Contents 1 Another possible solution 2 Powdering down the grease fire 3 Old 4 The rest? 5 My view 6 And me 7 My views 8 Opinion of a Long-Term Fan 9 As a long term fan II & Wiki user 10 Explication 11 All Names Should Be Used 12 Original Japanese names should come before name changes 13 English Language Wiki 14 What seems logical to me... 15 My opinion 16 So... has this been established? 17 what should be done 18 So are we in agreement? 19 I don't agree 20 Reply 21 Thoughts from a Fansubber 22 Thoughts from a Fansubber (continued) 23 Reply 24 My thoughts 25 Are we settled? 26 Not the place for sub/dub debate 27 Bojack Unbound 28 Hercule/Mr. Satan

Another possible solution

I think that the pages of characters/places/items/misc. that have both a Japanese and an English name (Kuririn/Krillin for example) should have both names in the title of the article. And yes, I know that pages do indeed have these. Debochira 20:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean having redirects so that an article like Kuririn would redirect to Krillin (or vice versa) or do you mean actually having the article be named Kuririn/Krillin/Kulilin...etc.? I definitely agree with having all the titles redirect to the article, but the latter solution could get us stuck with some pretty messy article titles. :-D --  talk contr 23:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Powdering down the grease fire

I've got a pretty decent solution to cover this. This is an English site, so naturally it should use the English translations. The Japanese do not say Goku or Kakarot, they have their own manner of spelling. Saiya-Jin is how the English replicate the japanese term. However, in the English translations of the Dragonball series, they used Saiyan.

Now, on to the solution options. 1) The easiest solution would be to put a link on the top of this Wiki that directs users (no matter what page they are on) to a page containing a list of all the characters, their traditional japanese writing, and the Japanese-English conversions. 2) A more complex, but possibly further satisfying idea. Create a script so when you hover over the linked character names, they have the alternative spelling. 3) The hardest solution would be to create an alternative Wiki using all the information from here and use the Japanese-English renditions.

Now, this is just a suggestion. I do not care either way myself, but the truth is, closed captioning for the English dubs of the series is spelled without the "jin" and such.

Lets strive for constructive work on this wiki to make it a better website for information!

66.90.21.216 09:59, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Those first two sound like pretty elegant solutions to me. Like you said, #3 is really outside the scope of a single wiki. Anyone with a lot of wiki know-how know how much work it would be to have automated naming tips? --  talk contr 12:06, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Old

Here's my word. Race names (all ending with -jin), should be properly translated to make this an English wiki. For example, Saiya-jin is too raw. It's like going over to Wikipedia.com and editing the term Japanese to make it Nihon-jin. I hope everyone can see this. SSJ needs to be revised to SS. --74.194.118.203 14:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I don't see it. I've always rooted for the original names and terminology myself. Takeshi357 02:33, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, the suffix "Jin" means Person, so there isnt too much need for it, but I do enjoy authenticity.

I say that we should state both. For example: Saiyan/Saiya-Jin

Super Saiyan will work fine, since this is an English site, and Closed Captioning displays "Saiyan". Super Saiyan, SS is the appropriate English spelling.

The rest?

What happened to the rest of this, it used to be a large discussion with a huge table attempting to find all the names and their origins, can someone help me out here? Also, on-topic, ONE person give an adequate, well thought out reason as for why we should use ANYTRHING but the source material(Manga) names. Just one, I dare you. Point of View, Different Versions

My view

I think we should have the original, japanese names for everything (but as the above user said, ditch the jin from sayai-jin). Also, Majin Buu! He is a Majin, not a Dijin and the original jap spelling, uu. --Kuriza 05:34, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

And me

Why don't we just use all of the names? Title it with the most common names for the search, yet have AKA or something. It's not that hard.

My views

I will say that I am totally for the Japanese spellings of the names, however I also understand that this is a Dragon Ball Wiki, and it is not Wikipedia. With Wikipedia there is a serious need to have original spellings and terms, however, with a Wiki, I believe that it should be treated less formally as more fans will be here than non-fans. Most fans are general fans and not hard core ones or even ones that are interested in the Japanese variants of the names. The English may be less desirable, but they are easier to understand to a wider range of fanbase. On Wikipedia, we use the English manga names, and I'd rather use that then the anime dub names. --GarakTheSpy 12:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Opinion of a Long-Term Fan

Hi, I've been a fan of DB/DBZ since long before it was translated to English; in fact, I first watched most of the series in unsubbed, undubbed format on VHS tapes.My opinion on the names is this:

Personally, I prefer the original names. HOWEVER, there are several other issues to consider:

(1) The actual Japanese names aren't even written in "Romaji" characters normally. As a consequence, for quite a number of these names there really ISN'T an official spelling, and some of the ones that have become official are, to my ear, simply wrong. (For instance, when I listen to the original Japanese, I don't hear "Krillin" or "Yamcha", I hear "Kuririn" and "Yamucha")

(2) This wiki's being written in English

(3) Consequently, most of the readers will be more familiar with, and looking for, the official English spellings of names.

(4) Many of Toriyama's names, however, MEANT something.

Therefore -- overall -- I would suggest the following:

All MAIN ENTRIES on characters use the official English name as the baseline.

Character entries should include alternate spellings and/or meanings of names.

By including the alternate spellings in the main character entry, people searching for the character by a different spelling will be directed to the correct spelling for the Wiki, and there's also a clear acknowledgement on our part that the names used here are simply a matter of recognizing practical limitations.

I'll note that a number of names have very much DEBATED meanings/sources, and all of these should be included.

For instance, the entry for Dr. Gero currently says that his name may come from the number "Zero". In my view, this is unlikely. One factoid about Japanese is that it is very rare for a word to end with a consonant sound, and indeed it's rare for two consonant sounds to occur without a vowel between; Japanese versions of English words show this clearly -- "Target", for instance, becomes something like "tarugeto". As many of Toriyama's names were English "steals", a much more likely origin for Gero's name -- especially if you listen carefully to the pronunciation -- is "Gear". This makes a great deal of sense for a mad scientist (tinkering with men made of gears and wires), and also fits with the closely related creators of artificial warriors in the DBZ Movie 2, Dr. Wheelo and Dr. Cochinu (Wheel and Coach).

Nonetheless, I would not want to remove the possible reference to "zero", but simply add to it a notation that "gear" is an equally possible origin.

As a long term fan II & Wiki user

Guys - wouldn't it be reasonable to create your articles on English based headwords and enter a redirect from transscriptionned names?

And in the introduction of the article - what about using a head line like:

Yada-yada-yada (jap. ヤダヤダヤダ yadayadayada) is a special technique used by dunno.

BTW, what's the point in transscripted gairaigo & waseigo names? --87.168.46.6 04:04, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Explication

What are you guys talking about? Some characters have different names in the English manga and different English anime dubs. See, there is more then one English name. But, as the anime is more popular, people think that's the only name... To decide which of the names should be used, it was decided to use the one most close to the original Japanese name, which are more accurate.

All Names Should Be Used

Personally, I think the US anime names should be used for the main heading (Krillin, Yamcha, Hercule, etc.). All alternate names/spellings should redirect to that header (so Kuririn, Klilyn, etc. would all go to "Krillin.") At the top of that character's page should be a list of the common alternate names, as well as the meanings/puns behind those names. As for which names should be used in the articles themselves, I don't know what to say. I would PREFER to see the "official" English spellings of the original names used. In other words, I would prefer Mr. Satan over Hercule, but I would also prefer Vegeta over Bejiita. Just please, PLEASE don't allow an article with "Gokou." -Krendall 20:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Original Japanese names should come before name changes

In other words, Djinn Buu shouldn't be used because it's a flat out name change, not a translation. Same with Mr.Satan/Hercule. Also, even though this is an English wiki, it's an English Wiki for a Japanese series, and as such, whatever name is used in the Japanese versions should come first and foremost. Mr.Satan, not Hercule; Majin Buu, not Djinn Buu.

Starone56 17:43, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

English Language Wiki

This is an English language wiki and therefore the english names should be used. Using names like Kururin for Krillin means you should be calling the series "Doragon Buru Zetto", most people wouldn't have a clue what you were on about.

More Importantly, who are we to say ベジータ should be Bejiita? Romanji is only an approximation at best to the Japanese character system, in fact, all Japanese merchandise calls "ベジータ”, Vegeta. One example can be seen here: http://www.gadgetspirit.com/pic/figure/gashapon/dragonball_realworks3/vegeta_front.jpg

Spelling things out in Romanji is only going to make matters worse as most people will pronounce those words in their own accent and KUU-RURR-RIIN sounds nothing like クルリん which in fact sounds a LOT like Krillin. As for name changes like Satan -> Hercule, the only argument I have for that is again, being an english language wiki, most users will have seen the most popular english dubs of this.

I'm not advocating the use of Romanji. I'm saying we should use the closest English translation of the Japanese name. So we'd use Vegeta, not Bejita, because Vegeta is an English translation that stays true to the original Japanese name. Hercule is not a translation but a full blown name change, and thus, should not but used over his original name, Mr.Satan. Also, Funimation's uncut English dub calls him Mr.Satan, not Hercule. So that's more reason for Mr.Satan to take president over Hercule.

04:17, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

What seems logical to me...

...is that the names of the characters should be the names used from the most popular English version of Dragon Ball/Z/GT. What would that be? The American English dub, I'm guessing. However, I think it's plausible to put the transliteration for the names in the article also; personally I dislike the American dub and prefer using the original Japanese names, and many other people would too, but there are others who would only know the dub, so this should work for everyone, yes?

