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Forum What's physically stronger, an ultra saiyan or a super saiyan 2?


[[Category:{{{1}}}|What's physically stronger, an ultra saiyan or a super saiyan 2?]]


Ignoring the speed difference, what is physically stronger, an ultra super saiyan or a super saiyan 2?

SSJ2 obviously. USSJ2 Trunks could barely hurt Perfect Cell he was just toying with him yefl Power and went all out. Ss4 gogetaLssj4 20:07, June 10, 2011 (UTC)

Well yeah Cell was just toying with ultra trunks, but thats because he was so slow his power didn't make a difference. But Cell did state that when trunks went ultra super saiyan he was stronger then him.

ULTRA FOR SURE DID U SEE THIS GUYS MUSCLES!

Obviously SSJ2[]

Yes, I know that USSJ Future Trunks was physically much stronger than Perfect Cell, but that was before Perfect Cell had used his full power. SSJ2 Gohan's physical strength surpassed Perfect Cell's even after the android had powered up to full power, which means that SSJ2 Gohan is physically stronger than USSJ Future Trunks.

Ultra[]

It was stated by Cell (see above) that USSJ was much stronger than him and could have killed him if he wasn't as slow as a turtle having its legs held back by a snail. Same with Buff Cell; he was a lot stronger than SSJ2 Gohan, but he was too slow to hit him. --DARK 21:31, June 10, 2011 (UTC)

Cell was basically lying when he said Trunks was stronger. Cell wasnt even using anything close to his full power, and demonstrated he can do the same transformation trunks did with ease. Cells full power > Trunks. But as shown by gohan vs cell, gohan can tank full power cell but trunks cant handle supressed cell. case closed.

Okay then...So half your argument is based on your opinion (Cell was just lying for shits and giggles) and the other half from Gohan being able to dodge (notice: he dodged instead of blocked). Cell was refering to how Trunks' current form was much stronger than the one he was in. If USSJ wasn't so slow, he could have killed Cell in his Perfect Form (JUST the Perfect Form, not the Buff Form). I also seem to remember a comment about Cell's Buff Form having more power than Gohan's SSJ2, but, just as he himself stated to Trunks, it was too slow to hit Gohan (once again, leading into my example of Gohan dodging the attacks instead of blocking them out right). --DARK 06:48, June 14, 2011 (UTC)
Look Cell did everything for the sport of it. He held back to test his strength. Didnt he say him and MSSJ Goku were equal? We know that to be false. We know that Trunks was not able to take a punch from Cell as well as Gohan did. Trunks was beaten in a few hits. Gohan tanked everything head on. And Cell never gained more power than SSJ2 Gohan. Being too slow just added to the problem of lack of power needed to win.
Trunks had power so he should have been able to tank Cell's hits like Gohan did.
Can you guys sign your post so I know who is who? I agree with whoever said Cell was just joking. It isnt opinion its fact. We all know how Cell likes to toy with his opponets and how he acts like he was actually hurt but wasnt. Cell calimed USSJ2Trunks was above him yet he was talking about him in his Suppresed Form. Cell did'nt even go to his Full Power. I agree he said something along the lines of "Well Goku impressive indeed I was giving it my all" or something like that in a sarcastic tone. Cell was just joking. Ultra is not strong then SSJ2. Even MSSJ is stronger then USSJ2 Trunks. Ss4 gogetaLssj4 15:32, June 20, 2011 (UTC)
Umm....no MSSJ is definitly not stronger in brute strength compared to USSJ.
USSJ is a complete waste of a transformation... While it does give a significant strength boost, it isn't THAT great of a strength increase. That's why even FPSSJ > USSJ, because it allows the user to conserve on all of the energy he would otherwise have to use to maintain the SSJ form. That's just for FPSSJ... SSJ2 is far superior to FPSSJ, so the logic looks like this: SSJ2 > FPSSJ > USSJ. So guess what? SSJ2 > USSJ. Even Trunks himself was amazed that Gohan increased his strength so dramatically WITHOUT LOSING SPEED. While USSJ looks cool, it's really more bark than bite... SSJ2 wins, hands down.
- D4RK KN1GH7 07:46, May 29, 2012
To the guy who said that Cell was stronger and was joking, I watched the Cell Games Saga on youtube, and I don't recall Cell EVER acknowledging that MSSJ Goku was actually his equal, sarcastically or otherwise. Actually, Goku read enough of Cell's power level to know that he was completely outclassed by Cell (as he put it "he'd lick me." Keep in mind that this happened immediately after Goku and Cell met at the ring during the 10 day wait). In any case, I know Cell generally likes to hold back and then gradually increases his power (almost similar to Palpatine), but I'm doubtful Cell would lie about something being stronger than him, being the narcissist that he is. Heck, even when doing the "warm up kick" on Krillin immediately after his transformation, he just couldn't resist unveiling his full power to him very briefly (as Krillin told Future Trunks after being healed). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 13:54, December 24, 2013 (UTC)
Edit: On topic, I'd say Ultra is about the same as SSJ2, maybe stronger in terms of raw power output if we buy Vegeta's claim that the ASSJ (which is technically weaker in terms of brute strength than USSJ) is triple the power of a Super Saiyan. And while Cell maybe the type to let his guard down and slowly dominate the opponent, he was most likely being honest when he said the USSJ is far stronger than him, especially when he was shown initially being very afraid of Trunks' transformation. The only other time he's gotten even initially afraid of a transformation was with the Super Saiyan 2, and as you already know, Cell was obviously outclassed by SSJ2 Gohan (at least in Perfect Form, maybe even Super Perfect Form). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:21, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
  whene did vegeta say that??   The         R-                              -Less      One                                             20:53, December 31, 2013 (UTC)
To answer your question, it was in the episode where Vegeta first unveils his ASSJ form. I think Super Vegeta or something like that? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 19:23, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

