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SSJ 4 vs Super Saiyan God

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OK here is the real answer

Akira said there would be no more SSj levels so we will now only see him in a base form and a SSJG form essentially resetting the forms so if you really want to compare it SSJ4  would be in between SJG and SSJG  mode as Akira confirmed Goku would no longer use SSJ2 and 3 thus starting a whole new level so if we do see any more levels of transformation it would be more along the lines of SSJG2 and no longer will he use SSJ levels. You can really argue it anyway you like but essentially we are starting from a new base level as shown in Battle of Gods he went base but still managed to equal 70% of the destroyers power thus attaining super saiyin god mode as a new base form and the new movie will add the first incarnation of a super saiyan god Emp1976 (talk) 20:16, April 30, 2015 (UTC)

Forum SSJ 4 vs Super Saiyan God

[[Category:{{{1}}}|SSJ 4 vs Super Saiyan God]]

Do yall not realize that SSJG was only most likey thought of during the last couples years and therefore didnt exist in DBGT because DBGT was created over 20 years ago so goku vegeta or any of the characters would not have thought about using SSJG to fight.


SSJ God is stronger

Come on people, Goku turned super saiyan 3 in the movie and was beaten by one "soft" hit by Bills. Would it make a difference if he was SSJ4? And quote this "What Bills says is that what everyone calls "Kidoesn't work with Gods." THEREFORE even SSJ4's power won't work with Bills. SSJG can equal and surpass Bills, we can anticipate this in the movies to come and SSJ4 which is not God, cannot use his ki on Bills. "SSJ4" is just toothpick to Bills and SSJG, BY THE WAY, since SSJG is GOD, SSJ4's ki won't work on him as well. ANSWER THAT NOW. Base GT Goku=SSJ3 DBZ Goku

SSJ4 GT Goku is, therefore, 4000x stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku

SSJ3 Movie 14 Goku>SSJ3 DBZ Goku

SSJ4 GT Goku is, therefore, <4000x (less than 4000 times) stronger than SSJ3 M14 Goku

Bills>>>>SSJ3 M14 Goku>SSJ3 DBZ Goku

Since we do not know whether Bills or SSJ God Goku is 4000x stronger or less or more than SSJ3 M14 Goku, we cannot state if SSJ4 Goku is stronger or weaker than SSJ God Goku. Thus, I state that SSJ God is stronger due to the fact he was able to equal Bills, the God of Destruction, who was said to be able to destroy a galaxy. The SSJ God form also lets Goku use godly ki, which beats any variation of normal ki which SSJ4 utilizes.

I wonder which is stronger?

Super Saiyan God can't beat Bills but SSJ 4 can beat Great Ape baby.

So which is stronger? Clock God (talk) 14:32, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

I say Super Saiyan 4 is stronger, because GT Goku achieved this while only Z Goku achieved Super Saiyan God. Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 Dragon-ball-z-wallpaper-8 14:38, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your guess, I think so but I wonder if there will be new series or movie after dbz battle of the gods until the judgment day? Clock God (talk) 14:43, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

SSJ4= Super Saiyan God


Super Saiyan God comes in DBZ. So, technically, GT Goku can turn Super Saiyan God.

Sandubadear (talk) 16:21, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well If GT is non Cannon Super Saiyan God would serve as super saiyan 4 However if GT is cannon then you get a bowl of poop

/\ wow thank god GT is not a cannon, otherwise we'd all blown up

Sandubadear (talk) 19:14, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

I think Super Saiyan god is a stronger form. I mean Goku is taking on someone who is stronger than Super Vegetto. If Goku were to turn SSJ4 in DBZ, I don't think he would be stronger than Super Vegito at all. If the question is SSJ4 Goku GT vs SSJg Goku than SSJ4 no doubt. 19:24, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Super Saiyan God will be the new SSJ 4!


This entire discussion is ridiculous! GT is NOT Canon, as stated by Akira Toriyama (bullshit). Which means, within the realm of the Dragon Ball Universe, SSJ4 never existed. SSG is the pinnacle of Saiyan Power. The most powerful being to have ever existed.

Learn your facts people

1 - Seach for news about the movie. Bills is probably a little stronger than Super Saiyan God.

2 - Really? Toriyama stated that? Show me a link, or even his quote.

3- To be honest ive seen more inconsistencies in DB and DBZ than GT so i would definetly consider GT canon and for anybody who says that akira toriyama did not write GT reall does not know what they are talking about and are not taking the time to know fact from someone elses opinion yeah there were more people working on it as well but if akira toriyama did not have a single thing to do with GT then i would agree with anybody that GT is not canon anybody want to prove this point wrong post a link now  i dont think ssj god is stronger and this is why the inconsistencies with this movie and my point being if akira toriyama said that GT is not canon send me a link if ssj god was before omega shenron then why in the heck did they not use it against him if it were stronger than ssj4 they didnt goku stayed ssj4 and so did vegeta and to think that it was stated that there is a ssj5 ssjgod is nothing more than just a ability  like kaioken and for the 3rd time want to prove a point show me a link or somthing that akira toriyama states that GT is not Canon  

Actually Bills apparently states that there is someone more powerful than a SSG in the 12th Universe. And Whis is way stronger than SSGod, which is on par with Bills on strength. Secondly, Saiyan power reaches it's pinnacle with Potara and Fusion........

Contact me at: for any questions related to the Dragon Ball franchise. I'll try to answer them the best I can!

First off, GT is not cannon, simple as that. Second, Fusion is not the pinnacle of Saiyan power. Technically it's the pinnacle of the race that made fusion and the Potara Fusion is the pinnacle of the Kaioshin power. Also just for the sake of argument, SSJG is like fusion of six Saiyans so it could be more powerful. It's probably not, I'm just pointing out the silly context of your last comment there.

Did akira toriyama create dragonball gt?

Answer:No. Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. He's directly responsible for the mangas, and worked closely on the production and writing for the shows with the teams at Toei. However, because Toriyama wanted to move away from Dragon ball to work on other projects, he allowed Toei to continue using his characters for GT, only occasionally sitting in on production meetings and passing along designs to the artists for the show. By the shows second season, (a.k.a. the Super 17 arc) between his own disgust and the fan rage, Toriyama wanted to pull the plug on the series, seeing as he owned the rights to the characters. Toei had a contract that gave them control for one more season, so in return, Toriyama jumped on GT in the final season, writing the Shadow Dragon arc to close out the series once and for all. He has not done any new canonical additions to the series despite 1000 internet rumors that he has. The closest thing to canon he accepts is the "Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return!" TV special. He still produces for the video games and produced for DBZ Kai.

He's gone on record in interviews saying he disliked GT, has apologized for it, and has openly declared that it should not be regarded as part of the main continuity.


Well what are you asking? Super Saiyan 4 Goku vs Super Saiyan God Goku or the forms in general. Ssj4 Goku was stronger when he achieved that form than DBZ Goku so he is most likely stronger but the form itself I predict Ssj God to be stronger cause Ssj4 is 10 times Ssj3 so thats not a huge gap. To be weaker, that would mean Bills is only like 4 fold of Goku! Zen's profile Zen's talk page 19:46, February 28, 2013 (UTC)


akira toriyama said in that the movie is canon and its between . chapters 517 and 518 of the original manga...........and gt is non canon and should not exist................the super saiyajin god was the strongest and the most powerful saiyan form that every saiyajin can be........................i live in japan.......i know whats going on..................sorry for my english...............another fact is The film will be an official part of the Dragon Ball storyline, with original creator Akira Toriyama deeply involved and being set between chapters 517 and 518 of the original manga, often referred to as the "lost decade" after the battle with Majin Boo.The plot involves Bills, the God of Destruction (破壊神ビルス ) learning from Wiss (ウイス ) of the defeat of the evil Freeza by the hands of Goku. Seeking an opponent worthy of his power, Bills, along with Wiss, travels to the North Quadrant of the universe to challenge Goku to a battle.


When did Akira discredit GT as non-canon?

You're all retarded. Super Saiyan God is confirmed in being stronger than SSJ4.

- Evidence please? Because I am gay and don't know about dragonball z at all only GT.

Everyone shouldn't even care about dragon testicle z anymore. It's all about COD now. I'll be getting dope kill steaks while you're all staying with a dead series. #yoloswag

Super Saiyan 4 is Stronger.

Let's take a look at this shall we?

Dragon Ball GT is non-canon, if it doesn't have a manga or was never in a manga it's FILLER!

Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods is confirmed to canon by Akira Toriyama. Another reason why Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than Super Saiyan God is because the Supreme Kai stated that Baby Vegeta was the strongest Ki he ever felt during the fight in which Goku surpassed him. However Bills is confirmed to be the "Strongest" Dragon Ball Z villian not including GT. So, if you're a fan who includes GT, that means Bills is not as powerful as Baby and Syn Shenron.

What do you idiots not get this is a Dragon Ball Z movie. So with that statement that Bills is the "Strongest" Dragonball villian, its for Dragonball Z not GT. There is a reason why the Elder Kai only told Goku about the Earring Fusion and not SSJ4 because he knew that Goku didn't have the power yet until later in GT.  Agreed SSJG is strong but there is a reason why it wasn't in GT, BECAUSE IT WASN'T STRONG ENOUGH. They couldn't use SSJG against baby because he was controlling vegita and the others, so Pan and Goku were the only pure saiyans at the time. SSJ4 was achieved and the was no need for SSJG against Super Android 17 because the better SSJ power was achieved. Therefore SSJG is the strongest form in Dragonball Z but since it wasn't part of GT then that means there was no longer any need for SSJG since the Elder Kai knew that SSJ4 was stronger.  Omega Shenron is still the strongest villian and SSJ4 Gogeta is still the strongest being in existence for now.

You need to recheck what you said because your conclusion in "Therefore, he is stronger than a SSJ4." was not very logical. Here is what you said:

SSJ4 > Vegito

Bills > Vegito

Therefore, Bills > SSJ4.

The comparison there shows that both are stronger than Vegito, and by that analysis you can't conclude that Bills is stronger than SSJ4, they could be equal for all we know.

Later you said that Bills beats SSJ3 Goku so easily that maybe even if he transformed into SSJ4, it wouldn't be that much different and Bills could still be stronger, also considering that SSJ4 is only 10x stronger than SSJ3, when all other transformations are 50x stronger than the previous. That's a more valid argument but remember one thing that always happens with all Dragon Ball villains:

Frieza can beat Goku very easily, Goku achieves SSJ form and now Goku beats Frieza very easily.

Cell in his perfect form outmatches Gohan by a lot, Gohan achieves SSJ2 and now he beats perfect Cell very easily (of course I am excluding the part where Cell comes back and gets stronger and is now in par with Gohan, as this part of the saga is irrelevant to my point).

Beby Vegeta beats SSJ3 very easily, Goku achieves SSJ4 and now beats Beby Vegeta very easily (also, I am excluding the part where Beby Vegeta gets the power of SSJ4 because that is also irrelevant to my point).

So my point here is basically that villains are much stronger than the heroes, then the heroes achieve a new transformation and now they are much stronger than the villains. And thus, SSJ3 Goku is strongly outmatched by Bills, then Goku could achieve SSJ4 and strongly outmatch Bills, considering they've done this with most villains except Majin Boo.

super wujuuu

without providing the efficient evidence? If you ever saw an interview or anything that has Akira straight out saying DBGT is non-canon to the story then !! Otherwise, that's just your opinion, everyone has those and it doesn't mean it's true! Akira straight forwardan interview from the past that o wasstrongest unfused character at the end of the manga, no arguing against DBGT is non canon? If you cannot show me  proof then that's just an opinon.

in it recommends it and had high hopes about it, even sayingable to continue in serialization but he doesn't want to draw it. Now, if you want to quote Akira, then quote him because in the end it makes you look like you're putting your foot in your mouth.

Now, my thoughts on this SSJ4 vs SSJG thing, personally I don't even know why we're speculating about it yet. We've seen SSJ4 in out there like making Akira Toriyama say things he never said just to hate on GT. 

According to some that saw the pre-screening of BOGs, Super Saiyan God is just a powerup. The closest thing to it is Super Kaio-Ken. It shouldnt even be called "Super Saiyan" they just used the name to get fan-boys excited, therefore Super Saiyan 4 is stronger. 

In the future if you want a real source go toKanzenshuu and not some idiots making up Toriyama lies.  Anyway, multiplier-wise, I see SSjG as being bigger than SSj4's multiplier. But timeline-wise, SSj4 Goku>>>>SSjG Goku. If you wanna know why, all you need to do is ask.Disasters GoOn (talk) 02:58, March 26, 2013 (UTC)Disasters GoOn

Movie is Canon

LOL the movie IS canon learn your facts AT said he'd "never been so deeply involved in a project before."  (mabye not exact quote but search it up)

ok dude, I give up.

Sandubadear (talk) 18:47, March 17, 2013 (UTC)

From what I understand, the movies are canon with the anime, just not the manga (after all, the manga and anime are technically different continuities;, the same story, but some differences; in the manga for example, Vegeta waited on Earth for Goku to return from Namek, but in the anime he flew off into space looking for him).  The DB movies are not canon with anything since they are alternate tellings of the early events of the manga and anime.  The DBZ movies I would say are canon with the anime (but not necessarily the manga) because they are supported by the anime filler (which again is not necessarily canon with the manga but is canon with the anime; for example, the Garlic Jr. Saga filler supports "Dead Zone" and Cooler's presence in GT proves the Cooler films).  There are many major inconsistencies between the films and the show because most DBZ films were designed to take place after whatever storyline Toriyama was working on, so they didn't know what twists he would take.  For example, when they made "Tree of Might," it was made during the Namek Saga I believe and they knew it would be after everyone was brought back to life, but they didn't know that Goku would be a Super Saiyan or that the other characters would get as strong as they did (for example, after healing from near death so many times Gohan should have been way stronger than 10,000, a level he had when he faced the Ginyu force).  GT is basically all filler as it was not based on the manga, so it is not necessarily canon with the manga (from what I understand, DB Online is another alternate sequal to DBZ), but it is canon with the anime continuity.  GreenDragonRanger (talk) 20:45, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

Is this really unclear?

You guys should know that GT is just as canon as this movie. Despite what people say, AT only took part in Bill's backstory and the characters' design - even Super Saiyan God wasn't his idea, unlike Super Saiyan 4. Now that this is clear, lets look into some facts before answering the question. 

1 - When fighting General Rilldo, Goku cleary states that his Ki is the greatest he had ever felt, even when the guy's in his basic form (which means he is, at least, stronger that Gohan Buu). However, Goku fights him for a while WHITOUT even going Super Saiyan. What does this mean? It means that Goku had become so much stronger that he surpassed DBZ's Super Saiyan 3 BY FAR in his basic form.

2 - Later in DBGT, he is UNABLE TO TOUCH basic Baby Vegeta even after going all out (it is true that his small body could barely maintain Super Saiyan 3). When he finally transforms into Super Saiyan 4, Baby's attacks do nothing to him, at all. 

3 - I'm not sure if you are aware, but after becoming Super Saiyan God and going back to normal due to the form's time limit, Goku still has "God-like powers" that let him resist Bills for a while. Since at no point this movie "cancels" GT, Goku still had these same powers years later! 

So, in conclusion: Super Saiyan 4 IS stronger than Super Saiyan God and even stronger than Vegetto, and there no doubt about it.

GT and the movie are cannons? I hope they don't explode.

Sandubadear (talk) 23:58, March 22, 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, this is the only movie that might be considered canon, since Toriyama did contribute. GT is definitely canon, since he authorised, designed some characters and took part in the development. Unlike Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan 4 was his idea. The real problem here is that most people don't like DBGT, so they just can't deal with the fact that it is what happens after the Buu saga, unless you only consider the manga.

I never looked them as cannons. They seem to be regular cartoons, unlike Road Runner, that is an obvious cannon.
1286930643 Wile E Coyote and Road Runner 46 series 1949 2003 1-1-

Sandubadear (talk) 02:26, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

I just got it XD English isn't my first language... Anyway, they are canon***

Gt just a dream

I like to believe that in the new dbz god saga there going to make, goku is put into a coma from one of the gods and all of gt is just a dream

Man, why do people hate GT so much? I find it almost as good as Z, and on a par with Dragon Ball. They just put a little more comedy and less action than DBZ, but the formula still worked. In my opinion, the only problem was the rush to finish it after Toriyama left the project...

Sorry about the cannon thing, but luckily you understood. But I agree with you, GT is better than movies (obviously), because shit's all explained. Movies have inconsistencies with time, and stuff.

Sandubadear (talk) 18:12, March 23, 2013 (UTC)

Not to worry, even I laughed when I understood it lol

SSJ God is obviously stronger.

SSJ4 obviously.

With the information we already have of SSJ God, we already know SSJ4 would be stronger, even if it's canon or not, SSJ4 is still stronger. While SSJ4 Goku doesn't have a any type of time limit. As a SSJ God, it's just as worse as when he was a SSJ3. So due to the restrain of time, SSJ4 would be stronger. IF SSJ God is stronger, it would need to be strong enough to beat SSJ4 quick enough.

SSJG beats SSJ4

SSJ God is much stronger for 3 reasons.

1. SSJ4 technically shouldnt exist because it was never part of any manga. Neither was SSJ God, but AT said that he was as deeply involved in the making of the movie including the writing as anyone else which makes it as ligit.

Nothing at all to do with the strength and also completely incorrect. This argument is invalid.

2. SSJ God seems to be more of a power up than a state of SSJ, therefor, if someone was SSJ4 and use the SSJG technique then they would be even stronger than a regular SS4.

This doesn't mean anything and makes no sense.

3. If SSJG is a power up, then it would be able to raise someones power level over that of a SS4, as Super Kaio-Ken raises ones power level over that of an SSJ3 without transforming past SSJ2.

No proof to any of this.

I hate guys like this one /\ (the one who said ssg is better) who says shit they don't even understand.

