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[[Category:{{{1}}}|SS3 or SS4, Which is stronger?]]
While the Super Saiyan 3 state requires 100% consumption of ki and energy, the Super Saiyan 4 state doesn't. It only requires you to be in control of the Golden Ape and the Super Saiyan state (as we all know). So, wouldn't the Super Saiyan 4 state be more of a Super Saiyan1.5 or 3.5 instead of four. Please help me understand this.
Super Saiyan 4[]
This is not hard the fact is that a Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 if you seen Goku Vs Baby Vegeta you will understand.AREA95000 23:37, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
SSJ4[]
SSJ4 is clearly stronger than SSJ3. But I can see why you don't understand...GT was non-canon, so SSJ3 really is the highest state of SSJ, but if you want to compare the two, SSJ4 > SSJ3.
Super Saiyan 4 is stronger. Super Saiyan 3 is approximately 400 times stronger than base, while Super Saiyan 4 is about 500 times base. This can be figured out by how the transformation is obtained. It's basically the Super Saiyan transformation combined with the Great Ape transformation. That's 50 X 10 times stronger than base since Super Saiyan is 50 times stronger than base and Great Ape is 10 times stronger than base. The transformation results in the Golden Great Ape form, which can be reverted back to a humanoid form once consciousness is regained.
Theoretically, Super Saiyan 5 and 6 should be able to be achieved the same way by combining Super Saiyan 2 and 3 with the Great Ape transformation. That would make the transformations as followed:
Great Ape = 10 X base
Super Saiyan = 50 X base
Super Saiyan 2 = 100 X base
Super Saiyan 3 = 400 X base
Super Saiyan 4 = 500 X base (50 X 10 X base)
Super Saiyan 5 = 1000 X base (100 X 10 X base)
Super Saiyan 7 = 4000 X base (4000 X 10 X base)
Any higher levels, if there are any, would only be guesses.
SSJ3 stronger than SSJ4. The fight between baby Vegeta kind've proves that so I don't know what he's talking about.
First of all, SSJ3 seemed a lot weaker in GT because of Goku's body. His new childish body could not handle all the power SSJ3 had to offer. So the state was naturally weakened. BY A LOT!
Secondly, SSJ4 is only useful for conserving energy. Baby Vegeta wasn't really that strong. As a matter of fact, Baby Vegeta would've gotten tossed around by a refurbished Vegeta from the Buu Saga.
Now in order to see this you have to be very observent of the battles.
Also SSJ3 has way more energy than SSJ4. When Goku first transformed to SSJ3 the whole planet was shaking being demolished! When Goku turned into SSJ4 he barely cracked the ground.
I could keep going but it'll take a while. if you don't agree with me than idk what to say. I may respond in the future.
Why are you dumb? --DARK 17:02, July 25, 2012 (UTC)
SSJ4 because[]
Without looking at power levels, another way to see which is stronger is by looking at Goku's body. This is explained under the SSJ4 page, but I'll try to explain it here.
We all know that an eternal dragon's power is limited. If something surpasses its power, the wish cannot be granted. Pilaf's wish for Goku to be a child keeps him as a kid even at the SSJ3 level. However, at SSJ4, Goku's power surpasses that of Black Star Shenron, which is why they wish no longer takes affect and he becomes a grownup again, but turns back to a kid if he drops the transformation. At SSJ3, Goku's power level is at 320,000,000,000. Black Star Shenron's power is 500,000,000,000. Goku surpasses this in SSJ4 form where his power level reaches 550,000,000,000.
That doesn't really matter. The SSJ3 from DBZ is stronger than SSJ4. Look, A huge percentage of Goku's SSJ3 energy is directed in keeping Goku in that state. Another percentage is at his disposal. However thats not the case in SSJ4. In SSJ4 Goku says it himself that he conserves a lot more energy that way. SSJ3 is so strong that it puts a huge strain on Goku's body. In GT, thats not the case though. His little body can't handle all that power so the state is made weaker. Why do you think in general Goku is weaker in GT than in Z? Because of his little body. Please keep in mind when I say SSJ3 I'm refering to the SSJ3 in Z not GT.
So lets take Buu Saga Goku vs Omege Shenron Saga Goku.. Just imagine the battle.
