This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ascended Super Saiyan article.
ASCENDED SUPER SAIYAN
Vegeta and Trunks don't use this form during the Cell Game and versus Borjack, they are just Super Saiyan. Ascended Super Saiyan is used versus Semi-Perfect Cell/Perfect Cell from Vegeta and Trunks and in the OAV Broly: The Legendary Super Saiyan.
That's true (well, except for maybe for the Vegeta vs. Bojack battle, since his saiyan armor stretches to accomidate a new form.), I mean, in "Broly, the Legendary Super Saiyan", Trunks obviously went Ascended Super Saiyan (as he was the only one out of the Super Saiyans that fought Broly in Round 1 that had his jacket torn apart as he transformed, and he didn't tear apart his jacket when he transformed into an SSJ both during the battle with Tien and his fight against Kogu.)
Merging of ASSj and USSj Edit
- Why? Both are two completely different transformations, unlike the SSj and FPSSj which both are the same. --Neos 10:22, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
- The Daizenshuu is right. They're both simple variants of the first stage, not actual transformations. What I meant in my previous reply was the fact they're completely different from themselves; the 2nd Grade is not the same as the 3rd Grade. They do not relate to each other but they both relate to Super Saiyan, i.e. both are offshoots of the original Super Saiyan. Unlike Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 which are completely new transformations by themselves, who don't relate to either eachother or Super Saiyan. --Neos 10:18, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think you understand. It states that they aren't different from themselves at all. They are indeed a variation of Super Saiyan, but are not necessarily a variation of each other. They are one and the same and only differentiated by the names Sūpā Saiya-jin dai ni-dankai and Sûpâ Saiya-jin dai san-dankai (Super Saiyan 1 Stage 2 and Super Saiyan 1 Stage 3) to catalogue the only change between the two, the further increment of muscle mass to the point where agility is lost.-- bulletproof 03:43, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- Oh yeah. I checked. It does say that: "just varying levels of the same exact thing." Hmm... I guess you're right. It should be merged, under the heading 'Super Saiyan Variants' or something like that. --Neos 12:34, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- Eh?! Are there two Storms out there? Because the first one seemed to have remained neutral on my idea of merging SSj and FPSSj. This one's positive. Chemistry, anyone?
- Anyways, I don't think A/USSj should be merged with SSj. Full-Power/Mastered Super Saiyan is not even an actual transformation; it's simply an advancement of an earlier form. While the Ultra Super Saiyan levels are as Goku puts it in the original Japanese dialogue, "ichi-dankai no henshin" ("transformations of the first stage").
- So, I think that FPSSJ and SSj should be merged into one article: Super Saiyan, while ASSj and USSj should be under a different article called Stages of Super Saiyan, or something of the sort. --Neos 17:22, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well I was neutral on the topic, but if a merge is actually going to happen then I figure it wouldn't hurt to give my opinion. Wouldn't it be easier to just have a "Stages of Super Saiyan" section in the Super Saiyan article, detailing the different sub-stages? I've made a quick layout of what I mean at the wiki's Sandbox so it can be seen in action. Storm 18:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It's just a suggestion, but seeing practically applied, I think it could be an appropriate solution. Storm 20:00, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with Sk. And I made a few headline changes at the Sandbox. I think it looks better that way and is a bit more readable. Anyone agrees? --Neos 20:07, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't much care whether the article's are merged or not, but I'm not sure whether bulletproof meant this as a serious suggestion or not. (His first post that appears on this page is sort of taken out of context, as it was a response to a completely different conversation on Talk:Full-Power Super Saiyan.) Anyway, if it's what everybody wants that's fine, I just wanted to mention that, as I got mixed signals from the whole thing. -- 07:34, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- The stages as they stand disambiguated right now in separate articles doesn't bother me (like I said on the FPSS talk page, anyone who sees the terms and has further questions can just consult the articles, where their leads pretty much sum it up). I just think that if the community is actually going to consider a move/merge, I'd like to throw in my two cents. The merged sandbox version doesn't look half bad though, but if consensus is at all satisfied with keeping the advanced SS state articles disambiguated, it won't weigh on my conscience. Storm 08:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- Okay. This is getting too confusing. I'm throwing in the white towel. BTW, weren't these articles all merged together during the start of the Wikia as well? --Neos 08:24, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah, the very first versions of the article were taken directly from Wikipedia, and detailed the entire Super Saiyan mythos (FSS, SS, ASS, USS, FPSS, SS2, SS3, SS4) excluding Golden Great Apes. Then sometime after everything got disambiguated. Storm 08:30, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
So what is to done to the articlesSk 08:50, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have no idea. In the meantime I've reworked the articles for Super Saiyan, its Ascended and Ultra stages, and the full-power state to reflect the rewrites in the sandbox version. Now it really just depends if consensus prefers the four be merged. Storm 09:06, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
false super saiyan 2Edit
would'nt this be a false super saiyan 2.because in the anime trunks states "he did it right!he increased his strength without losing speed!" so that means that this a false transformation isnt it?another hint is that trunks says before that "i just jumped in to early!i just kept plowing forward like a stupid child".i think there are alot of hints here.