no he said that he was 3 times stronger in his base form not that ASSJ is 3xSSJ and it was only in the dub so don't take it srly   The         R-                              -Less      One                                             21:14, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

SS2[]

Ultra Trunks managed to give Cell a few punches, but they didn't harm him, while Ssj2 Gohan's 2 punches was enough to do the job.

Super Saiyan 2 Wins[]

I remember this old forum. I haven't commented here in a while. Anyway, I would like to comment again. USSJ2 is in no way stronger or even near the strenght of SSJ2. If USSJ2 Trunks was as strong or stronger then SSJ2 Gohan. Explain why he was getting smacked around like a rag doll by Perfect Cell huh? Yet SSJ2Gohan easily took all his (Cell) attacks head on and took little to no damage. SSJ2Gohan made Cell go into his Buff form. Which made him slow but powerful. But SSJ2 Gohan still easily beat him. So if USSJ2 Trunks is stronger. Explain why Cell didn't do the same agaisnt Trunks as he did against Gohan by using his Buff form huh? USSJ2 Trunks speed wouldn't matter if none of Cell's attacks could not hurt him. I mean their is plenty of evidence provided to say SSJ2 Gohan >>>> USSJ2 Trunks. Cell took Trunks attacks and was fine. While SSJ2 Gohan destroyed Cell. Sure Trunks couldn't hit him but if he was actually stronger then Gohan. His attacks that DID hit should have massively hurt Cell. Which they didn't. And if you guys wanna debate on it somemore. Just wait tell wednesday and thursday this week. On DBZ Kai to refresh your memory to see how much stronger Cell is then Trunks. Cell was toying. So overall, SSJ2 Gohan > Perfect Cell > USSJ2 Trunks. EntertainmentFan14 18:47, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

ss2 by for a ultra saiyan is a almost assended super saiyan174.74.121.29 22:05, October 15, 2011 (UTC)NOLAN

What? EntertainmentFan14 00:32, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

SSJ2 and here's why[]

I say SSJ2 because:

USSJ is an evolution from the ASSJ, while SSJ2 is the step that goes beyond the FPSSJ, which is the super saiyan mode at it's fullest. So, considering the base forms, FPSSJ > ASSJ, then the evolution of FPSSJ, which is SSJ2, beats the evolution of ASSJ, the USSJ.

I'd say Super Saiyan 2. Ssj2 Gohan managed to immobilise cell with one punch. Ssj2gohan99 08:30, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Definietly SS2[]

Cell was easily smashing Trunks to the ground with minor hits while in surpressed form while Gohan took a direct punch to the face from Full-Powered Perfect Cell and was barely phased.Gohan ssj2Gohan is Supreme, Supreme is Gohan. I...am Supreme Gohan!Gohan ssj2 17:30, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

TrunksLongHair3Trunks-with-long-hair-trunks-17165929-480-379 User:Dbzfan999sigFutureTrunksJpgfjdjkgjkg 17:51, October 25, 2011 (UTC) At that time him and Trunks had different power but I think they are equal.