Shakuran13's case[]
Here I will try to pick apart these arguments:
"While the Super Saiyan 3 state requires 100% consumption of ki and energy, the Super Saiyan 4 state doesn't."
- While that is true, that is not indicative of SSJ4 being weaker than SSJ3. Indeed, an exception to this is how USSJ requires a huge drain on power, but SSJ2 doesn't, though SSJ2 is stronger. If however, you do not believe that SSJ2>USSJ, we can at least agree on the fact that SSJ2>ASSJ, which is a similar case, except that ASSJ doesn't drain power as much.
" It only requires you to be in control of the Golden Ape and the Super Saiyan state".
- But is this necessarily true? All we really know is that SSJ4 is attained through control of Golden Great Ape. But the requirements for Golden Great Ape, as stated in the actual article are "a tail, a sufficient power level, and [being] in use of the Super Saiyan form and above".
- I'd like to first draw attention to "a sufficient power level". It seems to never be clear what a sufficient power level is, but I think it probable, even very likely, that a sufficient power level includes the potential for SSJ3, though not necessitating actual ability to transform to that level.
- This would be why Vegeta could also transform into SSJ4, though artificially. Goku and Vegeta were both equal in power (which is supported by the fact that they could do fusion), but Goku could become an SSJ4 without help from Bulma. The reason for this is most likely the fact that Vegeta has the power to turn SSJ4, but not the acquisition of the SSJ3 form. And the only reason he can't turn SSJ3 is that everyone in the series who manages to do so does it by supernatural means, such as doing it where one's life force is unlimited, or doing it with fusion.
- So in other words, SSJ4 actually requires more than just being SSJ and having a tail.
"SSJ3 stronger than SSJ4. The fight between baby Vegeta kind've proves that so I don't know what he's talking about."
- But how?
"First of all, SSJ3 seemed a lot weaker in GT because of Goku's body. His new childish body could not handle all the power SSJ3 had to offer. So the state was naturally weakened. BY A LOT!"
- Goku wasn't weaker as a kid though. Read my reasons: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:GT_Kid_Goku_power_compared_to_Z_Adult_Goku_power?t=20120708043601#Trying_to_end_the_argument. It is indeed true that his childish body couldn't handle SSJ3, but when he does turn SSJ3, he definitely seems stronger. The fact that his body can't handle it though manifests itself in a different way, which is the fact that he cannot maintain it.
"Secondly, SSJ4 is only useful for conserving energy. Baby Vegeta wasn't really that strong. As a matter of fact, Baby Vegeta would've gotten tossed around by a refurbished Vegeta from the Buu Saga."
- But there's no proof of this. Plus, Vegeta was training since Z, so I don't know what you're talking about with a "refurbished Vegeta".
"Now in order to see this you have to be very observent of the battles."
- I understand that but since you apparently ARE so observant, why don't you explain?
"Also SSJ3 has way more energy than SSJ4. When Goku first transformed to SSJ3 the whole planet was shaking being demolished! When Goku turned into SSJ4 he barely cracked the ground."
- That just shows how inefficient SSJ3 is, not how weak SSJ4 is. SSJ3 is like an incandescent light bulb. It's fine, but it wastes way more energy than it actually uses. SSJ4 is the fluorescent light bulb, works even better than incandescent, but without wasting power. Plus, this argument is garbage because in the Saiyan Saga, when Vegeta powers up, the earth shakes, but in the Androids/Cell Saga, when Goku powers up to Super Saiyan, no apparent effect is shown on the Earth.
"I could keep going but it'll take a while. if you don't agree with me than idk what to say. I may respond in the future."
- I see. Myth busted.
(At a reasonable and well thought out explanation) "That doesn't really matter."
- Why not? I could just say that to all other arguments on here.
"Look, A huge percentage of Goku's SSJ3 energy is directed in keeping Goku in that state. Another percentage is at his disposal. However thats not the case in SSJ4. In SSJ4 Goku says it himself that he conserves a lot more energy that way."
- Exactly. All that excess energy directed at keeping Goku in SSJ3 is not wasted in SSJ4, so he can utilize ALL that power to actually fight in SSJ4.