Sandubadear (talk) 01:19, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

None of what this guy said makes sense. In first place, Toriyama was involved in the making of Dragon Ball GT until the end of the Baby Saga, and he himself designed Super Saiyan 4. Also, what is more important: GT comes after Z in the story line, so it doesn't really matter how strong any character from Battle Of Gods is... In the early Dragon Ball GT, Goku states that base General Rilldo had the strongest Ki he'd ever felt, which makes him stronger than any of the Z villains, wheter we like it or not.

Just going to throw this out there.  If Super Saiyan God were actually stronger, why would they have not tried to achieve it in the battle against Omega Shenron?  ESPECIALLY since Vegeta says at the end of this movie that he wants the transformation next time.  The only logical explanation would be that they know that it would not provide enough power to defeat the dragon.  So if thats the case, the fact that they chose super saiyan four clearly indicates that SS4 is stronger

brunch of fags lol

^ Remember this, the Super Saiyan God wasn't even thought of until now, and it's too much trouble to use, it was already confirmed the strongest Super Saiyan Form, the reason it wasn't in GT is because it wasn't even thought up -_-... DERP

^^Akira did not design the Super Saiyan 4 form, check the page on the wiki... And, Super Saiyan God was stated to be the strongest form that a Saiyan can acheive... GT when it comes to power is bullshit.. in fact, it's not even legit with any of it's sense of power. For example; Baby was supposed to be stronger than any Z villain right? Well, his most powerful attack... didn't even effect the Planet, hell, SSJ4 Goke wasn't even affected. My next point is, Super Saiyan 4 is 18 times more powerful that it's predessecor (SSJ3) yet, Super Vegito's power is Goku and Vegeta's power multiplied "many times over".. So, Super Vegito is stronger than SSJ4! Which means, since Bills is stronger, the stronger transformation is Super Saiyan God Gt fanboys and their rants... Kill me now -_-

What if SSJ4 Gogeta was a Pre-SSJG and this is Goku's full-circle evolution?

I understand that GT comes after Z and this takes place before it, but I noticed a similarity between a fused SSJ4 and SSJG:

1) SSJ4 Gogeta's hair was red and the fusion only lasted for a little bit.

2) SSJG's hair is also red and it also only lasted for a little bit.

When I compare the forms- it kinda makes sense to me, maybe not story-wise, but I would think these are major similarities.

What if SSJ4 Gogeta was a Pre-SSJG? I always assumed that SSJ4's power was god-like, but now that we actually have a God Form- they both have red hair and don't last very long.

I also get the "full circle" perspective because I'm thinking: after SSJ4 he regains his regular body, keeps the red hair, and his usage time is cut down even more.

What do you think?

I think you're the only person on here who gets it! :)

Who are you, who is so wise in the ways of things? KryptoSaiyan (talk) 19:43, March 13, 2014 (UTC)


You can continue trying to find similarities and links but it's not how it is. You must understand how the movie is made. The producers don't think in that way, they don't try to put the movie fit withing the storyline and consistencies. They make the movie to stand for itself, to be good as it is. "How is the SSJG gonna look like?" - "Hmm, how about red hair?" -"Sounds good, red hair it is!". And there you have your SSJG.... There is no much philosophy in it.

This is Pointless

this seems like a pointless argument. #1 Cannon or not, Goku God form was before ssj4. #2 No official Power Level has been givin for Goku God Nor a Power Level for Bills.

Since I have to clear everything up...

The Thing about all of this is the choice when they decided to set the timing with everything... This "Billis" guy coming after Goku for defeating freeza? That was like 10 years prior to everything.  I mean wouldn't it have made more sense to have him wanting to fight Goku for defeating Majin Buu(since it does take place 2-3 years after) and he damn near beat everyone including Goku if it wasn't for the Spirit bomb. Sure Freeza was strong for the time period. But The androids were stronger, Cell was stronger (couldnt even beat him) the least they could have done was bring up the fact that he defeated Freeza AND Cooler. Oh but wait... That would be dwindling Freeza as the MIGHTY worrior he was right? NO!

Now about ssj4 and ssG.

Do you guys remember when Goku was super sayin 3 fighting Baby (of course) and he had to turn into that Golden Monkey? (YES) well think about that... If Goku was wished by the black star dragon balls to be a kid again... Then the only thing that could maybe break that long enough for him to reach that God like power is gowing ape(with a little help of the tuffles moon)!?!?!? Now since Goku couldnt handle that much power in the ape form(since he was about to crush pan) he had to take it to that next level... SSJ4.

So to answer your questions kids... God form isn't stronger... It is the controlled form without a time restraint.

It is after frieza but also in the movie buu is on their side

this is another person:

this guy i think never watched the buu saga buu became good becuse mr. satan and he didnt watch battle of gods

ssjgod is completly unstable so know youre facts and bills come to earth to see of goku can challange him 

like the fish oracle said and than buu called him rabbit face

ps:fuck gt and everyone thinking its canon

pss:fuck you yamcha

GT is like Super Mario Bros 2

Heres the facts that I think prove that ssjg is stronger that ssj4 

in fusion reborn we get factual eveidence that the fusion dance creates higher than an 8 times power up as ssj3 goku couldn't beet super janemba but ssj1 gogeta could. and because ssj3 is 8 times stronger than ssj1 we know its at leats 8 times stronger. we also know the potara fusion is even stronger so at the very least we can assume super vegetto is 10 times stronger than ssj3 goku. ssj4 is also ten times stronger than ssj3.

we also know that bills completely outclasses vegetto but ssjg goku keeps up to about 80% of bills strength. over all looking at the facts ssjg is stronger than ssj4.

I feel like the only one who watched the show.

First off, don't bring any other movies into this. The diffrence between the anime manga and movies make them 3 different stories. The manga is what akira wrote. It goes from the point were goku meets bulma all the way to when goku goes away with Ubb. After that, DBO takes up the story of the manga. The anime is what is mainly based off the manga but with differences and filler that make it a different story. It goes from goku and bulma al the way to the death of syn shenron. GT is not made by the creator of DB so it is canon to the manga. But in the anime gt is true. So in manga DBO is after dbz. But in anime, GT is after dbz.

So now that we know that we can continue on to the main topic here. Which form is stronger? The bad thing about this is that the movie is confirmed to be canon to both the anime and manga. So now we have a problem. In manga gt does not exist so if you follow that you are good. Ssj ssj2 ssj3 ssjg. That is your ssj forms. Goodbye!

Now if you follow the anime, continue reading

I feel like I'm the only one who watched the series. Part 2

Now for the anime fans lets discuss who is stronger based on FACTS!

It is stated that bills Is the strongest gt villan, so he beats baby and omega ect. By that logic ssjg is stronger. But then why did it not get used in gt? Well most pure saiyans were under baby's power in that arc so no ssjg then. And during shadow arch the had vegeta to do ssj4 gogeta do beat him. After that goku was thought dead so again unable to do so. And then the spirit bomb beat omega so that ends that. ( plus it takes a lot of time to do the fusion for ssjg and omega was careful to keep them from doing fusion).

Over all, ssjg is stronger cause bills is strongest villan. And goku said rildo was stronger than buu. He never said that was the strongest power he ever felt. Good bye!

^ And where was it stated Bills is the strongest villain in GT? Bills is not even IN Gt, he is in Z. Don't talk trash. Good bye!

Akira Toriyama: Dragon Ball GT is a Great SIDE-STORY (Spin-off) of original Dragon Ball--Dragon Box GT. The same opinion with the films of the 90s. Besides, is not taken into account for the new movie. End of Disscusion. 18:43, April 17, 2013 (UTC)

I like both transformation states equally, in their own unique ways, as SSJG & SSJ4 are meant to display the Ultimate Warrior. :+) ~

Aren't you all forgetting the requirements for them?

SS4 = Full blooded saiyan + have to go through golden ape transformation.

SSG = Requires 6 pure hearted saiyans

Now really, why are we arguing about this? Both situations can only happen during this time of the DBZ universe and it's got so many plotholes, it makes you think "...Wow...just wow."

Super Saiyan? In the beginning of DBZ, it was a legend to be just that itself!

Super Saiyan 2? More than 3 super saiyans. I thought that having even one alive was a legend in itself.

Super Saiyan 3? Ok, what? This is just getting absurd. Going back at the SS2 argument.

Now Super Saiyan 4? God? Come on, they're just pulling random crap out of their a**es now.

What kind of person is so sadistic to make the requirements SO high, and expect you (the Saiyans actually) to be able to get through all transformations in a lifetime...without dying. (which they already broke by getting revived by big leviathans–err dragons)

Hope you see my point.

Bad Arguing Everywhere

GT is not canon, so the argument about General Rilldo is completely irrelevant.  However, just because GT isn't canon, it doesn't make SSJG stronger than SSJ4.  Instead, you need to compare the feats of the two, and be comparative between the feats of the forms themselves, not the storyline.

However, given that the full extent of the SSJG hasn't even been shown (we don't know what Bills is fully capable of), and that SSJ4 Goku could defy Ultimate Shenron temporarily.  However, since Ultimate Shenron isn't part of canon (nor is his full powers known), no statement could be made at all.  The only way I can see any comparison even being possibly made is if we were to compare the power of Bills to Syn Shenron, who Goku could probably have defeated, considering the damage he later did to Omega. If SSJG Goku was more powerful than SSJ4, then it would stand to reason that Bills should be able to take the same hit that blew apart Omega Shenron.  Whether he could or not isn't known though, and even then, I'm making a massive assuption.

So really, stop trying to compare apples and oranges. There isn't a valid conclusion to this at all.

For those who are in extreme disbelief about the fact that AT didnt have much on DBGT.

-The benefit of the Dragon Ball quickly led to the creation of three animated television series (Dragon BallDragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT) by Toei Animation, feature-length animated movies, and video games. Unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball ZDragon Ball GT was not based on Akira Toriyama's original manga, instead being created by Toei Animation as a sequel.

It makes sense since the original atmostphere of DB is not present in GT. They made it look like a kiddie show by having kid characters lead the story. The scale of destruction is much less in GT compared to the earlier series. 

well i think goku ssj 4 is stronger than goku ssj god  he is supposed  to be stronger than vegeto 

People go here saying "hurr GT is not canon so your argument is invalid." but neither is the movie. The only thing full canon is the manga. If you consider movies canon, then GT is automatically canon too (because they were both made by Toei Animation).

Sandubadear (talk) 15:53, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

But it is.....

^AT has stated that THIS movie is canon

Really? Show me a source that says this.

Sandubadear (talk) 16:40, May 2, 2013 (UTC)

SSG strongest Super Saiyan form

First lets get some facts out of the way AT did not work on GT a lot in fact it was so bad towards the end that he had to come write the last few episodes to finish it out he made super saiyan 4 and he himself even did not like GT. To follow up AF is not nor ever was going to be a continuation of the DB it was a joke SJ put in one of the monthly magazines for April Fool (AF) get it so that's not real. Now back on to topic GT is not cannon to the manga or Anime due to not being in manga form for 1 and 2 for all the plot holes. It has been stated by AT that SSG is the strongest form of Super Saiyan which is why to make it fair it has a time limit just like fusion. So in short if AT the maker and Author of the DB universe says its the strongest it is get over it. That's like trying to tell the author of his own book that his charter is wrong. The movie is cannon to the anime based on time placement. Not a lot of DBZ movies are cannon to let you know think about time placement for each charter in these movies power and all. If you still disagree with me fine but I laid out my facts so ether you want to believe what you want or want to be ignorant both are fine.

SSG Strongest Super Saiyan Form part 2

Yes people are right about it not mattering that GT is not cannon but again AT said SSG is the strongest super saiyan form. Again ending that matter now one thing I forgot a lot of people are asking why of all the DBZ villains they were showing Goku beating Frieza here is the reason. The fish was saying a super saiyan god would beat bills (or whatever his name is) well what better way to figure out which remaining saiyan would have a chance at becoming a super saiyan god than by seeing which one defeat the one the strongest person the saiyan race has ever faced. Frieza enslaved them then wiped out almost all of them. Surly only a saiyan of a god like level would have a shot at killing someone like this when every other saiyan failed.

God vs SSJ4 and GT cannon

Personally I have never heard or seen anything from Akira Toriyama  that says GT is non cannon, I know the whole debate over not having manga version but it really don't care. I am a fan that takes GT as part of the series and given that SSJ4 was stated by chracters in the series as being the strongest form of the Super Saiyan ever, then it would be stronger than SSJGod. And on a side note, I take the manga and anime as two seperate cannons, meaning GT is and is not cannon, from my point of veiw.

SS4 vs SSG It's not Choices, its Conditions to meet.

Are you all freaking kidding me? Just because the editor in cheif left DBGT, doesnt make it NON canon at all! If he put in work and was produced with both the OFFICIAL logo and copyright name, than it exists as part of the Dragonball world! As for SS4 vs SSG just put two Goku's side by side. Okay, Goku can instantly go SS4 at any freaking moment just like with SS1, SS2, and SS3 although at a price with SS3. BUT!! SSG can only be used when you have pure Saiyans on the battlefield! A whole lot of them I might add! So let me get this straight, what is Goku supposed to do when he's fighting Super Android 13 by himself? He can't go SSG, the conditions arent met so of course it's SS4 time! Plus, when the hell did the Spirit Bomb become a freaking Super Saiyan form now and not just an attack!?

Getting back to the issue, it would take a battlefield full of Saiyans just to pull it off, do you really think SS4 would actually give you the time to try to transform? Not to mention how stupid it would look in an actual game. If by some miracle, and I do mean "miracle", he actually pulls it off, the form is ONLY stronger than SS3 in the series, it does not write off SS4, no matter how much you try to make it seem like an actual "god". It's just eye candy that the creator made to both satify your appetite and give you something that looks good.

Now I'm about to break it down and do some clarifications for you simpletons. If goku was turned into a child in GT, and everytime he went SS4 he broke the mighty power of the dragonballs that can grant wishes, then...why didnt he just ask the team to help him go "god" mode to break it for him? That's because it's a timeline that tries to write off GT but fails to do so! This form is completely new, regardless of the timeline, he just created it! Since it's only in DBZ it can never, ever be more stronger than whatever existed in GT and thats a fact! It just can't. If it tries to the whole series is broken! If SSG is stronger than SS4 than GT would have never needed to be created, and the great dragon Shenron would have hualed Goku off in the DBZ saga for him being too powerful!

So in conclusion, it's just like with every other cartoon with a movie showing after the timeline has past it, anything in the movie has to be weaker than what's in the main series or there is no need for character development. If they are making a new alternate ending or series type crap in the DBZ world that OFFICIALLY kills off the GT saga they have to announce it formally. Since there is no word of that, than the most powerful form is clear, SS4 is more powerful. (P.S. All during the DBZ saga SS forms with just the number is more powerful than the one with just the words. Case in point, Super Saiyan Ascendant and Legendary Super Saiyan, although powerful, only lead up to the numbered forms eventually.)         

Did akira toriyama create dragonball gt?

Answer:No. Akira Toriyama created Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z. He's directly responsible for the mangas, and worked closely on the production and writing for the shows with the teams at Toei. However, because Toriyama wanted to move away from Dragon ball to work on other projects, he allowed Toei to continue using his characters for GT, only occasionally sitting in on production meetings and passing along designs to the artists for the show. By the shows second season, (a.k.a. the Super 17 arc) between his own disgust and the fan rage, Toriyama wanted to pull the plug on the series, seeing as he owned the rights to the characters. Toei had a contract that gave them control for one more season, so in return, Toriyama jumped on GT in the final season, writing the Shadow Dragon arc to close out the series once and for all. He has not done any new canonical additions to the series despite 1000 internet rumors that he has. The closest thing to canon he accepts is the "Yo! Son Goku and his Friends Return!" TV special. He still produces for the video games and produced for DBZ Kai.

He's gone on record in interviews saying he disliked GT, has apologized for it, and has openly declared that it should not be regarded as part of the main continuity.


To all those that just writes off GT, shame on you! No matter how bad or how unliked a series is by its owner or fans, you cannot write off what has been published and created with the official brand name on it. No matter what you try to say about canon or non canon, it exists as a dragonball franchise name with SS4 Goku, Pan and even Giru action figures sold by the company as well! All series have made this mistake before, DMC 2 was the final timeline in DMC no matter what anyone says, but yet Dante is waaaaaaay stronger in DMC 3 & 4 and that is where they made their mistake. Now they can only go back in time and never forward to fix this timeline issue.

So, if SSG is indeed stronger than SS4, than this leaves a huge timeline gap that needs to be fixed. They have to either redo GT, or continue to go around GT and write it off officially to make things right. BUT! Since this is an anime move, this power is a "one time only" power! Just like with the Rainbow Rasengan and many other variations of Rasengan in Naruto's movies, it will never show up in the main series! SS4 wins by default because SSG will never happen again! Just like the Rainbow Rasengan vs the Regular Rasengan, I don't care how powerful it is, it is a one shotter! It's not reliable! That's why Gogeta is better than Vegito, and why they made SS4 Gogeta because it is reliable! Not a one shot end all, Goku and Vegeta is now Vegito forever and that's the end, who wants that? All of Goku's "MAIN" moveset is reliable, with the Spirit Bomb being his most reliable. Anything that needs a special "condition" to be used isnt reliable and doesnt need to be used in the main series.   

If another movie came out I really doubt he'll be going SSG mode, it'll be another form again! This argument is like the form Goku took in the Lord Slug movie vs the Kao Ken or SS1, it doesnt matter, it never happened again! It was just a one time event! Plus, when did the main character's power get more powerful in the anime Movie than in the actual anime? It doesn't make any sense. Either SSG is weaker than SS4, or the anime series will have to do an entire overhaul to clean this mess up. I'm just saying, the timeline will end up just like DMC at this rate if SSG is more powerful than SS4, and I doubt that any movie after this one will make any sense at all if that happened.       

Akira Toriyama himself said Dragonball GT is a non canon franchise so therefore I will safely conclude that SSJ4 never existed so Super Saiyan God is the strongest form of super saiyan. But if you are going to see which form is more powerful,I would say Super Saiyan God because he was still able to give Bills,who is the most powerful Dragonball character,a good battle even though Goku still lost...people who still say that Dragonball GT is canon,you are dead wrong

Let's See...