While ASSJ and USSJ had its advantages at the time, SSJ2 is superior. Let's put it this way, Vegeta knew that if he went USSJ he would lose speed and energy to gain strength. Trunks wasn't intelligent enough to find that weakness. USSJ Trunks > Perfect Cell (Surpressed). Cell's power level was surpressed when he fought both Vegeta and Trunks in his perfect form. Buffing himself up? Way beyond USSJ standards. SSJ2, on the other hand was fueled by rage, so Gohan sustaining it wasn't problem, it was his judgement. You see, in DBZ, when Goku first transformed SSJ against Frieza, this transformation altered his judgment. Because of the rage he had, he also had sustained energy. When Gohan transformed against Cell, he didn't have a problem to uphold the form because of the anger that fueled him for energy to great power and speed. People also have to remember that in order to reach SSJ2, you have to fully restrain the resentible feeling in an SSJ form, hence why Trunks and Vegeta never transformed fully. Also, it was added by Master Roshi when Goku first transformed that he didn't have full control of his power. "Goku is hanging on to who he is." -Master Roshi. Because of this, Goku was struggling, at first, with Frieza's 100% form until the end of the battle. I would assume the same for Gohan. When Goku and Gohan mastered SSJ, they could (without a struggle), sustain their SSJ form for days, if not weeks. So they conserved a lot of energy. Boom. SSJ2. Even with Super Perfect Cell, Gohan had the advantage, of course, if he wasn't injured or battle worn. So, here is my breakdown

SSJ2 Gohan (not injured or battle worn)  > Super Perfect Cell > Buff Perfect Cell > Perfect Cell (Full Power) > USSJ Trunks > SSJ Goku (Full Power) > Perfect Cell (Surpressed) > ASSJ Vegeta.

Pros and Cons to ASSJ and USSJ

Pros: Strength

Cons: Reduced speed, alters judgment, and more energy output.

Pros and Cons to SSJ2

Pros: Strength, speed, less energy output.

Cons: Alters judgement.

As you can see ASSJ and USSJ is 1 out of 4. SSJ2? 3 out of 4.


Trust me guys, I've done my research. 15 years worth. Hope this helps!

-Josh

It would depend on the situation at hand.[]

personaly i think Super Sayain 2 is stronger than the Ultra Super Sayain but when you go agenst another slow person, than i see no reson not to use the Ultra Super Sayain form. Hurley10 12:51, May 29, 2012 (UTC)Hurley10

Ultra Super Saiyan (Physically)[]

The USSj form was enough to land great blows against Perfect Cell, but Ultra Trunks did not land many due to lack of speed in this form. However the only reason SSj2 Gohan was able defeat Perfect/Super Perfect Cell was because the SSj2 form has a greater energy output than all the Super Saiyan branch forms. So PHYSICALLY the USSj is stronger. Energywise, the SSj2 is stronger. -PrinceTrunks235

Read the manga[]

To the person writing in bold (NOT bold and italic), if you remember correctly, even Piccolo said in the manga chapter "Trunks surpasses his father!" (which is the OFFICIAL source for DBZ):

Piccolo: "What incredible power! It exceeds even Cell's! I never thought I would see the like!"

Bulma: "Who are you talking about?"

Piccolo: "I'm talking about Trunks, of course!"

Bulma: "Trunks? My little boy?"

Can you argue against that?

SSJ2[]

There had to have been a MARKED difference between SSJ2 and all the variants of SSJ1 for it to be considered a whole 'notha level. That's my reasoning for saying that SSJ2 is stronger than USSJ. It's not just speed. Goku SS3Shakuran13Tapion with bladeThisDragonFistGokuHirudegarnMovie13endsKonatsian wizard with effectsNOW!SS3Rush 22:49, May 29, 2012 (UTC)


ssj 2 puts out more power and speed but it lacks the bulk and muscle power but in turn this is made up by the exta power of ki that is produced resulting in less need for bigger size thus i would say trunks ussj is same in brute strength as gohan ssj2 but gohan woulde win out wright becuse of the ability to maintain his form for longer and produce more ki but the mager factor is the massive speed increase. if it was an arm wrestling match there equel (but if they where to fight gohan woulde own) maybe slight edge to trunks .

but also the ssj2 form that produces a constant high produce of power ussj is less reliable as seen when trunks whas fighting cell his power spiked drastically mainly due to the efort put just into maintaining the form but ussj power is roughly the same but completely un-reliable .

sooooo there is not much differance in just brute strength between them.


kd

Equal[]

The forms are equal in power but the goal is to increase strength without losing speed (Gohan did it when he went SS2; Future Trunks said it himself.Cell did say that USSJ Trunks was much stronger than he was. The same goes for SS2 Gohan. The only differences are bulkiness and speed.

They are equal[]

When Gohan goes SSJ2 against Cell Goku points out that he managed to achieve the same boost in strength without losing speed, so they are the same in terms of strength but SSJ2 makes you faster as well



---Well you know that in physics impulse =speed x strenght. That would mean if USSJ Trunks and SSJ2 Gohan have the same strenght, Gohan can kick harder cause he swings faster... making him more powerful. But if they would play arm wrestling, I'd say draw...

I didn't explain it very well but whatever..---


If pure physical strength is the goal it depends Solely on the individual. while SS2 is a higher Ki usand channeling level, that is metaphysical. bulky or not. Liquid speaker (talk) 08:12, May 28, 2013 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 is much, much stronger.[]

Argument of the opponents: Cell said Trunks was stronger than him as an USSJin.

