Forum → Quick question about "power level limits"

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[[Category:{{{1}}}|Quick question about "power level limits"]]

I want thoughts on this topic...I want to see how many people believe Base Goku surpassed Frieza. Then, I want to see how many people believe FPSSJ Goku has surpassed Super Perfect Cell. Then I want to see people give proof for whether they agree/disagree. I just want to see others' opinions here. (This applies to all the adult Saiyans). Only use canon material for proof. Princevegeta66 23:03, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

I'll say... Edit

Base Goku > Frieza

Supreme Kai claimed that Frieza was nothing compared to him, but was concerned about Pui Pui's power, suggesting that Pui Pui was stronger than Frieza. And of course, Pui Pui was defeated with ease by base form Vegeta, who was of comparable strength or weaker than base form Goku.

Full Power Super Perfect Cell > FPSSJ Goku

Goku and Vegeta fought equally at SSJ2, despite Goku having access to the far more powerful SSJ3 form. This might suggest that the saiyans (Goku at least) were able to achieve new forms without necessarily raising the power of their previous forms significantly. He probably spent his training in otherworld achieving new forms rather than improving FPSSJ. Since FPSSJ Goku faced defeat against suppressed Perfect Cell, it's doubtful that he would have gotten strong enough to take out a fully powered Super Perfect Cell.

This is my reasoning, anyway. Anyone have any harder evidence? Janemba4eva 22:59, July 24, 2012 (UTC)

^ It's more likely Kaioshin was referring to First Form Frieza, as Frieza claimed that no one had seen his 3rd and 4th forms for eons or something, and given Kaioshin's track record (vaguely knowing Goku beat Frieza, not knowing about Gohan's SSJ2, worrying about Vegeta over Pui Pui), this is most likely the case. Kaioshin one-shotting First Form Frieza and being worried about Pui Pui doesn't say much of his power. Also, the argument you used for Cell > SSJ Goku can also be used for Frieza > Base Goku - 3 years of regular, outer world Earth Training (which was outdated around Dragon Ball) wouldn't be enough to raise his base from 3 million to over 120 million, and in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, he exclusively trains his SSJ only, to first achieve ASSJ and USSJ, and then FPSSJ. Some argue that "training SSJ automatically raises base", but if this was the case, then FPSSJ Goku would surpass Cell. Which is why I say believe that Frieza > Base Goku and Cell > FPSSJ Goku. (I'm not really up for a serious debate, btw - I just want other people's opinions. That guy pointed his finger and Kakarot fell down!PrinceVegeta66 02:24, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Although if we include GT (the canonicity of which will always be an endless debate, but is considered official material by most) this all becomes moot as base Goku defeated both Frieza and Cell in battle simultaneously :\ Janemba4eva 04:31, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well in the Janemba movie Gohan killed 4th form Frieza in base, with ease. And most people agree that frieza got even stronger in hell. Of course, if you consider movies canon. But in my opinion, Base Goku > Frieza 100%. When saiyans train in their ssj form, its their same body they improve and strenghten. Ssj isn't transforming into a new being, it's just a new, stronger form of you. Radically stronger, but it's still your body. And if the body can handle that form, it must be insanely strong. I believe in the multiplier decrease theory. And Goku and the others have trained so much for years after frieza saga, that i believe their base form is waay over 100 millions. Actually, most of the time they are surpressed, at few millions probably, but they can still power up to 100's, without going ssj. Vegeta didn't power up against Pui Pui, so i believe Frieza>Pui PUi.

---

^ I suppose I see what you mean. Some argue Gohan was in his ultimate/mystic form (seeing as how he was on Earth while Goku & Vegeta were dead, and the Goten & Trunks knew how to fuse while Gohan himself was on Earth at the same time - the only time this occurs is when Gohan is ultimate, even though he doesn't look like it - then again, you can't really fit movies into the timeline). If what you say is true, then FPSSJ Goku > Cell as well, as a result from training SSJ2 and later, SSJ3. I still go by what Vegeta said waaaay back in the series ("The power of the Super Saiyan can only be maintained in a transformed state" - in the manga, this doesn't refer to the Great Ape),but Toriyama could've easily just ignored/forgotten about that.