"SSJ3 is so strong that it puts a huge strain on Goku's body. In GT, thats not the case though. His little body can't handle all that power so the state is made weaker."
- SSJ3 is indeed strong, but also inefficient. In GT, the state is not weaker, just harder to maintain.
"Why do you think in general Goku is weaker in GT than in Z? Because of his little body."
- But he's not weaker in GT. See this: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:GT_Kid_Goku_power_compared_to_Z_Adult_Goku_power?t=20120708043601#Trying_to_end_the_argument.
Shakuran13
This
ends
NOW!
03:55, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
You can't be serious![]
Obviously SSJ4 is stronger than SSJ3. A lot of misunderstanding in GT comes from the fact that fans think Goku lost power in GT, by turning into a child...but this is totally false. Goku did not lose ANY power at all, and in fact got stronger during the series (through the battles in space and against Baby). Take a look at what he says to Cell and Freeza:
Freeza: " *snickering* It's been a long time Goku. And you've gotten so much cuter since then.
Goku: My size has nothing to do with this Freeza, because now I'm stronger than ever!
Clear evidence that Goku lost no power turning into a child, and is actually stronger than he was in Z (as an adult). So obviously SSJ4 is easily stronger than SSJ3. Your argument about Ki consumption is totally off. By your theory, the Great Ape (Oozaru) from should technically be stronger than the SSJ form, since it consumes absolutely no Ki. Anyone one with half a brain would tell you that's flat out wrong. SuperGogeta91 (talk) 17:12, July 26, 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. Thank you. Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 03:48, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
Hmm...[]
Hey! Can't you see serial numbers it come after each SSJ transformaton? Since all the transformations follow this seriality 1<2<3<4 so obivously SSJ4 is stronger than SSJ3. Did this make sense? Mystery reveals!~Luster was here?~Where is he now?~ 04:03, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
When Goku was Full Power Super Saiyan or Mastered Super Saiyan he didnt have to worry about losing the form because it didnt absorb as much chi or ki as before. So if he was some how able to master SSJ3 then it would reduce chi or ki usage. Another factor being how gifted the user is and what techniques they know. If random calculations are correct (which they aren't always) then if a Full Powered SSJ3 was fighting a SSJ4 then the SSJ4 would only be more powerful by 20%. And a major factor is the Kaio-ken, in the Other World Tournament Goku debuted his Super Kaio-ken and connected a devistating blow to Pikkon's face. So if the SSJ3 was to use the Super Kaio-ken he would prove to be more powerful than the SSJ4 for a certain period of time.
Every successor of a previous SSJ transformation is loads times stronger, no matter how much you train it. Goku and Gohan in Cell Games Saga was proof of that. Gohan had mastered the SSJ and was also stronger, but still no match for Cell. Finally after turning SSJ2, the tables were turned. The same goes for SSJ2-3 and SSJ3-4. If both Vegeta and Goku are equal (for the sake of argument) and Goku went SSJ3 with Kaiokenx20 (which he would instantanously die, since the body strain would be way too much), and Vegeta went SSJ4, Vegeta would still outclass Goku in every way. There's no comeptition between the different levels of SSJ. I don't know why people are still debating this...you would have to be very stupid to not understand SSJ4>>>SSJ3. SuperGogeta91 (talk) 13:25, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
SSJ4 is 10x Stronger than SSJ3[]
The official multipliers for a SSJ are as follows;
Oozaru-Base x10
SSJ-Base x50
SSJ2-Base x100
SSJ3-Base x400
SSJ4-Base x4,000
Now, that would imply that a SSJ3 ability is required to be a SSJ4 as it is equivilent to 10x SSJ3. So, a SSJ3 going Oozaru would get a 4000x boost. This explains why Vegeta can only go SSJ4 with Bulma's help. He hasn't yet mastered a SSJ3, no one has except Goku. Gotenks attaned it, but he is a fusion. So, we ask if a SSJ had a tail and looked at the moon what would happen? A Golden Great Ape would most likely appear, a controlled state would also result in a SSJ4, but his power would be only 500x base. so, he would be a much weaker SSJ4. Now, this an error in GT, and since the multipliers have been made official, then a SSJ3 transformation is required to become a SSJ4.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 20:26, March 28, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1