This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Full-Power Super Saiyan article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Dragon Ball Wiki? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Do not bite the newcomers Respond in a mature manner Be welcoming Maintain civility at all times	Article policies No opinionated research for articles Have a neutral point of view Verifiability

Archives
Archive 1	November 13, 2008
Archive 2	March 16, 2011

Contents 1 Wording Change 2 Votes 2.1 Option A: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen in the first transformation makes a return. 2.2 "Option B: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen often in the first transformation makes a return." 2.3 Option C: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen all the time in the first transformation makes a return." 2.4 Comments 3 They did that to a great failure according to me... 4 Goten 5 No Aura 6 Does this push the SSj multiplier up a little? 7 About increasing power in FPSSJ 8 Why was my edit reverted?

Wording ChangeEdit

The Perfect Warrior, if your interpretation of "all the time" is "most of the time," is all that you're looking for at this point a change of those three words? Because that's easy and I'm open to suggestions. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 01:20, March 16, 2011 (UTC)

1.) Goku spent an overwhelming majority of the frieza fight with the same light hair as fpssj goku in cell fight. I have 120 pics I can post right now if you want showing him light hair at every stage of the fight

2.) Goku and Veg both also spent an overwhelming majority with that color hair in the android 19 fight

3.) Cooler's revenge ssj Goku had the light hair also, same with metal cooler

4.) Vegeta has the same light colored hair vs android 18

5.) pictures of ssj3 gotenks with the light hair, assj vegeta and trunks with the light hair, and ssj2 teen gohan and maj veg with the light hair show every form shows the light hair. This brings reasonable doubt on the statement that fpssj is different because it implies Toriyama drew them that color the whole time

6.) Goku fpssj against cell was actually golden with an aura for longer than vegeta was as a normal ssj vs 19, goku as well.

7.) The daizenshuu says nothing about the hair color being any different. In fact, it says it's arguably not a real form, which implies no color difference, and talks about how little is said about it.

8.) Vegeta says goku and gohan appear ssj in the manga after they leave Rosat (the manga I supplied is not the official Viz translation, it can be found quoted on the daizenshuu fpssj page)

9.) Nobody mentions anything about different hair color in the anime, Piccolo says they're ssj, it's said they are ssj but it's become their normal state

10.) None of the other guides makes any claim that the hair color is lighter or any different in fpssj.

So the statement about the hair color being light, but when powered up returns to the glow seen all the time in ssj should be removed. Instead It should simply say that little is noted about the appearance, other than Vegeta saying it appears ssj. Even the comments that it appears more relaxed can be explained because in ssj they were only ssj while fighting, whereas in fpssj they were seen relaxing and enjoying themselves. The Perfect Warrior 10:45, March 20, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 20, 2011

Please use semi-colons to separate you statements from other posters', like I've been doing. Now all those things you said were nice, but what exactly about the statement, "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen all the time in the first transformation makes a return," do you feel may be untrue? You'll need to explain what you meant by the second thing you said as well. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 17:19, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

The statement implies that there is a difference in the appearance of fpssj and ssj. The golden glow seen all the time in the first transformation makes a return implies that ssj is golden all the time. While it is true that this statement could also mean that the golden glow is simply more often seen, it is implied that it is constant because on the ssj page the only color listed is the golden color. And to explain my statement that it means either or, the statement implies there is a difference by saying the fpssj appearance, and then making a distinction with the glow, saying it then has a feature attributed to ssj. This implies that it's similar to ssj with the glow, but not with the yellowish white. When we look at normal ssj fights, when they are sitting around calm, they have the light colored hair just like goku dude when calm as a fpssj. That's what my statement meant about Fpssj calmness. We attribute the light hair to them because only in this form did we see them not fighting as ssj, just relaxing and thinking about things, whereas in ssj we only saw them fighting, yet when there were breaks in fights or when they were toying or not at full power their hair often went to the light yellow. Which is why Vegeta against 19 was light the whole fight, but when he fought against 18 and was pushing himself to keep up he was golden most of the fight, yet when they had breaks and were standing on top of cars Vegeta's hair went light yellow again.

I think the statement either makes a distinction between the two, or is unclear in what it says and can be taken to mean many things. I think it would be better to replace the entire statement with a quote about what Vegeta said in the manga, that they appear ssj, or to simply remove the statement from the article. Either way, the ssj page should have the light hair color added to it's colors to make it more accurate. The Perfect Warrior 19:30, March 20, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 20, 2011

Did you see what I mean about the colons? Check out the revision differences and see where I removed them from your statement just now. It's not crucial, but it's how some text appears indented, whereas other text is totally left aligned, making it easier to tell who says what.

