This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Bardock article.
Bardock a Super Saiyan?
Was bardock close to becoming Super Saiyan while fighting frieza in space? Since bardock had a power level close to 10,000 when facing frieza what did that mean? How come bardock did not go super saiyan to kill frieza after he throw his jolt Raiven attack to him? Do you think bardock was strong enough to be a super saiyan.
- Like I explained to you earlier, Toriyama hadn't created the Super Saiyan transformation by the time Toei Animation produced Bardock: The Father of Goku, and even more simply put, the plots written by Toei's writers clearly just didn't call for Bardock, etc to be featured as Super Saiyans. In Bardock's case it's better this way anyways. The idea was to emphasize the helplessness of the Saiyan race, and especially Bardock who knew of their doom but could do nothing to change it; not to demythologize the legend of the Super Saiyan right then and there. That was the idea of Frieza's downfall on Namek. Storm talk – projects 17:36, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I have my own views about why Bardock wasn't a Super Saiyan. There is the obvious fact that the storyline didn't call for that to happen. The plot wouldn't have been the same with a Super Saiyan there. My main reason is that Bardock only had a power level of 10,00o which meant that he was stronger than Goku during the Saiyan saga. That fact tells me that since Goku's power level was around 9,000 during the Saiyan saga that Bardock with his power level being only 10,000 he was no where close to turning into a Super Saiyan. Plus I heard that Frieza's power level was around 1,000,000 and he was beaten badly by Super Saiyan Goku so I just say that Bardock was not powerful enough to become a Super Saiyan. If anyone disagrees please tell me so we can have a rather insightful conversation. Imortality is a curse. 17:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to get really into analysis of power levels: Bardock died with a power level of 10,000 more or less (it was never approximated to 10,000), while when Goku ascended to Super Saiyan for the first time, his power level was 150,000,000. I don't get where all these random and totally unfounded "Bardock was the first Super Saiyan" claims are coming from in the first place. Storm talk – projects 17:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- That theory probably came from the fact that Frieza was paranoid of the Saiyans growing power and he destroyed them with Bardock being a rather powerful Saiyan who stood against him. It is rather obvious that Bardock was nowhere near tha level of power and it is always nice to have someone agree with you. Imortality is a curse. 19:08, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
um but if you remember its not based on goku power level when he became super saiyan its based on the max level of power that saiyan thereself can get without abtainig super saiyan but no he is not an super saiyan--XIII-DARKNESS 23:04, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
if bardock was still alive he would go up to super sayin 3
you dont have to be strong to turn super saiyan its awaken by rage184.108.40.206 19:18, July 5, 2010 (UTC)Bardock's scars
listen bardock did go super saiyan in the special episode called the episode of bardock if you dont believe me go to http://www.dbz.tv/ and watch it yourself bardock is the one who started the whole super saiyan legend because he was the first one to discover it. You have to go to movies and scroll to the bottom it should be there
Bardock did turn super saiyan, thats where the legend began. You see when freiza blew planet vegita up bardock somehow went back in time and fought agaisnt freiza's ancestor Lord Chilled. Bardock turned super saiyan and beat him in a battle. Before Chilled died he told his family to beware of the monster that can turn blonde- a saiyan. If you don't believe me go to Youtube and type Bardock turns super saiyan or just go to dbz.tv it is a true episode (www.dbz.tv/watch/dragonball-episode-of-bardock-special/). Also Goku's power level was not 9,000 when he first fought vegita he had a power level of 24,000. Most of you guys don't even know what your talking about... 220.127.116.11 05:41, January 24, 2012 (UTC)
LMAO you guys are fools..the epidsode when bardock turns SS was not a real episode to coincide with the plot..that was just a random extra episode they made for fun, basically an alternate ending..bardock dies in the first and genuwine plot..thats how it is known as being all throughout dbz and gt.
Hey, all of you are missing some key details: (1) Saiyans ALWAYS get stronger after they recover from defeat meaing that if he was 10,000 against Frieza, there is no way he was 10,000 against Chilled. (2) No one said that an extremely high power level was absolutely necessary to transform, only digging deep into anger. (3) Since there was SO much left out, we have no idea what happened to Bardock that put him in the past in the first place as though to leave it open to some speculation in order to make people want more. (4) (This is a big one) The medicine that Ipana used to help heal Bardock was the same stuff in the recuperation chambers which is/was known to greatly accelerate the healing process and increase levels. (18.104.22.168 13:52, May 31, 2012 (UTC))
In all the DB Fighting games, everyone has a different moveset (of course, but thats not my point). But with Bardock, even though the movesets are different; his seems to put a lot of emphasis on a sort of angular karate fighting style. I don't remember the name but has anyone else noticed because I believe this is worth noting down atleast in the trivia. I do believe Bardock has a certain karate style (or if I've missed the mark, Kung Fu)
Well if you notice bardock's fighting style is much like kakarot's. I believe bardock's uses a variety of diffrent martial arts. I can't remmber exactly though, sorry. (Osu~)
Should Bardock be considered a former villian, considering he used to slaughter innocent people,but changed his ways later on.Elementite 16:14, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
No. It is just like Vegeta in the Namek Saga, he is against Frieza but he is still a bad guy! Vegerot 16:18, 17 May 2009 (UTC) !