As far as DBGT being non-canon, I really don't care, if there is any proof that Toriyama has said that it isn't, please provide it, such as a link to a video, website, official source, etc. If not, do us all a favor and keep your mouth shut.

Getting back to the topic, I also don't give two f**ks if either of the two forms are stronger than each other or which is the strongest, but, for argument's sake, I'll state my opinion.

Let's make a comparison of the fight between Goku vs. The God of Destruction, Bills in Battle of Gods and Goku vs. Baby in DBGT for example.

Prior to becoming a SSJ God, Goku was unable to harm Bills, even in his strongest form of SSJ 3. However, after transforming into a SSJ God, Goku was able to fight Bills on a somewhat even level. Although he did not win, Goku left Bills exhausted after their battle. At this point, how would we know if Goku as a SSJ 4 would have done any better?

In the fight with Baby in DBGT, Goku faced a similar scenario, save for the fact he was a child. As a SSJ 3 having grown back his tail, Goku still managed not to deal any significant damage to Super Baby's 2nd form. As Goku ascended to SSJ 4, the tables were turned and Goku had reached a level of power to the point where Baby couldn't harm him until his transformation into a Great Ape. But this leaves the argument up for debate, being that we don't know how strong Baby is in comparison in to Bills, same goes for SSJ 4 Goku. Unless Akira Toriyama states otherwise or some official source has a comparison of power levels, this is a topic left to the opinion of the individual.

For now, I'll say the power levels of SSJ God and SSJ 4 are identical, SSJ God having a slight edge. Again, I don't care either way, only fan speculation just like the majority of the topics on this forum.

Super Saiyan God is stronger Akira Toriyama said that Super Saiyan God takes in so much ki to maintain that amount of Power thats why super saiyan god only lasts for minutes.

And also Bills is more powerfull the Broly in the movie Goku defeted Broly with the energy of SSJ Vegeta SSJ Gohan and Piccalo in Battle of the Gods they needed 6 Saiyans and Trunks,Goten,Gohan,Vegeta,Pan and Vegetas younger brother and that couldn't even defeat the god of Destruction.

Super Saiyan 4 vs Super Saiyan god

Super Saiyan god wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ssj4 is stronger

It don't matter if its non canon super sayain 4 is still stronger then super sayain god goku's power level in battle of gods as a ssj3 was 750,000,000,000 ls was 77,000,000,000,000 but when goku became a super sayain god his power level was 75,000,000,000,000 but when goku was at full power fighting golden great ape baby his power level was 650,000,000,000,000 much stronger then a super sayain god so stop being so fucking stupid. I have bad news for you. A god's energy is not recorded in fighting power, so using power levels is useless. Sorry friend.

Bills power level

Sorry I ment bills power level is 77,000,000,000,000

I don't understand

Would somebody please till me how a dbz ssjg goku could be stronger then a gt ssj4 goku i mean that just don't make seens I mean I know gt non came but come on u got to at met that sound stupid I mean if goku be came a ssjg after he became a ssj4 then of corse it would be stronger but trying to say anything form dbz is stronger then any form gt is guess dum but please prove it to me the ssjg goku is stronger then gt ssj4 goku an y is it non cane who said an if it is y are the DVDs an shows of it y does it even exses

I don't understand

Would somebody please till me how a dbz ssjg goku could be stronger then a gt ssj4 goku i mean that just don't make seens I mean I know gt non came but come on u got to at met that sound stupid I mean if goku be came a ssjg after he became a ssj4 then of corse it would be stronger but trying to say anything form dbz is stronger then any form gt is guess dum but please prove it to me the ssjg goku is stronger then gt ssj4 goku an y is it non cane who said an if it is y are the DVDs an shows of it y does it even exses


As much as I hate GT, I'd honestly have to give it to SSJ4. Let me explain as to why I believe this:

Goku, when facing General Rilldo, stated that he was even stronger than Majin Buu, mind you Rilldo was in his base form and apparently fought Goku on par. Meaning base GT Goku is on par with nearly a SSJ3 DBZ Goku. So, yes, GT base Goku would get slapped around by Bills. However! As a SSJ, his power is multiplied by 50. Then 2 times over by SSJ2, then 4 times over that by SSJ3, and finally, 10 times over by SSJ4. Do the math and you add up SSJ4 Goku being 1,600,000 times more powerful than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. I HIGHLY doubt that Bills was that much more powerful than SSJ3 Goku and for that matter, SSJG being near that. Like I said, I hate GT, but the math doesn't lie. SSJ4>SSJG.

Zel'no'di 14:22, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

You mean to say 1,600,000x DBZ base Goku^^ by your maths SSJ4 Goku would be 4000x stronger than DBZ SSJ3 Goku (which is accurate btw)

The real question, if you are ignoring canon/non-canon, is whether the Bills, the God of Destruction is stronger than Omega Shenron. I don't think you can make much of an argument for Shenron. Would SSJ4 be enough to defeat Bills? No, not if you accept that he is the God he's presented as. Would Omega Shenron be able to defeat Bills? Again, I don't believe so.

Honestly, the question is unfair. SSJ4 was made without consideration for SSG, obviously, it came before chronologically. SSG wasn't made with any references to SSJ4 as SSJ4 is never described in DBZ.

Its simple. No GT is not canon BUT ,canon or not, SSJ4 goku would easily defeat SSJG goku. Due mostly to the time limits of SSJG. Canonity is completely irrelevent in this question. who would win in a fight? the noncanon SSJ4 goku? or the canon SSJG goku? i say SSJ4.

The End of the Argument

So in determining whether SSJ4 or Super Saiyan God is stronger, the first step is to determine whether GT is canon or not.  Thus i bring you Akira Toriyama's intro to the Dragon Ball GT box set.

"My sincerest gratitude to all those who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD box.

Being a lazy bum by nature, I was absurdly happy when I managed to safely finish up Dragon Ball‘s serialization, and finally be released from Deadline Hell. The TV anime people wanted to continue for just a little bit more, but I [just couldn't do] any more than that… And so, I left the Dragon Ball anime completely up to the anime staff, story and all. That was “Dragon Ball GT“.

In car lingo, GT means “Gran Turismo”: a fast, high-powered car, in other words. But in this case, I had GT mean “Grand Touring”, a great journey, since the scenario was that they’d be running around the universe.

For GT, all I did was just come up with the title, design the initial main cast and some of the machines, and also do a few images. However, I was able to rest easy handing things over to the excellent staff, who had continued on Dragon Ball for all this time. In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is amazingly skilled, and mastered the peculiarities of my pictures in no time at all, to the point where there were even times when I couldn’t tell whether I had drawn a certain character design, or if he had. For instance, one of Nakatsuru-kun‘s designs was “Super Saiyan 4″, which appears in GT, and the picture above is a portrait that I drew looking off it. Did I draw it well?

Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together.”

Can you refute the statement that Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball?  No you can't.  GT is a side story.  It is not canon.  And don't even bring up how it seems Akira was happy with GT's production - of course he was!  If i was the creator of the dragon ball, i would also be very proud of the quality of work that was put in in  continuing my original work.  But this point is irrelevant.  Fans dislike GT not because of it's quality in and of itself, but because of it's inconsistencies and gap in quality from the legend that is Dragon Ball Z.  And alas, "Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball."

Alright, so Dragon Ball GT is not canon.  What about Battle of Gods?

"The global phenomenon Dragon Ball is being made into a movie using Toei Animation’s latest technology, consistently realized as a Toriyama work, with the original author Akira Toriyama himself deeply involved from the script stage for the first time. An episode from between the animation series “Z” and “GT”, or in other words from the blank decade between the end of the battle with Majin Buu in chapter 517 of the manga and chapter 518, will be depicted for the first time.

Such well-known and charming characters as Krillin, Piccolo, and Vegeta will all make an appearance. A new story in the official history of Dragon Ball is born, neither a spin-off nor a side-story, one that can be enjoyed by both children and parents, manga fans and anime fans."

Thus Dragon Ball Z Battle of Gods is Canon and GT is not.  Super Saiyan God is automatically stronger.  The end.  But for arguments sake, lets assume they are both canon.  Even so Super Saiyan God is far superior.  Here's some math for you uneducated folks.

Lets say Super Saiyan 3 Goku = x.  SSJ Gotenks is widely assumed to be the same strength as Super Saiyan 3 Goku so we can also say that SSJ Gotenks = x.

If SSJ Gotenks = x, then SSJ3 Gotenks = 8x, and SSJ4 Goku = 10x.

SSJ3 Gotenks = Super Buu <<< Ultimate Gohan, so  lets approximate Ultimate Gohan at 10x.(being generous)

Super Buu with Gohan absorbed is >>>>>>> just Gohan.

SSJ Vegito >>>> Buuhan.(Base Vegito was owning him as well in the Anime, but letes consider that filler.)

V Jump says that Bill's power "surpasses anyone in DBZ manga."  Thus Bills > SSJ Vegito  Thus Bills is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku, whom we had listed at 10x, and Super Saiyan God can fight fairly evenly with Bills so Super Saiyan God >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ4 Goku.  Another thing is, Bills one hitted Ultimate Gohan, whom we have as approximatly the same strength as Super Saiyan 4 Goku.  

All newcomers to this thread refer to this post.

The End The End.  

Duude, are you for real? SSJ4 Goku = Ultimate Gohan?

Duude are you for real?  Looks like the professor will once again have to break it down for the students.  IF you believe SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 like alot of people do, THEN mystic gohan is approximatly equal in power to SSJ4 Goku because 1x10 = 10 and 1 x 2 x4 = 8.  And Gohan is alot stronger than the number 8, so being generous we can give him a 10 as well, making him and SSJ4 Goku approximatly equal.  (The If..then statement is called conditional logic.)   Do you understand this math?  If not i would actually be glad to help you out.  For example 10 x1  rougly means "one ten", and thus if you only one ten , then you only have ten.  If you had two tens, then you would add the two tens together, which would give you 20.

IF YOU DON'T believe SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku, then TELL ME WHAT YOU BELIEVE.  Remember:  when you make a proposition, it's good common practice to state your reasoning so the other party can respond.  Remember that in the future.  So yeah tell me what you think, and i can help you with the math.  

Either way, all of this is something called a HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION.  Since Dragon Ball GT is not canon, SSJ4 doesn't exist and thus naturally cannot compete with Super Saiyan God, so this point is clear.  However we can take things into account hypothetically(that SSJ4 is real) because it is FUN TO DO SO, while at the same time being clear about the TRUTH OF THE MATTER.  Hope this helped.

How is SSJ Gotenks and SSJ3 Goku equal? Clearly, SSJ3 Goku is superior to SSJ Gotenks, its SSJ3 Gotenks that is stronger than SSJ3 Goku IN BUU SAGA. Currently, in Battle of the Gods, SSJ3 Goku is stronger than both Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks due to training. This was already proven in Wrath of the Dragon against Hirudegarn, Mr. Math dude.

And SSJ4 is 10x SSJ3, but SSJ4 GT Goku is not 10x SSJ3 DBZ Goku. SSJ4 GT Goku is 4000x stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku, due to SSJ3 DBZ Goku being equal to Base GT Goku. That basically means that if SSJ3 DBZ Goku = y, that means that SSJ4 GT Goku = 4000y.

The fact that SSJ3 Goku is currently stronger than Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks, that makes him: SSJ3 Goku>Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks. That makes SSJ3 Goku and Super Buutenks around the same league, with SSJ3 Goku being either weaker or stronger than Super Buutenks. That means that Super Buuhan and SSJ Vegito are still stronger than him.

V-Jump has offcially stated that Bills is stronger than SSJ Vegito although they did not specify by how much. SSJ God Goku put up a decent fight against Bills, who was only 30% stronger than him. Therefore, Bills>SSJ God Goku>SSJ Vegito>Super Buuhan>Super Buutenks ~ SSJ3 M14 Goku>Mystic Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks>SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

I have already mentioned that SSJ4 GT Goku was 4000x stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku, who is weaker than current M14 SSJ3 Goku. That means that SSJ4 GT Goku is less than 4000x stronger than M14 SSJ3 Goku (SSJ4 GT Goku = <4000x SSJ3 M14 Goku)

Due to this, we cannot really sum up how much stronger Bills is than SSJ Vegito simply because we don't know. Therefore, we cannot tell how much stronger SSJ God Goku is than SSJ Vegito/Gogeta and thus, the outcome remains inconclusive. However, Bills is stated to be a God of Destruction and cannot be sensed by mortals, no matter what their power. SSJ God Goku later found out that gods are in a separate dimension, which cannot be understood nor fought by any mortal unless they are transformed into a god.

Due to SSJ4 being a non-cannon transformation and a mortal one, SSJ God wins easily due to it being a godly transformation.

what i think

Ok first of all DB GT has nothing to do with DB Z. Secondly GT is suppose to be the story line after dragonball z. But if GT was apart of DB Z then no dought that ssj4 is stronger than ssjg plus goku have a limit to this power while ssj4 doesnt ssjg requires power from others. So ssjg would be considered ssj4 and ssj4gt would be ssj5.

Lets be real bills dont stand a chance against ssj4 if he waisted 70% of his enegy against ssjg. Bills is strong indeed but is not even strong than whis.

Whis is what everyone should be talking about whis taught bills and let the fight proceed against goku talk about how whis karate chopped bills and put him to sleep for three years. Talk about how goku can defeat whis. what if whis decided to get revenge if goku defeated bills.

Theres a god for every universe and gokus is considered the seventh so theres no dought that theres other gods out there thats just as strong or even stronger than bills and possibly whis. I would like to learn more about whis. So to sum it all up whis is considered the strongest in the DBZ series period. If gt was apart of dbz then it would be a different strory.

what i think

Ok first of all DB GT has nothing to do with DB Z. Secondly GT is suppose to be the story line after dragonball z. But if GT was apart of DB Z then no dought that ssj4 is stronger than ssjg plus goku have a limit to this power while ssj4 doesnt ssjg requires power from others. So ssjg would be considered ssj4 and ssj4gt would be ssj5.

Lets be real bills dont stand a chance against ssj4 if he waisted 70% of his enegy against ssjg. Bills is strong indeed but is not even strong than whis.

Whis is what everyone should be talking about whis taught bills and let the fight proceed against goku talk about how whis karate chopped bills and put him to sleep for three years. Talk about how goku can defeat whis. what if whis decided to get revenge if goku defeated bills.

Theres a god for every universe and gokus is considered the seventh so theres no dought that theres other gods out there thats just as strong or even stronger than bills and possibly whis. I would like to learn more about whis. So to sum it all up whis is considered the strongest in the DBZ series period. If gt was apart of dbz then it would be a different strory.

My Understanding...

This is how I perceive the situation, with an argument that goes beyond the whole canon/non-canon debate.

Why is it, in Battle of Gods, that the protagonists are led to believe ascending to SSG is the answer to fighting on equal terms with Bills, rather than ascending to SSJ4? By virtue of the lack of mention to SSJ4, it's arguable that the form really does not exist. 

However, I can turn this argument on its head, to support the notion that SSJ4 is stronger than SSG. Whilst SSJ4 is not mentioned in the movie (and numerous people have cited it as non-canon), this does not necessarily mean it does not exist. It is possible that SSJ4, at least at the time the movie takes place, is simply unknown territory, making SSJ4 a step higher in the Saiyan form hierarchy.

But then again, if you compare SSJ3 Goku's abilities against Bills, and GT SSJ3 Goku's abilities against Baby, you have grounds to argue that SSG is a whole lot stronger than SSJ4. But really, we must realise that the DB Universe is full of plotholes, and whilst this one is a biggie, we can just throw it to one side. That is, until the creators either officially denounce GT, or come up with some convenient workaround.

I agree with that guy ^

Simple, filosophy.

I think it is good question.

It think is simple.

First thing: Kid Goku GT SSJ3 was weaker than Son Goku SSJ3, you can see it by how long he can be in this form, how much energy he have, also he was a kid it is simple as that !!! In the battle with Baby Vegeta, Kid SSJ3 can trade punches but he was much weaker.

Second: After he transform SSJ4 (even he have power of an a adult SSJ4) he was not very much stronger than Baby Vegeta he can't just win with him by one combo or one Ki Blast, but differance between Goku SSJ3 and Bills was immense from different dimension also Mystic (Ultimate) Gohan (the same power level than SSJ3 or even stronger and don't lose energy) near the same way.ONE HIT Bills, Goku change from SSJ3 to Normal state even Baby Vegeta in GT when hit Kid Goku SSJ3 do not have that power.

Third: If we will took power levels saying that SSJ4 is like 10X SSJ3 then SSJG is some around 100X SSJ3. Maybe Goku GT have more power level than Goku at after End Z but Kid Goku GT ? Give me a break. Kid Goku where somthin little stronger than Vegeta GT hwo was much weaker than Vegeta at End Z.

Im not saying it is CANON or it isn't CANON or WHAT ? or WHO ? said if it is CANON, I'm just trying to figure out by simple deduction.

Four: You also can see that every person in DB GT (maybe except Uub) was weaker than in the end of DBZ. Gohan dosent have Mystic, Goten interesed in girls and do not train, Trunks was working in G. Corp and not train even Pan go to school, Vegeta was shoping with daughter hehehehe. Goku was a Kid. Another thing. I don't believe that SSJ4 much stronger than Vegitto SSJ or Gogeta SSJ maybe on the same level, but still Bills can take down them easily, maybe not with one finger or hand but still easily.

Five: If this six pure-hearted were pure blooded Saiyans like Goku or Vegeta. Then Goku in SSJG was much much stronger, not a Videl with Pan who wasn't even born and not saying about adult. We can imagine if we change pregnant Videl with Broly or King Vegeta hehehehe... And the most important thing SSJG is a sort of a gift with it you can absorp energy and can power your Normal and your Transformation state it is like a passive ability and also transformation.

How long he can be in SSJG and SSJ4 and how much it drains energy and with SSJ4 just you need a tail and maybe power level of a SSJ2 (Vegeta), SSJG need six pure-hearted saiyans and also SSJG is more PEACEfull (brain beats muscle) not ANGER. Hellooo !!! How much you need to a transformation gives you idea which form is more power full.