Reply: He did indeed say so, but he was referring to himself as he was at the moment. Which was just a small fraction of his full power. His full power was a few times more than enough to overwhelm the maximum output of Trunks as an USSjin.

Really, even FP-SSjin is a better form than USSJin. But on the other hand it completely replaces USSJ. As Vegeta explained when Goku and Gohan went out of the RoSaT: Goku and Gohan have mastered the transformation to the point of a habit, and "even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very low! They've thought it through..." That means that a FP-SSjin allows the Super Saiyan to increase his power level to the maximum (as the "Full-Power" bit implies) but without the rapid stamina drain, and the bloated muscle mass. Plus, a FP-SSjin is well able to maintain proportional speed, as opposed to an USSJin who cannot, due to his weight.


And SSjin2 is way, way above a FP-SSjin. The official multiplier is 2x, but it's probably much, much higher.

You guys mix up speed/strength in fights.[]

You guys don't seem to be seperating strength and speed, you guys confuse it up when you talk about fights with cell.

Trunks in his huge buffed form is stronger then cell, power wise/physically, however, he did not obtain a speed increase and infact speed got taken away. SSJ2 Gohan got a huge power boost like trunks, however instead of a speed decrease he got a huge increase in speed. Speed is the key factor with cell. Cell is very fast, even if you match his power or more, if you can't match his speed or more he wins. Trunks lacked it. However SSJ2 is a much more focused, potent form. Trunks and Vegeta try to ascend, but they do so in the wrong way, only increasing there power. Its not on purpose, they don't know how to transform into SSJ2. Its like trying to go SSJ1 for the first time. Vegeta knew of the weakness so he only increased his power to a certain point so he doesn't lose his speed, something he didn't explain to his son trunks. Which he found out himself.

- PunWisp

USSJ or SSJ2[]

For me Ultra Super Saiyan is a much stronger and Super Saiyan 2 is a little weaker. But, Super Saiyan 2 is way speedier than Ultra Super Saiyan .

According to speed:

Super Saiyan 2 is way faster than Ultra Super Saiyan because of the smaller (but still strong) muscles that lightens the Saiyan .


According to strength:

Ultra Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 because of the huge muscles that is very, very strong.


So if this forum is about PHYSICALLY stronger, so I say Ultra Super Saiyan is stronger. ~DBZFan100

Definitely SSJ2![]

I don't know if you were really serious while asking this question but if you read the wikia's layout then the answer will be what I said above. And.. according to my personal opinion.. IT'S A SSJ2 WHO WILL BEAT AN USSJ2'S ASS IN LESS THAN SECOND. Why? Because, SSJ2 is wayyyyyy faster, heavier, .......................... and far more STORNGER than an USSJ2. Perfect Cell was nothing to SSJ2 Gohan while he proved to be far stronger than an USSJ2 both in speed and strength which is why SSJ2 was needed to match up with him. Mysterious Luster (talk) 15:49, September 29, 2012 (UTC)


@Mysterious Luster

I don't think you understand this is abotu STRENGTH not SPEED, that's been stated about 5 times and you still don't understand, I think ssj2 is stronger purely because its above fpssj.

Ssj2 hands down[]

Ultra super saiyan was physically stronger than perfect cell but it wasnt NEAR as physically strong as ssj2 was. Ssj2 is in a whole another league--Ssj3gogeta96 (talk) 21:59, December 10, 2012 (UTC)ssj3gogeta96

SSJ2 Wins[]

When Gohan transformed into ssj2, Trunks stated that he got stronger without losing speed, maybe implying that ssj2 is a little stronger and a lot faster than ussj.


SSJ2 hands down[]

SSJ2 has the speed and power advantage. Full power cell couldn't even mess with Gohan, while Trunks USSJ was getting his ass kicked --  CN  Leave Me A Message  Contribs      17:06, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

The power chart goes like this:

False SSJ: x25 (seen in dbz movie 4)

SSJ: x50 base

USSJ: x60 base

USSJ2: x75  base

SSJ2: x100 base

SSJ3: x400 base

Fusion: unknown

Golden Oozaru: unknown

SSJ4: unknown


the above is listed power level modifiers. not physical strength. physical strength would be dependant on the individual.Liquid speaker (talk) 21:39, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

I guess ultra super saiyan, but it depends on the training too.