Actually Ascended Super Saiyan is the samething as SSJ2 Edit
The article about Ascended Super Saiyan is wrong. I even made a video about this on youtube. Everybody will see what I mean when watched it...
Link of the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gh_jtWEq2MY&fmt=18
- No the article is correct. Super Saiyan 2 is a much more powerful transformation, this must be a mistake in the dubbing 13:34, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
No there is no mistake in the dubbing cause I watched the both episodes in the ocean dubbed version also which is owned and licensed by Funimation Entertainment.
everyone knows there is a HUGE difference between ascended super saiyan and super saiyan 2. there is really no reason for dis dispute. TheDarkPrinceReturns! 20:34, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
- It is most certainly a dubbing mistake. The japanese version he says the line slightly differently, and in japanese that takes longer. So to make up the time, they put in the second part of it which calls it an assended super saiyan as well. Saying that this is true and not a mistake is just like saying that Bardock created the Power Ball like Vegeta mistakenly said he did in the Ocean dub. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 20:38, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
The Super Saiyan 2 and Ascended Super Saiyan forms are not the same. There are obvious differences:
- SSJ2 has the electrical aura while ASSJ has a blazing aura.
- SSJ2 is much more powerful than ASSJ, seeing as the SSJ2 form attained by Gohan easily dominated Perfect Cell, who was more powerful than the ASSJ form used by Vegeta.
- ASSJ has a more heavy increase in muscle mass than SSJ2's muscle mass.
Along with these differences, I agree there is a dubbing mistake in English as Goku said "Ascended Super Saiyan" when he really meant the Super Saiyan 2 form. I haven't really watched the series in Japanese because I like it better in English, so I can't be sure about the dubbing of Goku's mentionings of the Ascended Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 forms in Japanese.
- I'd also like to point out that one of the "legitamizing" reasons given in that video is "According to Goku (Who is the first super saiyan)". First - Goku is not the first Super Saiyan, though he is the first SEEN. Second - When did Goku ever know anything about how Saiyans worked at all? He only knew about Super Saiyans because Vegeta kept talking about them and wouldn't have figured out that there were actual transformations beyond it without the help of Future Trunks, Vegeta, and Gohan. So Goku is a terrible resource for information on Saiyans. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 21:29, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
Haha that's so true xD22:14, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
Well must say that in the anime trunks says "He is ascended!" looking at vegeta while he powers up against cell. But he didn't say "he became an Ascended Super Saiyan" he just said that he is ascended. Also when first goku went beyond the Super Saiyan Gohan said " You ascended to the next level" he also didn't mention clearly that he became an Ascended Super Saiyan. My Believes they are Ultra Super Saiyans but not Ascended Super Saiyans... Also While in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber Goku shows the levels beyond the Super Saiyan to Gohan. He Ascends to Ultra Super Saiyan like Trunks did and then tells Gohan that he cannot beat cell in that form. He only pushes his limits a little further and goes to a point which is weaker and faster form of Ultra Super Saiyan (Which you guys call Ascended Super Saiyan) Vegeta gone to that very same point like Goku did and couldn't beat Cell. Trunks had his chance and he pushed himself further to a point which is called as Ultra Super Saiyan that gave him disadvantage fighting cell because of his muscles. So Vegeta and Goku pushed themselves to a point that they can increase their power and keep their speed. I would call this Descended Ultra Super Saiyan. As Goku Says in the anime, Ascended Super Saiyan is the samething as Super Saiyan 2. Also Goku maybe a terrible resource about Saiyans. But this thing is not about how Saiyans lived etc. He was the first seen super saiyan and he was the first one to achive this state. Vegeta kept talking about Saiyans yes but he couldn't even imagine if there was level beyond the Super Saiyan 2 and he surprised and cried like a baby when Goku turned into a Super Saiyan 3. Goku even pushed himself to SSJ4. His trainings on his Super Saiyan form are far more intense than other dragonball characters (He achive his Super Saiyan 3 form in these intense trainings in the other world) Vegeta realized how intense Goku trained when he killed Yakon (Babidi's servent fighter) So according to the anime Goku has the best knowlegde about Super Saiyans...