I also go by the theory that the Saiyans' body become more "enhanced" when they enter SSJ mode, which is why they can handle that power as SSJs, but not in base form (they do appear to get slightly bigger/buff, though not as noticeable as ASSJ/USSJ), whereas, for example, when Goku uses Kaioken, his body does not get enhanced, which is why the technique puts strain on his body. That's why I personally feel all forms hit a wall eventually, and Frieza > Base Saiyans (although a Kaiokenx20 or even x10 may eventually be able to take him out), and Cell > SSJ/FPSSJ. SSJ3 is the only form with no limit, though, since it's supposed to have 100% ki utilization (unless you count GT with SSJ4). But if the new Dragon Ball movie in 2013 disproves this or something (Frieza and Cell return, bwahaha, Goten flicks them away in base thinking they're monsters from a forest), then I'm willing to change my opinion, seeing as how Toriyama is co-writing it and stated that it will be a part of the storyline, not a spin-off like other movies.

Movies, I don't consider canon, though. And GT on the other hand....well, I wouldn't be asking this question if I considered GT canon (I don't hate the series though), seeing as how Goku seems to be stronger than Buu in base....

---Princevegeta66 That guy pointed his finger and Kakarot fell down!PrinceVegeta66 17:27, July 25, 2012 (UTC)

[Michael Says]It's easily feasible that the base saiyans surpassed 100% Freeza by the middle of the Cell Arc. When Goku returned to Earth to be greeted by Future Trunks, both of them were stronger than Goku was on namek. Goku had 2 years worth of improvement while on planet Yardrat, and Trunks was ready to take on 100% Mecha Freeza like it would be a trivial thing. Trunks warns of Androids in the future that are more powerful than anything they have faced before. With 3 years of training ahead of them, it is easy to see that any of the Z fighters would increase their strength by no less than double, given how the weakest of them increased their power by 4 or 5-fold in the Saiyan Arc.

When 17 and 18 are released by Dr. Gero, Trunks says that they are much stronger than the 17 and 18 from his own time. Piccolo is able to match 17's power after fusing with Kami, but that power is far below Imperfect Cell after it had absorbed thousands of people. Upon reaching Semi-Perfect Form, Cell added the power of Android 17 to his own and was able to tank a punch from Android 16 and not budge one inch. Then, when facing Ascended Super SaiyanVegeta, Cell is easily thrown around even after performing a large power up. Then, after Achieving his perfect form Cell outclasses Vegeta easily. Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks is stronger than Cell by the latter's own admittance, and later, the power of 50% Super Saiyan Goku leaves everyone in awe, meaning that it is even greater than Ultra Super Saiyan Trunks' power. There are very large gaps here. Let's try to use the bare minimum gaps and see how strong Vegeta gets after one trip training in the Time Chamber:

Trunks Arrives:

Goku(Returning from Yardrat):

~Base: 4,000,000

~Ssj: 200,000,000

Androids Arc(3 years Later):

Goku:

~Base: 8,000,000

~Ssj: 400,000,000

Vegeta:

~Base: 8,200,000

~Ssj: 410,000,000

Android 17: 574,000,000

Piccolo(Post-Kami-Fusion): 574,000,000

Imperfect Cell(Post Human-Absorptions): 850,000,000

Android 16: 850,000,000

Semi-Perfect Cell:

~Initial: 1,424,000,000

~Full Power: 2,000,000,000

Vegeta, Post-Time Chamber Training:

~Base: 36,000,000

~Ssj: 1,800,000,000

~Ascended Ssj: 2,340,000,000

Trunks, Post-Time Chamber Training:

~Base: 34,000,000

~Ssj: 1,700,000,000

~Ascended Ssj: 2,210,000,000

~Ultra Ssj: 2,700,000,000

Perfect Cell: 2,500,000,000

Goku, Post-Time Chamber Training:

Base: 120,000,000

~50% Ssj: 3,000,000,000

~100% Ssj: 6,000,000,000

So you see, at the BARE-MINIMUM, Cell Games Base Goku matches 100% Freeza. Add on training between the Cell and Buu Saga, and he far surpasses him.

Not to mention the fact that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta were ok with participating in the Buu Saga tournament without using Super Saiyan with the likes of Piccolo and Android 18 there as well. This means that their base forms are AT LEAST on par with 18, if not stronger.

^ I see. What about the SSJ1s against Super Perfect Cell by the Buu Saga?

That guy pointed his finger and Kakarot fell down!PrinceVegeta66 04:46, July 31, 2012 (UTC)