An example would be using Kuririn's name. The article would be named 'Krillin' (and have all other spellings directed automatically to it), because this is the most widely used dubbing of the name. So it would be 'Krillin, also known as Kuririn, Kulilin, Klilin, etc etc'. Or perhaps have a separate section at the bottom in which the other spellings of the name are listed - this can probably be used for almost every single character in the Dragon Ball/Z/GT series - even Goku, Gokuu, Gokuh, Gokou.

Anyway, that's just my opinion. It seems logical to me to do that - after all if this is a database for fans it makes sense to use the most widely used name to limit confusion but also have other spellings so some people won't look up an article and think, "Wtf, that's not how you spell the name!' etc etc. Thoughts?

My opinion

I tend to agree the English names should be used. Like was said above, this is an English wiki, likely to be frequented by English-speaking fans familiar with English character names. The various names should of course be discussed in their character's respective article, but for typical references, I'd think using the English names would make the most sense. As to which English name to use, I'd probably go with whichever one was used most commonly on the English anime dub. That's what the most people will be familiar with and search for first. 72.160.93.25 09:04, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I think they should be named after thir original names, the ones that your hear from the Japanese dubs, like Paikuhan over Pikkon and Serippa over Fasha, most because they are know everywhere by their original names and most people who are familiarized with their english names are only those who live where English is the major language. And even this being an English wiki, it is used by people from everywhere, for example, I'm from Brazil, and here is Kuririn over Krillin.

But remember, Pikkon's original name is not Paikuhan; it's パイクーハン. The Romanji names aren't as well-known in areas like the US and UK where the English anime has aired, which undoubtedly accounts for most of this site's traffic. No offense intended to your preferences or the preferences of those in your area, of course. But we have to consider that what applies to many (or even most) parts of the world doesn't necessarily apply to a majority English-speaking segment. -- nonoitall 21:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

It's Paikuhan, you will find it if you watch the Japanese dub, or play Budokai Tenkaichi 3, Goku speaks "Paikuhan" when he refers to this character. No one knows who Pikkon is outside of North America, but most people around the world knows who Paikuhan is if you ask. I myself never heard about that "Pikkon" until I've played the NTSC U/C DBZ Budokai Tenkaichi 3, and I'm a DBZ fan since 1998.

No matter how you slice it, his original name is パイクーハン. "Paikuhan" is Romanized from the Japanese word, and despite its usage elsewhere, it is no more original than "Pikkon". All the major English dubs use "Pikkon", and he's not present in the original manga. The Ocean dub's pronunciation of "Pikkon" also preserves the original pun very well, while "Paikuhan" cannot be made to do so in English. -- nonoitall 21:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't care if it's named Pikkon or Paikuhan, but it could at least be put like this: Pikkon(Paikuhan), or some other reference.

Absolutely. I believe that no matter what naming scheme we go with, we should be sure to list all the versions of the characters' names on their pages. That way, even if a reader is unfamiliar with our primary naming conventions, they can still figure out what the articles are talking about by following links. -- nonoitall 01:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

So... has this been established?

It would be good if this got decided one way or the other so we could get the articles looking a little more consistent. Nonoitall 01:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

what should be done

It makes more sense to use the dub names, most of America knows Kuririn by Krillin. This is and English Wiki and should use the English names because most fans know DB by the english anime and not the manga. We should also use the dub names for techniques. Most people do not know a kienzan is a destructo disk and get confused. Others don't know what a Genki Dama is. this is a Dragonball anime site not manga site because it contains information on gt and the movies and most images come from the anime or the videogames

So are we in agreement?

If we're in agreement I'd like to update Forum:Manual of Style to reflect the new decision here. Any objections? -- nonoitall 02:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree

I dont agree, see even though youre right about people not knowing the correct names, then maybe we should teach them the correct names, the anime isn't canon, I think everyone should know the correct canon names, and information

Just because the canon is Japanese, doesn't mean the English wiki should use Japanese names. You don't see English bibles reffering to God as Deus, even though that's the original Latin term. As a result, we should use 'canon English' naming.

But they do use YHWH, which IS the original Hebrew term. Lulz @ "orginal Latin term," as if them Jews spoke Latin.

On the other hand, if we go by Canon, isn't it supposed to be spelled Gokuh, as Toriyama spelled it in the Manga?

Well, technically speaking, YHWH is not the original Hebrew name — it's a romanized version of the original. (The original is written in Hebrew characters.) Actually, I'm not aware of many English Bibles that use "YHWH". Most (inaccurately) render it as either "GOD" or "THE LORD", while a few use the English equivalent for the name, Jehovah. Likewise, it would seem to make sense to use an English equivalent here, as it's what the readers know, and it's what fits in with the language of the articles. --  talk contr 10:53, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Besides, Toriyama's version of the manga is Japanese, while this wiki is directed to English viewers. Because Toriyama's manga is original source material, naturally everything that appears in it is notable here. The main issue is recognizably though, as thanks to the English anime dubs, the numerous localized DB video games, and of course the Dragon Ball: Evolution film (produced by a major film studio), 'Goku' is the name that most would generally recognize the character by. Also, the typical English Dragon Ball fan might not be familiar with a character or technique is if it is referred to here as Toriyama spells it (for instance, my knowledge of Japanese not being extremely diverse, all I can assume from seeing the words "Bushitsu Shyutsu Gen Majyutsu" is that there is a form of magic involved; I have to actually look into the article if I want to know what the name is in English). Storm 21:05, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Reply

I certainly that the original names should be retained on their subjects' articles. But it seems to make more sense to use the English anime names for general references and article names. For example, the article named "Krillin" lists his other names as well. This has the benefit of being easily understood by the majority of readers, and also educates anyone interested about the original names. Otherwise, like was said above, Dragon Ball Z would have to be referred to as Doragon Buru Zetto (or, even more ridiculously, ドラゴンボールぜっと). My opinion is that Japanese wiki's can use Japanese names, and English wiki's can use English names. Both can list alternate names in the appropraite place. -- nonoitall 09:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts from a Fansubber

I've run across many problems as a fansubber as to which spelling of names and things to utilize. Some are obvious, while others are not. As an example there are 2 characters that I would like to point out. First is Bulma. Her name is obviously supposed to be Bulma instead of Buruma because we see it on her clothes and her hat several times in Dragon Ball. Next is Kuririn. Kuririn is the spelling I chose for his name even though on his hat it says Kulilin, which I might actually go back and change.

Now the problem comes from the fact that this is an english language wiki. Yes Saiya-jin is japanese for Saiyan. But should we use Krillin instead of Kuririn or Kulilin just because some company in america thought that it would appeal more to americans? If they changed Suzumiya Haruhi's name to something localized like Harriet Smith, would there be an redirect from Suzumiya Haruhi to an english wiki page titled as Harriet Smith or would there be a redirect to Suzumiya Haruhi's page? Master Roshi means Master Master. Should there be an article titled as Master Master? That's just stupid.

My 2-cents is, keep all proper names in Romanji with redirects from the English localized proper names (Nimbus -> Kinto Un, Master Roshi -> Muten Roshi, etc.) and change the raw Japanese names (Nameksei-jin -> Namekian, etc). This is a wiki about Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball, not FuNimation's Dragon Ball Z.

HuiJun 08:01, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

• Completly agree, actually some countrys, like Mexico, keep most of the original names; Saiya-jin, Nameksei-jin, Mr. Satan, etc

But trouble arises when we apply that rule to general references in the articles. The average English-speaking Dragon Ball fan is not going to know what an article is talking about when it says that "Gokū received the Kinto Un from Muten Rōshi in Doragon Buru".

While most of my friends call me Josh, I have no problem with my Spanish-speaking friends calling me Josué, and if (in some alternate reality) there ended up being an article about me in a Spanish wiki, I would have nothing against it being titled, Josué. Likewise, most English-speaking people don't seem to have a problem referring to Jesus as Jesus, rather than Yeshua or Yehohshua.

It's an English wiki, so if there is an accepted English translation to a name, it should be used, especially if that name is what will be most familiar to the average reader. (That's what the English translations are for after all.) Anyway, that's my opinion for article titles and general references. Naturally, any other names a person/object might have should redirect to that page, and be listed on their respective subject's page as well. -- nonoitall 07:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

But that's what I'm saying. It was never Akira Toriyama's intention for it to be called Doragon Buru. It was always Dragon Ball as it says in front of every Dragon Ball manga and anime ever created. Just like the names Bulma and Kulilin. But names have a very distinct meaning in his manga in that most of the characters are puns of food items. Take the name Puaru for instance. It means nothing because it's an english localization. But if it's Pu-erh, then it becomes a pun on Pu-erh Tea, just like Oolong and Oolong Tea. If you remove that, then you're removing a whole lot of the charm of Dragon Ball, as FuNimation has succeeded in doing. Josh and Josué don't have very big differences in meaning, but Launch and Lunch are worlds apart.

It would be fine if an article read that "Goku recieved the Kinto Un from Muten Roshi in Dragon Ball (not Doragon Buru)." as long as there are links to the names. Remember, there should also be redirects from the english localizations as well. Master Roshi (Master Master rofl) would lead to Muten Roshi and Flying Nimbus (wtf?) would lead to Kinto Un (which means Candy Cloud and is also the butt of a few jokes lost in the english localization (don't call it a translation cause that's far from what it is)).