SSJ2 is much more powerful than ASSJ, seeing as the SSJ2 form attained by Gohan easily dominated Perfect Cell, who was more powerful than the ASSJ form used by Vegeta.
While technically correct, I should note that Vegeta himself said that the ASSj transformation triples the power of a Super Saiyan, which would mean that, technically, ASSj is stronger than SSj2 (As SSj2 is twice the power of a Super Saiyan, and ASSj is approximately three times that of a Super Saiyan.). Weedle McHairybug 03:01, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I don't recall it ever being said that SS2 doubled the power of a Super Saiyan. Vegeta did in fact say that his power was tri-fold as an ASS (I can't believe I haven't actually made that pun before...), but that didn't necessarily mean overall power. His muscles bulged a lot more than SS2, so it's possible that he was stronger, but with FAR less Ki power and control. Just like when Goku hit Recoome with his elbow, Vegeta notices not how hard the hit was, but the Ki that was put into it that really made it more powerful. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 03:17, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
- The part about SSj2 being twice the strength of a Super Saiyan was stated in the Super Exciting Guide. The same guide also explained that Super Saiyan 3 was four times that of a Super Saiyan 2, and by extension, eight times the strength of a Super Saiyan. Weedle McHairybug 03:26, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
Which means SSJ2 and ASSJ are the samething...
- Which part of that says that they are the same thing? 19:57, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
I guess you didin't even bother to read the topic man...
- Clearly I did. You misunderstood me. You said that SSJ2 and ASSJ are the same thing, I then said which part of any of this discussion said that any of us agreed with you that they are the same thing, or where did any of us state that it was the same thing. The fact of the matter is, it was a dub mistake. All of us are in agreement, except from you. We are also in agreement that ASSJ increases overall strength and is stronger than a SSJ2, however, Super Saiyan 2 is more powerful (combination of strength and speed) also having a far increased Ki power also. Incase you "didn't read the topic" then that's is what we have been discussing 13:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
First of all i created this topic. I didn't say u all agreed on this, i told my opinion and i don't know why u took it so personally.
- Okay, I think the discussion has gotten a little out of hand. The point of this section, as the post above this suggests, was to point out places where it was stated in the FUNimation dub that ASSJ was the same as SSJ2. However, the manga, official statements by Toriyama, and things like the Super Exciting Guide state that there is a difference between the two. ASSJ may have more strength, but not as much overall power because it doesn't have as much Ki, and a lot less speed. If that doesn't clear up the point, then please present another theory or discussion point. Let's not devolve into arguing though. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 18:32, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
You didn't state your opinion as you said that SSJ2 and ASSJ are the same thing, you didn't say I think that.... Secondly, the only reason I took it personally was because you said that I hadn't bothered to read the topic, when really you misunderstood me. That's all I have to say, and hope there is no bad feeling's between us, as when I posted I certainly never meant to create an argument or conflict, and if my posts came across as unfriendly, then I apologise, it was not intended22:16, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
Another thing to remember in all this is that while we have official sources and documentation to cite, characters like Goku do not. He is basically naming these levels on the go as he and the gang attain them, and could easily misspeak, get confused, or just decide to call a form by another name for any reason. The important thing is for us to be consistent with our own nomenclature, which the site currently is. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:22, April 8, 2010 (UTC)