While I disagree with how you have interpreted "all the time" in the context, I do agree that that phrase could be replaced without losing the meaning in the way that it's often interpreted in American English, which is as "a lot." I worry about the Vegeta quote regardless of how it's interpreted or discrepancies between versions we've produced, because like you said, that's when they're calm, whereas the focus of the statement in the article is to talk about the change in appearance as they power up. I suggest that we could disambiguate the meaning of the statement for the readers by either removing "all the time" altogether, or by replacing it with "often." Completely removing the statement would take out the mention of the tendency of the hair to get darker as the fighters power up, which you have correctly pointed out.

Option A: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen in the first transformation makes a return."

This option does not lead the readers to believe that the golden glow is always present in the SS form, instead leaving out any quantification whatsoever.

Option B: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen often in the first transformation makes a return."

This option specifically lets the readers know the the SS form is not always accompanied by a golden glow, even suggesting that it may not be the norm.

Option C: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen all the time in the first transformation makes a return."

This option is the unaltered version. I'll present it just in case someone reading this feels strongly about the current wording.

I think either of these variations would be accurate without losing the info on powering up leading to the gold hair. Let me know which you prefer, or we can further refine the statement. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:42, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

VotesEdit

Please sign underneath the option you prefer, and leave any comments under the comments section. This vote is open to everyone.

Option A: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen in the first transformation makes a return.Edit

"Option B: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen often in the first transformation makes a return."Edit

• -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib.
• PrinceZarbon talk contrib 01:39, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
• Joegt123 01:46, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
•  SSJ4 Lewich  talk  contribs  08:10, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
• Jeangabin666 JeangabinTalkContrib 20:05, March 22, 2011 (UTC)
• 98.219.76.244 02:19, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Option C: "When relaxed, the user's hair appears more of a yellowish white, but when powered up, the golden glow seen all the time in the first transformation makes a return."Edit

CommentsEdit

I feel that option B is the best because it lets people know that the original SS form is not always drawn with the same tone of golden hair. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:42, March 20, 2011 (UTC)

This is really confusing to me as I never had a strong interest myself in the SS forms... since there's hardly any difference to me really. I'm going with option B however primarily because it's the closest differentiation showcasing the first ss form's "often" appearing golden glow. - PrinceZarbon talk contrib 01:39, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

I like how A sounds, but 10X makes a good point. The glow isn't there all the time. It generally seems to do with whether the user is actively fighting and powered up or not. Joegt123 01:46, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

Option B seems the most viable to me.  SSJ4 Lewich  talk  contribs  08:11, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

I think A flows a little better, but if B is preferred for accuracy, then that's fine with me too! :-) --  talk contr 08:15, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

All those statements are alright, but the structure itself is misleading. All three make a distinction that the golden hair is the same, but don't attribute the light hair to ssj, and because ur not attributing one right b4 you attribute another, it sounds as if you are not attributing light color to ssj. I know if I had never seen dbz before and I read that statement, I'd think the light hair was fpssj only. Why not use a statement like this?

D.) There is no verifiable difference between the hair color of the fpssj and the ssj forms; in both the user's hair appears yellowish white when relaxed, and golden when powered up.

This statement shows that no difference is noted and doesn't leave any room for misinterpretation about whether the statement is drawing a distinction between their appearances.

Also I don't know what you mean by semicolon, sorry

The Perfect Warrior 03:07, March 23, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 22, 2011

or maybe just don't even mention ssj

The user's hair appears light yellow when relaxed, but changes to a golden glow when powered up.

or something like that, I'm too tired to think right now studying for a physics test lol wish me luck.

The Perfect Warrior 03:15, March 23, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 22, 2011

Looks like we have a consensus, thanks everyone! -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:24, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Lol alright I'm done. See, normally when people discuss something, if someone brings up a new idea they bring the group back to argue it further. Otherwise you still keep a misleading line in your article, and people continue to quote this article as evidence that fpssj and ssj somehow have a different appearance.

The Perfect Warrior 23:55, March 26, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 26, 2011

is full powered super saiyan a real form

it actally is the same as super saiyan

Images: JeangabinTalkContrib 10:16, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

They did that to a great failure according to me... Edit

Goku should have somehow changed DNA, so that his Super Saiyan form would be his base form and he will be able to maintain it even unconciously... :)

That way he would managed to beat Perfect Cell too...... :D

But then he would have lost his Saiyan form :(

117.205.10.150 18:04, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

Uh, yeah. Basicly, the Super Saiyan transformation DOES become more or less one's base form. That's the point. He CAN maintain it unconciously; doesn't he, like, take a nap while transformed? Anyway, how the heck do you propose he change his DNA? I don't even think that would work if he could. And shouldn't this kind of thing be on the forums or something? ZPRN 19:39, June 19, 2011 (UTC)

Goku's clothes started glowing when he powered up to fight cell just like ss3.....

