Buuiccolo is Super Buu plus the power of Piccolo and 2 SSJ boys. So, Buuiccolo is stronger than Super Buu. If Goku SSJ3 can beat Buuiccolo, then that makes him stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since Gotenks is either equal to Super Buu or slightly weaker. That shows that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, and possibly equal to Mystic Gohan. Now Mystic Gohan is just Gohan's full potential at the time (SSJ2) unlocked in his base form. Obviously there was more power inside Gohan as he was about a SSJ3 in Ultimate Form, after the Old Kai tells him to power up. Goku says that he doesn't believe he can beat Super Buu, but can beat Buuiccolo. So, that means that Goku talks out his ass as well. Now, in Wrath of the Dragon, Gohan in his Ultimate form is completley scraped by Hirudagarn, as Goku in SSJ3 efforlessly destroys him. Yes, it was effortlessly around 2 minutes of screen time. So, there is proof, that SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was in fact stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Since, there is no way to calculate how strong fusion is, we substitute this formula. Max equal power levels added together and multiplied by 2 is the base fusion. I would say Goten and Trunks are about 1/4 as strong as Vegeta or Goku. So if Goku's power level is 10, that makes their power levels 2.5 as SSJ. Goku in his base form in a serious fight would destroy both of those boys as SSJ, argue as much as you want, but we all know it. You add those and multiply by 2 and that gives you 10 as a base Gotenks. That would follow Goku and put SSJ3 Gotenks and Goku at a power level of 4000. Making them equl, as is Ultimate Gohan. But since we have Gohan beating the Buu that fought equally with SSJ3 Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku beating the monster that Ultimate Gohan couldn't that means that Goku as a SSJ3 is slightly stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. Also, Trunks and Goten are not even 9 years old. Goku has been fighting since he was a small child and is now a full grown man. He would easily whoop Trunks and Goten in their SSJ forms if they fought, so I would say also because of skill and experience that Goku is the best all around. -UltimateSSJ1-

Akira stated that UltimateGohan was stronger than a SSJ3.You can't compare what Akira said with Hildegarn,just because it wasn't "canon".Moflium-Devote (talk) 14:11, June 15, 2015 (UTC)

Logically Speaking, Probably Goku

On my first instinct, I'd say Gotenks would take the win. In merely his Super Saiyan state, Goku and Piccolo have stated that Gotenks would have more than enough power to defeat Fat Buu, a feat only possible at that point by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Assuming the two are equals based off that statement, Gotenks would be 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku at Super Saiyan 3. So as far as raw power level goes, Gotenks is obviously superior. This is actually proven in the anime/manga, when Gotenks faces off against Super Buu. Goku said that he thought he couldn't defeat Super Buu, whereas Gotenks fought about evenly agianst him.

However, this particular match up includes not just strength, but smarts. Goku is the greatest martial artist of all time, and an incredible strategist. Gotenks may be 8x more powerful, but Goku outclasses him in hand to hand combat, so Goku could hold his own. Take his battle with Janemba for example. Super Janemba is way more powerful than Goku, but Goku managed to land a bunch of good hits during their fight. Why? Because Goku is skilled! Not only that, but in the video game Shin Budokai, its revealed that Janemba is actually stronger than Gotenks, so Goku shoudn't have too many problems if he fights him up close and personal.

The only thing Goku needs to worry about is Gotenks' ki attacks. Sure, as far as punches and kicks go Goku is fine. But ki-based attacks? Thats another story. Gotenks' move set is very strange and unpredictable, so Goku may have trouble trying to anticipate his next move. Also, Gotenks is always yelling out the names of his attacks, which might be confusing and a little distracting. However, this does give Goku an opportunity to attack while Gotenks is talking.

The final reason I see Goku winning is that Gotenks is a fusion, and at SSJ3, Gotenks fusion time is sortened greatly. So as long as Goku can hold out, Gotenks will defuse into Goten and Trunks, just like he did against Super Buu. Sure, Goku's SSJ3 form drains his ki, but thats not exactly a problem, because at this point, Goku can handle the transformation for extensive periods of time, as seen in the Kid Buu fight.

So, yeah, Goku wins.

Evolve 20 (talk) 00:59, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

With the experience and fighting smarts, he definitely outclasses Gotenks. But to say that SSJ Gotenks is 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku is absurd. Goku whoops fat Buu, says he can't beat Super Buu and then turns around and says that Buuiccolo isn't any match for him. Buuiccolo is Super Buu with Piccolo and the boys (2 SSJs). So he is stronger than Super Buu. So if Goku as a SSJ3 can beat Buuiccolo, then he would also be able to beat Super Buu. Not to mention Goku lies constantly about his power. If Goku is a base of 10, then as a SSJ3 he would be 4000, Gotenks as a SSJ3 was about equal, but probably less, since he appeared weaker than Ultimate Gohan and he was whooped by Hirudagarn, which Goku destroyed in like 2 minutes as a SSJ3. Piccolo states that Goku doesn't even try to fight Super Buu. Also, Super Buu is equal to Majin Buu and Kid Buu. Or atleast those 3 are around the same strength. Majin Buu is fat Buu prior to seperating. The Good Buu is the weakest form, then Evil Buu, then Majin Buu, then Super Buu then Kid Buu.  So with that being said, Goku held his own against Kid Buu, actually thumped him pretty good. That also makes Goku stronger than Gotenks.—This unsigned comment was made by Ultimatessj1 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!