HuiJun 10:07, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

I can see your point about the meanings of the names. Even so, my big concern is that it will make the wiki more difficult to understand and edit for people who aren't familiar with the 'proper' names. If a person has to do a bunch of research just to figure out what all the names on one article mean, it's going to make the articles less appealing, and even editors who know a lot about the show may have trouble contributing if they don't know what names to use. As long as all the names are described (along with a description of any relevant puns) on their subjects' pages, I don't see a problem with the common English titles being used.

Even though FUNimation's translations have admittedly been altered in some places, they are still the main ones responsible for bringing the Dragon Ball franchise to English-speaking areas. To some extent, there are four canons: The original Japanese manga, the Japanese anime, the English manga, and the English anime. Most of this site's visitors will probably be most familiar with the latter. My take on it: All four canons' names should be included, but not necessarily prominent unless it's what most readers will understand. We shouldn't force them to learn new names, but we can still give them the option. -- nonoitall 23:32, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I don't think people are so stupid that they would be so confused by Kulilin vs Krillin or even Puaru vs. Pu-erh. I think most people understand that Hercule is actually Mr.Satan. Secondly, I don't think contributors who only know the english version of the series should be contributing at all. Let me give you an example. In the english version of DBZ, Videl gets the idea that Goku has run away with another woman before she sees him at the Budokai. What? In the real version, Gohan concretely tells Videl that his father is dead. I don't accept the english version as canon, and I think that any real fan would feel the same. I don't think someone who can only understand the english version of the Bible should be responsible for editing the contents (although I know some do) or else we would be left with a Bible that does not convey the full meaning of the original text. I think that if we were to have a list of the japanese original names to use as a guide, the editors would not find it hard to make corrections in entries.

I understand your stand that most people visiting this site would be people more familiar with the FuNimation hack and slash. Unfortunately, it's been 12 years since the end of the original Dragon Ball while americans are just now watching it. However, I feel that it is the responsibility of a wiki to preserve the original view of the author and to correct those with incorrect perceptions of the works. Those people searching for "Krillin" would be presented a page with the main title of Kulilin. I feel the most correct method of naming is to use the japanese names with notes in the article about the english localization. If they don't understand the actual names, now would be a good time to expose and familiarize them to them and introduce yet another charm of the Dragon Ball saga.

I remember there was a discussion on Wikipedia on Japanese Dragon Ball vs. FuNimation DBZ and naming as well as episode titles in their articles. Unfortunately they ommitted all Japanese names from their articles and only included them in AKAs. Their reasoning was that the Wikipedia site was not a 'fan' site and most people going there are only after basic information. Well, I think this IS a 'fan' site, and should be as correct as possible. If we don't, then this would not be any better than finding information on Wikipedia.

HuiJun 19:54, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree, names like Kulilin and Puaru are fairly no-brainers. But what about names like Kinto Un, Kaiōshin, Seru, Jinzōningen, Genki Dama, Kita no Kaiō and Gyūmaō? (To name a few.) I honestly can't see a typical English-speaking Dragon Ball fan reading an article with those names in it and comprehending it without doing a lot of extra research. And speaking honestly for myself, I certainly don't know enough about the Romanji names to continue editing articles if those names are to be used. (Heck, I can't even type those names, let alone edit articles where they're heavily used.) I'm sure many other editors are in the same predicament. And if we really do force ourselves to go strictly with Akira Toriyama's Dragon Ball, then that would mean that the Garlic Jr. Saga and Dragon Ball GT (among other things) deserve nothing more than a passing mention.

I very much agree that the original canon (all canons, actually) should be covered entirely. It's just a matter of where it's done. As far as Wikipedia goes, I think we could go with the Harmony Gold dub names and still end up with better articles than they have, so whatever we do, I don't think we have to worry about that. :-D -- nonoitall 23:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Another thing I was thinking about is that using Romanji names doesn't necessarily help to preserve the original meaning of the names. For example, "Kuririn" isn't going to make me think of Chestnuts any more than "Krillin" is. "Chaozu" won't bring the Chinese food, jiaozi, to mind any better than "Chiaotzu" will. "Muten Roshi" is actually going to make it harder for me to understand that "Master Roshi" is a martial arts master. So using direct Romanji isn't necessarily going to preserve the meaning of the names, and in some cases could actually obfuscate it. -- nonoitall 23:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

First I'd like to point out that Seru is actually Cell. Since the japanese language is limited, they pronounce Cell as Seru. Secondly, Jinzoningen would fall under the same category as Saiya-jin; Artificial Human, just as Saiya-jin should be changed to Saiyan.

Although I wouldn't mind passing mention of the Garlic Saga and Dragon Ball GT, Akira Toriyama did actually have some supervision over those productions.

Honestly, it doesn't matter if the names don't make you think of the things they were intended to make you think. What matters is that they were the original, AKA real, names. If you're just going to use FuNimation names, just because it's more popular to english speakers and you're afraid people who want to learn more about Dragon Ball would actually have to learn more about Dragon Ball, then we might as well call this whole wiki FuNimation's Dragon Ball, not the misleading title of Dragon Ball Wiki.

My belief, and I'm sure this is your belief as well, is that this should be an authoritative guide on the world of Dragon Ball. We should do it right, not do it conveniently.

HuiJun 06:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, previously you had said:

But if it's Pu-erh, then it becomes a pun on Pu-erh Tea, just like Oolong and Oolong Tea. If you remove that, then you're removing a whole lot of the charm of Dragon Ball, as FuNimation has succeeded in doing. Josh and Josué don't have very big differences in meaning, but Launch and Lunch are worlds apart.

And then in your recent post you said:

Honestly, it doesn't matter if the names don't make you think of the things they were intended to make you think.

What about the charm you had mentioned before? If we use Muten Roshi instead of Master Roshi, or Uranai Baba instead of Fortuneteller Baba, we'll be obscuring the names' meanings, which would also remove that charm. It seems like six of one, half a dozen of another to me, at least when it comes to preserving the original names and their charm. And if that's the case, then we may as well use the one that people will know. If they want to learn the other names, we should make it easy, but not mandatory. -- nonoitall 07:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

My comment about "it doesn't matter if the names don't make you think of the things they were intended to make you think was directed at YOU, Nonoitall, just like the rest of the quote, "you're afraid people who want to learn more about Dragon Ball would actually have to learn more about Dragon Ball, then we might as well call this whole wiki FuNimation's Dragon Ball, not the misleading title of Dragon Ball Wiki". My whole point is that the names are SUPPOSED to be what Akira Toriyama had wanted them to be. Let me give you an example from my subbing. I use Uranai Baba instead of Fortuneteller Baba, but in the first time Uranai is mentioned, I have a note on top that says, "Uranai = Fortuneteller". I don't understand what is so hard about putting characters REAL names on the title and in the content of the pages and having their FuNimation false names in a note on the page. If you're going to keep their FuNimation names, just change the title to "FuNimation's Dragon Ball Z" so that I can start a REAL Dragon Ball wiki.

My belief is that this should be an authoritative guide on the world of Dragon Ball. We should do it right, not do it conveniently.

HuiJun 08:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

But if we have to mention the English anime name on every page in addition to the Romanji name anyway, what's the point? That just makes the articles even harder to edit, because now the editors have to know both sets of names instead of just one. And I think I'm probably not the only person who wouldn't immediately think of Chestnuts upon hearing the name Kuririn, so no need to single me out...

I have nothing against people learning about Dragon Ball at all - that's what this site is for. I just don't think having a bunch of unfamiliar names everywhere is going to make it easier for people to learn about it. Bare in mind that the English anime names aren't unique to FUNimation - other dubs use them as well.

There's also the point that names like "Krillin" are phonetically more accurate than names like "Kuririn" or "Kulilin". If one was to pronounce either Romanji name with English phonetics (since they use English characters), it would sound nothing like the original Japanese pronunciation of the name. But "Krillin" actually sounds very similar to the original name. This holds true for many English anime names. Akira Toriyama didn't write the manga in Romanji; he wrote it in Japanese. Any divergence from that is going to disrupt the originality somewhat. I honestly don't feel the English anime names disrupt this any more than the Romanji names. As I've already highlighted, there are plenty of cases where the English names preserve the original meaning or pronunciation better than the Romanji ones. -- nonoitall 21:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

• No, I think HuiJin is right. I watched DBZ on cartoon network so I know the English names and all but I think this page should be the original names not the cartoon network names. I think nonoitall is just arguing cause he already changed most of the wikia on his own and doesn't want to have to change them all again. It looks to me that most of the people here want the Japanese names too. I dunno.

As you can see, not counting all the unnamed votes, most people clearly want Japanese names. At the very least, there shouldn't be a page named "Hercule". I have explained my views and refuted your excuses as to why you should not use FuNimation names in the titles. What other dubs of Dragon Ball Z are there that others would know? This site has turned into FuNimation's Dragon Ball Z. There is no clear reason why you should or should not use either names. In the end, it's just come down to what Nonoitall wants.

HuiJun 22:30, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Umm... you yourself are responsible for that "annonymous" comment. This page's history plainly shows that you are the only one who commented since my last post. -- nonoitall 22:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In response to your post(s), I only began changing names when I saw that this page had become inactive (with the consensus leaning toward English anime names), and when other users had already begun executing the transition. The Ocean and Blue Water dubs of DBZ and DBGT, respectively, also use the English anime names. They are a bit more prominent in the UK, but have aired in the US as well. Attempting to change consensus by making yourself seem like more than one person is not going to work. Consensus is established by reasoning, not votes. -- nonoitall 22:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry if it wasn't clear to you that I was making a point that replies with no ID attached should not be counted. That "consensus" could very well be just yourself. Even if you count them it seemed pretty dead-locked and when you discount them, it's obvious more people would like the japanese names. From my point of view, the consensus leans towards the real names of the characters.