But he did try to save the saiyan race, that has to count for somethingElementite 16:19, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
He is still evil Maybe if he survived and came to Earth than maybe he would have become a good guy! Vegerot 16:28, 17 May 2009 (UTC) !
I'm pretty sure Vegeta killed more people than him, and he became a good guy.--Elementite 16:29, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
But he had time Bardock lived a bad guy and died one. Think about if Vegeta wasnt brought back to life in the Frieza SAga then he would have lived a bad guy and died A bad guy! Vegerot 16:38, 17 May 2009 (UTC)!!
He was sent to hell in the Buu Saga, that means he was still evil.Elementite 16:52, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
You mean "He was seen to hell in the Buu Saga, that means he was still evil"
- Err... WAS Vegeta sent to hell during the Buu saga? The only thing they actually implied in that scene was that Vegeta would most likely lose his body as soon as he died (even then, it doesn't necessarily mean that he went to Hell. Take Chi-Chi, Bulma, Videl and Dabura in the Fusion Saga. They didn't keep their bodies, yet they were in Heaven (though, by catholic traditions, it would be more similar to Purgatory, but still...), and besides which, considering how Piccolo not only kept his body upon death, but also went to train with King Kai, DESPITE having committed evil acts (or attempted to commit evil acts) during his life prior to death, whose to say that Vegeta, or heck, Bardock even, would be sent to hell?
I say Bardock is a Good Guy. I mean he felt genuine sorrow when his friend died and anyway he did try to stop Freiza in the end. So I say it makes him Good.--Ice Kitsune 02:19, November 26, 2009 (UTC)
If he is good he would have been wished back when they wished all of the people Freiza killed where alive right?
Dude Bardock is so a former villain he changed his ways in the end he tried to kill freiza to save his planet to change the fate of evreyone so Bardock is a hero and went to heaven
He just became a good guy right before he died and i guess they didn't count it
I would say up to the point where the Kanassan power to see the future was given to Bardock, he was just as ruthless and evil as most other villians. After receiving this power, Bardock frantically tried to save the lives of his race, taking vengance on Friezas henchmen after killing his team mates and even standing up against Frieza himself. So I would say he died a good guy. PS. in BT3 he is shown as a good guy. Force9 11:47, June 8, 2010 (UTC) Force9
- Have you considered that the race in question was a very evil one whose occupation as a whole was wiping out the population of weaker species? I'm not saying Frieza was a good guy by wiping them out, but saving oneself and his fellow evil aliens hardly makes one a hero. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 12:21, June 8, 2010 (UTC)
that surely could be the case, but i firmly belief that if he had defeated Frieza, he would have been the new ruler of the Saiyan race, until Vegetas return of course. Non the less I am sure that he would have altered his ways to become or be a defender of good. Along with this if your statement is true, Goku should also be evil, barring the fact that he bumped his head while he was a small boy. Basically within DBZ there is a few occurrences where evil characters changed their ways, Piccolo, Vegeta, etc are all examples of this. Force9 12:30, June 8, 2010 (UTC) Force9
- Everyone always assumes saiyans are evil because they destroy weaker races. Hm....here is the thing... FRIEZA makes them. It's not right to just say they are evil because they are being forced. Even though the saiyans joined [The World Trade Organization] for the reason to fight it doesn't make them evil. Bardock was doing his job, like everyone else does. Evil is like Vegeta who killed his injuries comrade. Bardock (in my opinion) was never a "evil" character. Neither do I think any saiyan was during that time period. Osu 1:32 eastern central June 8, 2010
I agree, Bardock did as he was told. Frieza ruled the saiyans with fear. even Vegeta knew that the power of Frieza is to big to take on which created a feeling of fear. In the Frieza saga this is also evident in Vegetas behaviour to the different form of Frieza. Force9 04:22, June 9, 2010 (UTC) Force9
- It could be the case that Saiyans are innately good, but on the other hand they do all seem to rather enjoy killing innocents at nearly every shown scene of them doing so, barring serious head injuries of course : P In any case, it's a matter of opinion, so we choose not to classify Bardock either way, and rather to state the facts, and leave the opinions to each reader. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:37, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
- That is fair because both sides of the argument does stand its ground. Force9 04:56, June 9, 2010 (UTC) Force9
- Does Bardock appear in the Kid Buu Saga..
