The different Buus and how strong they are REVEALED
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[[Category:{{{1}}}|The different Buus and how strong they are REVEALED]]
I've gotten tired of all the different and VERY WRONG power comparisons for the different Buus, especially when it was very plan to me which Buus were stronger than which, so I'm going to explain this very simply.
First off, many people think that Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu. THIS IS NOT THE CASE. Two different instances show that Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu. The first is when Super Buu is reverting back to his original form, Goku and Vegeta are shocked by his growing strength. Goku even asks "How can he be increasing instead of decreasing?" This is before he even reverts to Ultra Buu, let alone Kid Buu. Therefore, both Kid Buu and Ultra Buu are stronger than Super Buu. They were simply thrown off by his short child-like appearance.
The second instance is when Goku is about to fight Gotenks-Super Buu. But then time runs out and he reverts to Piccolo-Super Buu. Goku no longer looks worried and drops down from Super Saiyan 3, stating that "He's lost over a third of his power. He's doesn't doubt that Piccolo-Super Buu can be defeated, while later he states that he MIGHT have been able to defeat Kid Buu had he gone all out. This makes Kid Buu stronger than evfen Piccolo-Super Buu.
As for Kid Buu in comparison to Gotenks-Super Buu and Gohan-Super Buu, this was revealed right before Goku went back to Earth and before the final battle with Kid Buu. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was slightly stronger than Kid Buu. He even mentions to Vegeta that he COULD have defeated Kid Buu had he gone all out, but he held back to give Vegeta a chance to fight him. But he overestimated his living body's capability to sustain Super Saiyan 3, which was why things went so bad.
As for Gotenks-Super Buu, Goku didn't even consider simply fighting him as he was. He thought that the only way to win would be to fuse with Gohan. So if he can beat Kid Buu but can't beat Gotenks-Super Buu, that makes Gotenks-Super Buu stronger than Kid Buu. As for Gohan-Super Buu, since he's stronger than Gotenks-Super Buu, logic dictates that he's stronger than Kid Buu.
Now, out of all the Buus, Kid Buu is the THIRD strongest. Gotenks-Super Buu and Gohan-Super Buu ARE stronger than both Kid Buu and Ultra Buu. I think this is why people get mixed up about who's stronger, Kid Buu or Super Buu. What people seem to confuse is Kid Buu's destruction with his power. Kid Buu may not be the most powerful of all the Buus, but he's the MOST DANGEROUS. His madness and pure evil are what make him the deadliest of all the Buus, but not the most powerful.
As for Kid Buu and Ultra Buu, Kid Buu is stronger than Ultra Buu. More muscle doesn't mean more power in the DBZ world. After absorbing someone, Buu takes on some of their physical features. Supreme South Kai was muscular, which was why Ultra Buu was muscular, it had nothing to do with strength. Absorbing the Kais decreased his strength, regardless of his appearance. Kid Buu was a being of pure evil and madness. The purity and innocence of the Kais, particularly Daikaiho, lowered his power. After Kibito Kai reveals Kid Buu's past, telling him how he absorbed the 2 Kais, Old Kai says, "Oh, I get it, they weakened him." Both Kais weakened him. This tells us that Kid Buu is stronger than Ultra Buu.
As for the fat and thin Buus, Piccolo flat out says that the new one (the thin one) is even stronger than the old one. Plain and simple statement there, including the practically one-sided fight between the two.
Final results, here's the Buu order from strongest to weakest.
1) Gohan-Super Buu
2) Gotenks-Super Buu
3) Kid Buu
5) Piccolo-Super Buu
6) Ultra Buu
7) Super Buu
8) Evil Buu (thin)
9) Majin Buu (fat)
Really, the only difficult one to place is Ultra Buu and where he is on the power scale. He's stronger than Evil Buu but weaker than Kid Buu, and we can only guess at where he's located. The above is my opinion of where he'll be placed. Piccolo-Super Buu is obviously stronger than Super Buu, but whether he's stronger than Ultra Buu is debatable, as is the case with Ultra Buu and Super Buu.
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Look 
Edit
There's only one thing in your argument that wrong, and that's Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu.
Goku(while in Super Buu) stated specifially in the MANGA, AFTER Super Buu had all his absorbtions removed, and became normal Super Buu, that both him and Vegeta together COULDN'T beat Super Buu, as you can see here.On the other hand, Goku said later that he could beat Kid Buu himself if he could attain full power at SS3.
Also, there another fact that basically no one actually said that Super Buu was getting stronger when all of his transformations were removed. All that was said was that he was changing, as you can see here.
One last thing: When Goku seemed to look calm when Gotenks Super Buu turned into Piccolo Super Buu, it was because he knew that Gohan would be able to defeat him and that fusion wasn't necassary anymore.
I hope that solves any inquiries you had. 
I can never forgive you for what you've done!
08:18, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
Actually... Edit
No, I'm still not convinced. I don't know about the manga, but in the anime, at least on the version I saw, while Super Buu was reverting back to Kid Buu, Goku said, "How could he be INCREASING instead of decreasing?" That means Super Buu was getting stronger as he was changing to Kid Buu. The link you provided is for the manga, so maybe it was changed for the anime. Also, Goku and Vegeta couldn't beat Super Buu together AT THE TIME. But if you remember, they were tired and weakened from all the fighting they already did. When they got to Other World after Kid Buu destroyed Earth, they were both healed. So not only did they regain their strength, they became even stronger than before due to a saiyan's ability to get stronger after fighting. Although I'lI give you credit about Piccolo-Super Buu. Maybe he is stronger than Kid Buu, MAYBE, but I still stand by what I said before, Kid Buu is stronger than normal Super Buu.
Umm, they were tired from fighting what? In the manga, when they went into Super Buu they didn't fight anyone there, and if you're referring to before they went in Super Buu, they were Vegito; who didn't have a scratch on him and seemed perfectly fine, which in turn should be the same for the fusees. The increase in power that everyone was yelling about,as I said, was in the anime, but not in the manga. Also, there was no healing involved in the manga when they went to Supreme Kai's planet after Buu blew up the planet. Manga>Anime I can never forgive you for what you've done! 15:22, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
Only touched on a few things Edit
You can't only look at a few quotes...you must look at everything before jumping to conclusions. Goku wasn't "thrown off" by his size, "thrown off" means confused...you could say Vegeta was, but not Goku...they only state a power increase as Super is reverting to Ultra, but when Ultra reverts to Kid, Goku claims they succeeded in weakening him...he was s***-scared against normal Super Buu, claiming they can only win through fusion, but against Kid Buu, he crushes his earring with Vegeta. The only reason he was confident against Piccolo-Buu was because Gohan was there, and Gohan is far stronger than Goku. Plain and simple.
Vegito > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku >/< Kid Buu >/< Evil Buu > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta
It can argued who's stronger between Goku and Kid Buu and Evil Buu, and everything else is crystal clear. If you want, you can go to the other thread (title asking how Gotenks-Buu and Gohan-Buu can beat up Goku), and I have a long, drawn out explanation considering most relevent quotes and events if not all....If it doesn't convince you, then I'm just going to be led to believe that you're simply being difficult...I'll be honest, as a kid, I thought Kid > Super, and Goku > Gohan, but then I became a hardcore fan...anyway, just read it thoroughly and you'll see
Princevegeta66 16:18, July 21, 2012 (UTC)
Ok then, consider this... Edit
When Goku and Vegeta were inside Super Buu's body after they were absorbed, they were able to defeat the clone Super Buu made of himself, even though another one was immediately created.
And more importantly, is Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu, then why not just have Gohan or Gotenks defeat him. Both were stronger than Super Buu, so why not have one of them fight? They were dead, so they were in Other World too. All Kibito Kai had to do was bring them there. Just teleport to the Check In Station, grab Gohan and/or Gotenks and bring them to the Supreme Kai planet, and Kid Buu would be done for. Or why not do that after they were brought back to life? Instead they go through this hole elaborate plan to stall for time and create a Spirit Bomb. And you can't say it's because they were weak from fighting, even if they hadn't regained their strength after dying and then being wished back, because Dende or Kibito Kai could have just healed them.