And about your statement about this page becoming "inactive".

If we're in agreement I'd like to update Forum:Manual of Style to reflect the new decision here. Any objections? -- nonoitall 02:10, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont agree, see even though youre right about people not knowing the correct names, then maybe we should teach them the correct names, the anime isn't canon, I think everyone should know the correct canon names, and information.

LOL? Then you go on to just make the decision yourself:

I certainly that the original names should be retained on their subjects' articles. But it seems to make more sense to use the English anime names for general references and article names. For example, the article named "Krillin" lists his other names as well. This has the benefit of being easily understood by the majority of readers, and also educates anyone interested about the original names. Otherwise, like was said above, Dragon Ball Z would have to be referred to as Doragon Buru Zetto (or, even more ridiculously, ドラゴンボールぜっと). My opinion is that Japanese wiki's can use Japanese names, and English wiki's can use English names. Both can list alternate names in the appropraite place. -- nonoitall 09:36, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Notice the dates. If you consider 4 days as inactive, then I have no idea what to say. Anyways, you've just done, whatever you wanted to do, so it seems there is no point in reasoning anymore. I've given you more than enough reasons and rebuked every one of your excuses (for the most part being, "drr, peoples who sees dub anime dunno wut yur talkin aboot").

HuiJun 00:55, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't make any decision myself. If you'll look, because of the lingering controversy here, I have refrained from updating Forum:Manual of Style. The topic was quiet for weeks before I suggested that though, and the edit war notice was removed, hence my saying the topic had become inactive. In the meantime, many users began transitioning the articles that used Romanji, and I helped so that we could get the wiki consistent as quickly as possible.

And if you were trying to make a point that replies with no ID should be ignored (which is not necessarily the case) why did you try to use that "anonymous" comment to validate your stand on the issue? In any case, we should be discussing pertinent merits to the various naming schemes, not making off-topic demonstrations. You've explained your point of view, and I've been trying to explain mine to you and why I don't feel the Romanji would work. (We had been having a good discussion.) But now, rather than discuss the relevant topic anymore, you seem more interested in attacking my reputation and trying to make it appear as though I am a lone user trying to take over the wiki. If you or anyone else has a response to my latest defense of the English anime names, I'm all ears. If not, can we move on? -- nonoitall 04:09, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Discussion? I've been giving reasons as to why japanese names should be used and all you've done is retort with the same thing over and over again stated differently.

Merits of using original names:

1. It preserves the original intentions of the author.

2. It preserves original content of the anime.

3. It familiarizes FuNimation watchers to the real names.

4. It uses the REAL names.

5. It presents the wiki as geared away from the dub hack.

Demerits of using original names:

1. FuNimation watchers don't know them and don't understand them.

Merits of using FuNimation names:

1. FuNimation watchers know them and there's nothing more to understand.

Demerits of using FuNimation names:

1. It changes the original intentions of the author.

2. It changes the original content of the anime.

3. People come to think that FuNimation names are correct.

4. It uses FAKE names.

5. It presents the wiki as geared towards the dub hack.

The truth is, people who watch the FuNimation version is a very very small percentage of people who are Dragon Ball Z fans. This anime ended over 12 years ago. It hasn't even ended in english dub, from what I can see about dvd releases. It's a disgrace to cater to people who have been fans for a whole 6 years and spit on those who have been fans for the last 22 years. I remember going crazy every week as a kid when a new Dragon Ball episode came out. I remember going nuts when my friends and I found out that you could play Super Botuden 2 if you took the board out of the cartridge and just plug it into our Super Nintendo. I remember how disgusted we were at GT, yet we still forced ourselves to watch. If we decide to use the FuNimation names to title the pages, the only difference from Wikipedia is that there's more content in these pages. The hearts of the real fans will have been completely lost.

Why should I have to go to a page titled "HERCULE" to read about Mr. Satan?

HuiJun 00:22, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

This is an English Website, so why should we conform to the rest of the worlds way of seeing things? This is a wiki, there should be other languages of this. Now, if you too want to get specific; Super Nintendo should be Super Famicon, should it not? Or Sega Genesis should then be titled Sega MegaDrive, simply because other countries besides the United States uses them? The language in the show in English is translated so it makes more sense in English. This is an English page, and is ment to display information on the English Dragon Ball Z.

I've given many reasons why the English anime names are a reasonable choice. I'm trying to be open-minded to your reasoning, but when you completely ignore mine it makes it difficult. In response to your original names merits:

1. Akira Toriyama did not write the series in Romanji; he wrote it in Japanese. Romanji only preserves the original phonetics of the names, and it only does that if the reader knows how to properly pronounce Romanji. Otherwise, the English anime names often will better represent the original names' pronunciations and their meanings.

2. How do Romanji names preserve the original content of the anime any better than English names?

3. Using the English anime names is not going to stop people from learning about other names - if they want to learn those names, they'd still be included on their subjects' pages.

4. The Romanji names are no more "real" than the English anime names. The only truly original names are the Japanese names, and I think you'll agree that it's out of the question to use those here.

5. The English anime names have been accepted by all the major English anime dubs of the series, so calling it a singular "dub hack" is inaccurate. It is the primary way that Dragon Ball appears in English-speaking countries.

I agree with your demerits and merits for Romanji and English anime names, respectively, though you've kind of ignored most of the points that I brought out. In response to your demerits of the English anime names (which you inaccurately associated solely with FUNimation):

1. In some cases, yes. In many cases, no. "Master Roshi" certainly conveys the idea that he is a martial arts master to an English-speaking person better than "Muten Roshi". "Fortuneteller Baba" better signifies that she is a fortuneteller than "Uranai Baba". "King Kai" better demonstrates his position of authority than "Kita no Kaiō". The list goes on and on and on.

2. Same as above.

3. This is the third time I've had to say this: The English anime names are not unique to FUNimation. And why aren't English anime names correct? As I just demonstrated, they can convey the original meaning more accurately than Romanji in, what I would guess to be, a majority of instances.

4. What about them makes them fake?

5. Same as above. (Previous section 5.)

Your comment about most English anime viewers making up a small percentage of Dragon Ball fans is pretty shaky. (Once again, FUNimation is not the only English dub.) If you're including all fans worldwide, it may be true, but if you're talking about English-speaking fans, which are the ones we're concerned with here, it's definitely not. There are a relative few who have read the English manga, and another few who have watched the Japanese anime with subtitles, but the vast majority of those fans only know about Dragon Ball because they have watched the English anime.

No offense intended, but you obviously aren't too familiar with the English dub. The entire series dub was completed over five years ago, and the most recent releases are just remastered boxsets. While I respect your background as a fan, we have to take into account that the English anime is the reason that Dragon Ball has become popular in English-speaking territories. The fans who learned about Dragon Ball that way are no less "real" than any other fan, and it is undoubtedly because of them that much of the content on this site even exists.

Why should fans have to go to a page titled, "Higashi no Kaiōshin" to read about Supreme Kai? ;-)

(Actually in the English anime, Mr. Satan is still referred to most of the time as Mr. Satan, so the page may end up staying Mr. Satan.) And keep in mind that it's not like information will be lost if we go with the English anime - all the names will still be there. The wiki wouldn't be encyclopedic otherwise.

There is actually only one page dedicated to the Dragon Ball series over at Wikipedia now, with the exception of a few character pages and episode lists, so even as inconsistent as this site may be right now, it's still worlds better than that. There are admittedly trade-offs with both sets of names, but because of the points I've discussed, I can honestly say that the English anime names seem like the most reasonable choice for article names and references. -- nonoitall 05:09, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

The FuNimation names are fake. Even with your "Master Roshi", they completely changed his name from "Master Muten" to "Master Master". Aside from that, they completely removed the Muten Roti pun. Lunch (Launch), Pu-erh (Puaru), Kinto Un (Flying Nimbus), have all been hacked away as well, as I have previously mentioned. And just for your information, Kita no Kiao is just his name with full title and he is RARELY ever called as such. Same as with Higashi no Kiaoshin. These are things that people who have not seen the original anime would not understand.

Just because YOU watch dubbed anime, doesn't mean that MOST people watch it. In fact, I know 20 times the amount of people that have seen the japanese version with subtitles than people who have stood through the horrendous dubbed version. And you're right, I don't know much about dubbed anime, since it fails so much. Why watch something that has been hacked and cut and changed when you can watch the original fully translated version? You wouldn't know Uranai Baba is actually Gyumao's mother, making her Goku's grandmother-in-law unless you have seen the original version. And in case you didn't know, there have been fan-subbed episodes of Dragon Ball since the start of the series.

And apparently the last episode of GT aired in 2005. Not quite the 5 years that you had stated is it? And how many english speaking people, do you think started becoming fans during the near decade between the original episodes and dubs? Do you think FuNimation just bought the rights for the hell of it? Let me tell you, unless they see that an anime has a significant fan-base already established in an english speaking populace, they won't even bother. I guarantee you more people have seen the original version than those who have only seen the dub hacks.

Anyways, this problem will most likely never be solved between someone who has only mostly the subbed version and someone who has only seen the dub hack.

I'll say it again, It's a disgrace to cater to people who have been fans for a whole 6 years and spit on those who have been fans for the last 22 years.