- okay the argument that even though bardock is fighting for his race it doesn't count because the saiyans were evil doesn't work, because in the version of the movie i watched right before he tried to kill freiza bardock said "this is for all the people you made us slaughter" or something along those lines. Invader777 22:25, December 4, 2010 (UTC)
Has anyone read the episodes of Bardock spin-off? Judgeing from what I've seen from the anime and reading the spin-off. I say Bardock started off as a villian even when he faced Frieza, but he became a good guy after he defeated Chilled. And in the videogames, he doesn't display the same level of hostillity an say Vegeta (scouter). Is he a former villian? Yes. StandAlone 12.03, March 23, 2012.
- This is a two year old dead topic, you should probably start a new one if you're looking for feedback. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:11, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
Bardock's power level is mentioned in several places as being estimated at 10,000 by scientists afeter healing. But I can't find this reference. There used to be an image reference in this article, but the actual link to the image is not working, probably because it was deleted. In the remastered English dub of the special, the scientists mention that he keeps on getting stronger and might surpass King Vegeta, but they never mention the "10,000" figure. Could someone tell me exactly where does this come from?Sega381 17:39, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
The image in the infobox has changed twice over the past week and a half. Leave it with this one. don't change it again --Silver Sinspawn 05:53, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
- It may be your opinion that this one is good, but it is up to the community at large to decide if it should be changed. -- .10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 06:26, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
could Bardock still be alive?
If Bardock was a good guy he would have been wished back when they wished everyone that Freiza killed where alive
- Not quite. Shenron explained that he only had the power to bring back those killed in the past year. Bardock and the rest of the saiyans were killed many years before. Also, that wish made no mention of good guys vs bad guys. It brought everyone killed by Frieza and his direct minions back. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 04:35, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
- but bardock did not die by frieza instead he was sent to the past 1000 years befour and he became the origanal super saiyan and starded the super saiyan myth and he transfourrmed into a super saiyan like goku but he still had a tail so he becomes the golden ape from vegetas story and if you dont belive me watch the episode of bardock
Could Goku meet Bardock in other world after he dies?
Could Goku meet Bardock in other world after he dies?
- Likely no, as Bardock would not be given his body back as Goku is. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 17:57, April 20, 2010 (UTC)
What about chi-chi, Bulma, and videl? they got the top of their bodies back.
- Yes, but they went to the other world equivalent of heaven. It is unclear whether all people that go to heaven get their bodies back, or that Bardock went to heaven at all. He wasn't nearly powerful enough to retain his body like Goku and the other Z Fighters did if he didn't go to heaven and was stuck in Hell. Then Goku would never meet him as he'd be just another ghost. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 02:48, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
He did do a good deed by trying to save his people so maybe he went to heaven.
- Yeah, it's possible, we just don't know. And then there's the fact that Goku never went to Heaven. He stayed in the "limbo" parts of Other World that includes the Kai planets and Snake Way. So unless he made another trip to Other World and went to Heaven for some reason, or Bardock retained his body in Hell and Goku went there to quell uprisings or something, they wouldn't meet. --==> DragonBall.Z GT Goku Talk Contributions. 03:44, April 21, 2010 (UTC)
it would be cool if they made a episode where they met
Where is it implied that you need to be powerful in order to retain your body in other world? Besides, Bardock was around 10,000, whereas the Z fighters were even less than that when they died. Logically he should be able to retain his body if that were the case.
you are right but bardock did not die all by frieza instead he was sent to the past 1000 years befour and he became the origanal super saiyan and starded the super saiyan myth and he transfourrmed into a super saiyan like goku but he still had a tail so he becomes the golden ape from vegetas story and if you dont belive me watch the episode of bardock
When bardock interacts with raditz as his partner in VS mode, he treats Raditz like Vegeta treats Trunks with an prideful and ruthless humor, that could go on your trivia.