So you see, if Kid Buu were weaker than Super Buu, they would have just had just had Gotenks or Gohan fight him, but they couldn't because he was STRONGER. Stronger even then Piccolo-Super Buu or else they would still would have had Gohan fight. Sorry, but I rest my case.
There's a problem. Goku actually DID suggest bringing Gohan and Gotenks into the fight and he actually WOULD HAVE if Vegeta hadn't denied. Vegeta didn't know how strong they were in comparison, so he just thought the Spirit Bomb would work better. If you read my argument from earlier, you'll realize why Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. Also, as I said before; the fight between Goku,Vegeta and Super Buu while inside Super Buu never happened. Super Buu did appear inside himself, but he never fought.I can never forgive you for what you've done! 13:39, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Goku did not actually suggest to bring Gohan, Trunks, or Goten to fight Kid Buu. Well, it’s easy to be misunderstood when you only bother to watch a few minutes of Dragon Ball Z or read a few lines in the manga.
The final battle against Kid Buu is largely about the fight between Goku and Kid Buu, with the help from Vegeta, later Mr. Buu, eventually entire population from the earth and Planet Namek and even inhabitants of the other world.
You can of course go back and read the manga / watch the anime now if you want. Let’s start from the very beginning in the Buu Saga.
Goku was surprised that even Super Saiyan 2 Majin-Vegata is no match for Fat Buu. While being dead, he was reluctant to meddle with the affairs of living world initially. However, having the need to stall Fat Buu to allow Trunks to retrieve the Dragon Radar, he rushed to the front of Fat Buu. He said that he would need the power that went beyond Super Saiyan 2, which turned out to be Super Saiyan 3. He did not want to transform into a Super Saiyan 3 because he was pretty uncertain of the nature of Super Saiyan 3, knowing that it would cost a lot of energy. “?”He did not actually know how long could he remain in Super Saiyan 3 in the living world. He did know that it was unlikely to remain in Super Saiyan 3 for a very long time and made him very tired afterwards. He seemed to be able to maintain the Super Saiyan 3 transformation for indefinite period of time in the other world when he was dead because time is meaningless for a dead person in the other world. With instant transmission, he can go to the other world while being alive.
Being able to defeat Super Saiyan 2 Majin-Vegeta would mean Fat Buu was very strong. Just how strong is Fat Buu? Goku honestly did not actually know when he woke up after being knocked out by Vegeta from behind. He was not interested or willing to defeat Fat Buu. He claimed that Vegeta or Majin-Vegeta was as strong as he was, thus he was also no match for Fat Buu. He later asserted that he would fuse with other to have enough power to defeat Fat Buu. He taught Goten and Trunks the fusion technique, counting on them to defeat Fat Buu. However, when he needed to stall Fat Buu, he unveiled the Super Saiyan 3 Transformation, showing that he was lying about his strength.
Goten and Trunks, initially regarded Goku as coward which Goku seemed to agree on, were amazed by the power of Super Saiyan 3 Goku shown. As a dead person, it was an exception for Goku to be in the world of living, only for 24 hours normally, depending on how much energy were left. Goku made it clear that the world can no longer count on him to protect it. He was then willing to put his stake on next generation, such as Gohan, Goten, and Trunk, to do the job. Super Saiyan 3 Transformation shortened his time in the world of living significantly.
The fight between Goku and Fat Buu was far from being conclusive. Goku was a dead person and had limited time and energy in the world of living. In other words, if Goku was not brought back to life later, we may never know to which extent Goku’s strength lies.
The old Kaioshin gave his life to Goku so that Goku could fight Gotenks Buu. Gotenks Buu was much stronger than Fat Buu. Neither Goku nor Old Kaioshin knew how much stronger Gotenks Buu was, only knowing that Gohan was no match for Gotenks Buu. Old Kaioshin was not sure or did not believe Goku could defeat Gotenks Buu alone. Goku then suggested the use of fusion. The old Kaioshin gave Goku a pair of Potara Earrings to would make Goku fuse with a person he chose permanently. Old Kaioshin said that Potara Earrings were so amazing that if Goku used them, he might be able to have enough power to defeat Gotenks Buu without transforming into a Super Saiyan.
Hearing Old Kaioshin’s words, he put his bet on the Potara Earrings. If Goku wanted to fight Gotenks Buu without fusion, the only option left to him would be Super Saiyan 3 transformation, which Goku was unsure of whether it would be enough to defeat Gotenks Buu. He did not transform into a Super Saiyan 3 to have an all-out fight with Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu, although he did briefly transform into a Super Saiyan 3 without putting a long or conclusive fight. When he sensed Vegeta, he did not try to use his Super Saiyan 3 transformation to fight Gohan Buu with full power. He wanted to reserve his power and fuse with Vegeta.
A competition or an all-out fight is the only way we can see how strong two opponents are. Despite a lot of assertions made by Goku and other characters, we never saw those all-out fight took place between Goku and other forms of Majin Buu. The outcome of the competition and all-out fight in many cases are not known at all.
Kid Buu, which is regarded by Kaioshins as the most difficult opponent among all forms of Majin Buu, was fought by Super Saiyan 3 Goku. If we actually knew from manga and anime that how strong Super Saiyan 3 Goku was before he fought with Kid Buu, we may be able to tell the strength of Kid Buu as well. Why Goku would like to fight Kid Buu instead of other forms of Buu? Is it because he is weaker than other forms of Buu?
Goku said that Kid Buu was fighting with his own power and it would only be fair for him to fight with his own power as well. It was pretty much like Goku offering a senzu bean to Cell. No one in the manga or anime actually asserted Kid Buu was weaker than other forms that Buu, is that not correct?
To Kaioshins, Majin Buu of all forms have amazing power beyond their comprehension. Yet, Kaioshins regarded Kid Buu as the most difficult opponent. East Kaioshin knew that because he was there long time ago to see or hear from other Kaioshins about Buu. Absorption actually brought some senses to Buu and weakened him. It’s not said that each absorption weakened Buu, which is certainly not the case. Perhaps we could say that there were the original Majin Buu (Kid Buu) and Majin Buu with absorptions. While gaining the power from those whom he absorbed, Majin Buu’s own power was being restricted. While he may be more powerful by absorbing strong fighters, he may never be as strong as he originally was.
Note that Kaioshin’s remark was being translated differently according to different translations. Some, such as this wiki, preferred to say Kaioshin said that Kid Buu was the most dangerous compared with other forms. Quote “原作でも界王神が「最初の一番厄介な魔人ブウに戻ってしまった」と認めている。” from http://ja.dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/%E9%AD%94%E4%BA%BA%E3%83%96%E3%82%A6#.E9.AD.94.E4.BA.BA.E3.83.96.E3.82.A6.EF.BC.88.E7.B4.94.E7.B2.8B.EF.BC.89. Funimation’s English Dub said it outright that Majin Buu was stronger than ever before; its English subtitle referring to original Japanese dialog was:
1. The Majin Boo that Bibidi created was the very essence of evil.
2. It was a failed creation, that not even Bibidi himself could handle,
3. but by absorbing the Grand Kaioshin-sama,
4. he became somehow or other able to control him.
5. So then he finally became complete. Which then would mean...
6. That little Majin Boo now is the very first, most difficult one, then?
7. Yes. His heart, which through absorption had allowed his power to even be reduced,
8. has returned back to its original form.
9. To an existence without any self-control, of evil itself.
As a matter of fact, I was not even sure which line in the original manga / anime can be translated to say Kid Buu is the most dangerous compared with other forms.
Did Goku suggest to bring Gohan, Goten and Trunks as some have claimed?
No, he did not.
Remember the Rock-Paper-Scissor? Not only Goku refused to use Potara Earrings, he also wanted to go all out ALONE to fight Kid Buu who also fought with his own power. He was doing Rock-Paper-Scissor with Vegeta so that he could have fought Kid Buu first.
When Goku ran out of power to remain in Super Saiyan 3 transformation, is that when he suggested to bring Gohan, Trunks, and Goten to the battle field? It’s not a suggestion per se. Here I am to put the dialog here again.