Like in sport peacefull, calm fighter is smarter, better fighter. Filosophy !!!


This matchup is pretty good but I would say that SSJ4 comes out on top, after a long hard battle. Mostly, I'm basing this on the time limit of the form but that doesn't hold any meaning if Goku can use the SSJG power EVEN AFTER losing the form and going normal SSJ and used the SSJG power against Bills in the Earth's atmosphere. But anyway, SSJ4 is supposed to be 10x stronger than SSJ3, meaning that it increases an average Saiyan's strength 4000x. Which means that SSJ4 GT Goku is 4000x stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku, as GT Base Goku was equal to SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

Do you guys really think that the SSJG increases SSJ3 DBZ Goku's strength over 4000x? I doubt it. I mean yeah hes stronger than Buuhan and is a bit stronger than SSJ Vegito so I guess that makes him the strongest character in DB and DBZ but since GT is not cannon, the SSJ4 is definitely stronger than SSJG unless of course they officially release the power increase being higher than 4000x. And Bills can probably be beat by SSJ3 Vegito, which was possible until the idiots destroyed the Potara Earrings. But then we have Gogeta, who is around Vegito's level.

It Depends

Are you talking about the forms in general or Goku? SSJG is a stronger form, however, if we're comparing SSJG Goku vs SSJ4 Goku, then I have to give this to SSJ4 Goku. The fact that GT Goku base form can beat SSJ3 Z Goku makes a huge difference. I'm not saying that SSJ4 Goku will own SSJG Goku. It will still be a good fight, but SSJ4 Goku will take the win. Other than that, I think SSJG is stronger.


I dont count ssj4 as canon because Gt is noncanon but if i say he is canon still ssjgod is stroger because it is GOD and a sily monkey-like ss form cant be stroger. Of course for me there is no fight because as i said before ssj4(for me) is NONcanon

Super Saiyan 4

I say that SSJ4 takes this as Kid Goku in GT is equal to SSJ3 Goku in DBZ, that means that SSJ4 Goku is like 4000x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in DBZ. I'm pretty sure that the SSJ God form does not increase his base strength to over 4000x stronger, as that is just plain ridiculous. At best, I would say that SSJG increases an SSJ3's power around 50x. This is because, after losing the SSJG form, Goku was still able to fight on par with Bills by using his SSJ form since he had absorbed the SSJ God power. And we know that GT Goku is equal to SSJ3 Goku, leading to my following stats:

GT Base Goku = SSJ3 DBZ Goku

Bills >= SSJ DBZ Goku (after absorbing the SSJG power)

Therefore, Bills >= SSJ DBZ Goku (after absorbing the SSJG power) = SSJG Goku

GT Base Goku = DBZ Base Goku (after absorbing the SSJG power)

Therefore, GT SSJ Goku = DBZ SSJ Goku (after absorbing the SSJG power)

That means that the SSJG Goku was 50x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, whereas SSJ4 Goku was 4000x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. See the difference? So yea, even though the SSJG form increases a SSJ3's power 5 times more than how much SSJ4 would increase a SSJ3's power, SSJ4 GT Goku will still be 80 times stronger than SSJG Goku.

That is completely incorrect. In fact, Kid Goku in GT was stated to be much weaker than base Goku at the end of Z. That was the whole reason Goku could barely use SSJ3, Goku is much stronger in Z. Besides, the discussion is about SSJG, not SSJ Goku after getting SSJG power, which is still different.

You can't just assume the multiplier of SSJG either. First off, you're wrong about Goku compared to GT Kid Goku, so SS4 is not '4000x SS3 Goku in Z' that's just not a thing. Second, your stats are really jumping the gun, you are really making some impressive leaps in logic here. None of your stats even connect to each other not to mention the basis for them is completely misinformed.

I haven't mentioned a single thing which is incorrect. Base GT Goku was equal to General Rildo, who he said was around Kid Buu's level who was equal to SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Due to that, Base GT Goku = SSJ3 DBZ Goku.

And the reason I'm including SSJ Goku after he learned the SSJG feeling is because he was able to fight with Bills similar to how he did with the SSJG power. Due to that, Bills >= SSJG Goku = SSJ Goku (having learned the SSJG feeling).

Now SSJ4 is basically 10x SSJ3, so SSJ4 GT Goku is 4000x stronger than Base GT Goku who is the same as SSJ3 DBZ Goku. Due to that, SSJ4 GT Goku = 40x Base GT Goku = 40x SSJ3 DBZ Goku

Now I'm assuming SSJ Goku (after having learned the SSJG feeling) is equal to SSJ GT Goku, otherwise how else did Goku get so strong in GT that his base was equal to his former SSJ3 form. It's not because of training otherwise how is it possible for him to multiply his base power by 400x so quickly in just 5 years. Due to that, SSJ Goku (after learning the SSJG feeling) = SSJ GT Goku

We already know that SSJG Goku = SSJ Goku (after learning the SSJG feeling) therefore, SSJ GT Goku = SSJG Goku. SSJ4 = 80x SSJ, which means that SSJ4 GT Goku = 80x SSJ Goku. Due to that, I conclude that SSJ4 GT Goku = 80x SSJ Goku = 80x SSJG Goku as SSJG Goku and SSJ GT Goku have around the same power level.

Well, you can't really compare SSJ Goku (after having learned the SSJG feeling) with SSJ GT Goku as that would be completely impractical. Goku lost the SSJG feeling after he exhausted his power against fighting Bills so there is nothing to say that SSJ GT Goku was as strong as SSJ Goku (after having learned the SSJG feeling).

Although, I do agree with your argument that SSJ4 GT Goku is 4000x stronger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku but again, Bills could be that much stronger than SSJ3 Goku. We don't really know. We just know that Bills is even stronger than SSJ Vegito, but then so is SSJ4 Goku. So we have to give this to SSJ God Goku as that was the form of Goku where he literally became a god while SSJ4 Goku is still a mortal. And based of feats, SSJ God Goku is strong enough to raise quadrillion tons whilst SSJ4 Goku struggled to hold a building.

For the Love of Super Saiyan God, Knock it off!

Okay a few things.

1: GT isn't canon, BUT isn't filler. It's just a what if scenario to the franchise. What I wish was in DBZ was the Shadow Dragons saga since DBZ abused the Dragon Balls to fix all of their problems.

2: I'm annoyed of the misconception of ALL anime is based of Manga, when it's not. Yes, both Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z is based of the manga and follows the story line, but due to the differences of pacing in Manga and Anime, both DB and DBZ had to have filler inside of it.(Like the 5 episode Frieza Fight when the planet will expload in 5 minutes, and Garlic Jr Saga.)

3: Super Saiyan God is supposed to be the Strongest form of Super Saiyan, where SSJ 4 is part of the what if scenario of GT and is weaker than God(Seriously a belief of a SSJ 4 form stronger than a GOD form is annoying and pointless)

4: While I'm having a hard time believing Battle of Gods is canon as it's a movie, but then some Movies can be canon to the Anime alone and not the Manga(See 2).

5: I agree Akira Toriyama probably would have like the DB franchise continued, but GT did some mistakes(Like unleashing Hell on Earth) that shouldn't of happened, and Toriyama had a hand in the last arc to at least redeem it in some small way. Still GT non-Canon/Non-Filler, just a what if.

Definition of Filler: Not part of the original storyline(if based of a title of the same name), and does nothing continue the story line.

To simply state it, Super Saiyan God is the strongest form. SSJ 4 isn't and will never be.

Artistic Kamen Rider (talk) 19:48, June 21, 2013 (UTC)Artistic Kamen Rider

Super saiyan God isn't a real god

why do people keep saying that SSGod is strong cause he is a god i mean king kai is a god and he is weaker than yamcha supreme kai is a supreme god and he still so weak "super saiyan god" is just a name i mean it can't be a real god cause in DBZ being a god is just a job so SS4>SSG

But the point is that Bills is a god of Destruction, which naturally makes him much stronger than the gods of creation. King Kai and Supreme Kai are weaker than the other Z fighters because they are gods of creation and they are not supposed to have incredibly strong powers as they CREATE, dont DESTROY. Bills' specialty is destruction which naturally makes his combat strength that much stronger. And the fact that SSJG Goku was able to keep up with him gives us the indication that he is actually stronger than SSJ4.

Don't know why I'm sucked into this.

Godly powers are subjective when it comes to Media. Having all powerful beings with no weakness can actually make people lose interest, unless found a way to make it work.

Super Saiyan God is apart of this, seeing as it has a time limit(possibly due to the amount of Ki Energy and strain it puts on the body) and can only be obtained with the combine energy of Six Pure Hearted Saiyans. For to have great power, there must be restrictions and costs.

Super Saiyan 4 would also be apart of this. GT Goku is a kid because of a wish gone wrong, and the power of Super Saiyan 4 has to physically make him grow into an adult form to handle the power. Plus, Goku needs his tail for said form while Super Saiyan God doesn't. Missing Tail = No Super Saiyan 4...until tail grows back, which takes a while.

Again, Wielders of Great Power have limits. Gods even have limits because of how the story is told.

GT is a what if world that actually loosely follows this because of mistakes of authors and those in charge of the project.

Can I say that z had more inconsistencies than gt. due to filler content and different dubs. Anyways ss4 is stronger because it came after BoG. plus its not a matter of canon it's who's stronger it's like who's stronger ss3 vegeta or fat buu one who is non canon and one who is canon. So my decision is ss4 is stronger

Z may have some inconsistencies in the anime, from filler and dubs, but Super Saiyan God is more powerful. A Super Saiyan God's power is a mix of Six Saiyans which makes it more powerful than the nonexistant Super Saiyan 4.

Few things to note before my actual opinion.

Okay so this argument is in every DB thing ever but here is the fact of the matter: GT is not cannon. Whether you liked GT or not (I actually did) it's not a part of the DB timeline, it did not happen, it wasn't a thing. It is part of the real world DB franchise yes, it has the official brand on it, but Toriyama had nothing to do with it, it is not a part of the cannon and is it's own cannon. GT is not a thing to DB, DBZ, DBZ: Battle of Gods, it has nothing to do with it. You can't say "oh well if you consider GT cannon then-" because it's not cannon, no matter what. Sorry to the people who think or hope it is, because it's not and never will be.

Now onto the actual discussion:

I think SSJG is stronger. In GT (again, in a separate, individual cannon) Goku was never so overwhelmed as to be stopped effortlessly without so much as a breath. No one was that great against SS3 Goku as a kid, and while SS3 Goku from Z is stronger, Bills was able to stop Goku with literally nothing and take him out in one hit. Not only that, but take out Gohan (who is stronger than SS3 Goku) and Gotenks (who is likely stronger or as strong as Goku) at the same time with nothing. Omega Shenron is also weaker than Bills, he has to be with how effortlessly Bills can destroy things that Omega had to use his strongest attack to blow up. 

That said, with Bills being stronger than anything, even Omega Shenron, and while SS4 Goku couldn't beat or even fight on par with Omega Shenron, plus the fact that SSG cleared the gap between SS3 Goku and Bills to be able to fight on par with him, SSJG is without a doubt stronger than SSJ4 in my opinion.

Gohan and Gotenks were not stronger than Goku in that movie. It took place even after Wrath of the Dragon, in which SSJ3 Goku is clearly seen being stronger than Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks due to severe training. And SSJ3 Goku as a kid is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Z, simply because Base Goku as a kid was equal to SSJ3 Goku in Z which means that in SSJ3, Kid Goku will be 8x stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Z. And SSJG is not stronger than SSJ4 as that means that Goku's power just increased 4000 times by the SSJG powerup, which is preposterous.

In My Opinion:

I would Say that super saiyan god is the strongest because he consists of 6 pure hearted saiyans. Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and Pan. 

Considering that Gohan is "supposed" to have an unstoppable power with in him, would that not fuel the ssG to an unstoppable level? Also, having Goku and Vegeta's fighting spirit would have to make him the toughest fighter out there. Then, just adding 3 more saiyans is ridiculous. 

How is SS4 Goku going to beat Vegetto?

Vegetto is stronger than Gogeta due to the bonus they get for using potara. Even if Goku fused with Hercule, that fusion is also going to be stronger than Goku himself, as Goku himself was willing to fuse with him since everyone else died.

SS1 Gogeta ( based off their power levels from the source books ) is already stronger than Omega Shenron, and he already beat both SS4 Goku and SS4 Vegeta.

Vegito is not stronger than Gogeta, they have the same power level of 2,500,000,000. The Elder Kai just said that the Potara Fusion would be more effective as it does not require the two fusers having any knowledge of the dance moves and there is also no need to match power levels. It is also better as they can fight for longer than 30 minutes without defusing. The Elder Kai never said anything about Vegito having a higher power level than Gogeta.

And even with 6 pure hearted saiyans, it's impossible for SSJG to multiply SSJ3 Goku's strength over 4000 which is how strong SSJ4 Goku is.


Come on plain and simple ssj1 ssj2 ssj3 than! Ssj4 than the great ape now let's see it says God for a reason because no one can reach that level. Goku is just on ssj4. Even if ssj4 is after ssg it doesn't mean its stronger goku needed a wish to become ssg and even after these years he just reaches ssj4 so no ssg is stronger period once a title is GOD there's nothing Over it only another god

Power Multipliers

The only thing that really pisses me off are the people who constantly spout the bullshit that is "GT isn't canon durr hurr". It doesn't have a manga, neither does Battle Of Gods. Also, Battle Of Gods doesn't prove that GT didn't happen in ANY sense. If Toriyama wanted to wipe GT from DragonBall history, he would've done it with Battle Of Gods, but he didn't. It even helps prove one thing in GT: Why Goku is ridiculously stronger than everyone else. After the initial SSJG transformation wore off, Goku could still use that power in his base and Super Saiyan forms. If that power boost was permanent, it would be still there in GT. Going off that logic, it would mean that Super Saiyan 4 is immensely more powerful than Super Saiyan God, since SSJG's power becomes Goku's base power level it would mean even Super Saiyan 1 is stronger than it. Overall here's what I think the multipliers of the forms are:

SSJ: 50x Base form

SSJ2: 2x SSJ

SSJ3: 4x SSJ2

SSJG: 10x SSJ3

Then in GT, SSJ4 = 10x GT SSJ3

So overall Super Saiyan 4 is 4000 times stronger than SSJG (which is itself 4000 times stronger than base form), making SSJ4 16,000,000 times stronger than Base form Goku in Z

My reasoning for the multipliers?

SSJ1-3's were confirmed in Daizenshuu

SSJ4's is through the fact that the 10x Kamehameha is 10x stronger than the True Kamehameha (SSJ3's strongest Kamehameha)

SSJG is the only one that I assumed myself.

Probably Super Saiyan God

Bills was stated to be the strongest character in DBZ (second only to Whis), meaning he surpassed the power of Super Vegito. Now after 10 years, Goku was WAY stronger than he was back in Z, but even as a super saiyan 4, he was only able to match the power of Vegito in base form (according to the DBGT Perfect Files). Considering that Goku back in Z (much weaker than his DBGT counterpart) was able to almost fight on par with Bills as a super saiyan god, it seems to me that SSJG would be the stronger form. Just think about it!

Lets just say Goku in Z was like 10,000,000 in base (I'm not trying to be accurate), Goku in GT was like 100,000,000, and Vegito is like 400,000,000,000. Well SSJ4 multiplies the saiyan's base form by 4000, so that would make GT Goku's power level 400,000,000,000 as well. This makes sense because (as I mentioned before) the DBGT Perfect Files state that Vegito is about the power of a super saiyan 4. Now Bills is stronger than SUPER Vegito, putting him at over 20,000,000,000,000 (400,000,000,000 times the super saiyan multiplier is 20,000,000,000,000)!!!! For Goku back during Z to even come close to matching that kind of strength as SSJG, the multiplier for the form would have to be (at most) 2,000,000!!! A multiplier of 2,000,000 is WAY larger than a multiplier of 4000, thus the super saiyan god form must be stronger.

(Also note that the power levels I suggested were just hypothetical, and that entire paragraph was only written to help readers see what I was trying to say in the first paragraph).

Evolve 20 (talk) 16:36, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Super saiyan god may be stronger

Canon and non canon aside. I don't know why people care so much to include that. It doesn't answer the question. That's like saying "broly is non canon so cell stronger". No, just no, that doesn't solve what we are trying to figure out. Anyway, Vegito was stated to be "perhaps even stronger than super saiyan 4!". We don't know how much stronger but it's definitely not by much. So lets say vegito is equal to ssj4 goku. Ssj god goku fought on par with bills. If bills really is stronger than vegito, then that would make god goku stronger than ssj4 goku.--Ssj3gogeta96 (talk) 17:20, July 14, 2013 (UTC)ssj3gogeta96

Super Saiyan GOD > Super Saiyan 4 BUT SSJ4 GT Goku> SSJG DBZ Goku

If you are debating whether Super Saiyan God Goku from the movie is stronger than SSJ4 Goku from the end of the GT series then SSJ4 Goku is much more powerful (I'll explain why in the following paragraphs). However, if you are debating which of the two forms are stronger between SSJG and SSJ4 in general, then I would have to go with Super Saiyan God. I will explain my reasons to both in the following paragraph. To help with my explanation, I will be using Vegito.

1) Firstly I will be explaining why I think SSJ GOD is more powerful than SSJ4. It is believed that Goku from DragonBall GT at his base form alone is stronger than goku at SSJ3 at the end of DBZ. During the Buu Saga of DBZ, base vegito was also stronger than SSJ3 goku. Though it wasn't given how much stronger both GT base Goku and base Vegito were stronger than SSJ3 Goku from DBZ, the difference is probably negligible so for the sake of argument, I'm going to say they are all about even. 