10x Kamehameha, I know you are part of this places law enforcement, but do you actually check what is changed before you undo it? Bardock is the only member of his team with an unchanged name. I even provided a source. Bardock was Bardock, Selypa (Fasha) was Korn, Totapo (Borgos) was Jaga, Panbukin (Shugesh) was Pumbkin and Toma (Tora) was Tomah. Bardock being the only one without a single change, trivia needs to be right if it's to be included at all.The Devils Corpse 02:37, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
- Actually it was Burdock, and there's no need to insult others here. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:55, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry if you found that insulting, but it's not. It's a blunt and valid question, straight to the point. Yet once again you changed the trivia back to the wrong statement, and I can't for the life of me figure out why. Bardocks name has remained unchanged, while the others have seen some sort of alteration from their time at Nakatsuru Katsuyoshi's hands and into Toriyama Akira's. Bardocks name was not originally Burdock, it is an alternate transliteration of the name, thus the SAME name. Hence my alteration to the trivia is correct. I assume you'll find this next part insulting too, but I'm just being honest. It's no wonder this place gets such a bad wrap for having inaccurate information. When you try to add the right info, source and all, it gets replaced with the previous inaccuracies. That seems to do more harm than good.The Devils Corpse 03:18, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
- You seem to have been misinformed on several counts. It is indeed insulting to ask an admin of a wikia website if he "actually check(s) what is changed before you undo it." I ask you a second time not to insult any users on this site, now that you have been educated as to what that may entail. The reason I changed the trivia back is because the proper procedure when an edit is disputed is to revert the article to its original state, and discuss the issue on that article's talk page. As to the issue here, only the member's new names are shown in those sketches, which are obviously irrelevant. As to the site having a "bad wrap," that seems wholly unfounded, as we are the most comprehensive source of Dragon Ball information in the world, and each week our site is visited thousands of times (tracked electronically). -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:52, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
Not misinformed, I just treat you like a normal person. You may hold a slight amount of power on a wikia, but you are by no means more important than anyone else in the community, as that is what defines a site. Without the community the site would be an electronic paperweight, so to speak. As for the source I provided, you obviously didn't look over it thoroughly. The Son Goku Densetsu  clearly provides the original names given by Nakatsuru, while the Daizenshu 6  provides Toriyama's take on them. This base information as well the actual changes are even noted within the article if you would have read it, which I assume you didn't or this wouldn't have to be discussed. You're statement seems biased,let alone presumptuous. Do you actually monitor all other Dragon Ball information website's traffic? Do you check sites in alternate languages? Do you actually personally check all the other competition to determine if you actually contain more content, let alone correct content from the source material?
The fact that Freeza's name is still headlining the article with Funimation's corrupted version seems proof enough. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust someone else to give me my money from a teller at my bank, I want the cash right from the source.The Devils Corpse 04:26, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
- The Wiki is English, so the mods chose to use their Funimation renderings, since most of the people USING this site would mostly know the Funimation names. That last part was very unneeded, and doesn't help with your argument. I know Bardock's name was unchanged, but watching this fight, you're starting to fall into the "I'm tired, so I'm just going to start being a jerk" If you're going to keep arguing for what's right, then please stay respectable and don't add things to the end of your messages that really seems to put a bad cloud over whatever intelligent things you had to say. I do also suggest talking to other Mods like Nonotail or SSJGoku93 or PrinceZarbon about this as well. But again, don't expect everyone to know "Umigame" or "Jinzōningen" :) Supersaiyanbatman 04:32, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
But that's just it, Viz's manga should be the English source at the very least if using the site is English so lets use English names argument. The manga is the original work and should be the basis for all information, and only expand out from that when needed. You don't have to use the Romanji, as the words do have accurate translations. Umigame can easily be Sea Turtle (though its sort of a name and shouldn't be translated) and Jinzoningen can easily be Artificial Humans. The corruption of the latter with the term android implies that they are all mechanical based, while 8, 17, and 18 are clearly cyborgs with a human base. I know Jinzoningen CAN mean android, but its clearly not the correct choice in this case.The Devils Corpse 05:10, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
- The problem there, is that not EVERYONE reads the Manga. The Majority of people who have gone here have not read the manga, and have only seen the English Dub of the Anime. You're more likely to find more people who've seen the Anime dub than have read the Manga.