1. V- Vegeta, what are you doing? (Goku)
2. It's still too soon to be using the Dragon Balls. (Goku)
3. Kakarrot, how many times have you saved the Earth up to now? (Vegeta)
4. What's this, all of a sudden? (Vegeta)
5. I asked you how many times you've saved it! (Vegeta)
6. Let's see, how many times has it been? (Goku)
7. It's time to let the folks on Earth take the responsibility for a change. (Vegeta)
8. …
9. There are two wishes I want granted. (Vegeta)
10. First, I want the Earth that has been destroyed returned to the way it was! (Vegeta)
11. Next, I want everyone who has died (Vegeta)
12. since the day of that Tenkaichi Tournament, (Vegeta)
13. except for the really bad ones, to be brought back to life! Those two! (Vegeta)
14. …
15. After those first two, anything's fine! Do whatever you want! (Vegeta)
16. …
17. W- what is it you're planning to do? (Goku)
18. …
19. I get it, Vegeta! (Goku)
20. You wanted to bring Gohan and Gotenks back to life (Goku)
21. so we can have them fight too, right? (Goku)
22. Wrong! (Vegeta)
23. We're starting! Get ready! (Vegeta)
24. Ready? For what? (Goku)
25. Get ready to make a Genki Dama! (Vegeta)
26. A- a Genki Dama? A Genki Dama!? (Goku)
27. …
28. A Genki Dama, you say? (Goku)
29. …
30. Hey, Vegeta, your idea was to use a Genki Dama? (Goku)
31. That's right. (Vegeta)
32. So that's it! You've thought this out, huh Vegeta? (Goku)
33. Surely, with a Genki Dama, we might be able to defeat Boo! (Goku)
34. …
35. Say, it's impossible, ain't it? With a Genki Dama? (Goku)
36. Even if I were to gather a little bit of Ki from everyone... (Goku)
37. I told you, didn't I? (Vegeta)
38. Let the folks on Earth take responsibility for a change. (Vegeta)
39. Besides, you're not going to get a little from everyone. (Vegeta)
40. You're going to push everyone right to their limit! (Vegeta)
Goku was puzzled by Vegeta’s decision to use Dragon Ball so early. He indeed asked repeatedly what Vegeta was planning to do. From Vegeta’s “It's time to let the folks on Earth take the responsibility for a change”, Goku misunderstood it as bringing Gohan and Gotenks back to battlefield. The folks Vegeta meant were not referring to their sons only but the entire population of earth, which did include their sons.
After writing (and copying) so many words, it would seem so silly to even explain here. After all, you like Dragon Ball, you will watch it repeatedly anyway. Perhaps it’s due to my love of Dragon Ball makes me bother to spend my time and effort here. Thljcl 15:50, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Hmm Edit
I'm actually quite a big fan of the DB/Z/GT franchise.I don't need to be told the entire story. I'll agree with you on the fact that Goku did not actually "suggest" bringing them into the fight, but that doesn't change much. The quotes you wrote here about "Kid Buu being more difficult" are not exactly correct. If you look in here you'll see that the Supreme Kai stated that "he's pure evil, without any mercy" and Old Kai says that "He's the most dangerous", but as you can see, there's never any actual mention that he's stronger than any of the other Buus. The Supreme Kai was scared because now, he would become completely mindless and destroy the universe. Again, I have to say to look at the manga pages I provided earlier to understand why Super Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. The question is not of who's more dangerous, it's of who's stronger, so if the pages I provided aren't enough proof, I don't think anything is.
Problematic TranslationEdit
I’ve been waiting for someone to response, and more importantly, to show me the link to the I-do-not-know-made-by-whom English-translated manga. The problem from the link that telling that “Kid Buu is the most dangerous” actually lies with the translation, if you bother to read my comment carefully.
I explicitly pointed out that there are issues with translated version of manga, which I do not know made by whom. I actually know Chinese, a little bit of Japanese, and of course English. Actually, Funimation made or re-made, if you prefer, Dragon Ball Z available in multiple audios and English subtitle. While the English language audio did not match exactly with Japanese audio in terms of meanings, it did largely follow the meaning. If you preferred to hear or know what was actually being said in the original Japanese, the English subtitle was available specifically for Japanese audio, not English audio. It’s fair to say the English audio is NOT a simply or direct translation of Japanese audio, but rather created to tell the story of Dragon Ball Z by matching the U.S. or English-speaking areas markets perhaps. The English subtitle, on the other hand, is a direct translation of Japanese audio.
Did you not ever wonder where I got the long line of dialogs, which did not actually match the link you showed me word-by-word?
The long line of dialog is not made by myself, merely coming from English subtitle of Dragon Ball Z provided by Funimation. I actually included a phrase of Japanese in my comment. Even though Google Translate, Bing Translate and other online translators are not very accurate, they do tell that no words are in the original Japanese context saying that Kid Buu is the most dangerous.
Believe it or not. It’s consistent with the translation (English subtitle) made by Funimation. You see, it’s definitely a problematic translation as the grammar is messy. But you should be able to see what I meant. While the English audio is not a direct translation thus do not convey original meaning in full, it does not change the story at all.Thljcl 17:58, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
So, you're basically using the Japanese anime? You are aware that it still contains added dialogue, right? Just because it's the Japanese anime doesn't mean it's an exact replica of the manga. The Japanese anime still has SSJ3 Goku saying he could beat Piccolo-Buu, for example, just like the American anime, whereas the manga does not. Manga > Anime, no matter what anime version you're using.
I agree with this but... Edit
You need to use the manga instead of the anime. The anime is not Toriyama's original work. But yeah, please check my blog post for more clarification SaiyanZ 18:37, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
The Problem Still lies with Translation, Not AnimeEdit
It’s true that anime does include some scenes that are not available in the manga. However, in terms of the conversations made by the characters themselves, when we are talking about the scenes that are available in both anime and manga, the words being used are basically the same.
I only gave the translation provided by Funimation. I also read manga as well, in Japanese, Chinese, and English.
It’s pointless to say manga>anime if the words being said in both are the same. I do not have the reliable English translation other than those provided by Funimation. I do have found the (Taiwan version) Chinese translation (manga) and original Japanese (manga) in the web. The link is here:
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/dragonball_jp_original.htm (Japanese version) (manga)
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/dragonball_zh_tw.htm (Chinese version) (manga)
I’ve repeatedly heard about the “most dangerous” claim.
For the sake of curiosity, I did do some research by comparing different versions (languages, manga, anime)
I can say for sure for those manga-only scenes, the words being used are pretty much the same.
Thus, I can rely on Funimation-provided translation subtitle in case I want to watch Dragon Ball Z.
One more thing, the storyline did not change in anime basically. Someone repeatedly claimed how Funimation changed the story, which is not true.
Just check with Japanese Dragon Ball wiki to see how they describe Majin Buu. Then you can make your own judgment. The Japanese phrase I included coming from Japanese Dragon Ball Wiki, which it cited the manga (Japanese version, of course) as the source.
Thljcl 18:41, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
^ Okay, now if I recall correctly, the translation you provided for us says that Kid (Chibi) Buu is the most difficult, correct? Well that simply ties in with the "dangerous" part...he is most difficult because of his insanity...he's likely to destroy the planet as soon as he gets the chance (as evidenced by his quick "decision" to destroy the Earth, something all the other Buus, along with Cell and Frieza, could have done right away if they wanted to, but didn't for various "reasons"). Goku & Vegeta got lucky afterwards, since Buu, in his insane state, somehow came to the conclusion that he wanted to test his power against them. Let's say Fat Buu had the personality of Kid Buu instead...he'd end up being most "dangerous" or most "difficult" as he would waste no time in annihilating worlds as he pleases. If the Fat Buu hatched acting like Kid Buu, BOOM, Earth would be gone, heroes dead. Go ahead and look at the Japanese anime if you like, and manga too, but most evidence points to Super > Kid. There was some evidence for Kid > Super even before you brought this up, but the evidence against it made it null and void, just like it does this evidence. - Princevegeta66 (sorry, not signed in, too lazy to do so)
What Evidence?Edit
Evidence? It’s great that you said that. I really hoped there were evidences that actually said Kid Buu was difficult because of insanity. Unfortunately, most of the “evidences” were nothing but some interpretation of various fighting scenes and guessing about Goku’s power (or the power of other characters).