117.205.2.131 17:27, July 15, 2011 (UTC)

Well how about an AFPSS or an Ascended Full-Power Super Saiyan or even a FPSS2....

You can't go Ascended when you've Mastered Super Saiyan. Going Ascended is like trying to pour water into a balloon that's too tight. When you're MSSJ the balloon is just the right size - you can fill it fine, but it won't stretch any further either. To go any higher you'd need SSj2. Xfing (talk) 22:29, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

GotenEdit

Is it possible that Goten can obtain this form, because he seems to have the same things when he goes super saiyan. He never really learned how to go Super Saiyan, and even when he did the first time he was completly calm. That and Goku was a Fpss during the creation of Goten so is it possible that he always had Super Saiyan in him, but he never unlocked it and when he did he was in complete comtrol.{{SUBST:User:SuperSaiyanKrillin/sig4}} 17:28, September 25, 2011 (UTC)

does vegeta ever turn fpssj?

It's possible but never shown, and we don't post speculation in articles. Vegeta does not, no. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:17, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

look, fpssj is the term designated to when someone has full control of their ssj form and can be in it w/o draining their ki. There's literally no appearance difference between fpssj and ssj. fpssj is said to appear more calm, but that's only true because they were able to relax in the anime show in this form, so of course they appeared more calm. While actually in battle vs pcell, there was no appearance difference whatsoever seen in Goku to differentiate him from his ssj battles against, for example, android 19.

Btw, it is impossible to know whether anyone in the buu saga used the fpssj form at all, because they weren't ssjs while relaxed, they powered down before and after every battle, so it's impossible to tell whether they maintained the use of this form after the 7 years between the two sagas. I don't see why the article includes that Goku and Gohan used the fpssj form in the buu saga when this was never stated in the anime or manga. Also, the goten and trunks seeming relaxed... and very calm... lol couldn't someone have written that better? Like "It should also be noted that Goten and Trunks appear calm and collective in their ssj forms during the buu saga, so it is possible that they too may have mastered this form. This, however, is never stated or verified."

129.2.129.25 19:47, November 18, 2011 (UTC)anonymous dbz contributor

Official guides disagree with some of what you say here, you should check out our articles and Manual of Style for details. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 03:50, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

yea, no they don't. The guides say fpssj is the mastery of ssj, they are not different forms, but at fpssj the user appears more relaxed. That's a no brainer, because in fpssj in the show they weren't always fighting and were relaxing, whereas before they only used ssj to battle. There's no true difference in appearance whatsoever.

72.83.76.250 06:11, November 19, 2011 (UTC)Anonymous dbz contributor

You can't interpret the guides with your own opinion, we only list facts here. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:04, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

I'm not interpretting anything. It says this right in the daizenshuu for fpssj

Debatably, this is not even an actual transformation; it's simply an advancement of an earlier form. However, as the user takes his previous form and does something "new" with it, we'll catalogue it for completeness' sake.

They say themselves that it isn't a new form, they simply do something new with it, which they say is the ability to get rid of the restlessness and be relaxed in the form, seen in the anime when they are slumbering in the form. They do not make any distinction of stress on the face when fighting an opponent. So, as I said, when Goku is fighting an opponent there's no difference in appearance at all between fpssj and ssj, the only difference is in ki consumption. Fpssj is simply the mastery of ssj, no distinction should be made between their appearances.

129.2.129.38 15:47, November 22, 2011 (UTC)Anonymous dbz contributor

Things officially stated to be forms are forms. You are not the first to bring this up, and over the six years of this site our thousands of community members have taken the stance of the official publications, which is that this is a form. Please read the Manual of Style for details. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 05:54, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

No Aura Edit

It's worth mentioning that a powered-down FPSSJ is the only way for a Super Saiyan to not have an aura in the manga. The anime's horribly inconsistent with it, but the manga always has Super Saiyans drawn with their auras - with this single exception. It deserves a mention in the artcile Xfing 04:31, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure knocked down/knocked out Super Saiyans lost their aura too. Either way this seems like original research (since you have to have someone go through and look at every manga panel, then we have to simply take their word for it). We try and avoid things like this and only use info that is officially sourced or directly observable. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 04:36, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

Does this push the SSj multiplier up a little?Edit

Since this is, basically, a perfection of the SSj form, would this push up the SSj multiplier from 50x to 75x base form? Just wondering.Disasters GoOn (talk) 01:19, August 23, 2012 (UTC)Disasters GoOn