- THAT is why we use the Funimation Dub names, and not Viz's translation. It makes NO sense to use Viz when you're more likely to find more people who've seen the dub than read their translated Manga. Supersaiyanbatman 05:13, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the mediation, Supersaiyanbatman. The Devils Corpse, two things. First, if you want to edit on a website, it is integral to know that website's policies, which I observe you have not taken the time to do. Please read our Manual of Style, and you will gain insight into how things work here, including our policy on character names. After much thought, the community decided to title the articles according to the anime names, since this makes the pages easier to find for the vast majority of our readers. By reading an article, you'll notice that we do list the manga names as well. Second, you have posted links which do not work, making it impossible for me to read them at all, so try and reserve your side comments about thoroughness. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:18, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
- No problem. The links he posted were here and Here However, the thing that gets me is trusting Daizex blindly seems just as bad as trusting us blindly, so I don't really get where the argument with that is. Supersaiyanbatman 05:28, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
A good point indeed. Trusting the word of a few people you've never met and who don't care what you think over a large community with which you are a part certainly seems strange. But then again it's quite clear which I've found to be more reliable. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:56, July 1, 2010 (UTC)
Future Gohan is mentioned but Future Goku isn't? That's unfair. :V08:39, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
- I knowwwww but we had to do it, check out the Manual of Style. The problem was that, counting alternate future relatives, each character would have twice as many family connections. Our solution was to say each character gets their future self (if ever seen/mentioned) as well as any of Future Trunks, Future Bulma, and/or Future Gohan, because those three are the main characters of the alternate future timeline. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 08:45, August 11, 2010 (UTC)
Proof of Bardock being SSJ
Episode of Bardock own section
When the story get's updated, with new features and plot, should Episode of Bardock get it's own section on Bardock's page, and not just be in other appearances?
How old was Bardock when he died?
How old was Bardock when he died?My friend says he was about 800,and im not sure.I need a answer please.
impossible a saiyn can only live to be 300 or a little longer depending how they live they life also they start to get gray hair and old skin in the second century
Great Ape Bardock
The article currently states, "Bardock, like Elite Saiyan warriors, can remember everything in the transformation state and control it (stated by himself after the battle on Kanassa)."
We know that he can remember everything he does as a Great Ape, but can he actually control himself while he's a Great Ape? I haven't played any of the Budokai games, but I seem to recall reading, in an old version of this article that he loses sense of himself like any other low-level soldier. Can anyone confirm his Great Ape behavior?--Megatronacepticon 21:10, July 29, 2011 (UTC)
Date of Death: 737 Age
Concidering Goku was born in 737 Age, wouldn't that be when Bardock died? --KiumaruHamachi 14:32, October 17, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
New infobox picture
With the Episode of Bardock anime adaption, isn't it time to change the Bardock picture in a recenter one?Voting starts today! Chang picture/leave it as it is. The best choice is probably this one: I'll eat you!With my tail!Yum! 16:37, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Somehow, I feel like we should keep the existing one, as the animation is more from the original anime, and we haven't really updated any other pages to have the Kai-esque super beautiful animation. Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 19:13, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, true but this isn't Kai, and this is a more recent picture of him, technically after the Planet Vegeta incident. And on this photo he looks straight into the...camera? Well you know what i mean True SaiyanWarriors 19:23, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- Yah, current one is way better. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:38, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
- The new Manga Episode of Bardock is writen by Akira Toriyama. So is completely canon.
- So he shouldnt be listed as dead. As it was revealed in fact he did not die. (22.214.171.124 16:37, January 10, 2012 (UTC))
Super Saiyan level?
What level of Super Saiyan did he use in the anime version of Episode of Bardock? It should be the first, but he had the aura of a Super Saiyan 2 half the time; lightning sparks around him even when just standing still or walking, just like Gohan. Non-SS2 only has lightning when charging-up fast. Fadm tyler 14:31, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Definitely just Super Saiyan. This form has had lightning around it even when not powering up depending on the saga. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 08:11, January 24, 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think it was either. I think he was like Broly, and became a "Legendary" Super Saiyan. In the Episode of Bardock, the air diffused in that circular pattern, and the only time that's ever been seen was with Broly. 126.96.36.199 01:58, July 6, 2012 (UTC)
Golden Great Ape
- The requirements for Golden Great ape are unclear. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:02, August 18, 2012 (UTC)
Bardock and Ox-King are not related to each other in any way so they don't belong in each others family memebers list if I am correct because parents of one person and the parents of the other that gets married are not related they are only related to their kid's spouse.