Well, Kaioshin did say that Kid Buu was an essence of evil and completely lack of self-control; it’s not wrong to say that thus he is completely insane. It’s basically correct. Let’s think through it.
Gohan, Goten, and Trunks were killed when Kid Buu destroyed the earth. Vegeta was a dead person also but was given special permission by King Yenma to fight Majin Buu. The case for Vegeta, at least, told that, with the permission of King Yenma, it was possible for dead people to keep flesh and blood in order for them to fight Buu. Usually, those, who contributed a lot to the people, like Goku did, would be allowed to keep his flesh and blood when they were dead. Vegeta was not one of those, but was given special permission purely because of the needed situation.
First of all, we need to admit the difference in meanings and words would make the entire storyline different in interpretation. When we talked about an opponent who was difficult, what would that mean? Or, when we said that an opponent who was easy, what would that mean? Besides, Kaioshin explicitly said that his power was brought down due to absorption. With those words coming from Kaioshin, what do you think it would mean?
Suppose Kid Buu was weaker than, say, Gotenks Buu, or even Super Buu without the absorption of any Z warriors, would he be most difficult because of his insanity? When we talk about insane people, they are very dangerous by nature in the real life because they show no restraints and may cause harm to the public. In the Dragon Ball universe, things become somewhat different.
An insane person, who does not possess extraordinary ability or strength, would not mean much threat to, say, Gohan. Is he not? An insane person, who is significantly weaker than Gohan, would not be a difficult opponent to Gohan, would he? Kid Buu is the one who must be killed because he is completely evil. Saying him difficult means what? It is certainly not difficult when he is easy to be killed by somebody.
At one point, no one actually knew how to destroy Kid Buu. Goku used his Super Saiyan 3 transformation, to a very large extent, because he wanted to fight Buu at a one-to-one all-out fight, which was explicitly said in both manga and anime. He wanted to do his best and was confident to his own power also. However, he was certainly unsure of the nature of Super Saiyan 3 and Kid Buu. If you think about it, it’s just the usual Goku.
I wonder how you draw direct comparison between Kid Buu and say, Super Buu, when they certainly could not fight each other. Unless you say that competition or all-out fight is not necessary to see who is stronger. Used Goku as indirect evidence or Goku’s own words? It’s pointless also because no one actually saw Goku fought with Super Saiyan 3 Transformation with his full power before he fought Kid Buu.
Make no mistake. Goku’s own words (and the words from other characters) are important. But words should not be taken out of context. For example, Goku said he could not defeat Majin Buu in various occasions. We needed to consider the background and perhaps, to think as Goku as well to understand why Goku says so and what would he actually mean. If he told Vegeta how great his Super Saiyan 3 transformation was repeatedly, would it make Vegeta more willing to fuse with him? Vegeta was very sick of the idea of fusing with Goku in the first place, to a point that he even destroyed the Potara Earrings. Fusion, no matter how you look at it, is a safe and better option to defeat someone as strong as Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu, even though they may not be as “difficult” as Kid Buu. That is especially true when you do not know your opponent well other than knowing your opponent is very strong. What is the point of touting his own strength when he wanted to encourage the next generation to take the responsibility?
Goku has worried about how long Super Saiyan 3 transformation can remain. Looking at the eventual outcome of the fight between him and Kid Buu, it’s fair to say that Goku’s worry is not groundless, which explains why he thought fusion is a safer and better option. But it’s also undeniable that Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 is so powerful that he can fight Kid Buu. Vegeta said:
1. Kakarrot, you are one incredible guy...
2. I was absolutely no match against Majin Boo.
3. You're the only one who can fight with him.
4. Kakarrot... the first time I met you was when I came to Earth
5. as I was conquering planets on the frontier.
6. …
7. Ever since then, I lived with the goal of surpassing you, Kakarrot.
8. …
9. However, in the end, I was unable to surpass you.
10. …
11. Hang in there, Kakarrot! You are Number One!
Thljcl 21:03, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Long, drawn-out explanation that still ain't as long as the one on the previous thread...read thoroughly, don't skim, you need to know all of this to understand...Edit
^ Okay, now you're simply using Goku vs Kid Buu as proof. You said look at context, correct? Fine, let's do that. Let's also add in the evidence I was speaking of.
SSJ3 Goku outclassed Fat Buu (more or less) but told Piccolo he may not have been able to defeat him, telling Piccolo Buu's power is like a "lie". This is evident as Buu's power grows with his anger. He feels allowing the boys to fuse and fight is a gamble, but their only shot. Keep in mind that this Goku is dead and about to return to Otherworld very soon regardless, and whether he'd be able to take out Fat Buu in the time he had left or not is up to debate. However, after returning he only had time to shows the boys fusion and SSJ3 for a few seconds before having go. In his fight with Kid Buu, he states he could've taken out Fat Buu but wanted the kids to do it. So, it all comes down to a matter of time - could SSJ3 Goku blast Buu into absolute nothing before having to return?
Nonetheless, from his last quote and the fight, SSJ3 Goku > Fat Buu. However, Fat Buu is a very restricted Buu. Not only does he have the Kais influence inside him, he relies on his anger to tap into more of his power. It's widely believe that we never even saw Fat Buu's potential since he split shortly afterwards.
Anyway, the boys fuse and get whooped by Fat Buu. Once they fuse as SSJs, Piccolo has no doubt they can deal with Fat Buu (only asking if his speed is good, which is later proven to be tremendously good - Piccolo only worried afterwards because Gotenks had no fusion time left). Quote?
Chapter: 482 (DBZ 288), P7.2-3
Piccolo: "...Yeah...Your ki really is absolutely incredible, but how about your movement?...Show me a little"
SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu. From long before, we saw SSJ2 Vegeta < Fat Buu, and SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2 Vegeta, so SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku. It's obvious right off the bat here that SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku, especially after the ROSAT training (it should be an undisputed power comparison, IMO).
Super Buu is formed and Goku, feeling his power from Otherworld is shocked, questioning if the ki signature is Majin Buu's at all. Piccolo stated that the evil, gray Buu was stronger than the original Fat Buu. This Fat Buu's full potential was supposedly never seen, so we simply have to go with Evil Buu > Original Fat Buu. Now, right here, the Fat Buu (now "Good Buu") represent all the good that was in the original Buu, and the evil one all the evil. So, the Good Buu represents the part of Fat Buu was the made up of the Kais, and the Evil Buu represents that part of Fat Buu that was once Kid Buu (whether this is true power-wise is up for debate, though both of them surpass Fat Buu). Super Buu is considered far too powerful for Gotenks, so Piccolo orders him into the ROSAT to train. Right off the bat we have potential Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku as SSJ Gotenks could potentially fight on par with SSJ3 Goku and Super Buu is considered too strong for Gotenks. Anyways, when SSJ Gotenks (post-ROSAT) faces Super Buu, Piccolo goes from being shocked at Gotenks' power to being sure of their doom (multiple times he thinks Gotenks has it, and several times he's like, "we're screwed"). If SSJ2 Goku, who was under Fat Buu, fought this Super Buu, would Piccolo be reacting the same way? No, he'd be telling Goku to hurry up and try to transform because Goku would have no chance. And because this provides more evidence for SSJ Gotenks > SSJ2 Goku, it helps solidify that SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku.
Super Buu proves too powerfull for Gotenks and eventually escapes the ROSAT. Gotenks goes SSJ3 and fights Super Buu, and here Super Buu is still powerful enough to take on Gotenks. If you use the Daizenshu's multipliers for the Super Saiyans, then you could say SSJ3 = SSJ x 8. And if SSJ Gotenks >/< SSJ3 Goku, then SSJ3 Gotenks could be anywhere from 6-10x times stronger than Goku. And Super Buu still gives this guy a challenge. Nonetheless, Gotenks nearly finishes Buu when SSJ3 wears off, and soon after, the fusion.