So: GT Base Goku = Base Vegito = SSJ3 DBZ Goku

According to the Kanzenshuu, the Super Saiyan Multipliers are:  SSJ = 50x Base

                                                        SJJ2 = 2x SSJ1

                                                        SSJ3 = 4x SSJ2

                                                        SSJ4 = 10x SSJ3

According to Akira Toriyama, Bills was about 4x stronger than super Vegito. By this logic, Bills would have been between an SSJ2 & SSJ3 Vegito/GT-Goku meaning he was around around 200x stonger than SSJ3 DBZ Goku. If DBZ Goku had turn SSJ4 in that movie, he still would not have stood a chance against Bills because his power would have only gone up 10x, leaving Bills still 20x stronger than Goku. However when Goku turned into SSJ GOD, he was going toe-to-toe with the monsterous Bills and even though he didn't come out victorious, he still pushed Bills to his limits and beyond so again -- for the sake of argument -- I will say they were about even. Therefore, SSJG = 20x SSJ4 (Give or take a couple multipliers). 

So if you were debating which transformation itself is stronger: SSJ GOD > SSJ4

2) Now that we've cleared which transformation is stronger, it's time I explain why I feel SSJ4 Goku from DBGT is stronger than SSJ GOD Goku from DBZ. To help me with this, I'm going to be using the 40ton example that Screw Attack used in their "Death Battle" episode to determine Goku's strength. Using the multiplier I had given for SSJ GOD, one could calculate Goku's strength when he had turned SSJG. Base= 40tons, SSJ= 2000tons, SSJ2= 4000tons, SSJ3=16,000, SSJ4=160,000tons & SSJG=3,200,000tons. Now assuming that Base GT Goku is equal to Base Vegito, he wouldn't even need to turn SSJ4 to defeat SSJG Goku of DBZ. Super Saiyan 3 would have been plenty! The fact that bills would have been weaker than GT SSJ3 Goku and is still stronger than SSG God Goku shows that SSJG Goku from DBZ would not have come close to SSJ4 Goku of GT.

I hope you people enjoyed reading my post and I hope it helped you find the answers you were looking for. Of course, I don't expect everyone to agree with because these were based on a lot of assumptions however, I do feel they were reasonable assumptions. This is all just my opinion and I am not saying this is factual at but I do believe it's the most reasonable answer & explanation I could possibley give any body. I appreciate anyone who had taken the time out to read this. Please feel free to reply and/or refute. :)


Thats's one way to look at it. Can't really argue with that logic. Although I think Vegito/Gogeta are the most powerful Z characters. I personally believe they would beat Bills in SSJ2 form. I would like to ask what you think about the LSSJ form. Not Broly, I know he is the only one to compare but if Goku attained the form do you think he could fight on par with a SSJG Goku at the end of DBZ or at the end of GT even. Unlimited ki/energy and keep getting stronger Also, when I put numbers in I got SSJG as about 30x stronger than SSJ4.  -UltimateSSJ1-

Very well done, I only have one question. How do you know Vegito's power so accurately? Sure, at base he's stronger than SSJ3 Goku. But by how much? I don't think you can just say they're about the same. I just dont see that Super Buu (Gohan absorbed)'s power is defined well enough for you to judge Vegito's power. But perhaps I'm wrong, good job regardless. Like UltimateSSJ1 here, I also got SSJG = 30x SSJ3 when I did the numbers. -Prouty123

I refigured some numbers,and I can't find where Akira Toriyama says that Bills is 4x stronger than Super Vegito. And there is no way to calculate the power of Vegito. Some people add power levels and some multiply. I add max power levels and multiply by 2. But I don't believe Akira Toriyama says that Bills is 4x stronger than Super Vegito. So we can't calculate how strong SSJG is. We just know SSJ3 Goku was no match for Bills, and as a SSJG he was.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 01:40, February 26, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

super saiyan god 

its a god damn god people:)


While I haven't seen the new movie with the Super Sayain God form I have read the plot of the movie and seen clips. I am not really impressed with the new transformation, but whatever.

A lot of people here argue that GT is not cannon and therefore cannot be used where others say that it can be used. I fall somewhere in between. I don't think GT was what Toriyama wanted. It was sloppy and slow at first and the villans were pretty lame, including the Shadow Dragons. But if there was 1 awesome thing about GT it was the Super Saiyan 4 transformation. It just looks so bad ass. Tall, muscular, aggressive, primal. It really does look like the "True Saiyan" form and I believe Toriyama recognizes that. 

This is where I believe that they are equal. I think that in the following movies Goku's going to try to find a way to obtain the same power that the Super Saiyan God had, but on his own. I think at that point Vegeta's going to bring up their tails and how it makes saiyans more powerful and then they'll ask Shenron to grow their tails back. Once regrown there will be comic relief with Trunks and Goten beig confised and scared, Piccolo remebering how Gohan turned into a Giant Ape and screaming "I thought I cut that off!!" and one of the wishes accidentally being used by Yamcha where he finally becomes rich.

It just makes sense. The Super Saiyan 4 was FAR more powerful then the Super Saiyan 3. While the energy level wasn't raised too far (Compared to the Sayain to SSJ, SSJ-SSJ2), the strength and physical attributes were, allowing for sustained energy usage at a high level. I could very easily see Goku turning into a Super Saiyan 4 once again saying that his power is just about equal to his Super Saiyan God form. It'll be nice for people who liked GT and give a nod to the past. Also it will allow them to re-use an awesome transformation, either updating it and keeping it the same. Either way in my personal opinion Super Saiyain 4 is as strong as the Super Saiyan God, except the SS4 gets it's power only from 1 Saiyan. 

SSj 4 vs Super Saiyan God

I think Super Saiyan God is more powerful because it is the combined strength of Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Pan. It has the power of 1 saiyan, 2 super saiyans, 2 super saiyan 2s and 1 super saiyan 3

But, super saiyan 4 has the power of Goku himself.

11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)Mukthish (talk) 11:34, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

The Proof Y'all Need

For those who still think AT actually designed SSJ4 and most of GT. Just read.

SSJ4/GT is not canon. You know it, I know it, everyone with sense knows it. Please stop trying to make it seem like it is.

Super Saiyan God is the be all/end all of the Saiyan race, SSJ4 is pretty much a hallucination. Not ragging on it, because I absolutely adore GT, but we can't really take it to be completely part of the timeline

possibly ssj4 and possibly ssj god

                                        Possibly ssj4 : first of all some of you writes off gt you should shamed of your self it doesint have to be based on the manga its still part of the dragon ball franchise AT had the DBGT creator continue the dragon ball timeline a great dragon ball would respect gt. Anyway ssjgod was  not good enough to defeat baby vegeta ssj4 was  otherwise  goku would use ssjgod to beat him. Possibly ssjgod: according to king Kai gods are the strongest beings and in the ssjgod transformation you are as strong as a god but maybe king Kai is wrong even though that he's a Kai he was wrong about the guarding of planet vegeta destroying it freiza realy did it

possibly ssj4 and possibly ssj god

                                        Possibly ssj4 : first of all some of you writes off gt you should shamed of your self it doesint have to be based on the manga its still part of the dragon ball franchise AT had the DBGT creator continue the dragon ball timeline a great dragon ball would respect gt. Anyway ssjgod was  not good enough to defeat baby vegeta ssj4 was  otherwise  goku would use ssjgod to beat him. Possibly ssjgod: according to king Kai gods are the strongest beings and in the ssjgod transformation you are as strong as a god but maybe king Kai is wrong even though that he's a Kai he was wrong about the guarding of planet vegeta destroying it freiza realy did it

Does the Super Saiyan God form seem more androgynous?

I wonder if the GT series will be replaced with a rebirth of the DBZ saga, with Pan as the first female lead of the franchise. Pan cannot become super saiyan, but the Super Saiyan God form, as mentioned in posts below, isn't technically a form of super saiyan at all. It's more of a massive power up which adds a hue of red/pink to the warriors aura and hair. It seems much more effeminate than any other form both in appearance and disposition. Just my own thoughts here, but it would be the perfect way to push Pan as a more influential element in a potential reinvisionment of the franchise. Didn't Nappa and Vegeta in Season 1(Japanese dub) refer to the mixture of human and saiyan blood as possibly becoming the ultimate breed of warrior? If Pan were able to sustain Super Saiyan God form for much longer than Goku because of her human blood, she could learn to harness it to unlock her true potential as the Earths greatest heroine! Hey, anything to replace GT, right?

Speaking to the comparison of Super Saiyan God vs SSJ4, no comparison can be made, and here's why. Goku, at the point of achieving SSJ4, was far stronger than he was at the time of achieving Super Saiyan God. Goku was training all those years, of course! GT Goku toyed with Cell and Frieza without transforming at all, and then beat them with one simple attack. GT Goku likely could have beaten Kid Buu without transforming, or using the Spirit Bomb. So, adding the SSJ4 to this already impressive level of power would probably make him a little stronger than Goku at the time he achieved Super Saiyan God. So, if we can agree that GT Goku has too high a power level to compare SSJ4 Goku to Super Saiyan God Goku, that raises another question: "If Super Saiyan God was so strong, why wouldn't Goku have used it to beat Baby or Shenron?" Remember that even if it were an option Goku admittedly did not like the transformation because it made him rely on everyone else's help, so as long as he were able to use another form that allowed him to win with his own abilities, even if it were slightly weaker, he would go that route. Goku commanded Kuririn to let Vegeta live so that he could fight him again, at the risk of Vegeta coming back and killing him and everone on Earth, just because Goku lost to Vegeta and he wanted to prove that he could win (I'm referring to the Japanese script, not the rediculously diplomatic english dub, lol.) In the end, we will never know how strong GT Goku would have been as a Super Saiyan God, because it never happened. I for one would love to see the GT series stricken from the books and the DBZ series re-ignited B)


I think Super Saiyan God is way powerful than Super Saiyan 4 that's why it is called God but Super Saiyan God has a time limit, while Super Saiyan 4 has a longer time than Super Saiyan God.

And I think Super Saiyan God can be very exhausting to Goku. But I think Super Saiyan God is way cooler if Goku learns how to acquire it or transform permanently, and/or combining Super Saiyan 4 with Super Saiyan God could be the coolest!

Super Son Goku (talk) 08:11, September 23, 2013 (UTC)SSACEGOD


1. A God of Destruction is inherantly more powerful than ANY mortal. I imagine that if we compared a mortal and billis and assuming that they had the exact same PL, I would say the Billis is more powerful, just because he is a god, and as a god, his energy is probably more potent/powerful/different than a mere mortals, hence why mortals are... well mortal, and cannot sense a God of Destruction's energy.

That being said, I think that when the SSJg Transformation went out, he ended up keeping some of the energy and power gained from the transformation, but not all of it. Some of it may have been locked away inside him, and then remaifested when when Goku got his tail back and went SSJ4. 

-Durzan Oct. 4th 2013

SSJG is stronger than SSJ4 regardless GT is fake or not

SSJG is stronger than SSJ4 If DBGT is fake or not lets just think simple. The discussion is about which form is stronger, NOT about rather DBGT is a fake story or not.So, think about this. DBGT Goku(adult) SSJ4 form and DBGT(adult) Goku SSJG form, the movie 'Battle of gods' stated that Birus the god of destruction only used 70% of his full strength when he was fighting DBZ SSJG Goku, and that time Goku was actually weaker then Uub, who is as strong as Kid Buu. So if DBGT Goku turns into a SSJG he will be stronger than Birus, because in DBGT Goku(adult) didn't had to transform to SSJ3 to fight Uub. Therefore if DBGT Goku(adult) turns into a SSJG form he will be stonger than Birus. But this doesn't proove anything about which is stronger. In the movie battle of gods Goku transformed into SSJ3 full power to fight Birus for the first time, and it didn't work on Birus he didn't use a lot of powers to defeat SSJ3 Goku(maybe about 1 or 3%), after that Goku transformed into SSJG and Birus only used 70% of his strength, that means SSJG is about 70x stronger than SSJ3. And if you look at the DBZ history 1 SSJ transformation is about 50x stronger than previous form. (Normal x 50 = SSJ, SSJ x 50 = SSJ2, SSJ2 x 50 = SSJ3(additional, Kaioken x 20 = Fake super saiyan)(The proof is that Goku told Vegeta that he could have defeated Fat Buu in his SSJ3 form when Vegeta couldn't do anything to Fat Buu with his SSJ2 form and the power form Babidi.)) So, SSJ4 is about 50x the SSJ3 form and SSJG is about 70x stronger than SSJ3, so SSJG is way more stronger than SSJ4.

WTF??? SSJ=50x base SSJ2=2x SSJ=100x base SSJ3=8x SSJ=4 SSJ2=400x base an how can you be sure that Bills used 1% of his power he could hve used 10% or 15% GBV6 I am GBV5 GokuBrolyVegeta. GBV7

18:44, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

ssj4 is stronger

In his Ssj4 form he has the red hair so he is in god mode and he has the power of the ape form. It's that simple .

Great Golden Ape+SSGod=SSJ4

In his Ssj4 form he has the red hair. So he is in god mode. and he has the power of the ape form. It's that simple .he needed the Ape to achieve god mode without help. which is what he wanted all along.

SSJ4 is way stronger than SSJ:God.

SSJ 1 is a power boost of the saiyan's base power. Some say x50 and others say x100. We will take x50 for simplistic reasons. Also, the great ape transformation is a x10 boost. Say Goku turned SSJ at birth. He was born with a power level of 2. His power level would have been 100 as an SSJ on the day of his birth or 20 as a great ape. Even Master Roshi could have beaten SSJ Goku if he attacked Earth while at this low power level. It was only after his whole life of training and fighting did his base become stronger. When Goku finally battled Frieza his power level was in the millions, so take that millions and time it by 50 to get the SSJ we all know.

Now flash forward a few years and Goku becomes stronger and stronger. When he fights Cell his base form is so much stronger than it was when he fought Frieza that his SSJ was stronger too because of it. Goku learning to master his power and control the ki and stay transformed a.k.a. FPSSJ isn't a transformation, but just a mastery mental and physical state. Goku also had the power to pump up his muscles to become ASSJ and USSJ but didn't because they cost too much power and fatigue his body. 

SSJ2 is then a x2 multiplier of SSJ1. So it's really a x100 multiplier to the base form. When Goku goes SSJ2 (dead at the time) his base form is also way stronger than it was when he fought Frieza and also stronger than when he fought Perfect Cell. His SSJ1 form could be close the power level of Gohan's SSJ2 despite being half the multiplier. This clearly means that Goku is way stronger than Gohan when he fights MSSJ2 Vageta.  

Then we have SSJ3. This is x4 as strong as SSJ2 or x8 SSJ1 or x400 times stronger than base form. It's not really known how strong Goku's base from is when he becomes SSJ3 but we know it must be high and maybe even close to the same power he had as an SSJ1 when fighting Frieza if not higher. So even though he is x8 stronger in power boost he might be x100 stronger when considering power levels.

Which now leads us to the point. SSJ God vs SSJ4. In Battle of the God's Goku's SSJ3 is owned by Bills on a level we've never seen before in DBZ. Despite this Vageta's SSJ2 was able to do more damage to Bills and even takes a hit that would have knocked SSJ3 Goku out. So this means that Base Vageta has gotten stronger than Base Goku and at a considerable amount or, that SSJ3 wasn't giving it his all and got his ass handed to him because of it and Vageta was in Blind Rage mode and his power just jumped like crazy for a short time because of it. Either way it was a cool little fight.

Then Goku goes "God". Goku's power, plus the others = God. Now the thing about God is that is wasn't strong enough to be beat Bills. Bills only used 70% of his power and it was a tie. God doesn't have a given power multiplier so it's not known how much stronger Goku became. God had been performed once before by 6 Saiyans who's power couldn't even be close to Goku's so this God had to be waaaaaaaaay weaker than Goku's SSJ: God. This is also stated by the fact that the other Saiyans won in the long run. These other evil Saiyans had average power levels of 1,000 - 8,000 with the top of the top elites being around 10,000 to 13,000. Even in their great ape form their boost would be x10 so at most 100,000 power level. The God would beat them but lost the war so we know he wasn't that strong. 


Flash forward to DBGT. Goku is shown to be fighting General Rilldo and matching him easily while in Base Form. He states that Rilldo is as strong as Buu (uhhhh so not needed). Back in DBZ it took Goku being SSJ3 to fight with Buu, so that means Base form Goku in GT is around or = to SSJ3 Goku from DBZ. That means Goku gets about 400 times stronger over the years at fighting Buu. This super over doing it power boost for Goku is unexplained and way over doing for the story line. Up until this Base forms would increase by considerable amounts but never x400s.

Now we have a Base Goku that is x400 times stronger than he was at the end of DBZ. So now we have him go SSJ3 that's x400 base form. To put it another way that's x160,000 stronger than Base Goku from the Buu saga.

Now let's turn him into a monkey and x10 that power. So now that's 160,000 x 10 = 1,600,000. That means when Goku becomes a Golden Ape he is 1,600,000 TIMES STRONGER than his base form from DBZ Buu Saga. 

SSJ:4 is all that power shrunk back down into humanoid form so it's still (Base power level x 400) x 10. 


Flash back to Battle of the Gods.... 

Goku is 30% weaker than Bills as a God..... Goku at the end of GT is 1,600,000 times stronger than he was when he was fighting Buu.... SSJ:4 is multiplier of x80 to SSJ1. God just uses 6 “pure hearted” Saiyans one of which is a fetus half Saiyan.

...... So please tell me how God is stronger than SSJ4?

EDIT: I forgot a point I also wanted to make. If Goku had gone God after going SSJ:4 then yes God would be stronger, but it happened in a timeline that was years before SSJ4 happened. Also another point I wanted to make. If Goku went SSJ4 the day he was born his power level would be. 8,000 or about the same as Nappa.

This is my opinion

I know it would clearly seem like ssj4 would be stronger but its impossible to tell thanks to all the plot holes. First off battle of the gods takes place before gt which honestly should have ended the series. But fact is ssj4 wasn't even capable of achieving in this time which relatively means ssj4 is stronger . Sadly power differs such a random pace its impossible to say.

   Ssj3 dbz goku could at least keep up with bills or put up a fight with him .
 Ssj3 gt goku couldn't touch baby vegeta at full power.
 But baby vegeta couldn't touch ssj4 goku. To many inconsistencies .  
Gt really is a what if series that could of been better if the writers
 payed any attention to dbz series. 