we should put category:Villain since he is a villain in all his
canon appearances, or at least Former Villains if you count Episode of Bardock special 21:28, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Making him a hero does not mean he was never a villain, so we should consider all appearances. I'm not sure what you mean by "canon" anyway, since everyone defines it differently. The key here is, was there any point in time where he was a villain? The only time in question is really when he's going around with his team murdering innocent aliens and stealing their planets. The counterpoint is that he didn't want to be doing that, and he actively opposed Frieza's rule, which was the thing forcing him to do it in the first place. Let's talk about that specifically. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:54, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
- I personally feel that "villain" should be applied to those characters opposing the heroes, which Barock never did. I would say Bardock is an anti-hero (a protagonist who does some evil things), and not a villain, since he murders but also fights against the villains of the series. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:56, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
- Personally, I think the only thing that could categorize him as a villain is the fact that he was a Saiyan and part of the Planet Trade Organization, and his occupation meant that he had no choice but to perform villainous acts. But aside from that, as 10X Kamehameha said, he actually opposed Frieza, and in Episode of Bardock he battled Chilled and protected the Plants. Both of those things are rather heroic. Super Shmevan (talk) 22:43, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
Nah, all Saiyans are naturally evil (They killed all the Tuffles before the whole PTO stuff). If someone never did anything good, he can't be called a hero, or anti-hero. He just wanted to kill Freeza due to him discovering that he was going to kill all his fellow Saiyans (and that's kinda selfish, not necessarily a heroic act)01:11, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
- Anti-heroes are evil by definition, so being naturally evil as a Saiyan fits well. The article is pretty detailed and I don't think this decision is changing anything content-wise. We really only want to categorize him as a villain if he's threatening Earth or fighting Z Fighters. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:45, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
Then, is it fine removing him from this page? 03:06, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
- 10X pointed this convo out to me; just adding my two cents. In hindsight, Bardock is definitely Not a villain character. He's not even remotely a villain character. He was merely doing his job and found it dishonorable when Frieza had Dodoria wipe out his crew. [Now that was villainous]... But when it comes to the character of Bardock, he is neither a "former" villain, nor is he a villain in the long run; in the end, if anything, he's barely an anti-hero, more-so a hero in his own right for standing up to Frieza and Chilled, who are the actual villains in this equation. Wiping out the Meatians, for example, was just a job, much as most of Frieza's entire military of a few million are employed to loot and plunder, and therefore doesn't qualify as villains. Bardock is as much a "villain" as Vegeta and Piccolo are in the end of the series, which means neither are. Coincidentally, Piccolo attacks a slew of "ghosts" in the nether-realm to annoy Yemma so he can be sent to Hell; and Vegeta whacks a few thou in the tournament arena... But neither is a villain; both respectively sacrifice themselves to save those same people they once fought to kill... and Bardock is no different; standing up against the true villains is the key to this conundrum. [Rather random, but the actual villains are my favorites]. - 04:27, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
- I'd say he falls into the same category as Vegeta.Undominanthybrid (talk) 21:08, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
'Kay, maybe not a villain, but he is evil!!!!!!!11111 I'd say he is as evil as Paragus, another Saiyan who cared for ppl (only his son though)21:14, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
Do we should make some changes such his debut in manga to accomplish Dragon Ball Minus? Or at least, chronologic.
There are also his doing stuff and some expressions and actions that contradict a lot with ones presented in the TV Special. And also, noting a comparison, for example, in TV Special Bardock doesn't see his son departing, in Dragon Ball Minus, he does. Of course, his design was also changed.
Bardock has one more comrade.
Ocean Voice Actor
In which exact episode do we hear Bardock speak in the Ocean dub? Considering his on-screen appearances were never dubbed the only way Bardock could have a voice would have to be due to a change in the script that allowed it. HubStyle (talk) 13:39, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
Bardock will receive a Super Saiyan 3 form, apparently debutting in Jaaku Mission 5 as well.
No links available (Save for a guy directly from Japan who talks about it in a video) at this moment but there are a few images on Google, though we can't say those photos are official for sure.
Link to the video, I hope someone here understands japanese: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvKRGZYA5jg&feature=youtu.be
Episode of Bardock
Should the stuff from Episode of Bardock really be included as part of his main history? Not only does it not make sense in its own logic, it contradicts both the manga timeline and the anime, and the history of Super Saiyan God completely goes against the "Super Saiyan Legend" that they tried to create in this. AND, Toriyama's explanation on King Cold's origin is that he's a mutant, meaning he has no real ancestor or race, meaning Chilled doesn't actually exist. On top of that, it obviously wasn't even produced by Toryama. I think the Bardock page should make it clear it's more of a what-if than part of his acual history, as it will just lead to confusion. Jjgp1112 (talk) 18:01, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
- King Cold comes from a family of mutants, hence his sons Frieza and Cooler being very powerful too. It makes perfect sense that he may come from a line of other, older mutants, such as a Chilled. The Super Saiyan legend is compatible with EoB, since it may be that either no one heard of Bardock (and the SS legend is unrelated to him), or that he goes on to do other things in his life (some of them being the stuff of legend). Toriyama is credited as an author. This means that he is claiming to be directly involved. Any guess that he was not involved that you are making is not obvious, and the only piece of evidence points to you being wrong.