Gohan shows up and makes Super Buu, who gave SSJ3 Gotenks a decent challenge still, look like a joke. Gohan > Goku by far. Super Buu then threatens to self-destruct, which threatens even Gohan (or at least threatens him to the point that the must re-locate the others). And Super Buu returns to absorb Gotenks. The power of Gotenks, which, from the fight, can hypothetically by 10% - 15% greater than Super Buu's, is enough the make Gohan look like a joke. Gotenks was already at least 5x Goku's strength, and Super was close to that, yet Super Buu + Gotenks is enough to make Gohan look like a joke, indicating Super Buu possessed more than half the power Gohan did (unless you believe the unity between Gotenks and Super Buu was fusion-esque, therefore being more than a simple 1+1).
At this point Gohan has no chance and Old Kai gives Goku gives his life and the Potara. At this point, Goku can't say the same about wanting the younger gen to handle it on their own, as Gohan was being curbstomped. Gotenks' fusion wears off, however, and Goku claims that Gohan can handle Super Buu on his own, not himself, but Gohan. You could argue again that Goku decided to let the younger gen handle it once more, so let's just keep this as minor evidence (seeing as how we have that wall of text above us so far).
Now, if Goku is 5x weaker than Gotenks, and Gohan stronger than Gotenks, then, hypothetically, if Buu absorbed Goku, Gohan would still wipe the floor with him. So, naturally, he goes for Gohan this time. Vegeta returns and gets beat up for a while and the two fuse, do their thing, and get absorbed.
Here, they defuse and Vegeta crushes the earring, Goku complaining since he thinks they'll need them again. Goku & Vegeta detach the people inside Super Buu and prepare to blast out. But Goku tells Vegeta to stop because they are no match for him. Right here, "Look at the context", as you yourself said. I'm sure you'll bring up their tiny size right here, but Goku and Vegeta talk about fusion, nothing more.
Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Buu back to regular evil Buu Goku: "Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo's power should have fallen significantly! We're almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!" Vegeta: "Alright! Let's blast out of here and escape!" Goku: "Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we're still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we'll definitely be done in...!"
Size does not come up once here. Also, the entire time after detaching the pods, Goku & Vegeta's goal is to escape...if Goku thought they'd lose due to size even outside, he wouldn't attempt to escape at all. He requests fusions afterwards (against a normal Super Buu, mind you):
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5 Context: after evil Buu appears inside his own body Vegeta: "Da...damn it...! Th-this could be bad..." Goku: "Di-didn't I tell ya to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!"
"If we could just go outside and merge", pure evidence that Goku wants to leave, fuse, and fight. He isn't unsure like the Fat Buu, he outright says that both he and Vegeta would get clobbered by base Super Buu.
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5 Context: as evil Buu reverts to his South Kaioshin form Goku: "H-hey...Vegeta...His ki is increasing, ain't it...!?"
Right here, Goku states a ki increase. So, Ultra Buu > Base Super Buu.
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6 Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form Goku: "..." Vegeta: "......Heh...Heheheh...Look! He's shrunk down quite a bit!" Goku: "We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something." Context: 'He's shrunk' refers to Boo's body, not his ki.
^ Say what you want about Vegeta and his cocky self, but Goku right here explicitly states "We did it!" What was Goku's goal? To weaken Super Buu into a state he could handle. You could argue base Super Buu is also that state, but the quotes further above state Super > Goku. Here, Goku claims he might be able to manage something - slightly unsure, as always, but still better than outright saying "we'll lose" as he did with base Super Buu.
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P6.8, P7.1-5 Context: after Kaioshin hands Goku his Potara but he refuses it Goku: "...Like I thought, these...just ain't suited for us...Even though you went out of your way to hand 'em over...We want to fight with only our own power. I'm sorry, especially since things are so dangerous now...But he ain't merged anymore either..." Elder Kaioshin: "Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! And at a time like this! It's not like you gu-guys are in a martial arts match with Boo, you know!" Vegeta: "...Well said, Kakarot. Just like a true...Saiyan." Kaioshins: "...!" Goku: "It's alright. I'm tellin' ya, don't worry. He can't come all the way here. We'll think up some sorta strategy. I feel bad for the aliens who will be sacrificed in the meantime, but we'll use the dragonballs later..."
Chapter: 509 (DBZ 315), P10.2 Context: as Goku and Vegeta prepare to fight Kid Buu Elder Kaioshin: "Fr-from the looks of it, they don't intend to perform Fusion either...Shi-*****...! Saiyans are so troublesome...!"
Goku insists on fusing against Super Buu at all costs, but not Kid Buu. Sure he claims he's doing so since Buu isn't a merged being either, but if Kid Buu were stronger than Super Buu, Goku wouldn't have much choice but to fuse, as all canon evidence point to Super > Goku. Lastly, there's simply the fact that Goku states he can defeat Kid Buu on his own, 1 vs 1, whereas with Vegeta on his side, he couldn't beat base Super Buu. You could say absorptions weaken Buu, but the only one that did was the absorption of the Grand Supreme Kai, because of his "innocence" and "purity". Supreme Kai only comments that the absorption of Daikaioshin weakened Kid Buu, not South Kaioshin. And the "most difficult" thing is simply thrown out the window - that's one vague statement versus all of what I've presented you with. You should understand now, assuming you actually took the time to read everything I just posted (not trying to offend, but I know some people just skim through really long walls of text).
You can head over to the original thread titled something like "How can Super Buu (Gotenks and Gohan) kick around SSJ3 Goku......" and look at my full explanation there, as I have a slightly more drawn out one on that thread if you still don't believe me.
In the end, we get:
Vegito > Gohan-Buu > Gotenks-Buu > Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks > Piccolo-Buu >/< Ultra buu > Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks >/< SSJ3 Goku >/< Kid Buu >/< Evil Buu > Fat Buu > SSJ2 Goku & Vegeta. Peace.
Princevegeta66 22:15, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Still no evidence, only your theory and guessEdit
Can Goku tell how strong an opponent is without actually having all-out fight with him? Sure, Goku can sense the strength of the Ki of his opponent. However, in numerous occasions, it has been shown that it’s not possible tell how strong your opponent is without having an all-out fight.
The point being made here is Goku can merely guess how strong his opponent is. He cannot tell how long his Super Saiyan 3 transformation remain. So what’s wrong to insist on fusion, which is a better option? Did Goku say he want to fight Kid Buu because he knew Kid Buu was weaker than other forms of Buu? No, he did not. He said he could win against Kid Buu but did not say he could win against Super Buu. But did he, at any point before defeating Kid Buu with Genki Dama, actually knew the nature of Super Saiyan 3 or Majin Buu? The strength of Kid Buu was unexpected. The fact that he ran out of power to remain in Super Saiyan 3 Transformation was also unexpected to him. That means, there are ample evidences pointed out that Goku did not know how fight would turn out beforehand.
I’ve said that “unless you say all-out fight is unnecessary to tell who is stronger”. Do you see the need here? Whether it was Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza, Cell, Kid Buu, Baby, One-star dragon, did you ever see Goku can know how fight would turn out beforehand?
In fact, if you remember, Kaioshin actually advised Goku to use Potara Earrings against Kid Buu. Did you not think Goku would have a better chance against Kid Buu if he did fuse with Vegeta? Why did he not do that again? If Goku knew that he would run out of energy beforehand, what would you expect Goku to do then?
The fact remains unchanged. It’s a guess about Goku’s power based on his action and words. But I still did not see any evidence here, was it?
If Goku transformed into Super Saiyan 3, charged against Gohan Buu, and lost, what would happen to the universe then? Did he have an option to try how far he can go as a Super Saiyan 3? When he lost great deal of power due to his transformation, it would not be helpful even to fuse with others. Remembered what Kaioshin said to Goku? It would be best for him to fuse with other in his base form with Potara Earrings.