There shouldn't even be a debate[]

To all those saying Ussj is stronger than ssj2, wake up, Cell himself likes to bluff. If it were stronger than Than Cell would have perish from all the hits Trunks delivered prior. Gohan gave Cell 2 punches which crippled him. Ssj2 is the perfect ascension from ssj, Ussj and Assj are like the fssj form, which we all know is much weaker than ssj. you have to remember cell was suppresing his power while fighting trunks. if cell powered up to his max, then he would easily overpower trunks in brute strengh. but cell did not power up to his max, because it would be a overkill!. super saiyan 2 kid gohan killed the cell juniors in one blow. each of them were just as strong as cell when he suppressed his power/ half as strong as cell. even vegeta and trunks who trained in the chambers after both losing to cell could not beat them in their acsended super saiyan form.

SSJ2[]

Ssj2 is a lot stronger and faster. Ussj trunks did hurt cell, but with ssj2 gohan, he only layed 2 punches and cell was left speechless. 

SSJ2, because Grade 5 > Grade 3[]

SSJ2 was called SSJ grade 5 in the guidebooks before Goku coined the term in the Buu saga, and the grades basically escalate in power.

I Thinks Both Forms Are Equal[]

When Trunks asceneded to the level of an Ultra Super Saiyan, his power surpassed that of Perfect Cell's. However, the form was useless in the end becasue Cell proved to be much faster than Trunks. 

When Gohan ascended to Super Saiyan 2, he not only outclassed Perfect Cell in strength, but in speed as well. During their fight, Trunks even says, "He did it! He managed to increase his strength without losing speed!" 

This statement leads me to believe that maybe the two forms were equal when it came to strength, but USSJ was just too slow.

Evolve 20 (talk) 14:00, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

^Trunks indeed surpassed Cell's power but that happened when Cell had just transformed and was suppressed. He was only using a percentage of his true power at that moment. His full strenght was shown during the fight against SSJ2 Gohan. I don't think Trunks would be stronger than Fully Powered Cell. When he was powering up, the Z Fighters were amazed by how "the whole universe was shaking" from Cell's power. Trunks wouldn't be surprised by Cell's full power, if he was stronger than that. Oko500 (talk) 15:55, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

You make a good point Oko500.

Evolve 20 (talk) 20:54, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

USSJ = SSJ2[]

I would say they are equal in power, but only in terms of physical strength. Cell clearly tells Trunks (not only in the anime, but in the manga as well) that Trunks is stronger. Cell was not bluffing, because Piccolo noted it as well. A lot of people here are saying that Cell was not using his full power, and to an extent that is true. That is not the reason Cell said Trunks was stronger, however, and this is where people are getting confused/misguided. Cell meant that Trunks' brute strength surpassed his own, and he didn't mean the small amount of power he was using to fight against Trunks. He meant overall. In terms of raw power and physical strength, Trunks>Cell.

Now, Trunks was not able to do any real damage as 1 - Cell was incredibly fast, and 2 - the form Trunks was using (SSJ Grade 3, Ultra Super Saiyan, USSJ, whatever you wish to call it) made him incredibly slow, and the power went to his head, clearly bringing out his Saiyan mindset, thus clouding his judgment. This is why Vegeta did not use the form. BUT, the raw power output of the form IS equal to SSJ2, and there is no debate to be had. The multiplier is the exact same, 100x the user's base power.


ie

SSJ (Super Saiyan) - Base Power x50

ASSJ (Ascended Super Saiyan) - SSJ x1.5 (or base power x75)

USSJ (Ultra Super Saiyan) - SSJ x2 (or base power x100)

SSJ2 (Super Saiyan 2) - SSJ x2 (or base power x100)



Now, a few things to note and clear up so I don't get flamed for this.

1 - Yes, I know SSJ2 Gohan>USSJ Trunks. The reason being is not because the multiplier for SSJ2 is bigger (because it isn't - it's the same as USSJ) but because Gohan's base power far exceeded Trunks' base power. This is why people think SSJ2>USSJ, when SSJ2 is actually = USSJ (ONLY in terms of power output)

2 - Worthy of note is when Trunks sees Gohan go SSJ2, and says that he "did it right" - increasing his power, while retaining his speed as well. Trunks sensed that Gohan's power was increased by the same multiplier of his own power, which is why he did not note how much Gohan's power had been multiplied, rather he noted Gohan's speed instead. This is important, as the speed increase is the difference. USSJ and SSJ2 have the same power output, but SSJ2 comes with faster reflexes, better agility, better power management, less energy consumption, and of course, far more speed.

You guys are all forgetting about powering up.[]

Cell did indeed say that Trunks was stronger than him, but he was referring to himself as he was at the moment. Initially after the transformation from his 2nd form, that is. Cell would obviously not brag about his huge latent power reserves if he needed only a tiny fraction of them to handle the opposition, now would he?

I like explaining such stuff with numbers, so I'll do it below. Keep in mind that while the numbers are arbitrary, the relationships and reasoning behind them is all based strictly on manga content and is not a matter of opinion.