- Aside from these issues, that EoB section is already completely separate. It has its own header and the facts are not intermingled with other sections of the biography. It is not a what-if story. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 19:01, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
But it can't fit in with the manga either, because Dragon Ball Minus' events and timeline contradict it as well. His crew is different nor does he have psychic powers. As far as we know, the story was completely Ooishi's work and Toriyama was a consultant. In fact, Toriyama is listed as an author in all original Dragon Ball related works because he's the original series creator.
Regarding Chilled, Toriyama said that if there is a "race," King Cold and Frieza alone are the only beings who possess their power and cruelty. And, on top of that, the properties of time travel don't fit in with what we know in Dragon Ball at all. Jjgp1112 (talk) 19:43, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
- Then maybe Dragon Ball minus is the problem, ever think of that? Did you know that the manga occasionally contradicts itself? Based on your logic none of anything "counts" if you're going to rule out whole titles based on inconsistencies alone. I have presented a source saying that Toriyama was an author; please present your evidence to the contrary if you are going to stand by your statement—fan guesses are of no value at all. Cooler has been shown to have the same powers, and Chilled is presumed dead by the time Cold is born. I don't even know where to start with the time travel comment: it exists as a majot plot point in the manga, anime, and video games. Do you know who Trunks is? Cell? -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:43, August 5, 2014 (UTC)
Believe it or not, Cooler only exists in the movies. Akira Toriyama didn't mention him at all in the tidbit. This was his quote: "Freeza is what you might call a mutated life-form. Strictly speaking, Freeza’s father is a mutant with an abnormally high battle power. And, born from his father alone4, still in strong possession of the mutant traits, was Freeza.Accordingly, even saying “Freeza’s race”, these two are the only ones who possess an abnormal [level of] battle power and cruelty."
And you misunderstood me., The actual rules of time travel don't make any sense as it relates to Dragon Ball. Of course I know that time travel exists in the show, why would I even be on a Dragon Ball wiki if I didin't already know the storyline? But as was shown in the series, time travel doesn't create a time loop, it creates a different universe altogether, and so even if a blast was somehow able to send Bardock into the past, it would create a new timeline altogether. There's inconsistencies, and then there's entire plotholes that are too egregious to ignore, and since this is just some special instead of something that actually happened in the original series serialization...you could see how it could be dismissed. Until somebody flat out says "THIS IS CANON," it can't be if there's no way it can fit. Jjgp1112 (talk) 15:49, August 5, 2014 (UTC)
- Cooler is in GT and the quote doesn't say anything about King Cold not having parents. Bardock may well have created a new timeline like the Trunks and Cells did. Who would you like to say "this is canon?" What do you believe canon means? Toriyama is the author, by your logic the manga isn't canon because no one said it is. Nor the anime, movies, or Toriyama's quotes: he doesn't end every sentence with "and what I just said is canon". Part of that is because "canon" is a nonsense term that people use without thinking of what it means. If it is whatever Toriyama wrote, EoB is canon. If inconsistencies rule out media, then the original manga is not canon with itself. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:32, August 5, 2014 (UTC)
If you're going to disregard a quote that erases Cooler's existence because he appears in a show whose entire canon existence is erased by Battle of Gods then that opens up a new can of worms.
The only Author credit Toriyama has in Episode of Bardock is "original author"...which he also has for every single movie, which you can see on Kanzenshuu's movie guide. This is accompanied by "Dragon Ball, serialized by Shueisha," which signifies that it's based on the original manga by Akira Toriyama - and again, this is present in the movies. Naho Ooishi, Akio Iyoku, and Daisuke Terashi are credited with the planning. Does Toriyama having that credit in the movies make them canon as well even though the vast majority don't fit into the story either?
A media that's not part of the original serialization and can't align with any of the conventions and storylines of it can be freely disregarded from that serialization's storyline. Jjgp1112 (talk) 00:36, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't disregarded the quote, you've misinterpreted it; it doesn't say Cold has weak parents, you said that. GT and BoG are perfectly consistent, and if they weren't then GT would be canon based on your definition above since it is closer to being an original serialization. If instead newer things that contradict older things "erase" the earlier's existence, then by your own logic any inconsistencies you claim in EoB make the original manga "erased" too. Besides which, you continually fail to address the FACT that the manga is inconsistent with itself many times; I assume you have ignored it so far because you realize it makes inconsistencies an invalid criterion for your canon definition. Hopefully you are beginning to see now that not only is your notion of canon is fundamentally flawed, but the use of the word canon in the context of Dragon Ball is never going to fit.