I didn't hate it though dbz was mainly filler episodes gt strayed from 
story had many potholes.
 I believe they are equal goku in gt is much stronger than dbz which means each form
 he takes is stronger than every form in dbz if he transformed into ssj god
 I believe it would be almost equal to ssj4
 .there's no way to tell for sure because it wasn't thought of yet
 and everyone's like why didn't he go god form to fight shenron?
 Why because it takes 6 saiyans it wasn't thought of yet and there's a time limit.
 But if goku did go god mode in gt and fight ssj4 in gt it would be almost equal
 except that god form is " timed" but if god goku ripped off ssj4 gokus tail
( which he should be more than capable considering god form is a small step
 down from ssj4) he would turn back to kid goku and god goku
 would destroy him. But if ssj4 goku held out until god goku time was

 up ssj4 goku would deffinately win. Its hard to know for real think about it.
 Soon as you see this everyone's like oh ssj4 for sure but ssj4 goku didn't
 beat shenron he had to fuse with vegeta . Bills said in dbz if god gokus form
 wasn't timed he'd be the strongest being in universe imagine god form in gt 
which never happened versus gt ssj4 . Its almost the same they both are not
 perfect due to the tail and timed form.

  In my opinion if goku went god form in
 gt in would almost equal ssj4 but if goku and

Fused at ssj4 gogeta would be stronger than ssj god. Which are both timed . But if they did fuse who is to say ssj god goku couldn't last until they unfused considering god goku in gt would be way stronger than god goku in dbz 

Especially considering gogeta as fusion would run out of time first

See where I'm going there's no facts noones knows its

All  personal opinion and what ifs. Most of your arguments are comparing ssj4 goku in GT to ssj god goku in DBZ think about how powerful ssj god goku would be at the end of GT if his power was 70 percent of bills which was the strongest Person goku fought in DBZ. Figure that out you cant because it never happened lol.

Math never lies, but what if we don't hold all the variables?

Well, DBGT base goku has around the same powerlevel as DBZ SSJ3 Goku.. So DBGT SSJ3 is 400x stronger than DBZ SSJ3. From that, DBGT SSJ4 is astonishingly 4,000x stronger than DBZ SSJ3. I don't care what you guys say, SSJG does NOT give more than a 4,000 times powerlevel boost over a PREVIOUS form.

So, in absolute terms, SSJ4 is undoubtely stronger than SSJG (at the times of their respective appearances). But is it possible to compare same level Gokus going through each transformation? It is never stated how much SSJG improves over base form (or over SSJ3, for that matter), so we can only speculate whether SSJG gives more than a 10 times boost over SSJ3, or not.

Since official sources give no further information, it's NOT possible do determine which transformation is greater.

Then again, Goku reverts to his base form after a little while, but continues to fight Bills on equal footing. The reason given is that Goku unconsciously learned the form's godly feeling; whether Goku's base form was tremendously boosted or it was just a temporary state is unclear. If that's the case, in which Goku's base is amped and learns to use and sense godly ki, then a SSJ4 transformation would indeed be phenomenal. Although a noticeable plot hole is that Goku goes SSJ while in that state (which should bump his power level by 50x), but doesn't brutally overkill Bills. HN s4mur41 (talk) 06:36, November 4, 2013 (UTC)

DBZ is better than DBGT! But the question is not if DBGT and SS4 are canon! THE QUESTION IS SS4 VS SSG!

By definition, with the term "canon" means only the original work, so the manga. The added scenes in the anime, the OAVs, additions in videogames, and the GT series, they are all filler.

However, regardless of whether the GT series is canonical or not, the only question is to determine what is the most powerful transformation: Super Saiyan 4 or Super Saiyan God.

PREMISE: I consider Dragon Ball Z and its OAVs 1000 times better than Dragon Ball GT. GT is truly horrible!

But these are facts, not opinions:

  • First Round
- Goku SS3 VS Bills => Bills wins easily
- Goku SS3 VS Baby (not Great Ape) => Baby wins easily
  • Second Round
- Goku SSG VS Bills => Goku is able to compete with Bills. But Bills wins without a scratch and without pant
- Goku SS4 VS Baby (not Great Ape) => Goku wins easily

Both situations are similar. The difference of power between Goku SS3 and Bills in DBZ is similar to the difference of power between Goku SS3 and Baby in DBGT. In both cases Goku is easily beaten. But the rise of power that gives SS4 is much higher than that which gives the SSG. Goku SS4 wins easily versus Baby, but Goku SSG lose again versus Bills.

In addition:

  • SS4 lasts much longer compared to SSG
  • Goku can become SS4 whenever he wants, while to become SSG he must absorb all times the power of six pure-hearted Saiyan
  • SS4 and SSG are both able to absorb energy attacks, but in addition SS4 becomes resistant to the attacks already suffered

REAPET: I consider Dragon Ball Z 1000 times better than Dragon Ball GT! But objectively, although this may not appeal to those who hate Dragon Ball GT, SS4 is better...

P.S.: Sorry for my english, I'm Italian. I translated with google ;) hehehe

Compare Bills to the Enemies in GT.....

If Bills is able to destroy whole planets and even galaxys with little effort, by virtue of simply being able to stand up to that, SSG would have to be stronger than SS4.

Golden Ape Baby, Super 17, and Omega Shenron, none of which possessed anywhere near the destructive potential as Bills, were able to hold their own against and, on occasion, surpass SS4 Goku in some way.

So yeah, Super Saiyan God should be more powerful than Super Saiyan 4.

If we want to attach numbers to some of this, our best estimate of Gokus power level comes from the Babidi Sage, where we are given 3,000,000 as his base form's power.

That means that:

SS Goku = 150,000,000     SS2 Goku = 300,000,000     SS3 Goku = 1,200,000,000

If SS4 is indeed 10x SS3, then SS4 Goku clocks in at 12,000,000,000

If Baby Vegeta as a Golden Ape is able to match SS4 Goku, that means that 2 people, each with a power level at least around 12 billion, are still only a threat to planets. Bills would seem to be more powerful than this, making anything that can put up a decent challenge against him more powerful as well.

And before anyone says it, yes, GT Goku should have a higher base power level than DBZ Goku. But you can't find an actual measurement, so unless I want to start pulling numbers completely out of nowhere, we have to use DBZ.

Theres no real point in coming up with these numbers though besides a bit of fun. The power levels are supposed to mean nothing after awhile.

BlueMew1234 (talk) 19:23, January 8, 2014 (UTC)BlueMew1234

Super Saiyan God VS Super Saiyan 4... depends! I think that the power level of the SSG isn't fixed!

The SSG's power level isn't fixed! A Saiyan becomes SSG when he absorbs energy from other 5 Saiyan with a pure heart, then the power level of SSG depends on not only user's power level, but depend on also the power level of the 5 Saiyan that give energy.

Exactly how the power of the Genkidama depends on the amount of energy absorbed. If the user absorbs all the energy of the universe, then the Genkidama is invincible. But if the user only absorbs the energy of a single flower, then the Genkidama is worth nothing. 

It's impossible that the power of SSG is always the same, whether the 5 donors each have a power level of 10 or if the 5 donors each have a power level of 1,000,000,000! It would not make sense!

From what we can see in the "battle of the gods", the SSG burns to the maximum all the Saiyan-energy possessed, the energy of user and the energy of 5 donors.

Goku can become SS3 alone. Then it's obvious that when he becomes SSG absorbing energy of other 5 Saiyan his strength is superior than that of its SS3.

For example, if Goku absorbs energy of 5 Saiyan each with the power level of Raditz, then his SSG has a power level lower than it would have if he absorbs energy of 5 Saiyan each with the power level of Gogeta. 

If the 5 Saiyan that give energy have each the power level of Gogeta SS4, then the SSG's power level is certainly stronger than an SS4. But if the 5 Saiyan that give energy have each the power level of Mr. Satan, then the SSG's power level is certainly weaker than an SS4.

Then SSG can be stronger than SS4, but only if he has absorbed enough energy from the other 5 Saiyan. If the 5 Saiyan that give energy are strong enough, then SSG is invincible. But if they are weak, then no.

But this is true:

  • SS4 lasts much longer compared to SSG
  • Goku can become SS4 whenever he wants, while to become SSG he must absorb all times the power of 5 pure-hearted Saiyan, and the opponent does not always expected that the absorption process is fulfilled. Bills deliberately waited because he wanted to see the SSG

P.S.:Sorry again for my english

Watch the anime, read the magna, then speak.

Can't believe this even got brought up. GT is part of DB Universe. (Anime) So it is after Battle of Gods and that would make SSJ4 Goku/Vegeta/Gogeta stronger than SSJG Goku. In the Manga GT doesn't exsist so there is no SSJ4 and SSJG is the strongest form Also base Goku GT is supposed to be equal with SSJ3 Goku at the end of DBZ.  So the form might be stronger and it depends on how strong the saiyan is at the time. SSJG Goku at end of DBZ is much weaker than SSJ4 Goku at end of DBGT. But a SSJG Goku at the end of DBGT might be stronger than a SSJ4 Goku at the end of DBGT.. Even though the Original Super Saiyan God couldn't beat a bunch of "evil" not "super" but "evil" saiyans due to the time limit the form had. Well Frieza first form destroyed all the saiyans with almost no effort in a matter of minutes. So that shows it totally depends on the saiyan.I personaly believe the LSSJ form to be the strongest. The form NOT BROLY.  But Anime SSJ4  Magna SSJG. -UltimateSSJ1-

Look at it this way.


The only confusion is beetween SSJ4 and SSJGOD. The SSJGOD is stronger but using the SSJ4 would be a wiser form to use in a battle. It lasts longer, so its more effective.

That depends on the Saiyan. SSJ4 lasts longer because Goku mastered it. With GT being the latter the SSJG Goku we know is not stronger than any SSJ4 to appear. Again though if Goku at the end of GT went SSJG that form might indeed be stronger than the SSJ4. If Goku went SSJ4 at the end of DBZ he probably still would have lost to Bills. But at the end of GT he would thrash Bills or Whiss. And if Broly is the only LSSJ then that is the correct order of of Saiyan forms.. -UltimaeSSJ1-

SSj4 is stronger!

Goku makes the SSJG power his own power according to Toriyama in this link.  Therefore, Goku had this strength going into GT.  His approval remains on the side-story or cannon however you see it the show is out there. In conclusion since this is a fictional show if you want to pretend GT doesn't count then yes, SSJG is stronger.  But as I see it GT exists and it would be a little late for Toriyama to back out now even if he wanted to. Sometimes when you make your bed you just have to sleep in it. In other words you don't come bakc from some things. It seems apparent to me that GT is in fact part of the Dragonball story.  The show however is spilt into three distinct story lines, so if you don't like one its "ok" to disregard.  But if one accepts the already approved, released, and viewed GT then SSJ4 is indeed the most powerful form of Goku.  I actually enjoyed GT and the Broly movies for that matter.

Correct. With GT being the latter that form would obviously be the stronger. But only due to the power levels of Goku at the times he reached the forms. —This unsigned comment was made by Ultimatessj1 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

Guys, we all know Super Saiyan God is stronger, but probably only by a little, it only matters on time, SSG has a time limit(and probably unlimited ki) while SS4 is like a regular Super Saiyan transformation, the better alternative is probably a full powered SS4 IF you're planning on a long battle with a strong as hell opponent, but, if you wanna get the job done with time to spare, a fully powered SSG would do the trick. Remember, these are my opinions, not facts. —This unsigned comment was made by Yondaime1964 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

We can't just assume SSJG has unlimited ki. —This unsigned comment was made by KamehamehaLFD (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

An in depth analysis

The pertinant question at hand IS NOT whether SSJ4 Goku circa Baby saga GT is or is not more powerful than SSJG Goku (obviously circa Battle of Gods). The question at hand IS which of the two transformations yield a greater increase in power, while retaining combat effectivness. That is, does the SSJG transformation yield more or less than a 10 x base increase in power? We'll examine the forms, their aparent power, and also we'll have to deal with GT's canon status. 

Before getting into the power multipliers, lets deal with combat effectivness. Similar to the "Ultimate SSJ1" and SSJ3 transformations, there is a drawback to the SSJG form. While Ultimate SSJ1 caused bulky, hindering muscles, and SSJ3 caused rapid energy depletion, SSJG's drawback is its time limit. With the exception of Goku, (remember we are dealing with the transformations themselves ONLY, not individual characters), the power of a SSJG can only be retained for a short period of time. Therefore, without getting into the actual power at all, SSJ4 may be the prefereable choice over SSJG merely because it can be maintained indefinitely (except when we're asleep, I guess). SSJG would have to be considerably more powerful to warrant using it instead. 

Now, I read many many times in this thread that SSJ4 Goku must be more powerful than SSJG Goku, simply because GT takes place after BoG, and thus Goku has retained the power of a SSJG in his base form. Thus, transforming into a SSJ4 yields still greater power. This thinking is flawed, and also not the correct question. This says nothing about the inherent power increase of the transformations, this comparison can only apply to Goku. Even so, if we were to only compare Goku's forms, it would still fall through. This is simply because the premise is flawed, GT does not occur in the same timeline as BoG. Akira DID work on GT; he wrote and designed much of the Shadow Dragon saga. However, Akira has also said that GT should not be considered part of "the main continuity." Therefore, the events of GT DID NOT occur after BoG. Goku DOES NOT have his God powers throughout GT. Does that mean GT is not canon? Kinda sorta. Think of them as different timelines, or universes (forget about DB Multiverse, it certainly doesn't count). All this means is we cannot use the otherwise sound logic at the head of this paragraph to prove SSJ4's superiority. 

Now for the tough bit. Our only chance of coming to any conclusion is by using the only moment of true comparison. We know how powerful a SSJ4 is compared to a SSJ3. What we don't know is how powerful a SSJG is compared to a SSJ3. The only way we could possibly tell, is by analyzing the power of Bills. This is because Bills gives us the only comparison between SSJG and SSJ3, as he fought both of them in BoG. Now, for SSJ4 it is widely accepted that the transformation multiplies the power of a SSJ3 by a factor of 10 (although I haven't a primary source to provide, you could use the wiki here to find one). 

SSJ4 = 10 x SSJ3 (remember, we are talking forms only. Goku's power increase to the level of SSJ3 at base form for GT is irrelevant) 

A very large power indeed. Unfortunately, SSJG may be a little trickier to estimate. According to Akira, the ratio of power between SSJG Goku and Bills is 3:5. Akira has also stated that Bills is powerful enough to easily destroy stars. It was mistakenly translated as galaxies, to the best of my knowledge Akira meant stars. Without some serious maths and GT investigation, this information is of little help to us. In order to make any sort of usable comparison, we have to express SSJG's power in terms of SSJ3's power (like terms, and all that). This is tricky at best, and maybe impossible. Assumptions must be made, given the lack of solid information. We know that Bills flicked SSJ3 Goku into submission, and effortlessly defended against all attacks. Such a gap in power has never been directly observed previously, aside from perhaps against LSSJ Broly. Meaning, the seperation between SSJ3 Goku and Lord Bills likely is a factor of at least 1:1000. That is my personal judgement, Bills is about 1000x more powerful than SSJ3 Goku judging by the way he dominated him in the beginning of the film, and his performance in the final battle, compared to all previous villians. Keep in mind this is using their maximum power, Bills likely only used a fraction of his power in the beginning of the film. If my judgement is accurate, using the ratio of powers given by Akira, we can conclude: 

SSJG Goku = 600 x SSJ3 Goku (still only comparing forms, it being Goku means nothing) 

It seems clear that SSJG is far more powerful than SSJ4. Props to you if you know why this is still not necessarily true. Goku trained on King Kai's planet throughout the movie between his first confrontation with Bills and his final battle. Yet the numbers we just calculated are in terms of SSJ3 circa DBZ (or the beginning of the film). Thus, we cannot rightly use the ratio of powers, as it compares Bills' power to that of SSJG Goku post-training, not pre-training. The fact is, we have no idea how much Goku's power increased in that time. But we do know he didn't have the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, so he had a very short time in which to train. He had, let's see.... the time it took Bills to leave King Kai's planet, arrive at Earth, attend Bulma's party, make Buu mad, then Bulma, then Vegeta, and beat them all up. Unless I'm missing something, that is within one day; six hours tops. Here I will make another judgement, I would wager Goku's power increased as much as 2 fold. That may be a high estimate, it could easily be less. But let's say his power doubled in that time. Thus, it would bring his power compared to Bills' up to 2:1000 (1:500). Modify our earlier estimate and we arrive at our final answer: 

SSJG = 300 x SSJ3  

SSJG = 120,000 x Base or 30 x SSJ4

Simply put, SSJ4 is a 10x power increase. In order for SSJG to be less than a 10x power increase, Goku would have had to of increased his base power over 50 fold in less than a day. Since that does not seem to be the case, SSJG > SSJ4. Even if you didn't buy my 1:1000 estimate, altering it until SSJ4 was stronger would be pretty doubious. Even if Bills was only 100x as strong as SSJ3, in order to make SSJG less than a 10x increase, Goku would have to of increased his base power by more than 5x in a few hours. I thought I was being generous by saying it doubled, so that is unlikely. Please feel free to correct me or add more information.—This unsigned comment was made by Prouty123 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

SSJG is absorbed into Goku's body which explains why Goku is so much stronger in GT. That doesn't answer the question about SSJG or SSJ4 being the stronger form, but SSJG is kind of like unlocking power as in the interview with Akira Toriyama, he says Goku wouldn't need to go SSJG again as he has that power. Now, I say Bills used 40% of his power to beat the Z fighters and SSJ3 Goku. That means his power level would be somewhere around 300,000 probably a little higher. If SSJ3 Goku is 4000 that means a SSJG he would be about 300,000. By this logic the SSJG is 7.5x stronger than SSJ4, but that is not the case. SSJG is only going to be used by Goku one time, and therefor what made him so strong in GT.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 01:57, February 26, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

Well I don't know where you're getting these numbers from. Power level of 300k is Bills as 40%? Certainly you're not saying he's weaker than Frieza. Regardless, you only address whether SSJG Goku is stronger than SSJ4 Goku. That is, as you mentioned, saying nothing towards which tranformation is more drastic. I addressed in one paragraph that GT does not exist within the continuity of DBZ and BoG. It exists seperately, as Toriyama has said. Therefore Goku did not absorb the power of the God form and subsequently have his SSJ3-equivalent strength in GT.