I'll start with SSj Vegeta and ASSj Vegeta post 1st RoSaT. He trained his butt off, got a huge increase in power, also got ASSj.

2nd Form Cell:

Power: 50 Speed 50

SSj Vegeta

Power 50: Speed 50. There are hints SSj might have been enough to handle Cell, but I'd rather stay on the safe side here.

Vegeta did go ASSj right off the bat in that battle.

ASSj Vegeta:

Power: 100 Speed: 90 (Here I'm just assuming that the speed increase is offset slightly by the increased muscles, but is still apparent compared to SSj1). Cell was shown to be able to power up too, though! Remember? So:

2nd Form Cell, Full Power:

Power 75 Speed 75

Still obviously outclassed by Vegeta, despite the powerup. The numbers seem just about fine and fit the manga events neatly. Follow me thus far? Cell then plays to Vegeta's pride and convinces him to let him absorb Android 18, and we get the seemingly invincible Perfect Cell.

Perfect Cell:

Power 180, Speed 180 

Now everyone thinks that when Cell said that USSj Trunks was more powerful than him, he meant absolute, full power. But obviously, Cell showed that he had latent power only later! He was obviously referring to his current power! So, the powers of Trunks compared to FP Cell should be something like:

Trunks ASSj:

Power: 95 Speed: 85,5

Trunks USSj:

Power: 237,5 Speed 128,25 (I interpret "the muscles kill my speed" as "they nullify most of the speed boost I should have received and therefore make me disproportionately slow" instead of "they literally make me slower, even though I'm stronger". But that's just me).

So obviously, even though Trunks is a good bit stronger than Cell's current "me", he can't land a hit. He realizes the battle is pointless and quits. Then Trunks and Vegeta notice that Goku's way of powering up is much better, the Full Power Super Saiyan. They decide to go the same route during their second visit to RoSaT - that's right - Vegeta and Trunks are regular SSj1s at the Cell games in the manga. Them returning as ASSjs is just the anime's way of confusing you.

Let's take a look at the Cell Games powerlevels.

Perfect Cell is at 180 power and speed, as before.

Goku as a FP-SSj can now freely power up, which he showed in Korin's tower beforehand - surprising all the Z-fighters with just 50% of his power. At the Cell Games, though, Goku fights Cell first with no powering up, a warm-up if you will. So:

Relaxed FPSSj Goku:

Power 178 Speed: 178

But then Cell suggests they power up, which they do: Goku goes to his max and Cell goes upward, to what everyone else also thinks is his max. This is the second time Cell let the others believe he was going all out. And for the second time he was bluffing.

Powered Up Perfect Cell:

Power: 540 Speed: 540

That makes Max FPSSj Goku a bit lower but enough to make this an equal fight.

Power: 534 Speed 534

As you can see from this impossible to ignore event from the manga (anime too, for that matter), not only USSj Trunks cannot hope to defeat Perfect Cell, he is in fact vastly inferior to FPSSj Goku. SSj2 is still not even a level of power we can compare anything to yet.

I'll continue nevertheless, just to demonstrate the difference in realms.

The fight between Goku and Cell is concluded, Cell gets a Senzu bean and is restored to 540 across the board. Gohan steps in - unimpressed with what Goku has shown in the battle. He initially dodges Cell's blows and is unaffected by his punches. Gohan is definitely stronger than Goku here.

FPSSj Gohan:

Power: 600 Speed: 600

Cell of course powers up just a bit more, calling it "going all out, in speed at least) in order to be able to handle Gohan, putting him comfortably at around 615. He proceeds to dominate Gohan in hopes of making him angry. Creates seven Cell Juniors.

Cell Junior:

Power: 375 Speed: 375

Vegeta FPSSj:

Power: 375 Speed: 375

Trunks FPSSj

Power: 365 Speed: 365

I'm putting Vegeta at 70% Goku here. His stubbornness and pride made his training so inefficient that he got only so far in 2 years in RoSaT. Trunks suffered also, due to the lack of a sparring partner. Obviously, this is still way more efficient than what USSj Trunks showed.

Ok, Gohan gets driven over the edge, transforms into a Super Saiyan 2. I'll withhold giving his power figure for yet a while. He proceeds to execute all the Cell Juniors, then lay an effortless beating on Cell. Cell powers up to maximum. Finally. He had bluffed his true power three times before he finally did it.

FP Perfect Cell:

Power: 1200 Speed: 1200 (I'm assuming a 2x would be a good figure to use. The Z-fighters thought his power was unfathomable and even thought Gohan was done for).

But guess what, not this time. Gohan takes a punch from FP Cell to the face and barely flinches. He's that much stronger. Two blows and Cell lies beaten. In frustration, Cell powers up to his Power Weighted form. He gets ridiculously buff and huge, so I don't think he got any faster at all, perhaps even slower.