- You said, "The only Author credit Toriyama has in Episode of Bardock is original author". That is wrong. He is also credited as the Director of episode of Bardock. No, not the director of the original manga: he is credited for Original Concept AND Director. Do not misinterpret as author and director of the original concept, because that's not what it says. To your definition, anything can be freely disregarded by anyone. We are an encyclopedic resource for viewers of all types of DB media to get information on the franchise. We are not a means to push a particular fan's bias against certain types of media that they have personally chosen to ignore, or a place to say what some fans think "counts". If you want to argue about your personal canon timeline, go post on the DB fanon site. If you change your mind and want to contribute to a project collecting unbiased DB info, then read the Manual of Style for a look at the correct way to write an encyclopedic article. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 18:30, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
The director credit has been confirmed to be a mistranslation (http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26441), so perhaps you should concentrate on relying on more thorough information than poorly translation scanlations.
GT and Battle of Gods are inconsistent 1) The Pilaf Gang are now old, 2) King Kai is still on Grand Kai's planet despite having his normal planet restored in BoG...and in fact in GT his planet is restored at a later point. Additionally, the entire Super 17 saga couldn't happen in the supposed "canon" story because people in Hell don't have their bodies to begin with. Several GT plot points rely on filler from Dragon Ball Z that is itself retconned in the anime and of course doesn't appear in the manga altogether. The manga has inconsistencies as well, but these are typically things that are directly addressed at certain points or are simply information that we assumed was true without it ever being mentioned at all. Or, things related to strength that are really the result to fans misinterperating things, or even worse, relying on incorrect dub information that this very wiki puts at the forefront despite suppsoeduly being focused on being thorough and factual.
GT isn't subject to being safe because it wasn't written by Akira Toriyama. it isn't part of the manga, and is instead an original anime created by Toei. Neither are the Movies. Its promiximity to the end of Dragon Ball has nothing to do with the fact it can't fit within the serialization, whereas Battle of Gods can. It has nothing to do with the time of creation and everything to do with how a different story by different authors fits within the story as written by Akira Toriyama. Unless you can prove that it authored by Akira Toriyama with information that isn't a misinterpretation or translation, the special's status is no different from any other non-serialized movie. Jjgp1112 (talk) 19:10, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
- Wow, please read the sources you provide before claiming things from them. The fans there, who by the way we have no reason to trust any more than the fan translation editors, just say that it is closer to supervisor than director. Your claim that he is only the author of the original manga, is still wrong.
- Your brief attempt at justification for why GT inconsistencies make it not count, but you have some personal innate understanding of manga inconsistencies, is a personal preference and unacceptable as either justification in a discussion or as a citation in an encyclopedic article. If you want to convince others of things, stick to facts and specific examples. Try to stay away from meaningless statements like "we assumed was true without it ever being mentioned". Oh, you knew something that the others readers didn't? A psychic connection with the publishers perhaps, but not actually a fact that we can post. Next you talk about how manga inconsistencies are just dub errors. Well, no, because the anime does not effect the Japanese manga... not sure what you're talking about at all really. From what I can see, you have absolutely no evidence that inconsistencies have anything to do with canon. Consider perhaps that "canon" is a meaningless term in context. Consider further than the Manual of Style says to report all info, and doesn't mention omitting things that you personally disagree with.
- You have made no attempt to provide any notes about Toriyama's involvement in any movies or GT, and have obviously not read our articles on them. We have done a thorough job of stating those things, including Toriyama creating character designs and having a story author credit in GT, in additional to and separate from his credit as original manga author. You want evidence from a source you can trust that Toriyama was involved with EoB? I have no idea why you trust some random fan forum, but read the rest of the posts in the one you linked. Your own evidence says he supervised. Whether he directed or supervised, the point is that at the very least he said it was okay before he let it out. You might be wondering, why would Toriyama let something out that didn't agree with previous events in his manga? The answer is because he doesn't care much about inconsistencies, and prefers entertainment. My support: he let all kinds of contradictions go, and we have a list here stating all the instances that we could find. Need more evidence that Toriyama is an entertainer and doesn't care too much about inconsistencies: read Dragon Ball Minus.
- With all that said, if you still don't believe me about anything I've said, that's okay. Your view of the DB universe is a personal choice, and you can construct any timeline that you want with anything omitted. However, respect that as an encyclopedic source we have a duty to report all info without that sort of personal bias. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:33, August 7, 2014 (UTC)