Even if they were in the same continuity, Goku would be much stronger than he is in GT. In his base form Goku had the same power as he did in SSJ3 form during his fight with Kid Buu, so the story goes. But I proved as best I could above that SSJG = 300 x SSJ3. Thus, he doen not have the power of a God in GT. And therefore, GT does not occur after Battle of Gods.—This unsigned comment was made by Prouty123 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

I do apologize for not clarifying that I was not using official power levels but power levels I used based off the SSJ Multipliers and the characters they fought. I have SSJ3 Goku as 4000. His base form would be 10. It is just easier to guestimate power levels this way. Not as many 0's. So with that said, It is based on Bills being about 75x stronger than SSJ3 Goku. And Toriyama not only approved of GT, he also helped in during the Shadow Dragon Saga. They are all part of the DB Universe, and as far as the anime is concerned, GT IS canon. Meaning that SSJ4 at the time of DBZ was still about 7.5x weaker than Bills. That is my opinion, as is your calculating of 300x SSJ3. But GT is part of the continuity like it or not. The BOG movie is a perfect explaination for Goku being so much stronger in GT.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 19:17, February 26, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

Toriyama working on GT doesn't automatically make it canon. The same logic would make most of the movies and even Online canon, and very little of those mesh with everything else.

The idea that GT and Battle of the Gods happen in the same timeline is also muddled by your numbers. If Bills is 75x SS3 Goku, that puts him at 90 billion. Since he only used 70% of his full power against Goku, that makes his power during his fight against Goku at 63 billion. This means that to match that, Goku has to be 21,000 times stronger than his base form just to match Bills.

So if Goku made the power of SSG his own, why is he only getting a 400x boost? Doesnt that seem a little low for a formerly 21,000 times boost? If SSG is boosting him to around 21,000x base, why even bother with SS4 which only gives 4,000x base?

GT and Battle of the Gods just don't mesh together very well.

BlueMew1234 (talk) 20:05, February 26, 2014 (UTC)BlueMew1234

Well said BlueMew, I agree. As you mentioned, Goku's base form attained a far higher power increase than 400x from the God tranformation. And so unless he stopped training (which he didn't) there's no way his power would be what it is in GT. Unless, GT and BoG happened in different timelines. It's pretty clear cut. Even if my own calculations were way too generous, this would still be the case. Goku is for sure stronger at the end of BoG than he is at the start of GT. I'd say Toriyama came pretty close to confirming that GT is not canon.—This unsigned comment was made by Prouty123 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

I understand what you guys are saying. But you don't understand what I'm saying. SSJ3 Goku DBZ is equal to Base GT Goku So, after absorbing the SSJG into his body, he became stronger. Not what the form increased his power too. His base form became stronger. SSJG Goku would thrash Base Goku GT. I don't deny that. But increase his power as by 4000x (SSJ4) and SSJG Goku is a 300,000. SSJ4 Goku GT is 16,000,000. This is based off SSJ3 Goku being a 4000 power level. Good point about Toriyama working on other things, and that doesn't make them canon. However, I accept GT and the Movies, it's just hard to place them in the story together. Many people consider DBO to be the next steps, but it is ultimately opinion.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 15:03, March 1, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

The idea that Base Goku in GT is as powerful as SS3 Goku in Z seems to stem only from his comments about Rilldo being as powerful as Kid Buu. That in itself shouldn't be enough evidence to support the idea that Goku's base form as a child is the same as him as an adult SS3.

Goku has been able to not only stand against, but defeat more powerful opponents before, so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say even if Rilldo was as powerful as Kid Buu, Goku wouldn't need to transform to just survive in the fight.

Not saying his power level didn't increase from Z to GT; just saying a 400x increase seems a little extreme.

When it comes to canon, there are some things that work and some things that don't. I feel GT and Battle of the Gods just don't work together, which means I treat them as seperate. It would be like trying to get Return of Cooler or Lord Slub placed properly in Z's timeline: sure, theres a place they can sort of go, but ultimately trying to work them in doesn't work.—This unsigned comment was made by BlueMew1234 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.

SSJ God a little to much hype.

3 Reason why SSJ4 is better.

1. Although it is a "God" power, King Kai is a "God". God means nothing in DBZ.

2. Original SSJ God couldn't defeat evil saiyans due to time limit. First form Frieza practically extinguished their race in minutes.

3. GT is the latter in the anime series. So, therefore SSJ4 Goku GT destroys/crushes/smashes SSJG Goku BoG.

Ok, I've calculated it out, and SSJ God is obviously stronger than Z SSJ3. So, after throwing random numbers together and comparing fighters and their fights. I have come up with SSJG is 650x Base.

SSJ Goten+SSJ Trunks+SSJ Gohan+SSJ2 Vegeta+SSJ3 Goku+ Videl and unborn Pan=SSJG.

When they transfered their powers to Goku they were all SSJ. Piccolo said that wasn't enough. So, SSJG took all their energy and created SSJG. Which would be like 5 SSJ's going into 8 SSJ's, plus Videl and Pan. So, SSJG would be equal to 13 SSJ's plus Videl and Pan. So, if base Goku is 10. Then as a SSJ he would be 500. SSJ3 is 4000, and SSJ God is 6500 plus Videl and Pan. As you can see it still is stronger than SSJ3. Also, SSJ3 Gotenks/Ultimate Gohan/Super Buu/ Kid Buu/ SSJ3 Goku were all around the same power level. In the anime Gohan was the strongest, but barely. And that was only until Wrath of the Dragon came out, and then SSJ3 Goku was the strongest in Z aside from Vegito or Gogeta. But the point is, that they weren't that much stronger than one another, but it still made a huge difference . Notably Gohan and Super Buu. Not too much of a difference in power, but Gohan was flawless. So, Beerus would be like 10,500, and by that only be 2x as strong as SSJ3 Goku, but that is more than enough to make a difference.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 04:04, March 11, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

1. This doesn't make SS4 better. It just means it's named differently.

2. Two completely seperate events. If there was a SSG at the time Freiza destroyed Planet Vegeta, I don't think the planet would have been blown up.

3. That makes the assumption that GT and Battle of the Gods happen in the same timeline. They do introduce plotholes into each other, which makes having them in the same timeline problematic.

As for your numbers, I don't really get what they mean. You say things like "5 SSJ's going into 8 SSJ's" and I'm not sure what any of it is supposed to prove in the end.

The idea that the combined power of the Saiyans is equivalent in some way to the power of the resulting Super Saiyan God is questionable at best considering the massive change in power by just adding Pan. Unless we want to make Pan some sort of vastly powerful child who trumps the power of the other Z fighters before even being born, then it seems it doesn't matter how powerful the Saiyans are when bringing forth a Super Saiyan God; only that they are pure of heart.

I always find how quickly people dismiss SSG in favor of SS4 strange due to how quickly SS4 becomes useless. Goku only defeats Baby due to assistance from Majuub while the others give him energy, and SS4 fails to defeat the next two major villains in GT. Ultimately, both forms aren't as powerful as we are lead to believe.

BlueMew1234 (talk) 15:55, March 11, 2014 (UTC)BlueMew1234

1. You are right, as I view SSJG as a power unlocking ability and not a transformation.

2. All though I agree with a SSJG being able to stop Frieza, the orginal couldn't stop a bunch of "evil" not super but "evil" saiyans. So, it would depend on how strong the Saiyan was at the time I suppose.

3. I do believe GT and BoG to be in the same timeline as the DB Universe is full of plot holes.

4. The numbers makes sense, but there is no way to verify that happened though. When I say 5 SSJ's went into 8 SSJ's, it's because Vegeta was a SSJ2, the equivalent of 2 SSJ's. Goten and Trunks were SSJ's. So, that is the power of 4 SSJ's so far. Gohan was also a SSJ or possibly a SSJ2, so that means that there is the power of 5 SSJ's. Goku as a SSJ3 is 8x a SSJ. So, that would combine to make the power of 13 (14 if Gohan is SSJ2) SSJ's. Now I know power levels are different for each person, so a SSJ Goten is not as much as a SSJ Goku, but it is all opinion. But the numbers add up.

5. I pesonally do not believe Pan was a huge power increase, but the reason Goku could become God since she is technically the only pure one being unborn. I do not think her as some unstoppable force, but just the perfect purity to cause Goku to achieve SSJG.

6. While I agree both forms are overrated, I simply put SSJ4 over SSJG only because GT is supposed to be the latter. Perhaps at the end of GT a SSJG Goku would be better, but I am not so sure as I think SSJG if it is  a transformation and not a way to unlock abilities, then I have calculated it as only 650x a base Saiyan.

As long as you believe them GT and BoG to be seperate timelines, then I will not be able to convince you anymore than you me. I just try to look at all of it as part of the DB Universe, and not hate on GT even if I think it was an abomination to the world.Ultimatessj1 (talk) 03:07, March 12, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta obviously is on the Precipice of the Super Saiyan God form

This user had this to say:

SSJ4= Super Saiyan God


Super Saiyan God comes in DBZ. So, technically, GT Goku can turn Super Saiyan God.

Sandubadear (talk) 16:21, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

  • - Almost - Super Saiyan 4 does not equal Super Saiyan God - but the SSJ4 Gogeta Fusion does.

You have to look at the characteristics:

1. The Super Saiyan God form has red hair as a physical characteristic - Super Saiyan 4, does not.

2. However, the Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta fusion does - As Goku and Vegeta fused as SSJ4's, their physical traits changed, with their bodyhair becoming lighter (almost as if atrophing) and their hair turned red.

When Goku and Vegeta fused in their SSJ4 states - they achieved a state of being, where they genetically stood on the Precipice of being in the Super Saiyan God state that Goku had been in, 40 years earlier.

The characteristics and traits tell everything that is obvious to know.—This unsigned comment was made by KryptoSaiyan (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!.KryptoSaiyan (talk) 19:44, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 4 Goku & Super Saiyan God Goku Comparison

Alright lets see here. Lets say Goku was at a Power Level of 10,000,000,000.

Super Saiyan : Base = 10,000,000,000 x 50 = 500,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 : Super Saiyan = 500,000,000,000 x 2 = 1,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 3 : Super Saiyan 2 = 1,000,000,000,000 x 4 = 4,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 4 : Super Saiyan 3 = 4,000,000,000,000 x 10 = 40,000,000,000,000


Bills (or Beerus as said in Dragon Ball Z Battle of Z) took out Super Saiyan 3 Goku with 2 hits. Now lets say Goku had already obtained the Super Saiyan 4 Form. Bills would have to do probably 20 hits to knock Goku out.

Though when Goku took on the form of Super Saiyan God Bills had to do all sorts of things to win. It was said that the God Of Destruction Beerus used 70% of his power to take Super Saiyan God Goku. Beerus only had to use a flick of a finger and a chop to take Super Saiyan 3 out. Beerus could do the same 10 more times or raise the power into that flick and chop by x10 to take out Super Saiyan 4. I assume Beerus was using 1-5% of his power agaist Super Saiyan 3. I could be wrong though.

I'll say for now Super Saiyan God is stronger but Super Saiyan 4 could be as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan God. I'll let you guys end this argument/debate.

I agree with you! Logically, if one flick can defeat SSJ3, then ten flicks would defeat SSJ4. And Bills needed 70% to defeat SSJ God. 70% is much more than ten flicks. Therefore, SSJ God > SSJ4

Prouty123 (talk) 13:32, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Kamehameha for the win!

in battle of the gods pan was in the womb so we can assume this is set before gt. i would like to point out that when pan helps goku control his great ape form goku turns into ssj4 so at this point goku has achieved both we can tell this because pan has grown up. when goku transforms old kai is amazed at goku's power and says ssj4 is the ultimate super saiyan form and this is after old kai experiences the enormous ki from both super saiyan forms. using this evidence i would say ssj4 is stronger but only just. also in previous forum subjects people have said omega shenron is stronger than bills so why wouldn't ssj god be used instead of ssj4 if omega is that strong. according to this omega<ssj4=bills<ssj god. i don't neccesarily believe this order is true because i think bills is stronger than omega but this is just what i think.

The Timeline Issue Explained

It is very painful to read so many people say that GT and BoG occur in the same timeline. It is so obvious that they do not, and I'll explain why.

In the movie, Battle of Gods, Goku transofrms into a SSJ God. And during the final fight with Bills, he transforms back, because the time limit ran out. And for a short time, he continued to fight Bills in his new base form. 

Watching the movie, you can see that once the time limit has run out, Goku in his upgraded base form manages to hold his own against Bills for a short time. Or at least, Bills isn't able to immediatly knock him out. Whereas at the beginning of the film, on King Kai's planet, SSJ3 Goku was out in 2 hits. This would show conclusively that Goku's base form after the God transformation is stronger than his SSJ3 form was previously.

As fans of GT will tell you, at the beginning of GT, his base form was about equal to his SSJ3 form previously. See the problem? If that is true, it would mean that over the several years between BoG and GT, Goku's strength actually decreased slightly. And to that I say not flipping likely! If they occured in the same timeline, as so many of you suggest, Goku should be MUCH stronger in GT than he actually is in GT. Goku even said himself that he learned a lot from training Uub, he was not taking a nap!

There is only one possible saving grace for you, GT fans. You could argue that the reason for this is his child body. You might say his base was much more powerful than SSJ3 was previously, but his child body decreased his power down to that of SSJ3. Although I do not think that could be the case. From what I understand, his God powers are not affected by the state of his body (since his muscles actually got smaller in God form, muscle size doesn't actually matter). So the only disadvantage to his small body was his inability to maintain SSJ3 form, because it is so demanding on the body. His other forms, including his God powers, are not affected. So GT is still incompatible with BoG.

Prouty123 (talk) 13:21, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Dragon Ball GT canon debate.

I think GT is canon. I remember reading somewhere that GT is set in one of dragon Balls many alternate universes. So GT IS canon, and it does follow the DBZ story, it just doesn't follow Battle of the Gods, and therefor is from another parallel universe.


GT is non cannon and it could never happen because…

  1. Pilaf is dead they said everyone who died who isnt evil and pilaf is evil
  2. vegeta cannot be controlled as seen when babidi tried it who knows what he is doing unlike baby who was like 1 month old
  3. goku pan and trunks get beat up by worms and other things they could easily kill goku forgets how to go ssj for the first episodes which even 10-12 year olds can do his ssj3 only lasted for 2 minutes when it lasts for about ten for gotenks fusion or not gotenks is a 7 year old half saiyan.
  4. how did an android open the gates to HFIL and how was other 17 created aaaaaaannnnd how was 17s memories messed with from HFIL the oly connection gero had was the bomb which is gone now.
  5. namekian dragon balls show up on the radar but not black star and when kamiccolo was made the dragon balls became inert why not these ones some might argue that kami created them before piccolo and kami split they made the dragon balls so when they seperated they became inert then when they fused again the dragon balls became active gain logical but
  • majin buu saga and battle of gods they should have acidently found one when they went searching
  • kami fuse with piccolo jr so they were still different people.

6. Nameks dragon balls have been around for so much longer and theres never became black smoke.

im done

I have the Answer!

Okay, I don't go here, I never did. But whatever, I have your Answer and It SHOULD keep everyone happy. Alright Check it out. The super Saiyan God transformation requires 6 pure hearted Saiyans, right? Let me present Exhibit A.
2011-11-16 222949
Well lets count, 1, 2, 3, 4... and 5 bugger we're one short, but hold on, whose this? Exhibit B.
Hey look! another purehearted Saiyan (for like the first time ever). and now lets see what do we end up with? Exhibit C.
Well would you look at that! and hey look his hair changed color, thats weird, why would it do that, both Goku and Vegetas hair were black before they fused, why on earth would it spontaneously turn red? Wait, who else got red hair when he reached a super high power level? Exhibit D.
In Conclusion, yes you are all right, SSJG Goku > SSJ4 Goku. BUT SSJ4 Gogeta = SSJG Goku. It all makes sense! Why else would the four Saiyans all stand around Goku like that to give him energy. They never did it before, they never needed to. Then when Vegeta showed up, they got their 6th Saiyan and and Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was actually a Super Saiyan God. YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!! I rest my case, and return to my retirement. Long Live the Fighters! --BiggsandWedge15:39, September 11, 2014 (UTC)

Solving the problems

GT is both canon and non-canon at the same time. It is not canon to "the manga series", and is instead canon to "the animated series"; they are separate things and need to be treated as such. It should be noted that noone seems to care for the various differences between the original Japanese version of the anime versus the English localization of it that was actually finished, despite the fact that these "minor details" add up to as much as all that "filler" does.

The reason why people swear it's non-canon is because of a strange bandwagon that's developed against it, leading to the various (mistaken) beliefs that we all know too well. Someone is always trying to claim that Toriyama said he hated this and fanmail said they hated that, but noone's ever been able to even link to an interview; Tomino, creator of a large part of Gundam, is commonly given the same treatment. See also: Gundam ZZ!

Not only that, but even if Toriyama did say such things, he had about as much to do with the anime and all those movies as he did with GT, so you may as well call the entire anime "filler" (as you should) and be done with it. Let's also not get started with the idea of respectfully disagreeing with the guy, because it's not like GT is particularly worse than Z (it's objectively on par and I'd say it's slightly better). Battle of Gods is an exception to everything, an attempt by Toriyama to do anime himself; it may as well be separate from the entire anime, including all previous movies.

Considering that Battle of Gods is supposed to be totally separately from GT, its hard to compare them at all, but... I have reason to believe that SS God is somewhere in-between SS3 and SS4, as its design and technical placement indicates. It's probably better thought of as something like the Legendary Super Saiyan, a specialty transformation that's more symbolic than anything else. I'd guess that on that scale where SSG is considered a 6, SS4 might be an 8 or a 9; maybe the new movie should be a Beerus rematch and take place after GT!