- They are not the same thing in the anime, if you are unclear, then read the rest of this discussion, the majority of us agree that it is a mistake in the dubbing. Thanks 16:56, May 2, 2010 (UTC)
Guys. I cannot believe what I'm reading. How can you even suppose that Super Saiyan 2nd Grade can be as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan 2? Just because some guide said that Super Saiyan 2 is 2x as strong as Super Saiyan 1 doesn't mean nor prove anything. Even if that statement was valid, it still doesn't mean that SS grade 2 is any stronger than SS2, as SS2 was first attained by a Full-Power Super Saiyan with a power output similar to that of an Ultra Saiyan (it's called Full-Power for a reason, eh?). Still, much evidence suggests that SS2 is much, much more than twice as strong as Full-Power Super Saiyan, therefore even comparing it to the first branch stage of SS1 is silly.Xfing 15:15, December 30, 2010 (UTC) super saiyan 2 and ascend are the same its becuse gohan achevied full power super saiyan and when he ascended it was diffrent because achiving full power ssj must have changed the transformations muscle in to power thats why they look different but there the same
- Dude, you must not have read the whole discussion, or you misunderstood something. As SSj4 Lewich said, while Ascended SS (and Ultra SS) might be physically stronger than a SS2, SS2 is still more powerful overall because of combined speed, strength and Ki output. I thought this was rather obvious, I mean, look at how much trouble Vegeta and Trunks both had with Cell while in their Ascended and Ultra states (Trunks was too slow, and Vegeta's energy output tired him out), whereas SS2 Gohan completely dominated Cell. Side Note: I always thought that SS2 was more than twice a normal SS, but what do I know? Also, ASS and USS are just a forced increase of power and not actually another SS transformation. Because SS2 is in fact another transformation, it's Ki output doesn't overwhelm the user like Ascended and the user isn't bulked up enough to slow them down, like Ultra. This (obviously) makes SS2 far superior to anything before it. ZPRN 04:24, April 15, 2011 (UTC)
- assj and ssj2 r diffrent ssj2 is much stronger
Super Saiyan Levels Edit
I dont see why they can't all be listed under there individual levels like:
False super sayain
Mystic super sayian
As for the whole Ascended Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 being the same thing, i always thought that Super Saiyan 2 was a superior transformation. When Gohan fought Cell as a Super Saiyan 1 he was originally a Super Saiyan but then powered up to an Ascended Super Saiyan to fight cell. After android 16 was destroyed he unleashed his hidden powers and transformed to the level of Super Saiyan 2.
As the Ascended and Ultra Super Saiyan stages are just improved forms of the first stage it isn't necessary for them to be achieved before becoming a Super Saiyan 2, like where Goku shows Buu the 3 levels of Super Saiyans.
- Gohan never used the Ascended Super Saiyan form during the cell fight. Also Super Saiyan 2 is a much more powerful transformation. And they didn't know about the different forms, they just happened to transform into them 19:58, June 30, 2010 (UTC)
Super Saiyan increases the base strength of the warrior x50 Super Saiyan 2 increases the strength of the SSJ x2 Super Saiyan 3 increases the strength of SSJ2 x4
but then the SSJ Dai Ni Dankai/Ascended Super Saiyan and the SSJ Dai San Dankai/Ultra Super Saiyan as they increase the strength? 22.214.171.124 17:53, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
During the Cell Game, Vegeta and Trunks aren't Ascended Super Saiyan, they are Super Saiyan. 126.96.36.199 17:53, February 5, 2011 (UTC)
For the one who stated the Super Saiyan levels Mystic Super Saiyan is not a canon form if I am correct and you forgot Legendary Super Saiyan.
Color of Bio-electricity Edit
The Color of BIo-electricity in this form is yellow unlike SS2 whose bio-electricity color is blue......
Look look all Strength and Power level are same in USSJ and SSJ2.. but in SSJ2 speed increases dramatically thats why Cell could beat Trunks because trunks was too slow... and Gohan due to his incredible speed bought cell to his toes....
188.8.131.52 16:32, June 22, 2011 (UTC)
The truth behind ASSJ and SSJ2 Edit
To summarie this the truth about the ASSJ.