After all, it went back to a root question. Did absorption always make Majin Buu stronger? Looking back the texts I included, taking from Funimation’s subtitle. It said after absorbing Grand Kaioshin, Majin Buu was somehow controllable. However, in the original context, it never said anything about Grand Kaioshin weakened him. I would repeat once again:
“That little Majin Boo now is the very first, most difficult one, then? Yes. His heart, which through absorption had allowed his power to even be reduced, has returned back to its original form. To an existence without any self-control, of evil itself.”
Did Kaioshin say absorption of Grand Kaioshin caused Majin Buu’s power to be reduced? No, he did not. Of course, you can make your guess or even come up with your own theory about how Majin Buu’s changed. In terms of the sequence of events, it’s not wrong to say that the form of Majin Buu that Bibidi can somehow control, which is Fat Buu, is the result of the absorption of Grand Kaioshin. But Kaioshin did not conclude to say that “Grand Kaioshin weakened him” or gave any other reason for the weakening of Buu, other than saying that absorption brought some senses to Majin Buu while weakening him, compared with original form, of course. Thljcl 22:51, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
^ ^ So, I'm assuming you looked at Goku's statements only, huh? You didn't look at the fact that SSJ2 Goku < Fat Buu, and SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu. You didn't look at the fact that Gotenks is on a completely different level than Goku. You didn't look at the fact that Super Buu is nearly as strong as Gotenks.
If Goku merely "suggested" fusion for Super Buu, why didn't he try SSJ3 on Super Buu like he did Kid Buu? You fail to understand that Goku was confident Super Buu would clobber him.
You said Goku couldn't just go SSJ3 and charge at Gohan-Buu, and you're right, such a risk is out of the question, even if Goku was stronger than Gohan. He also didn't take the risk against base Super Buu, so why try it on Kid Buu? Kid Buu, who was more likely to end everything whenever he wanted regardless of whether he was weaker than Super Buu or not? Why charge someone like that head on? If Goku couldn't tell Kid Buu's ki from an all-out fight, why did he risk (insist on, I should say) fighting Kid Buu instead of fusing if the universe was at stake?
You also used the argument of him not being able to tell the strength of opponents like Piccolo-Daimao, Vegeta, and Frieza right off the bat, which is true to an extent, but was he an idiot? Against Vegeta, he knew instantly a Kaioken x2 is no match for him, and against Vegeta (Oozaru) he knew not even a Kaioken x5 would work. He came to this conclusion long before they both went "all-out". Against Frieza, he knew he was an ant compared to half of Frieza's strength before Frieza even attacked him with that power. Goku took one look at Cell (Cell's suppressed power, no less) and immediately came to the conclusion that he was no match, and he was right. Kid Buu isn't the type to suppress his power, either - note that Goku witnessed Kid Buu's Planet Burst, along with his entire transformation process. This should be enough given how fast Goku could come to conclusions before, right? He was pretty confident for someone who didn't even know his own strength (SSJ3).
Goku was confident he could take him beforehand, and even after fighting him all-out, he concluded his SSJ3 would be enough if he's given the time, yet he didn't even consider this against the other Buus (except Fat Buu, and this was to buy time nonetheless). Super Buu also had an all-out fight with Gotenks, and Goku felt Super Buu's ki in Otherworld before Super Buu even fought seriously...before that, the only ki that was felt that far away was Goku's SSJ3...and note that this was before Super Buu was even serious (it was when Super Buu had just formed). Look, all the evidence points to Gohan > Gotenks > Super > Goku >/< Kid. It isn't just my "theory", I provided exact evidence along with context before. All you're doing is giving me questions considering the fate of the universe, since Goku didn't know his SSJ3's potential, and I've turned that around with the fact that Goku wouldn't do it with Super Buu but he did it with Kid Buu, who couldn't even think rationally. I highly doubt you even took the time to thoroughly read through my previous post, but I'm hoping you'll at least read through this one...
Princevegeta66 23:23, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
EDIT: I'm going to answer these below statement one by one in italics to make this easier for both of us. Princevegeta66 02:23, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
To Goku, it was either Super Saiyan 3 or Fusion, which fusion would obviously bring him greater chance to succeed. If he did try out Super Saiyan 3, would he still be able to fuse later on? As you said, with the entire Universe at risk, he had no luxury to gamble on Super Saiyan 3.
Yet he tried SSJ3 against Kid Buu, which is still a gamble. Yes, Goku did claim it was because Kid Buu was no longer a merged being. But the unity of Evil and Good Buu formed Super Buu who showed power beyond the original Fat Buu...Goku didn't even consider risking SSJ3 on this guy (he was about to against Gotenks-Buu, but only so that Gohan could get the Potara). If the removal of Fat Buu created a being above Super Buu, whom Goku didn't want to risk SSJ3 against, Goku would have to put "fairness" aside. When Goku wanted Gohan and Cell to have a fair fight, Piccolo continuously tried to convince Goku otherwise, and when he finally got through to Goku, he was more than willing to take a Senzu and head out himself. Goku knows when to put fairness and mercy aside (another example - his decision to spare Vegeta but his decision to spare Frieza - he spared Vegeta to fight him later, but he couldn't think to allow Frieza to live, as Frieza did much worse than Vegeta; he put mercy aside in this case).
He did not fully understand how Super Saiyan 3 could be. He did try not to use it, did he not? Until he decided to fight Kid Buu ALONE… Why did he fight Majin-Vegeta using Super Saiyan 2? If he did transform into Super Saiyan 3, albeit briefly, would Majin Buu ever be released?
My point is that he DIDN'T risk it on Super Buu, but he DID on Kid Buu...again, Goku knows when to put "fairness" aside, and in a case like this, he should know when to do what. As for Majin Vegeta, if he turned SSJ3 he'd hurt Vegeta's pride, and everyone seems to be wary of doing that for whatever reason (can't elaborate much on this, though).
Did Goku ever fight any absorbed form of Buu seriously in Super Saiyan 3? If he did so and lost, fusing with others would not help because fusion depended on the powers of whom are being fused.
If he fought Kid Buu as SSJ3 and lost, then things would turn out the same (thought, technically, he did lose, which is why he turned to the Genki Dama). Fact of the matter is, he didn't risk it on Super, but he did with Kid, and the fact that he's un-merged isn't all there is to it...Goku explicitly states a power decrease in Kid Buu (look at my post way above - the one where I included a few quotes).
Super Saiyan Gotenks vs. Fat Buu? As far as I knew, the one whom Gotenks fought against was Super Buu. Was there any evidence actually pointing that Super Buu became stronger than Fat Buu (before splitting into good Buu and evil Buu), other than being more evil?
Again, look at one of my quotes above. Piccolo was confident in SSJ Gotenks' ki, and asks Gotenks to display his speed, which was as great as his power if not greater. The only time Piccolo worries is when Gotenks attempts to go fight Buu when the fusion had less than a minute remaining. As soon as Super Buu is formed, Piccolo fears for the worst and orders than Gotenks (Goten & Trunks) train in the ROSAT immediately. Thus, Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu.
When Gotenks fought against Super Buu? Why did he turn into Super Saiyan 3 again?
As stated above, Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu. You can look at my first, long post for clarification on this. And because Super Buu > SSJ Gotenks, he turned SSJ3, and even then Super Buu was a challenge.
Gotenks was stronger than Goku? Interesting claim. But the evidence was?
Goku claims the fusion of Goten & Trunks will surpass even him, and this is before he realizes Gotenks would go SSJ3. SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu as I said numerous times, while SSJ2 Goku < Fat Buu. 'I'm beginning to wonder how thoroughly you read my first, drawn-out post, but whatever. Anyway, th'is implies that Goku believed an SSJ Gotenks would surpass him as an SSJ3 (this is totally up for debate, but both of them surpass Fat Buu - at least Fat Buu's power that we saw). SSJ Gotenks also trains in the ROSAT and gains SSJ3.
Now, I usually don't use things like the Daizenshu for proof, but let's use it now just to get a numerical idea of this power. Daizenshu claims that SSJ2 = SSJ x2, and SSJ3 = SSJ2 x 4, therefore SSJ3 = SSJ x 8. So, for Goku to have to be stronger than Gotenks, SSJ Gotenks would have to have less than one-eighths the power of SSJ3 Goku - this kind of power can't even stand up to Cell. Speaking of which, Cell > SSJ Goku, and SSJ Gotenks > Fat Buu, even more evidence that Gotenks > Goku. Of course, I only used Daizenshu to help give us both an idea, but hopefully you get what I'm trying to say (I usually never use the Daiz).