Aside from all of this, the fact that Goku can "learn" the God form should be taken into account. I like the earlier post that talks about the huge power increase between Z and GT and that God is fundamentally stronger due to its nature. I don't think Toriyama not actually designing SS4 is remotely relevant except to one's personal attachment to the silly anti-GT bandwagon. Despatche (talk) 02:09, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Proof that SSJG was and will always be stronger then SSJ4

Wow there are a lot of GT fan boys so Let me put this to rest.

Interview Stating that GT is a Non - Canon Side story:

ドラゴンボールDVD BOXを買っていただいたみなさん、ほんとうにありがとうございます。  I am truly thankful to all of you who bought this Dragon Ball GT DVD Box. 

連載していた ドラゴンボールが無事終了し、本来なまけもののボクは やっと しめきり地獄から解放されめちゃめちゃ 喜んでいました。  Having quietly ended Dragon Ball in serialization, I, who am lazy by nature, was happy to finally be liberated from Deadline Hell. 

テレビアニメの方はもうすこし続けたいとのことでしたが、ボクはもうこれ以上は…。というわけでドラゴンボールのアニメはストーリーも含め、すっかりアニメスタッフの方々におまかせすることになったのです。  The people from the TV anime were wanting to continue just a little further, but since I didn't want to do any more than I already had, I ended up leaving everything, including the story, up to the people on the anime staff. 

それが『ドラゴンボールGT』です。  That is "Dragon Ball GT". 

GTというのはクルマ用語で「グランツーリスモ」つまり速くて高性能なクルマってことですが、この場合は宇宙を駆けまわるっていう設定でしたので「グランドツーリング」壮大な旅という意味を込んでGTとしました。  "GT" is an automotive term, "gran turismo" -- in other words, a fast, powerful car. But in this case, since the plan was to be running all around the universe, I made it GT, carrying the meaning of a great journey, "grand touring." 

GTでボクがやったことといえば このタイトルと最初の主要メンバー、一部のメカデザインと数枚のイメージカットだけですが、ずっとドラゴンボールを続けていただいてきた優秀なスタッフのみなさんなので 安心して おまかせすることができたのです。  In GT, the only contributions that I made were the title, the initial main character designs, some of the mecha designs, and a number of image cuts. But thanks to the excellent staff that I was having keep continuing Dragon Ball, I was able to relax and leave it to them. 

とくに、アニメーターの中鶴くんは すごい腕前で、ボクの絵のクセなんかをあっというまに会得してしまい、ときどき自分でも このキャラデザインを描いたのは、ボクか?中鶴くんか? などとわからなくなることがあったりするぐらいです。  In particular, the animator Nakatsuru-kun is so skilled, and has such understanding of the peculiarities of my drawings, that there have been times that even I have been like, "Did I draw this character design, or did Nakatsuru-kun?," not being able to tell the difference. 

たとえば このGTに登場する『スーパーサイヤ人4』というのは中鶴くんのデザインで、上に描いた絵は、ボクがそれを見て描いた 似顔絵なんです。うまく描いたでしょうか?  For example, "Super Saiyan 4," which appears in GT, was Nakatsuru-kun's design. The image I drew above is the likeness I made after looking at it. Did I do a good job? 

原作 ドラゴンボールの 壮大なサイドストーリーであるドラゴンボールGTを ボクといっしょに楽しく観ていただければ 幸いです。  If you are able, along with me, to enjoy watching the original Dragon Ball's grand side-story Dragon Ball GT, you will be pleased. 

With this stated that means the reason Goku never turned SSJG in GT is because GT was not part of the original story. Further more In the "Battle of the Gods" It is stated that Beerus is undetectable because he is on another level that exists outside the realm of Ki, He uses God Ki, And to say that SSJ4 Goku is stronger then SSJG would be to say that he has God Energy. Which he does not because if SSJ4 Goku had God energy then Super 17 would have not be able to Absorb his Ki Because Super 17 Absorbs Ki. With this said Akira also states that Goku will never turn super saiyan 2-3 again. If that was stated then that means that Goku has only scratched the surface of his God mode powers. So in closing, If SSJ4 DID exist in the same realm as the Original story then he would be much weaker then SSJG because he would still only be a user of Ki which is far weaker then God Energy.

  • There are no reasons to fight about it , The words of the man who created the Anime in the first place states that SSJG was the original Idea and SSJ4 was something for the side story "Much Like the flash Side ways episodes of LOST, GT was just a mere dream*


-  According to the anime comics for Dragon Ball GT: A Hero's Legacy, SSJ Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Goku.  (Hopefully, you know Japanese)

   SSJ Vegito > SSJ4 Goku

-  In the extended edition of Battle of Gods, after SSJ3 Goku is beaten by Beerus, Goku says that even if he and Vegeta fused, they still wouldn't be match for Beerus. (Skip to 4:17) (Subtitled in Spanish. It was the only subtitled video I could find, but I'm sure that more of you know more Spanish than Japanese)

    Beerus > SSJ Vegito/Gogeta > SSJ4 Goku

-  SSJG Goku managed to fight on par with Beerus, but he still lost.

   Beerus > SSJG Goku > SSJ Vegito/Gogeta > SSJ4 Goku

There you have it.

In Term of Power Level, Definitely Super Saiyan GOD far beyond >> Super Saiyan 4. Bills or Beruz , God of destruction is a second strongest in the 7th universe , at the end of the fight he told goku that actuallty there are 12 universe and he is god of destruction at the 7th universe. the second strongest at 7th universe after his martial art master 'Whiz'. then Super Saiyan GOD would be no 3. But at the other universe there are still stronger being still not revealed yet.

SSJGOD >> Super Saiyan 4

Bills/Beerus >> Super Saiyan GOD

Whiz >> Bills/Beerus

Golden Great Ape = 1000x base

Super Saiyan 4 = 4000x base

Super Saiyan GOD = 20,000x base

Akira Toriyama confirmed officialy in term of power level Super Saiyan GOD would be 6, Beerus = 10 and Whiz = 15.


Bills or Beerus God of Destruction = 10/6 x 20.000x base = +- 33333.3 Base

Whiz = 15/6 x 20.000x base = 50.000 base


It would make the most sense for ssj4 to be stronger & here is why.......

The 5 year gap that passed between dbz and gt, Goku trained growing stronger and stronger. He also had Ubb as a sparring partner which most likely benefited his training progress even more. As we can see in dbz, when Goku trained with Gohan, Gohan pushed Goku to new heights, so imagine with Ubb having kid buu's strength, how much of an impct he had on Goku's strength increase. 

With all of that training, even though he reverted back into a kid, Goku gt>>>>>>Goku dbz.

Gt Goku's powerlevel also grew during the numerous fights he's had especially against Omega Shenron.

So just imagine the dept of power Goku's ssj4 form holds.

ssj4 Goku is miles beyond ssjGod

SS4 ofcourse is MUCH stronger.

First of all to all those who say SS4 doesn't matter because it's GT - you're wrong. Akira allowed Toei to continue making series, therefore anything that happens in GT obviously counts.

And SS4 is much stronger than SSG because it would be ridiculous if in DBZ Goku would be stronger than many years after that in GT. There would be no logic at all.

Goku couldn't do any harm to evil god because you need to be god yourself to do any harm to other god. And when he became god, the fight became fair. 20:05, January 5, 2015 (UTC)

This is a pointless argument (Canon)

The question is SSJ4 vs Super Saiyan God, which is stronger


Measure strengths and feats, not Akira Toryama didn't directly write it kinda thing. It's like Aruging who would win Batman or Superman and saying that Since the Batman Writers didn't write Superman then Batman would win, which is not true.

Keep the topic on track guys!

Cebi (talk) 08:11, March 3, 2015 (UTC)

You people...

Are completely retarded... SSJ4 was said to be "possibly stronger than vegito(his base form)" It is officially confirmed by Goku that not even Super Vegito could beat Bills who is 30% stronger than SSJG Goku. Therefor SSJG is still stronger than SSJ4, even in the anime continuity... making the battle of gods movie pretty much retconned GT entirely(which by the way is just a side story not linked to the canon continuity). Now it would probably be tedious, but if you could get the stats from Zenoverse and Heroes forGoku SSJ3, SSJG and SSJ4 we could use that as a way to determine the difference. Somebody should really do that. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 16:45, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

Definitive Proof for Why SSG Wins - I Challenge You to Disprove My Answer

After such a ridiculously long thread, I'd like to make some simple conclusions based on pure facts (comparisons, rather than sketchy multiplier estimates), as per the sources used in this wiki. If you disagree with a fact and wish to challenge the authority of its source, feel free show me a more authoritative source that contradicts it. Then, go and correct the facts from the actual pages on this wikia.

N.B. It is ridiculous to say that the canonicity of GT has any bearing on the answer. SSJ4 was only introduced in GT, so disregarding GT would make this question completely meaningless. The whole point of the question is: assuming that SSJ4 "existed" (which inherently requires assuming that GT "existed" too), would it be stronger than a SSG? Whether or not you consider GT to be canon, you have to entertain the idea that it IS canon if you even want to make meaning of the question. The same goes for Battle of the Gods.

Definitive Proof for why SSG > SSJ4

  • Fact - Obtained from Gogeta's page: "In the second Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files volume, Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta is said to be dozens of times stronger than a regular Super Saiyan 4 (while Vegito is said to perhaps be in the league of a Super Saiyan 4 in the anime comics for Dragon Ball GT: A Hero's Legacy)."
    • Since: Base Vegito ≅ a regular SSJ4 and SSJ Vegito > Base Vegito (for obvious reasons)
    • Therefore (conclusion 1): SSJ Vegito > a regular SSJ4
    • Also: SSJ4 Gogeta > a regular SSJ4 (by "dozens" of times)
  • Fact - Obtained from the rigorous power levels page: "SSJ4 Gogeta's power level is 10x stronger than that of SSJ Gogeta (from Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha)."
    • Since: SSJ4 Gogeta > SSJ Gogeta (by 10 times) and SSJ4 Gogeta > a regular SSJ4 (by "dozens" of times)
    • Therefore (conclusion 2): SSJ Gogeta > a regular SSJ4
  • Fact - Also from Beerus's page: "After being defeated by the heavily suppressed Beerus, Goku mentions that not even a fusion of himself and Vegeta would be enough to take down Beerus."
    • Therefore: The Z warriors acknowledge that fusion is insufficient to defeat Beerus, so they pursue the SSG form by asking Shenron how it's attained.

The core of this proof depends on Goku's single sentence. In fact, it depends on his usage of the single word "fusion," whether it was intended to be a Potara fusion (forming Vegito) or a Fusion Dance (forming Gogeta). We examine both cases.

  • In the case where Goku's usage of "fusion" refers to a Potara fusion:
    • Analysis: To defeat Beerus, there is no reason why Vegito wouldn't go SSJ once fused. Although we do not explicitly see SSJ Vegito fight Beerus in the movie, it is strongly implied that this fusion is subpar to SSG. Otherwise, there would be no reason for our Z warriors to pursue the SSG form at all. Why would they, if they can just fuse to defeat him? A lack of purpose of the SSG form would render a movie titled Battle of the Gods meaningless. Thus, I believe it is very reasonable to say that...
    • Since: SSG > SSJ Vegito and SSJ Vegito > SSJ4 (from conclusion 1)
    • Therefore: SSG > SSJ4
  • In the case where Goku's usage of "fusion" refers to a Fusion Dance:
    • Analysis: For the same reasoning used in the case above, I believe it is very reasonable to conclude that SSG > Fusion Dance Gogeta.
    • Since: SSG > Gogeta and Gogeta > SSJ4 (from conclusion 2)
    • Therefore: SSG > SSJ4

In both cases, we prove SSG > SSJ4. Therefore, it must follow that SSG > SSJ4. Q.E.D.

Now, the only convincing argument I've read for why SSJ4 could be stronger than SSG relates to the power discrepancy between Z and GT. Just how is it possible that after Goku reverts back to his base form from a SSG (which still puts up a good fight with Beerus), he later transforms to SSJ4 in GT only to get weaker? There are many possible fan-theories I can think of to bridge the gap. Although you may argue that none of them are "satisfactory" to you, I say that at least none of them contradicts the proof. Yes, I know they're very stupid, but I'm just proving a point. I'm sure someone else can come up with better ones.

  • Goku's lingering SSG effect wears off after a while.
  • Beerus really wants a match, and he was secretly helping Goku somehow "enable" his godly form.
  • The SSG form and it's phantom version may only be triggered when Beerus visits the Earth, or perhaps when Goku feels threatened by a powerful god of destruction.
  • There is no reason for Goku to use the SSG form when fighting strong foes like Omega Shenron, since he knows it's only temporary. Sure, he did try to use the SSJ4 form, but being the first transformation, he probably didn't know if it was stronger or weaker than the SSG.

Now, we are left with two options:

  1. to accept that the explanation has yet to be revealed (either one of the explanations I've given above, or some other one I haven't listed), thus agreeing that that SSG is stronger than SSJ4, or
  2. to reject the sources I've used in the proof above and say that no feasible explanation will ever come up in future DBZ movies to bridge this gap, thus asserting that SSG is weaker than SSJ4.

If you pick option 1, the entire Dragon Ball universe remains in-tact with all the sources (from games, supporting comics, etc.) consistent and valid. However, you must deal with the inadequacy of this explanation.

If you pick option 2, you have to give reason for why you reject all of these sources (which sounds pretty hard to me, but you can try and argue that). Furthermore, you have to prove that NO satisfactory explanation can EVER exist in the future of the DBZ franchise. It is extremely hard to prove a negative. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Have fun. A sane person would just go with option 1 because it's significantly less work.

But no matter what you pick, there will always been something that isn't perfect. At this point, the distinction just seems petty to me. Sometimes, you just have to accept the fact that you can't have your cake and eat it too. That doesn't stop us from enjoying the series.

More interesting comparisons would include: SSG vs. SSJ4 Gogeta, SSG vs. Omega Shenron, Beerus/Whis vs. SSJ4 Gogeta, or Beerus/Whis vs. Omega Shenron. My personal opinion is that SSG characters are stronger, but there's simply a lack of hard evidence to make any conclusions at this point. Moreover, I think Battle of the Gods characters are deliberately portrayed to be stronger as the creators would like to shy away from GT without explicitly denouncing it.

The bottom line: Obviously, GT was made without the SSG form in mind. Any analysis we do will ultimately be in vain, because the creators of the storylines do not themselves go to the extreme lengths we do to justify continuity between the Z and GT stories. This is especially true considering how producers (including Akira Toriyama) of the new DBZ movies hold the GT series in contempt. If we're lucky, they will make plot elements so ambiguous (as they clearly already have) that it's not even possible to find continuity conflicts between the series. In other words, they've just stopped trying. So then why do we still try? Because we love Dragon Ball, and because it's fun. We can go to sleep at night knowing that we've achieved unity.  Alextrovert (talk) 02:55, March 29, 2015 (UTC)

This analysis is wrong from the outset. You used Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha as a source, when that has absolutely no reliability in the canon. We do not use video game info as sources in these arguments. Gohan power upI can never forgive you for what you've done!510253-3411355-gohanSS2 16:48, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

Officially Confirmed

In one of Akira Toriyama's recent interviews he officialy confirmed this stating in his own words "Even though Gt is not cannon Super Saiyan 4 is stronger than Super Saiyan God"

Please provide a source. Otherwise, there is absolutely nothing confirmed. Alextrovert (talk) 15:15, April 3, 2015 (UTC)

Basic Opinions

SSG for me. ~Dragon Ball Number 4~ (talk) 15:18, April 5, 2015 (UTC)

SSJ4 is for sure milion times stronger than SSJG

SSJ4 would destroy SSJG,not only in design but also in abilities

Super Saiyan 4 >>> Super Saiyan God.

1st off, anyone who says Beers can 'one-shot' people like Omega Shenron or SS4 Gogeta, no.

  1. He has literally no feats. Buuhan could tool around all of the Zet Senshi the same way Beers did.
  2. When Goku said 'fusion' wouldn't work, he was referring to Gogeta, since him and Vegeta agree they'd never use the potara again. SS3 Vegetto >>> Beers.
  3. He's a cat.

GT characters a stupidly powerful compared to Z characters. People like Kid Buu are straight up fodder, even weaker than the weakest of the Zet Senshi like base Goten.

GT >>>> BoG. SSJ2 Gogeta (talk) 19:59, April

Do not compare gt to dbz it not fair since everything in gt is very inconsistent with dbz

but for sake of conversation


also the frieza movie was a waste of time !!!!god that frieza is a waste he should never be

comapred with or even used in dragon ball movies as a main villian becoz all the zfighters became way more

stronger than him so this "resurection F" movie was not really necessary!!!!!!!!!!!!

17:36, May 5, 2015 (UTC)~vegittoSGSS17:36, May 5, 2015 (UTC)VegittoSGSS (talk)

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan adds to the canon confusion

With Revival of F and Goku and Vegeta's new permanent transformations it throws the canon of not just GT but even the end of DBZ into question since those transformations were not present at the time Goku took Uub to train

The movies are on a lower level of canoninity than the manga--Aang13 (talk) 22:33, June 18, 2015 (UTC)

SSJ4 Is stronger if we compre GT Goku to Z Goku.

Let's look at it mathematically.

A few things to keep in mind:

1) GT Adult Base Goku = Z SSJ3 Goku

2) Since Goku reverts back to an adult when in ssj4 (since his power exceeds that of evil shenron's wish), even though Goku's base power level decreases when he becomes a child, ssj4 would be 4000x his adult base power.

Ok, now it's time for my argument. Let's assume Z SSJ3 Goku is equal to 0.5% of Beerus' full power, since at 1%, Beerus defeated him effortlessly. So, if Goku's power at SSJ God was equal to Beerus' power at 70%, SSJ God would multiply Z SSJ3 Goku's power by 140x, or multiply GT Adult Base Goku's power by 140x, which is nothing compared to SSJ4's 4000x multiplier. Now, SSJ God would be stronger if it was Z Goku going SSJ4, however we are looking at GT Goku, since this is the version that went SSJ4.

This concludes my argument, and I do believe that it is valid. Still, feel free to reveal any holes you may find in my argument, or point out something in the show that I missed that would make SSJ God stronger.

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