Power Weighted FP Perfect Cell:

Power: 1800 Speed: 1200

But increasing only your brute strength does you no good against a fighter that is both faster and stronger. Because he'll still be faster. But Gohan proved to not only be faster, but stronger still. He totally mauled a buffed up Full Power Perfect Cell with one blow to the stomach, and made him regurgitate Android 18. So hard he kicked him. Therefore:

SSj2 Gohan

Power: 3000 Speed: 3000

That's a 5x increase from his FPSSj self, which I feel works pretty well, all things considered. Now keep in mind that all the power differences I showed could as well be smaller, because as Vegeta showed with Cui, a 1,25x power increase is enough to totally kill somebody. We still do need a room for the power-up that made Cell "Super Perfect", though. And that was said to be quite an amount.

So, to summarize:

- SSj2 is a whole another dimension of power than USSj, at the same base powerlevel.

- USSj is not even stronger than a FP-SSj. In fact, FP-SSj Goku was stronger than USSj Trunks. Trunks himself was also stronger as a regular Super Saiyan after his 2nd visit to RoSaT than he was as a USSj after his first. We have to factor in the power differences between base powers of the fighters, but assuming two were equal, a USSj would barely equal the power of the FP-SSj.

I hope you agree. If you do not, please feel free to discuss and point out the flaws in my logic. I'll be happy to show you manga pages in support of my statements. Xfing (talk) 17:15, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

I can't speak for the manga much other than what others have addressed (since I haven't read it), but didn't the anime have Cell reacting with some degree of fear when Future Trunks first transformed into the USSJ form (I don't know if that was also in the manga or if that was anime filler)? I think the only other time Perfect Cell reacted that way regarding a Super Saiyan transformation first being openly accessed was when Gohan became a Super Saiyan 2, and it was pretty obvious in that instance that Perfect Cell was way out of his league by that time. Besides, if it was more powerful, why didn't Trunks mention the power output instead of simply mentioning its speed increase when Gohan became a SSJ2? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:31, January 21, 2014 (UTC)

SSJ2 is stronger, watch the Cell Saga. And Goku as a FPSSJ or MSSJ which ever you call it. Would have the stamina of base Goku, the speed of ascended SSJ, and the power of ultraSSJ. It is a full power form. The perfected form, no energy or speed decrease. Ultimatessj1 (talk) 23:04, February 21, 2014 (UTC)UltimateSSJ1

You could really argue it either way. But its a hard agrue againts SSJ2.

In the show, it is clear that the levels have variation in them. For example, SSJ2 Goku surpases SSJ2 Gohan in the Buu arch. How can that be if they are both SSJ2? Because the SSJ levels have variation in power within each grouping.

So a lot of this is left up to the viewer to rank the powers for themselves. 

Anyway, Vegeta and Trunks were dumbfounded by Gokus eneregy when he went Mastered SSJ1. That is his KI, not his speed. His Ki.

So its safe to assume SSj2 is fairly above anything the other characters had at the time. To be honest, a SSJ3 & SSJ2 are closer in power then SSJ2 and SSJ1.  

Still a lot of it depends on your own rankings. You could very well argue that they are the same, minus the speed, based on what was expressed when Gohan first turned. But a SSJ2 that is in anyway expereienced is beyond a USSJ. (SSJ2 Vegeta in the Buu arch for example).


However, after Battle of Gods I guess Gokus SSJ1 kind of resets the whole scale as its now stronger then the other characters 2s.

Same form, just flawed.[]

Both forms are the same ascension.  SSJ is a transformation, while SSJ2 and 3 are simply power ups from the original Super Saiyan form.  The comparison between Trunks and Gohan to argue which is stronger is completely invalid as that is arguing the strength of the individuals and not the forms.  It is cleary explained and defined through the dialouge that USSJ is an imperfect attempt to ascend to the same level Gohan hits which they pin as SSJ2.  Unfortunately with all of the different acronyms people don't understand how Super Saiyan works and it becomes confused.  So basically put USSJ and SSJ2 as forms themselves both share the same potential for greater physical strength than the normal SSJ transformation.  The difference is how someone powers up from SSJ.  In Trunks case he greatly increased his power but could not retain speed, however he clearly reached the level of SSJ2.  The form is visually the same, and is acknowledged by the characters as SSJ2 tier in power.  As other have quoted, Trunks refers to Gohan going SSJ2 that it had been done right to retain speed.  On the fights and hits Trunks took vs Gohan, Gohan had a major advantage in training and if he had learned how to become USSJ he would have the same issue with speed however he would have surpassed Trunks in the same form.  Comparing the two fighters doesn't concern their transformations but their strength as in all the SS forms different fighters can reach the same form and still have different power levels.  