There are times when Goku made decision because he wanted to fight strong opponent in a fair manner. Why did he let Vegeta live again when he could kill him? Was not Vegeta then a significant threat to earth? I’m not saying that Goku was an idiot. How can Goku know he would be able to defeat Vegeta later on? All I wanted to say was things did not turn out as Goku would expect.
Ah, I actually spoke about the "fair" thing before. I didn't say you thought Goku was an idiot, sorry for that, but I was merely emphasizing. Anyways, like I said, Goku knows when to throw the fairness thing aside. Frieza, for example. Heck, he even destroyed Piccolo-Daimao, and that was Kid Goku, the one who didn't even like hurting others unless it was neccesary. Of course, I can't say what compelled him to spare Vegeta - possibly because in his eyes, Vegeta didn't do anything as bad as Piccolo-Daimao or Frieza. Of course, he knew, but seeing and knowing are two different things. My point is, if he found it necessary to take out Frieza, who wanted to rule the universe, he definitely found it necessary to annihilate Buu, who wanted to destroy the universe. And he was confident Gotenks would take out Fat Buu, and eventually became confident that SSJ3 Gotenks would take out Super Buu.
Back when Goku fought against Cell, did he realize he could become a Super Saiyan 3 in the future? If Goku did not turn into Super Saiyan, did he stand a chance against Freeza?
I'm not sure what exactly I'm supposed to counter here...when I said he knew Cell would clobber him, I meant with the power he currently had, not power he'd gain much later...same with Frieza (discounting SSJ later on). I hope that's what you meant.
Goku was learning while fighting. That’s why an all-out fight was important to compare strength. Goku learned that he was utterly no match with Freeza when he used Kaioken 20x. It was something to discover when he actually tried to fight Freeza with his full power. Of course, it did not mean that Freeza, who has much superior strength, needed to use all of his power. Only when both sides’ power were equal or near, they needed to go all out.
True, but he still knew Frieza wasn't bluffing just from Frieza's 50% power up. Even before going KKx20, he claims that he'll do what he can to kill Frieza even if Frieza's a million times more superior (he doesn't know when to quit).
Why try it on Kid Buu? Goku already answered that. “Kid Buu was not fused either”.
Again, Goku knows when to throw the fairness card aside. He didn't want to fuse against Super Buu only because he was a merged being, he was confident that he would get clobbered, even with Vegeta as back-up. In every other case, he was unsure, because he was unsure of SSJ3, but here he is confident that both he and Vegeta are no match for Super Buu. And again, he explicitly states a power decrease in Kid Buu (look at my [way] above quote.
That’s right. Being completely irrational, Kid Buu did not seem to want to suppress his power? As I said before, sensing Ki was only part of the story. It’s true that suppressing Ki would make others unable to tell your true strength. But that was not the whole story per se. You did recall that when Goku tried to fire a Kamehameha, his ki raised considerably. When it comes to your own presence of Ki, you suppress it to hide your presence; there are also cases that you are not actually suppressing the Ki, but raising the Ki in some occasions, such as using Kaioken or Kamehameha. Do you consider not using Kaioken as suppressing your Ki? Speaking of Ki, it normally went down you use power a lot; did it happen to Kid Buu as well?
Thljcl 00:58, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
Ok, so you're saying Goku felt he could beat Kid Buu before the power increases of ki attacks. Well, Goku thought Super Buu would kill him before seeing the power increases of ki attacks. Goku thought he could beat Kid Buu before engaging in battle, and thought he'd lose to Super Buu before engaging in battle. Couple these together, and you get Super > Kid - Goku thought different things about each Buu on similar occasions (other than the fact that he sensed Super Buu's battles from Otherworld and still believed he was no match for him, while after fighting with Kid, he thought he could potentially win). Also, all the Buus have vast reserves of energy - this is because they naturally have all of their power, whereas Goku can only match power like that by transforming into an SSJ3, which results in immediate ki consumption to the point that Goku felt he could've beaten Kid Buu had he not dragged the fight out. He also felt he'd win if he had time to power up; the Buus don't have to worry about this as they aren't transformed beings, they possess their power "naturally"
Anyways, that's all I've got for what you've posted. I have a feeling this'll never end, but I'm doing my best to convince you (and I assume you're doing the same), but no matter. Princevegeta66 02:23, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
"I would never know unless I tried," said GokuEdit
No, I did not say that Goku felt he could beat Kid Buu before Kid Buu raised his Ki. What I did say was Goku was not sure of both Super Saiyan 3 transformation and to which extent strength of Majin Buu of various forms lied. I’ve said repeatedly you should not take the words out of the context. While sensing Ki did help to know one’s strength, it never told the entire story. As an experienced fighter, he should have realized a simple fact which Goku have said since he was a young kid: I will not know how things would turn out unless I try. If Goku know beforehand to which extent Freeza strength lies beforehand, will he still try to do Kaioken ×20? Likewise, it’s fair to say he would not know how Potara earrings would lead him to be. He has never tried them before, has he not? Why did he try them? Because he believes in Kaioshin, who is supposed to be the highest god in the universe. Besides, he did see fusion before in the other world, albeit far less powerful and being done using fusion dance but not Potara Earrings.
He's unsure of both the Super Saiyan 3 transformation and the Potara, but he's confident that the Potara will do the job instead of SSJ3. He was also unsure of SSJ3 beating Fat Buu, though he claims that he most likely could have. He was unsure of the SSJ3 transformation against Kid Buu as well. But, he isn't unsure of it against Super Buu, he claims that it simply isn't enough.
The fact that he did the way he did, he fought the way he fought, meant that he was trying to do his best, trying to do what seemed sensible according to what he knew. The time when Goku commented on his own strength was when he, either talking to Kaioshin, Vegeta, or his son, which I said early on you should not forget what situation he was in. He said, at first, his power was on par with Vegeta, which was not true at all. However, it was what Goku said, can be deemed as true as long as we do not count Super Saiyan 3’s power and count Majin-Vegeta’s power. More importantly, it was then when he understood very well that his own strength did not matter as he would not be there to protect earth anymore. He did not initially say he would use fusion when Old Kaioshin gave his life to him, did he? Only when Old Kaioshin asked him about the strategy and said about his worry of Goku’s chance of victory, Goku only paused and thought, thinking that fusion would be better. It was then Kaioshin offered him a pair of Potara Earrings. What do you think? When somebody gave his life to you for the sake of universe and a pair of Potara Earrings, was it time for you be reckless to gamble on something you were unsure of, which Goku has said repeatedly about Super Saiyan 3?
Goku agreed with being brought back to life because it would've been better than letting Gohan die and Buu destroy everything. As you said, he had no idea what he would do afterwards, but he knew he may be able to do something he was brought back...if I recall, he did suggest the fusion dance, upon which Old Kai suggested the Potara instead. Also, Old Kai gave him the Potara to fight against Gotenks-Buu (later Gohan-Buu). Naturally, Goku wouldn't gamble SSJ3 on these opponents - even you acknowledge that Gotenks-Buu surpasses Kid Buu. Vegito then enters Buu's body to remove Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo. But, as we know, he defused, and Vegeta crushes his earring, and Goku does so as well. Their goal from here is to weaken Super Buu, as it's plainly obvious that they can't beat Gohan-Buu. Yet after detaching the pods, Goku still claims that they're no match and suggests the fusion dance (as the earrings are gone, and the dance should be sufficient for base Super Buu). Old Kai insisted on the Potara fusion on Gotenks-Buu; Goku wouldn't think of risking SSJ3 on Gotenks-Buu or Gohan-Buu. But their goal inside Buu is to weaken Super Buu, and this is done, yet Goku still believes that fusion is absolutely necessary? Remember, before he's simply unsure of SSJ3, but here, he is positive, and time and time again, it's shown that once Goku comes to a solid conclusion, he's usually right. And then, once Kid Buu is formed, Goku claims "We did it!", indicating a ki decrease. Afterwards, he claims that he could have defeated Kid Buu with SSJ3 (after fighting for quite some time). I'm not saying Goku > Kid Buu, it's more of Goku >/< Kid Buu - it could've gone either way. This is a different story against Super Buu, though, even base Super Buu.