HuiJun 07:35, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the above statement "It's a disgrace to cater to people who have been fans for a whole 6 years and spit on those who have been fans for the last 22 years." sums up that all of Huijins input has been swayed by biased opinion. I think it is important not to let personal connections to the show cloud logicial judgement.

The bottom line is, it would make no sense to use the Japanese names. Why? Because ~90% of english speaking people cannot read Hiragana, and anything else would just be an approximation. Which isn't good enough. Why bother calling Vegeta "Bejiita" when even the Japanese label him as Vegeta?? I am all for including the romanji interpretations under "alternate names" but no more than that.

Allow me to give a decent example as to how petty this nonsense is. Look on any Japanese wiki, here is an example from the Japanese wikipedia, a page on "Iron Man" http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Man . Notice how they spell Iron Man: "Aian Man", why? Because it makes sense in their language! You don't see anyone there complaining that it "isn't true to the source material" or that poor old Marvel's original intentions are being pissed on.

Ours is an english language wiki and so we should use the names the majority of english speaking dragonball fans are familiar with, and that is those of the funimation dub.

Legasafe 10:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Thoughts from a Fansubber (continued)

I made a new section to continue the discussion since the old section was getting a little crowded and messy. :-P

I'm going to quote you quite a few times, HuiJun. I'm not trying to attack your opinion (which you are completely entitled to); I'm just trying to address a few more of your concerns.

Quote: The FuNimation names are fake. Even with your "Master Roshi", they completely changed his name from "Master Muten" to "Master Master".

The English anime didn't change his name to "Master Master". They call him "Master Roshi". And once again; they aren't FUNimation names; they're English anime names.

Quote: Aside from that, they completely removed the Muten Roti pun. Lunch (Launch), Pu-erh (Puaru), Kinto Un (Flying Nimbus), have all been hacked away as well, as I have previously mentioned.

Aside from "Lunch" none of those names seem to bring any puns to mind better or worse than their counterparts. But if we go with your Romanji rule, we can't use "Lunch" anyway - we'd have to use "Ranchi". Even if we could keep "Lunch" though, it seems like there would be very few names that would be more understandable, and very many that would be harder to understand. (Like Muten Roshi, Uranai Baba, etc.)

Quote: And just for your information, Kita no Kiao is just his name with full title and he is RARELY ever called as such. Same as with Higashi no Kiaoshin. These are things that people who have not seen the original anime would not understand.

This highlights one of the big reasons Romanji names would cause problems. As you said, people who have not seen the Japanese anime will not understand. And why would someone who knew enough Japanese to understand the Japanese anime be visiting an English wiki on the subject in the first place? This wiki is for English-speaking people, and will naturally attract people who are more familiar with the English anime - the very people who you said won't understand the Romanji names.

Quote: Just because YOU watch dubbed anime, doesn't mean that MOST people watch it. In fact, I know 20 times the amount of people that have seen the japanese version with subtitles than people who have stood through the horrendous dubbed version.

I didn't say most people watch the English anime; I said most English-speaking fans of Dragon Ball became fans because of it. If you have a reputable source for your "20 times" statistics, I'd love to read it. If not, that sounds like a very unrealistic figure.

Quote: Why watch something that has been hacked and cut and changed when you can watch the original fully translated version? You wouldn't know Uranai Baba is actually Gyumao's mother, making her Goku's grandmother-in-law unless you have seen the original version. And in case you didn't know, there have been fan-subbed episodes of Dragon Ball since the start of the series.

I can't really see how your point about Baba has anything to do with the naming scheme - it seems to deal more with the canonicity of the plot. Dragon Ball's popularity in English-speaking countries only exploded when the English anime began broadcasting. I'm aware there were fan-subs before the anime aired - are you suggesting we use them and change this into the "Fan-Subbed Dragon Ball Wiki"? That seems even worse than your exaggerated "FUNimation Dragon Ball Wiki" would be.

Quote: And apparently the last episode of GT aired in 2005. Not quite the 5 years that you had stated is it? And how many english speaking people, do you think started becoming fans during the near decade between the original episodes and dubs? Do you think FuNimation just bought the rights for the hell of it? Let me tell you, unless they see that an anime has a significant fan-base already established in an english speaking populace, they won't even bother. I guarantee you more people have seen the original version than those who have only seen the dub hacks.

I was referring to what I thought you meant by the series. (Since Dragon Ball GT wasn't part of Akira Toriyama's original canon, I didn't include it. I thought you had said you were okay with GT receiving only a passing mention, but maybe I was mistaken.) But, yes if you include GT, it finished airing only three years ago, which is still a far cry from the English dub not having ended like you had said before.

And FUNimation didn't do the initial English anime dub of the show - Pioneer/Ocean group did. FUNimation didn't have the resources to devote to doing a dub themselves. When the Ocean dub started to generate interest though, FUNimation took over the dubbing themselves. It was a gamble that paid off.

Quote: I'll say it again, It's a disgrace to cater to people who have been fans for a whole 6 years and spit on those who have been fans for the last 22 years.

Is it less disgraceful to cater to the relatively few fans who are more familiar with Romanji, and "spit on" the millions who know only the English anime? I'd hardly say it's spitting on them though.

Like Legasafe pointed out, the policy on other wiki's is to use what's familiar. We're not going to achieve perfection here unless we turn this into a Japanese wiki. Any other naming scheme, English anime or Romanji, is going to cause some change to the original idea - it can't be helped. That in mind, the English anime names don't seem less understandable or accurate than Romanji (they actually seem more accurate in most instances given the points I brought out above) and so, I continue to feel that they are the prudent choice. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't. -- nonoitall 10:40, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow. You guys have made it perfectly clear that you know next to nothing about the japanese, japanese culture, and the japanese language. I seriously doubt you have seen any other anime series besides the dubbed dragon ball z series.

First of all, to Legosafe. It's not "Ranchi", it's Lunch. The japanese language is such that vowels and consonants are one letter. For example, "Ran" and "Chi" are 2 characters. They cannot say the "ch" without the "i" at the end, since they have no characters to. "Ran" is also the closest they can get to "Lun". Of course, since you have no idea of this simple fact, it's only obvious you would make the noob mistake of thinking her name is Ranchi. Secondly, yes, that is pronounced Aian Man because that is how you spell Iron Man in japanese. Kinda of like how you spell Lunch as "Ranchi" in japanese. Get it?

And to Nonoitall. Unless you actually watch japanese anime in it's original language and talk to the thousands of americans who do the same on a daily basis, you'll continue thinking that most people watch the dubs as you do. What's "familiar" to you is not necessarily "familiar" to most people, as I've been trying to tell you, but you seem to keep thinking that the majority of english speaking people watch their anime on Cartoon Network.

I bet if the majority of people mistakenly thought President Bush was a good president, you would think that the right course of action would be to continue to propagate that false idea, since it's what the majority thinks and is comfortable with.

Yes, "Master Master" and Fortuneteller Baba are the only 2 instances that reflect the characters better in english. But Muten Roshi and Uranai Baba still sound much better. Every other real name both sound better and retain the original content the best. But think about this as well. Akira Toriyama could have easily named Muten Roshi, Muten Sensei, which actually would have made it clearer even in japanese that he is a master, but he didn't. He wanted a pun on Muten Roti, which is Muten Roti even in english, and is about as popular in america as it is in japan (meaning, not very). The fact is, many of the food puns are not obvious to japanese people either (Chaozu is actually CHINESE for "Gyoza" the japanese word for dumpling coverings), but the author made it that way nonetheless. And we should respect the authors wishes as close as possible, ESPECIALLY on a fan page.

Have fun making this the extended Wikipedia article.

HuiJun 19:46, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Let's please keep this conversation civil and refrain from name-calling, okay? I don't know why you're getting on Legasafe's case about "Ranchi" - I was the one who brought out that point. Romanji is basically the use of the Latin alphabet to write Japanese words. As you said closest Latin equivalent for ランチ is "Ranchi" - making it the Romanji rendering of the word. "Lunch" is a literal translation of that word's meaning, which does not qualify as Romanji. Even if "Lunch" were considered to be the Romanji name, it would be one of the few names that is more understandable, rather than less understandable, as I brought out above.

Quote: Unless you actually watch japanese anime in it's original language and talk to the thousands of americans who do the same on a daily basis, you'll continue thinking that most people watch the dubs as you do. What's "familiar" to you is not necessarily "familiar" to most people, as I've been trying to tell you, but you seem to keep thinking that the majority of english speaking people watch their anime on Cartoon Network.

You are ignoring your own logic. Unless you actually talk to the tens of millions of English-speakers who watch the English anime on a daily basis, you'll (apparently) continue thinking that most people watch the Japanese anime as you do. What's familiar to you is not necessarily familiar to most people, as I've been trying to tell you, but you seem to keep thinking that the majority of English-speaking people are more familiar with the Japanese anime than the English one.

See my point?

Quote: Yes, "Master Master" and Fortuneteller Baba are the only 2 instances that reflect the characters better in english. But Muten Roshi and Uranai Baba still sound much better. Every other real name both sound better and retain the original content the best. But think about this as well. Akira Toriyama could have easily named Muten Roshi, Muten Sensei, which actually would have made it clearer even in japanese that he is a master, but he didn't. He wanted a pun on Muten Roti, which is Muten Roti even in english, and is about as popular in america as it is in japan (meaning, not very). The fact is, many of the food puns are not obvious to japanese people either (Chaozu is actually CHINESE for "Gyoza" the japanese word for dumpling coverings), but the author made it that way nonetheless. And we should respect the authors wishes as close as possible, ESPECIALLY on a fan page.