The ASSJ is indeed the next level beyond Super Saiyan 1. But it is not the completed. When Goku was training Gohan in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, Goku went ASSJ while Vegeta and Trunks were fighting Cell when he reched perfection. Gohan clearly stated that his father was powerful and that he could definitely defeat Cell. Goku then stated that he reach the next level but the transformation was complete. He said it did come with a buff body that also slowed him down. His transformation was not complete. At the same time trunks was fighting Cell and trunks was slowing down. Then Cell showed trunks that he could get ascend to but it would just slow his speed down. Therefore he was only ascended making him ASSJ. When he was able to develop the speed for it then he would have reached SSJ2. Gohan was able to do it because he had a special power inside that increased his energy everytime he got angry which gave him that boost. Also when going Super Saiyan 2 lightning appears around the body. 184.108.40.206 07:17, February 3, 2012 (UTC)MikeBanks
- Nope. ASSJ is an extended form of the regular SS1 - it's what happens when you power up over what your body can normally tolerate. You have bigger power, but also bigger musculature. USSJ is a further extension of this process, giving even more power, but without maintaining the proportion in speed. These forms are SS1 alright - plus when you master your SS1 they cease to exist, because you can power up without the adverse effects (and this is the Full Power Super Saiyan). SS2 is another stage of the form and much, much more powerful. —This unsigned comment was made by Xfing (talk • contribs) .
Manga or Anime? Edit
Hello, sorry if I am a bit unprofessional with the posting, but I am new to this wikia and I actually don't have allot of experience with posting, so please don't be to harsh when it comes to the technical formats of my posts.
First of all I want to clear something up. I would like to know does this wiki strictly refer to the Anime or is the manga included? For if the manga is included I find that there are some issues and possible confusion with the different types of super saiyans. So before I go and explain my view and research results, If someone would be so kind to inform me if this wikia or at least topic includes the manga or not that would be great because I would be referring to the manga. Thank you—This unsigned comment was made by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs) .
- Everything official is included. 22:17, June 27, 2012 (UTC)
- Dude, that's a badly worded question. Manga takes precedence over anything else, it's the highest canon. Xfing (talk) 22:21, September 28, 2012 (UTC)
When did Goku use AASJ? Edit
There is one thing I'd like to know. When did Goku use Ascended Super Saiyan form?
18.104.22.168 12:42, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
He never used the Ascended Super Saiyan Form. He just achieved it.
Then why is his name in the Users list? I am removing it. Both from this page and USSJ page.
22.214.171.124 12:00, February 21, 2013 (UTC)
Some speculation/theorycrafting about the effects on speed. Edit
Hey guys, today I got something of an epiphany. I do not insist, by any means, that what I'm about to write here is to be included anywhere, but I think I found quite a simple yet efficient way to measure the effects of the ASSj and USSj forms on the speed. (I couldn't think of a better place to post it, alright) First, let's remember gravity training. 2x gravity makes you twice as heavy, and therefore makes it twice as hard for you to move around. The Ascended forms work the same way. They increase your powerlevel (power and speed), but the speed is lost because the weight of the body is increased.
It is hard to assume exactly what change in weight the forms bring about. Let's take Vegeta for example.
In Super Saiyan, his power will be 10 and his speed will be 10. His weight will be 60 kgs. When he goes Ascended, he'll get a boost (let's say 1,5x). So his power will be 15, but his weight will increase as well. Now Vegeta's speed will depend on by how much his weight will increase. If his mass increases by 20% (so from 60 kgs to 72 kgs), the 20% will have to be deducted from his speed. So instead of 1,5x, his speed will rise 80% of 1,5x = 1,2x. So his speed will be 12. If we assume that the muscles gotten in this form are so heavy they constitute 33% of Vegeta's normal weight, his speed boost will be 66%*1,5x = 1. That means his speed won't change at all.
If Vegeta turned Ultra, he would get another power AND speed boost, say 2x compared to ASSj, which makes 3x compared to regular SSj. But his body weight increases, as the article says "to the point of impracticality". So let's say he grows 66% heavier than his normal self (which I think is not far-fetched), and his weight is now 100kg, from a measly 60. His power is now 30, and his speed would also be, but we have to consider that: 10*(3*(1-0,65) = 10,5. So barely any increase at all, despite a 3-fold increase in strength.
Obviously, somebody expecting to defeat somebody who is 20/20 could think of using 30 strength against him. But a warrior with 30 strength would also normally want to be 30 in speed, or else the 20/20 enemy will simply run circles around him.
Now pardon me for being Captain Obvious if I was, but it struck me as perfectly logical that the whole thing is dependent on how much the mass of the Saiyan increases in percentage. Please discuss ^^ Xfing (talk) 02:03, March 22, 2013 (UTC)