About increasing power in FPSSJ Edit

I think that this deserves a mention. While I'm not sure about the accuracy of this translation,

http://www.mangapark.com/manga/dragon-ball-z/c391/7

Vegeta states very clearly what the form's true benefit is supposed to be. The wording used in the article is very confusing, as all these "stamina conservation" gimmicks aren't really all that essential in a battle in the Dragonball universe. What matters is power. The true benefits of Full-Power Super Saiyan are:

1) The ability to freely modify your powerlevel as in Base form

2) The ability to access the totality of Super Saiyan powers without the drawbacks of getting heavy. That's the most important thing - the perfection in Super Saiyan allows the Saiyan to power up and his body to tolerate this power. An untrained Super Saiyan would push the body beyond its limits and therefore cause it great strain, which resulted in muscular bloating. A FPSSJ doesn't have this problem, due to his body being completely used to the transformation. This at least deserves a mention in the article. Xfing (talk) 23:20, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

First off, the person translating that clearly does not have a full grasp of English. Second, though Ascended SS and Ultra SS are new forms that increase weight, normal SS can also increase muscle mass and power. You appear to be assuming that Vegeta is referring to these two new forms, when he is actually referring to just the original. Full Power SS is often referred to as perfect control (no weight gain/speed loss) over the Super Saiyan form for this reason. Perfect control (no weight gain/speed loss) of Ultra SS is SS2. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 23:34, September 27, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. This translator is bad. I got my hands on the literal translation from Japanese by a Japanese fan, and this turned up:

Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7

Context: talking about Goku and Gohan's "natural-feeling" Super Saiyan state

Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

What I'd like the article to contain is at least the mention about powering up to the max - the article is more focused on stamina conservation and stamina to fight lengthy battles, but it foregoes the simple and important issue of powering up to the max. Without the USSJ drawbacks.

Plus, I'd like the article to elaborate a bit more about why FP-SSJ makes ASSJ/USSJ obsolete. It's because Ascended and Ultra are not so much transformations, as adverse effects on the body for powering beyond what your body can normally tolerate. As a FP-SSJ these adverse effects cease, and one can power up to the maximum of Super Saiyan powers (that is - equal to the top power of USSJ) with no giant muscles nor rapid stamina drain.

And no, Super Saiyan 2 is not a mastered version of Ultra, Ultra is clearly still just a part of SS1. If things were as you think, then why didn't Goku go Ascended against Cell during the Cell Games? If he timed it well, he'd well be able to overpower Cell and destroy him. He also told Gohan that he was giving it his best, and Gohan wasn't impressed. The answer is simple, he didn't go Ascended/Ultra because he couldn't. He powered up to his maximum powerlevel with no muscular swelling/ ki leaking is all. Xfing (talk) 21:49, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Your quote doesn't support your argument and pretty much nothing you just said is true. It's stated many times by many characters that the disadvantage of USS is speed, and that the characters at USS have equivalent power to SS2 Gohan and SP Cell. Power-weighted Cell is the equivalent as well. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 22:07, September 28, 2012 (UTC)

Where was that stated? The onlly thing Cell stated is that Trunks became stronger than himself AT THE MOMENT. And Cell was heavily suppressed at that point, it wasn't even a quarter of his full power. Other than that, 50% FP-SSJ Goku was stated by Trunks to be already stronger than his full-power USSJ self.

Trunks fought against Perfect Cell freshly after his transformation. But you seem to have omitted the fact, that Cell greatly powered up against Goku in their Cell Games match, and then further made a gigantic powerup after he got frustrated with SS2 Gohan. SS2 Gohan effortlessly beat Cell even at his full power, which was said by others to be unbelievably powerful, and they believed they'd be doomed. There really isn't any reason to think that USSJ power is anywhere close to SS2. Xfing (talk) 11:05, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't omit anything, I just only said what is relevant. If you want the full summary of events then read the articles. Like you said, Trunks was indeed as Strong as Cell at USS. I would need to see some quotes to believe the rest of what you said. In any case, you can believe me or not, just don't alter the articles without quotes or citations on new claims. And I don't mean from poorly translated, illegally copied fan versions. -- 10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 18:47, September 29, 2012 (UTC)

Why was my edit reverted?Edit

Why was my edit reverted? That's what did happen later on against Gohan vs Bojack,Zangya,Bujin and Bido fight. He fought very well for a while and then almost got killed after Bojack transformed. That should of been kept in. I made a good edit to the page and it gets reverted. Honestly I'm not trying to harass anyone but for someone reason I think Jean is getting a bit greedy with edits. People make a good edit and it gets reverted? What's up with that? It was what happened in the movie Gohan handled himself well and then he got almost killed thanks to a Bear Hug before he turned SSJ2. So please explain to me why my edit was reverted.{{SUBST:User:Destroy Us All/Sig2}} 17:12, May 3, 2013 (UTC)