Those aren't the only two instances. They aren't even the only two instances that I pointed out. Your assertion that the Romanji names sound better is your own opinion, and while you're entitled to it, your assumption that the majority share it is not well founded. And once again, the English anime names are no less "real" than the Romanji names. Romanji is meant to preserve phonetics, not meaning.

I fail to see how the Romanji names are closer to the author's original intent than the English anime names. Neither "Krillin" or "Kuririn" are going to bring chestnuts to an English-speaking fan's mind. Same with "Chiaotzu", "Chaozu" and jiaozi. Same with "Bulma", "Buruma" and bloomers. Same with "Yamcha", "Yamucha" and tea-drinking. Like I already brought out, names like "Master Roshi", "Fortuneteller Baba", "King Kai" and "Supreme Kai" all will be more understandable to English-speaking person than their Romanji counterparts.

Quote: Have fun making this the extended Wikipedia article.

Would you rather these be the extended Wikipedia articles, or the extended Uikipedeia articles? -- nonoitall 21:02, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Wow thanks for deleting content in my post yet quoting it in your own post. Fail.

Quote: Let's please keep this conversation civil and refrain from name-calling, okay?

Where exactly do you see me call ANYONE any names? Did you even read any of my post AT ALL? Did you totally miss my whole explaination of the japanese language, which you have absolutely no idea about? Did you even see my statement about how, EVEN IN JAPAN THE PUNS ARE NOT OBVIOUS? Contrary to your belief that all asian languages are the same, CHINESE and JAPANESE are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Knowing one language does not mean that you can understand the other. It's kinda like how just because you speak english, that doesn't mean you understand german. Get it?

Knowing that here is my quote again. This time don't delete it from my post.

Quote: Yes, "Master Master" and Fortuneteller Baba are the only 2 instances that reflect the characters better in english. But Muten Roshi and Uranai Baba still sound much better. Every other real name both sound better and retain the original content the best. But think about this as well. Akira Toriyama could have easily named Muten Roshi, Muten Sensei, which actually would have made it clearer even in japanese that he is a master, but he didn't. He wanted a pun on Muten Roti, which is Muten Roti even in english, and is about as popular in america as it is in japan (meaning, not very). The fact is, many of the food puns are not obvious to japanese people either (Chaozu is actually CHINESE for "Gyoza" the japanese word for dumpling coverings), but the author made it that way nonetheless. And we should respect the authors wishes as close as possible, ESPECIALLY on a fan page.

Having a conversation with you is, like it is with most americans, like talking to a brick wall. You can't seem to hear anyone else over the sound of how awesome you are.

Quote: Those aren't the only two instances. They aren't even the only two instances that I pointed out.

Really? Did you even read any of what I said about "Master Roshi" and "Fortuneteller Baba"? Apparently not, read it again in my quote above.

Unfortunately for you, I do talk to people who watched Dragon Ball Z. Of course, there aren't any I can think of who have seen both versions and choose the FuNimation version over the Original. Millions? LOLOLOLOL. Yes, many people saw the english version first, but once they thought most of the conversation didn't make any sense, they usually went to see the original. I have no idea why you think the english dub is so popular. If you consider the fact that the japanese version is 10 years older than the english, it's amazing that such a huge fan base of english speakers who prefer the japanese version exist. Most of the rest seem to not be able to get their hands on it, or don't know any better and think that the english version is the original.

And for the last time, here are some of the names from the original japanese anime, as advertised in english in japan, since you seem to have no clue about them.

1. Bulma

2. Kulilin

3. Chaozu

4. Yamucha

5. Kaio

6. Son Goku

7. Muten Roshi

8. Uranai Baba

9. Gyumao

10. Chichi

11. Pu-erh

12. Oolong

13. Vegeta

14. Son Gohan

15. Nappa

16. Freeza

17. Dr. Gero

18. Mr. Satan

19. Videl

20. Trunks

21. Pan

22. Kami

23. Piccolo

24. Brolly

25. Artificial Human #18

26. Maron

27. Tao Pai Pai

28. Mutaito

29. Yajirobe

HuiJun 00:38, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

I apologize for removing part of your post. Apparently you continued adding to your comment after I began writing mine and the addition got lost when I posted. I have restored the missing section.

Quote: Where exactly do you see me call ANYONE any names? Did you even read any of my post AT ALL?

You called Legasafe a noob in your previous comment.

Quote: Contrary to your belief that all asian languages are the same, CHINESE and JAPANESE are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. Knowing one language does not mean that you can understand the other. It's kinda like how just because you speak english, that doesn't mean you understand german. Get it?

Where exactly did I claim that Japanese and Chinese were the same?

Quote: Having a conversation with you is, like it is with most americans, like talking to a brick wall. You can't seem to hear anyone else over the sound of how awesome you are.

This is not the place for prejudice and stereotypes. You haven't been particularly open-minded to the opposing point of view yourself.

Quote: Really? Did you even read any of what I said about "Master Roshi" and "Fortuneteller Baba"? Apparently not, read it again in my quote above.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. I said that I had pointed out more than two examples, and then you tell me to read your quote about Roshi and Baba.

Quote: Unfortunately for you, I do talk to people who watched Dragon Ball Z. Of course, there aren't any I can think of who have seen both versions and choose the FuNimation version over the Original.

Your acquaintances are entitled to their opinions as well, but bare in mind that most English-speaking fans have not seen both English and Japanese versions. I'll remind you once again, that FUNimation's is not the only dub that uses English anime naming.

Quote: Millions? LOLOLOLOL. Yes, many people saw the english version first, but once they thought most of the conversation didn't make any sense, they usually went to see the original. I have no idea why you think the english dub is so popular. If you consider the fact that the japanese version is 10 years older than the english, it's amazing that such a huge fan base of english speakers who prefer the japanese version exist. Most of the rest seem to not be able to get their hands on it, or don't know any better and think that the english version is the original.

A couple years ago, it was estimated that Dragon Ball Z had approximately 60-65 million viewers in the US alone. (And that was for the English broadcast of the anime.) Would you be willing to share your source that indicates that a majority of them (who don't even speak Japanese) actually prefer the Japanese anime over the English one?

I didn't quite understand what the point of your list was. Many of the names on it did not follow your Romanji naming scheme, and the ones that were different from the English anime don't seem particularly more meaningful. Most seem less meaningful.

I'm more than willing to continue discussing the matter, but your tone is becoming increasingly hostile (all caps are an indication of yelling) and is not conducive to an amicable resolution of this issue. -- nonoitall 04:31, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

Jesus.

Quote I apologize for removing part of your post. Apparently you continued adding to your comment after I began writing mine and the addition got lost when I posted. I have restored the missing section.

lol, that excuse makes no sense seeing as how my full comment actually ended up as a quote in YOUR comment.

Quote You called Legasafe a noob in your previous comment.

Where? Here is my quote apart from all the, apparently, confusing text around it.

Quote Of course, since you have no idea of this simple fact, it's only obvious you would make the noob mistake of thinking her name is Ranchi.

In all my years of speaking english, I never thought that pointing out someone made a noob mistake qualified as actually calling someone a noob.

Quote Where exactly did I claim that Japanese and Chinese were the same?

When you said this.

Quote Same with "Chiaotzu", "Chaozu" and jiaozi. Same with "Bulma", "Buruma" and bloomers. Same with "Yamcha", "Yamucha" and tea-drinking.

Which led me to believe that you considered this comment

Quote The fact is, many of the food puns are not obvious to japanese people either (Chaozu is actually CHINESE for "Gyoza" the japanese word for dumpling coverings), but the author made it that way nonetheless.

as meaning japanese people actually understood chinese.

Quote I'm not really sure what you're getting at here. I said that I had pointed out more than two examples, and then you tell me to read your quote about Roshi and Baba.

Ok, so the whole four that you pointed out. 2 being Kaio ranking.

Quote A couple years ago, it was estimated that Dragon Ball Z had approximately 60-65 million viewers in the US alone. (And that was for the English broadcast of the anime.) Would you be willing to share your source that indicates that a majority of them (who don't even speak Japanese) actually prefer the Japanese anime over the English one?

Go to any DBZ IRC channel and tell them you prefer the english version and see what happens.

Quote I didn't quite understand what the point of your list was. Many of the names on it did not follow your Romanji naming scheme, and the ones that were different from the English anime don't seem particularly more meaningful. Most seem less meaningful.

Perhaps you should learn to read better.

Quote And for the last time, here are some of the names from the original japanese anime, as advertised in english in japan, since you seem to have no clue about them.

And finally,

Quote I'm more than willing to continue discussing the matter, but your tone is becoming increasingly hostile (all caps are an indication of yelling) and is not conducive to an amicable resolution of this issue.

No, you have never been willing to discuss this issue. All that has been going on is my numerous reasons for japanese names and your one justification for english names.

Reply

Please follow talk page etiquette when writing your responses. Assume good faith, be polite and save the personal attacks for another time and place. There's no need for profanity, and I think I've demonstrated an adequate ability to read. (Don't forget to sign your posts with four tildes as well - it's a good thing I'm not ignoring unnamed posts like you suggested we do. ;-))

Quote: lol, that excuse makes no sense seeing as how my full comment actually ended up as a quote in YOUR comment.

It makes perfect sense, considering I opened your revisions in a separate tab several minutes after I began writing my comment. (Scrolling back and forth was getting tedious.) I think the fact that I quoted your comment is a fair indication that I wasn't attempting to censor you, but I apologize again none-the-less.

Quote: In all my years of speaking english, I never thought that pointing out someone made a noob mistake qualified as actually calling someone a noob.