Ultra SSJ = SSJ2 in Brute Strength[]

I believe in a strength comparison these 2 forms are equal. If USSJ and SSJ2 arm wrestled (where speed was not a factor) they would both be in an epic battle. There are plenty of instances where the characters in the show during the Cell saga hint to that fact. Cell himself tells USSJ Trunks that he had surpassed him in brute strength. Before he says this though they spar it out and Trunks appeared to have the advantage. After taking a pretty heavy blow, is when Cell says this to Trunks. Cell even says he will now show Trunks his FULL power as well after this. Despite those who say he had been suppressing it, and this is when he uses his superior speed to beat Trunks. He later admits though, that he actually doesn't even need his full power to beat Trunks in that form and began to toy with him. Those of you who keep comparing the "strength" between the two forms based on the way Trunks was only able to take a few punches from Cell while Gohan seemed to take them easy are just wrong. That is Endurance not Strength. Trunks was taking hits due to his lack of speed, and the whole time he was complaining in his head about not being able to hit Cell not how much pain he was in. Yes, He seemed to take little by little damage when Cell hit him, but there have been multiple occurances throughtout DBZ where weaker guys catch the strong one by surprise and actually manage to hurt them a little. This is what was happening to Trunks. I literally just finished watching this fight between Trunks and Cell and Trunks didn't appear to be bleeding or suffering from any damage to his armor and body. Cell was strong enough that he could still hurt Trunks when he hit him, and since Trunks lacked the speed to see Cell coming, He was being caught off guard everytime Cell hit him. If Trunks had the speed to see Cell coming he would of easily been able to block Cells hits with his superior energy, but this simple fact of lack of speed made it so he could not. Trunks was not getting devastedly hurt everytime Cell hit him either. After he realized his stupidity for not considering the speed disadvantage, he powered down on his own will and accepted defeat. He did NOT even appear out of breath or have a scratch on his face after the ordeal, but he was completely aware he would eventually lose. Cell would of kept chipping away, eventually draining Trunks of his power, and would basically wear him down. Once Trunks would get worn down enough. He would eventually not be able to sustain the energy to keep taking hits from Cell, and at that point Cell would start dishing real damage to Trunks and ultimately beat him. Also, Goku powers up to the form USSJ and Gohan was amazed, but even Goku admitted he would not be fast enough despite his incredible power. Piccolo and Tien while sensing the fight from Kami's lookout said multiple times how Trunks' power was incredible and were shocked when he lost. SSJ2 was superior in the fact that it retained the strength of the USSJ but didn't sacrifice for the speed. Trunks even says something along this line when Gohan attains the SSJ2 form Remarking to the fact that "HE DID IT! He figured out how to keep the strength while not losing speed!" That is not the exact quote, but I know I remember him saying something along this line. The reason SSJ2 Gohan didn't seem to be getting harmed by Cells hits was not because he was FAR STRONGER it was because he had the speed to see Cell's hits coming, and therefore could throw his defenses up in time to deflect Cell's incoming hits. Something Trunks would have been able to do also if he was of equal speed. Next, when Trunks would hit Cell, Trunks would have the power to send Cell flying but since he saw these attacks comming he could likely set up enough defense in time to not weather so much damage from it. In Gohans case however, Cell was now Trunks and Gohan was Cell in the same roles. Gohan was able to use his superior speed to use that superior strength to dish damaging blows to a Cell, who was unable to track the attacks coming at him from Gohan. Which is another reason why Gohan's punches appeared to cause so much more damage than Trunks' did despite the equal strength. There is also the fact that USSJ was much more unstable in comparison to the SSJ2 which is why it appeared sloppy in nature where as the SSJ2 was sleak and graceful. SSJ2 was not only far faster but also was able to hold a better focus of the strength of power which is why Gohan was also able to match Cell's Kamahamaha wave at the end of the saga. Remember, that Vegeta in his acended form was able to rip Cell's arm off with his Final Flash attack and he even showed that he had great power when he delivered the cripple shot to Cell which ultimately allowed Gohan to finish Cell with his blast. It is clear they all attained GREAT power but aside from Gohan who finally hit the SSJ2 form NONE of them including Goku were able to figure out how to balance that strength without sacrificing the speed. Goku took the first step in the right direction by having him and Gohan sustain SSJ at all times to make it seem like their normal form or what some people refer to as MSSJ or Mastered SSJ. Only then would they be able to attain that strength increase without losing their speed. In order to reach SSJ2 you have to be completely one with SSJ. By simply powering up you bulk up too much and hit USSJ. Which in my OPINION was SSJ2, but it just wasn't a fully focused version of it or a better way to put it is that it was an unstable version of it. Hope you all like my logic I don't expect people to jump on my band wagon, but I believe myself to be a rather deep DBZ fan. From watching the Cell saga numerous times in my years. This is what I believe. 

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