Goku explicitly asked if he should become a Super Saiyan before using Potara Earrings. Did he not? The truth was Super Saiyan transformation would strain his physical body or even cost him a lot of energy. It would be best for him to fuse in base form using Potara Earrings, more importantly, reserve energy before fusing with somebody. Did Goku ever make conclusive judgment based on sensing Ki alone? There are several occasions that Goku would try his best even though the odds are against him.
Once again, this was versus Gotenks-Buu - Goku wouldn't risk SSJ3 on an enemy of his caliber. Old Kai made sure that Goku would make no slip up with the Potara as Gotenks-Buu was truly a formidable enemy. But why doesn't this change then Goku & Vegeta weaken Super Buu back into base? Base Super Buu, who was nearly killed by Gotenks and looked like a chicken-weakling against Gohan?
When he fought along with Vegeta against Gohan Buu, why did he fight in Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, instead of Super Saiyan 3, while trying his best to convince Vegeta to cooperate? He certainly realized allowing a long-drawn fight between him and Gohan Buu would mean that he would spend too much energy, which was something he tried to avoid when his strategy was to fuse with Vegeta.
Again, Gohan-Buu is far too strong for the likes of Goku, even if you believe that Goku is stronger than or could potentially beat base Super Buu. The slightest energy loss could mean their downfall. But why doesn't this change after Super Buu is weakened? And why is it that it does change once Kid Buu is born? Goku would know better than to risk SSJ3 on Kid Buu if he was so sure it wouldn't work on Super Buu - at this point in time, fairness didn't have a say in the matter.
You repeatedly try to theorize that Goku made conclusive judgment of his opponent’s strength before even fighting him. I told, time and time, by citing various examples, it is simply not true. Put it in plain words, while Goku asserted that he would be no match for Super Buu, Fat Buu, Gotenks Buu, or Gohan Buu, did he actually know how things would turn out beforehand? If not, what he said would be meaningful only when we thought also the situation that Goku was in. When we do not believe Goku would know whether he would win a fight against an unknown strong opponent, why should we believe Goku would know whether he would lose a fight by fighting an unknown strong opponent? It’s just: I do not know unless I try. It’s as simple as that. What makes it difficult is that the fight is not a simple competition, it also involves the fate of universe, personal pride, thought, and feeling as well. Remember Vegeta playing Rock, Paper, and Scissor with Goku to determine who fought Kid Buu first? Do you think Vegeta could not sense Kid Buu’s Ki? Do you think Vegeta actually thinks he can beat Kid Buu? He later admits himself only Goku is capable of fighting Kid Buu, so why do it anyway? It’s about pride at one thing; he also no longer wants to rely on Potara Earrings, which Goku later seems to agree on.
First thing; while Goku didn't fight Super Buu when he came to the conclusion that fusion was the only way out, he still witnessed fights between Super Buu and his sons, where Super Buu clearly showed his full power. Secondly, you still ignore than Gotenks is stronger than Goku, by a longshot, and Super Buu is still strong enough to challenge him. SSJ Gotenks was stated to have greater ki than Fat Buu (indirectly stated by Piccolo) and SSJ2 Goku's ki is inferior to Fat Buu's. Look at the fight between SSJ Gotenks and Super Buu - Piccolo marvels at the power of even Base Gotenks, acting as though he has a chance on several occasions. Same thing when he's a Super Saiyan. But when Piccolo witnessed Majin Vegeta's battle with Fat Buu, he claimed Vegeta had no chance. Would it be safe' to say the result would be the same with SSJ2 Goku? If SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ2 Goku and potentially in the same tier as SSJ3 Goku, then it's safe to say that the hypothetical SSJ2 Gotenks >>> SSJ2 Goku by far. Then, you could say SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku. Both have had little practice with the forms, Gotenks simply achieving it much later in a shorter amount of time.
As for the pride, this ties back to Goku saying that Kid Buu is no longer a merged being - whether he or Vegeta believe that Vegeta has a chance, he wanted Vegeta to have a chance at Kid Buu (though later, he claims that he wasn't thinking of Vegeta during his fight and wished he had finished Kid Buu). But again, if Goku feels it's worth risking allowing Vegeta to fight Kid Buu, even if it was for some time, he must be confident Kid Buu can be defeated without fusion, whereas Super Buu couldn't (again, Old Kai entrusted the Potara and his life to Goku when Gotenks-Buu was at large...naturally Goku wouldn't gamble SSJ3 against someone like that, but it doesn't change again base Super Buu). Vegeta is full of pride, and so is Goku, but Goku isn't the type to ride on his pride alone. Like I said before, there were times when Goku was willing to throw fairness aside, and he would do it here as well if Kid Buu were stronger than Super Buu. If Goku was unsure of his SSJ3 against Buu, even at this point, he wouldn't have crushed his Potara again (willingly, this time). I'm not saying Goku was sure, mind you, but it's clear that he was far more confident against Kid Buu than Super Buu.
Take a look what Goku and others said when Goku lost his Super Saiyan 3 Transformation:
1. Y- you stupid bastard! You let all that pain I went through go to waste! (Vegeta)
2. What do you think you're doing, Kakarrot!? (Vegeta)
3. S- sorry, Vegeta... (Goku)
4. D- damn it all! It was never any problem when I was dead... (Goku)
5. It appears that being Super Saiyan 3 in a living body (Goku)
6. eats up quite a bit of Ki after all... (Goku)
7. We've had it. We really have had it. (Goku)
8. …
9. T- this is bad. He's going to be done in like that. (Goku)
10. Kaioshins! Dende! Can you hear me!? (Vegeta)
It’s pretty clear things did not went as Goku originally anticipated. You can theorize how Goku can beat Kid Buu in his Super Saiyan 3; but don’t make your guess as it was a fact. Make no mistake, I’m not saying Goku cannot beat Kid Buu with his Super Saiyan 3 transformation. I’m only telling what was happening in manga / anime.
You're right that things didn't go as Goku anticipated. Goku does state that he could've beaten Kid Buu had he not dragged the fight too long (though he was wrong about needing to charge up for a minute). Which is why I've said that Goku >/< Kid Buu. I'm saying that Goku > Kid is a fact, don't get me wrong. But it does not change what I've stated above. Based on what was happening in the manga/anime, Kid Buu's ki decreased when he transformed. Of course, you can argue that this wasn't his true ki, but Goku couldn't have known Super Buu's true ki either, before fighting him. But if Super Buu's general ki > Kid Buu's general ki, then Goku would've used that to believe that Kid Buu's ki did, in fact, decrease. Although Goku can never truly know one's power, he can always get an idea, as shown by his conclusion of Cell's power, for example, which turned out to be, more or less, correct. If your ki decreases when you transform, then that transformed state has less ki than the one before. On top of this, Goku already sensed base Super Buu prior to this (inside him), and still believes he can "manage something" against this Buu, whereas he feels utterly hopeless before and after sensing base Super Buu. Sensing Super Buu's initial ki, he thinks "We're going to lose, we have to fuse". Sensing Kid Buu's initial ki, he thinks "Maybe we can manage something". After seeing Super Buu, he's ecstatic when he feels the decrease in Kid Buu's ki, and still feels he can supposedly kill Kid Buu with SSJ3 (though, as we saw, he really messed up that chance). Again, going against Old Kai's wishes meant charging Gotenks/Gohan-Buu head on, not base Super Buu, whom he fully believes would destroy him. Even if he could've defeated Kid Buu, there's a ki decrease in Kid Buu, and that's fact. After fighting it out with Kid Buu, he still feels he could(have) potentially won. That's fact. It's a different story with Super Buu.
Thljcl 06:41, July 23, 2012 (UTC)