I stand corrected, but it was still a rather strong and unwarranted implication.

Quote: Which led me to believe that you considered this comment [Quote removed for brevity] as meaning japanese people actually understood chinese.

餃子 (Chiaotzu's Japanese name) was pun was on Jiaozi, a Chinese dumpling. So I called the food by its name, just like I called chestnuts by their name. It doesn't mean I think Chinese and Japanese are the same at all. Under English phonetics, "Chiaotzu" actually seems to preserve the original pronunciation of the word better, while neither name seems particularly better or worse at conveying the original meaning of the pun.

Quote: Ok, so the whole four that you pointed out. 2 being Kaio ranking.

What? I originally pointed out three examples (one being a Kai/Kaio) and then later pointed out eight examples (with one being a Kai/Kaio and another being a Supreme Kai/Kaioshin). I re-read what you said about Roshi and Baba once again, but your assertion that "Muten Roshi" sounds better than "Master Roshi" and "Uranai Baba" sounds better than "Fortuneteller Baba" is still just your opinion, and does not have much relevance to the situation. That's not to say you're not entitled to your opinion though - you are.

Quote: Go to any DBZ IRC channel and tell them you prefer the english version and see what happens.

I did so in four different channels no one seemed to care. Was something supposed to happen? In any case, I highly doubt that IRC channels contain an evenly distributed cross section of English-speaking Dragon Ball fans.

Quote: Perhaps you should learn to read better.

Please maintain civility. I honestly don't know what you're getting at with your list. If you're suggesting we use those advertised/garment names instead of Romanji, we're in for even more trouble. For one thing, the listing of those names is far from unabridged. Probably about 95% of the articles on the wiki would be left without a valid name. Second, under that rule, Mercenary Tao's article could just as easily end up being called "Kill You".

Quote: No, you have never been willing to discuss this issue. All that has been going on is my numerous reasons for japanese names and your one justification for english names.

If I was unwilling to discuss this issue, I wouldn't be replying to your comments. I am doing my best to listen to each of your concerns, but most of those concerns seem to be either already addressed, or based on your opinion and not a practical view of what will work optimally in an English wiki. You also have not been pushing for Japanese names; you have been pushing for Romanji names. There is a significant difference. (Though now you seem to be shifting to a different naming scheme based on garments (and other advertisements?), which seems even more precarious than Romanji titles.)

In conclusion, my stand has been and continues to be: Any naming scheme that uses the English alphabet is going to be an imperfect representation of the original Japanese. Overall, the English anime names seem to convey the original meaning somewhat better than other naming schemes. In addition, the English anime names will be the most familiar to English-speaking fans who visit this wiki. Is it perfect? No. Is it the closest and most understandable, consistent naming scheme that we're going to get without speaking Japanese? The presently available evidence indicates, yes.

This has become an very long-winded discussion and I feel I've more than adequately displayed the logic behind using the English anime names. If anyone has any further concerns that can't be addressed by quoting an already written part of this discussion, please bring them forward. If not, it would be wonderful if we could start working on improving the wiki again rather than wasting our time in a heated debate. -- nonoitall 07:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The japanese names help present the original content as intended by the author. You do not need to understand japanese to fully appreciate the puns by the original author. Many of the food puns are not obvious to japanese people themselves, but Akira Toriyama wanted them nonetheless. The english names tend to omit key aspects of most of the names they present (no last names, no food puns etc.). Another key aspect of utilizing the japanese names in the titles of the articles is that it helps to familiarize people to the actual names of the characters and move away from the Wikipedia mentality that the english names are the 'real' names. After all, in a fan site, it should be the goal to get as close to the original material as possible. So far, the only positive aspect of utilizing english names is that the people who only watch the english dub hack recognizes them easier.

In conclusion, my stand has been and continues to be: Any naming scheme that uses the English alphabet is going to be an imperfect representation of the original Japanese. Overall, the Japanese anime names seem to convey the original meaning somewhat better than other naming schemes. In addition, the Japanese anime names will be the most familiar to most fans who visit this wiki and display the original intent of the author. Is it perfect? No. Is it the closest and most understandable, consistent naming scheme that we're going to get without speaking Japanese? The presently available evidence indicates, yes.

This has become an very long-winded discussion and I feel I've more than adequately displayed the logic behind using the Japanese anime names. If anyone has any further concerns that can't be addressed by quoting an already written part of this discussion, please bring them forward. If not, it would be wonderful if we could start working on improving the wiki again rather than wasting our time in a heated debate.

HuiJun 18:06, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

First of all, I thank you very much for your civil comment. Even if we never see eye-to-eye, it's good that we can talk about the issue without biting each others' heads off.  :-)

I thought we had both agreed that Japanese names were out of the question since they don't use the English alphabet? It wouldn't make sense to have article names like 孫 悟空, ブルマ and クリリン on an English wiki. If you meant the Romanji names, those aren't the same as Japanese names. Like I said before, Romanji is designed to preserve pronunciation, not meaning. And it can only preserve pronunciation if the reader knows how to pronounce Romanji. -- nonoitall 21:29, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

When will you realize that they spelt the japanese names in english on merchandising, such as toys and games, as well as in the anime itself.

HuiJun 01:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I acknowledged that in my previous posts, but like I said:

Quote: If you're suggesting we use those advertised/garment names instead of Romanji, we're in for even more trouble. For one thing, the listing of those names is far from unabridged. Probably about 95% of the articles on the wiki would be left without a valid name. Second, under that rule, Mercenary Tao's article could just as easily end up being called "Kill You".

-- nonoitall 02:20, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

No his name is Tao Pai Pai in japanese and english. 95% huh. lol. Obviously, you don't know just how many toys and games there were.

HuiJun 15:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

His name in Japanese isn't Tao Pai Pai; it's 桃白白. "Kill You" was written on his clothing in the anime (and presumably the manga as well, though I haven't read that part), and I was trying to make a point that under that naming scheme, we could actually end up with titles that aren't a character's intended name at all. And you're right; I don't know how many Romanized names are given on garments and other advertisements. Are there enough listed to name even half of the 1,286 articles on the wiki? Even if there are, you stated that some of those names come from games and toys. That being the case, how can we be sure that Akira Toriyama was even involved in their selection? -- nonoitall 22:11, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My thoughts

I have to say that I honestly prefer the original Japanese names. I don't like Mr. Satan being called "Hercule" at all, but I can accept it.

That being said, I believe we should go by the English Manga names. Though the later reissues are censored and the DBZ part of the manga has always been censored, it is fairly faithful to the manga. FUNimation's dub of the anime, aside from the re-dubs of seasons 1 & 2 and later movie dubs (which even then had obscurities and inaccuracies), has not been too faithful in being a good dub of the series. And by "good dub", I mean "accurate to the original" dub. Mr. Satan would still be called "Hercule", but that's pretty minor compared the rest of the cast. The dub is more popular than the English manga, but honestly, I think to use that excuse would be like using an excuse of changing the name of the Deathstroke article on Wikipedia to "Slade (Teen Titans)" due to his appearance in the popular, yet also different in many ways to its original source material, Teen Titans animated series.--Mr. Satran 17:34, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Also, as for non-canon characters, I guess go by the anime dub names, as they don't appear in the manga obviously.--Mr. Satran 17:48, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

That's an interesting proposition. From what I've read of the English manga, I would agree that the English manga names tend to be slightly truer to the original manga than the anime. Don't think I'm jumping on you here with my next paragraph, because that's not my intention - I do agree with what you said.

The argument was made before that this is primarily a Dragon Ball anime site (since we cover things like Dragon Ball GT, the Garlic Jr. Saga, and many other things that weren't in the manga). That said, it was considered more logical to go with names from one of the animes (either English or Romanized Japanese). What's you're opinion of this? (Just as a side note, the name "Mr. Satan" is actually used very prominently in the English anime, much more than "Hercule". So, under the English anime names, "Mr. Satan" would most likely continue to be his title, unlike under the English manga. Like you said, we shouldn't make this decision based on one name, but I thought that was worth bringing out. :-P) -- nonoitall 00:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, in terms of choosing which anime, I'd rather go with the Romanized Japanese. This has been said before, I know, but many of the FUNimation name changes or translations are awful. Jeice? Vegito? Tien? Yes, I'm being very biased right here, but it is my opinion. The thing is, the name changes/translations often remove the pun of the character's name. Again, this has been stated before. You get the idea, yadda yadda yadda.

But otherwise, I believe that going with the English manga names is best as it is the manga that the anime is based off of. It is the original source material in which Akira Toriyama drew with his own hands. Again, in my personal opinion, I'd prefer Romanized versions of the character's names, but this is an english wiki, so I figure it should relate to the english translated version of the original source material. In a case of characters being non-canon to the manga, including movie and filler characters, then going with FUNimation's names is fine. That's what it seems like most comic book wikis do, refer to the original source first and fore most, and yet, many times also refer to characters who only appear in other, related media. One can say that this wiki is more about the anime than the manga due in part to the fact that Dragon Ball GT and the Garlic Jr. Saga are also featured, but I think it would be better as being about the manga and other media, including its anime adaption and spinoffs of both. But I'm not sure if everyone else would share that opinion.

And also, about the Mr. Satan/Hercule issue, I brought that up because last time I checked, before I made this discussion, the article was called "Hercule. I wasn't aware that it was changed back to Mr. Satan. My bad.--Mr. Satran 18:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree about the puns. The English anime didn't preserve the Ginyu Force's names very well at all. I really appreciated the English manga's rendition since it seemed to do a better job of adapting the puns to English words. While this isn't something to be established by a vote, I kinda wish more people would join in on the discussion so we could get a good feel for what the community as a whole prefers. A lot of this depends on how readers are going to perceive the names, and getting more input from the various editors and viewers would help.

Another thought that came to my mind is that a lot of differences that were introduced in the English anime are there to make the series somewhat 'Americanized'. (I hope that doesn't come across the wrong way.) So, it's worth noting that many of these changes were actually made to make the anime more appealing to viewers from an English-speaking culture. While many of the jokes and puns may have been appealing to Japanese viewers/readers, those in charge of the English dubbing may have felt that they would not have appealed to their new audience. I can't say whether the dubbers were right or wrong (I kind of like the puns myself), but it's important to remember that the anime thrived in English-speaking territories, in spite (or perhaps because) of those changes.

Now I hope the whole paragraph above didn't come across as trying to push the English anime on everyone. It's just meant to be food for thought, since your comment gave me a lot to think about too. :-) -- nonoitall 21:47, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Are we settled?

Well, it's been a few more weeks since any real discussion took place, and it would be really nice to work on getting things consistent again. My take on the different schemes is as follows:

Japanese Names: 100% accurate and preserve original meaning, but are written in Japanese characters and as such are not suitable for heavy usage in an English wiki. Make little sense to someone who does not understand Japanese.

Romanji Names: Preserve original pronunciation, but not original meaning. Make little sense to someone who does not understand Japanese and Romanji.

English Names from the Japanese Manga/Anime: Official source, but very incomplete. Also inconsistent. (For instance, Krillin is named "Kulilin" at one point and "Kuririn" at another.)

English Manga Names: Best at preserving original meaning. But, their usage leaves holes in areas like the Garlic Jr. Saga, the movies and Dragon Ball GT. English anime names could be used to fill the gaps, but that would be inconsistent. (For example, we'd end up having names like Jheese and Pikkon together in an article, when those names would never be used together in any real Dragon Ball media.)

English Anime Names: Some of the original meanings have been altered, but the series was accepted and became popular among English-speaking fans nonetheless. Very complete, with relatively few inconsistencies.

Of the five proposed naming schemes, only Japanese, Romanji and English anime would be complete enough to cover the whole wiki without major gaps and inconsistencies. I think we all agree pretty unanimously that Japanese is out of the question because it does not use Latin characters. That just leaves Romanji and English anime names. As Romanji is not designed to preserve meaning at all (it only provides a way to write Japanese words in the Latin alphabet), English anime names, despite their faults, will preserve the original meaning to an English-speaking person better than Romanji would. Also, it is reasonable to assume that the English anime names are the most familiar to English speaking fans.

Are there any objections to this that have not been addressed? If not, I'd like to update the MoS and get back to work on getting the articles consistent. Bare in mind that this only would apply as the primary naming convention for the wiki; the other names will still be present. -- nonoitall 10:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

If I had a say in the matter, I'd vote for a mixture of English manga and English anime names. I believe the translation of the original source material should take precedence. Granted, we would end up with odd mixtures like Jheese and Pikkon in the same article, but that's what links are there for, right? Besides, we can redirect the romaji and English anime names to the respective manga names should anyone type them in the search bar. My only changes to these rules would be...

1.) Hercule becomes Mr. Satan. I use the line in the English manga referring to this as his professional name as justification.

2.) Majuub from GT becomes Djoob, to keep in line with the spelling used in the English manga.

3.) The OVA might never get an American release (unless FUNimation can work the rights out), so I don't know how to handle the names of the characters original to that. We could simply use romaji, or modify the romaji to fit any puns that the names are supposed to make.

Also, I would only support these if the Japanese and romaji spellings were provided at the start of the opening paragraph. Just my two cents.198.137.20.43 16:48, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

You do have a say. :-) I strongly support having the Japanese and Romanji titles included in the opening of the articles (and info boxes as well, where applicable). I'm sure by now it's obvious that my opinion is that consistency and recognizability take precedence over precision. It just sort of concerns me that we'd have paragraphs talking about South Kai, East Kai, West Kai and Kaiō-sama. (That's one instance where the English anime name seems more understandable than the English manga title.) Yes, there will be links, but not every instance of the names get linked, and the inconsistency within the same sentence does seem to make it look less polished. Thoughts? --  talk contr 23:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

After skimming through all the paragraphs of people beating each-other up over how this English website is supposed to have the original Japanese names instead of what is shown in the English version of the show, I figured I would actually disguss the power levels.

The power levels displayed on this website are mostly hersay and guesses. There are few proven resources that dictate where those numbers were generated. I know that Goku's power level was "over 9000" and Freeza in stage 2 was over a million, but Freeza in his final stage cannot be 120 million. That's a bit of a ridiculous assumption, I am looking to find a legitamate source for power levels right now.

It's been a few weeks since the last discussion about the naming scheme, aside from a couple arguments in favor of the English names on the talk page. Are there any unresolved arguments against using English anime names, with other names being listed on their subjects' pages, or may I update the MoS? --  talk contr 22:09, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't know, I sort of think it would make more sense to title articles after their English counterparts rather than their Japanese ones. While the Japanese titles are entirely accurate to what someone or something is called, this is an English wiki directed at, though not exclusive to, an English audience. It's like one user said, using the direct titles imposed by the Japanese side of the series would mean Dragon Ball Z would likely need to be redirected to Doragon Bōru Zetto, which if you're like me you would feel is unacceptable. It breaks consistency when Master Roshi links to Master Roshi, but Wolf Fang Fist redirects to Rōgafūfūken. Article titles should use the most commonly accepted English names (which I guess would be those that appear most often in the Funimation dub), or when Funimation names are unavailable (for example, Kuriza) the next best English source should be used. When material is exclusive to Japan and has absolutely no confirmed English name (for example, Tarble, which at the moment links to Table), I guess the romanized Japanese name would be best suited for the article title. The leads of articles should use the nihongo template to state the most commonly designated English name, as appears in the article title, as well as the kana and romanized names, followed by whatever English name is most true to the original title given by Akira Toriyama or Toei. That's my opinion. Storm 23:57, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

^_^ yes, using English names is what the discussion was leaning on. Actually, the template here is {{translation}}, not Nihongo. The initial part works similarly to Nihongo. However romaji is automatically italicized (unlike WP's), and there are a number of parameters for |viz= |engtv= |fansub= |lit meaning= and so on versions, which have a good standardized text rather than a non-standardized set of formatted text. (I've seen ''Literally'' and ''Literally meaning'' with varying uses around wiki before) ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) ^(talk) Nov 26, 2008 _@ 00:30 ^(UTC)

Oh, well that's even better lol. I inserted nihongo templates into a few articles that I was fixing after I saw its use in the Kai article (I saw the Translation template afterwards, but I figured because both were found on the wiki they were likely just duplicate templates, so I just went with the one I had way more experience using hah). Storm 00:42, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Not the place for sub/dub debate

I may be missreading this but his whole arguement seems like another referndum on the english dub, with the usual lines drawn in the sand. The original fans who were buying tapes out of flea markets with poor subs vs the people who grew up watching the funi and other english dubs. Basucally people who coinsider themselves old-school, hardcore, orgianal or whatever vs the people they consider to be noobs. This is a wiki not an anime forum this is not the place to have yet anothe thrilling debate about english names and dubbing and preserving the intent of the authour and all that stuff, there are plenty of message boards for these types of arguements. This is an english wiki it should use the english names.

Dekoshu talk contrib 18:46, 22 December 2008 (UTC) Pardon me?

Bojack Unbound

Just one correction concerning one of the villains' name in the film 'Bojack Unbound': The information regarding Kogu's name and its relationship to Goku's is incorrect. In fact, he's original name is 'Gokua' rather than 'Kogu', which is a pun with a similar theme as the other 4 villains of the film. 'Gokua' comes from 'gokuaku', which in Japanese means 'evil'. Therefore it is difficult to see it having any relationship with Goku's name. Tango

Hercule/Mr. Satan

In my rewrites I've had the opportunity to correct a number of names that were spelled as they are in Japanese canon (since this is an English wiki), but there's one name I have trouble settling on. Should this character be spelled as 'Hercule' or 'Mr. Satan'? At first glance it might appear to be a no-brainer, since he's never called Mr. Satan in the English anime, but the English-dubbed movies where he appears retain his original Japanese name. On one hand, Hercule is the name by which he is referred to most in English Dragon Ball dubs (as well as English video games, except initial pressings of Budokai), but on the other hand this means that English dubs have been known to acknowledge the name used in original source material. Thoughts? Storm 00:24, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually he's referred to as Mr. Satan very frequently in the unedited English anime (at least in Funimation's dub of it), and even a few times as Hercule Satan (even though Mr. Satan was supposed to be a stage name and Hercule his real name). My thought was to go with the full Hercule Satan, as it covers everything, and it's used as his full name in the series. Otherwise, probably Mr. Satan, as I'd guess he's probably called by that name more than Hercule (plus it has the merit of being a more direct translation of his original name). --  talk contr 10:35, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Ohh, that explains it. The last Funimation dub I saw was the syndicated version; I've only begun sitting through the uncut series within the past month (and even then, I'm up to Goku's ascension to Super Saiyan). In rewrites I've been temporarily settling on 'Mr. Satan' anyways, so knowing English dubs have acknowledged his original name more than I first expected, I guess I'll continue to use this name. Storm 00:56, 25 December 2008 (UTC)