Talk:Gohan

From Dragon Ball Wiki, the ''Dragon Ball'' encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gohan article. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Dragon Ball Wiki? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Do not bite the newcomers Respond in a mature manner Be welcoming Maintain civility at all times	Article policies No opinionated research for articles Have a neutral point of view Verifiability

Archives
Archive 1	November 14, 2008

i love gohan!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!he is j.u.s.t so good!!!!!!!!.smh 17:06, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Contents 1 Whoever's saying that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku... 2 About Gohan's age... 3 Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku 4 Gohan in Dragon Ball Evolution? 5 Ultimate Gohan has a time limit? 6 Gohan's height 7 Origin of the Great Saiyaman 8 Quote Change 9 Kidnappee 10 Gohan vs Goku: The Raw Panel 11 Gohan Reached his Limit? 12 Ultimate Gohan Power Increase 13 True Potential 14 Gohan as the main hero? 15 Gohan's D.O.B

[edit] Whoever's saying that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku...

Its fact that Ultimate Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, however FULL POWER SSJ3 Goku easily destroys everyone except for Vegito/Super Vegito.

Stop making edits about Ultimate Gohan being stronger than SSJ3 Goku; we can't be so sure. Gotenks, yes, but not Goku. Hyper Zergling 22:23, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I agree with you regarding this matter. Goku isn't surpassed by all characters. Dekoshu talk contrib 22:39, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

ThanksHyper Zergling 04:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Gohan was indeed stronger than SS3 Goku. Though this was somewhat obscured in the English anime, the original wording in the manga makes it pretty plain. AurochSpirit assembled a fairly concise compilation of the relevant information on YT a while back. (Make sure and read the manga scans in the video description, as they're even more telling than the video.) --

talk contr

09:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Oh my god. How many times do we have to go over this? We don't have any proof, and in the manga, none of it is stated. As a matter of fact, the manga leans more towards SSJ3 Goku being stronger. Hyper Zergling 00:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

What do you mean "how many times"? This is the first time this material has been brought forth. And if you'll review it, I think you'll agree that it's rather compelling. (Especially if you read the manga scans in the video description.) If you have some material from the manga that contradicts this, by all means note it here. --

talk contr

12:20, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

First off, I didn't even edit it stating that SSJ3 Goku is stronger. Second, no one has absolute proof that Ultimate Gohan is stronger, unless it was quoted by Akira Toriyama himself. And I gave an example a while ago, and this is like the fifth time saying this: When Goku went SSJ3, Gohan felt his power from the Kai planet. When Gohan unleashed his energy on the Kai planet, no one on Earth felt his energy until he came back. Hyper Zergling 03:34, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

It's very hard to determine the facts between Super Saiyan 3 Goku being weaker or stronger than Ultimate Gohan.Dekoshu talk contrib 03:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Also, it may or may not be concise that Goku is easily surpassed by Ultimate Gohan. If he is truly stronger than SS3 Goku, then why can't be able to defeat Kid Buu or Super Buu completely? Dekoshu talk contrib 03:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Nothing can usually be supported by a quote from Toriyama himself. What I mean is that the facts of the series haven't been established because someone has interviewed Toriyama and personally asked him to confirm certain things. The facts have been established by the story Toriyama wrote, and alternatively Toei's anime adaptation. The manga really does seem to imply that (Ultimate) Gohan can defeat Buu without the need to fuse with Goku. Even in the anime Goku acknowledges that he and Vegeta are no match for a weakened form of the same Buu that Gohan toyed with in battle. It's all in the link Nonoitall provided... I'll agree it doesn't make anything 100% but at the same time it doesn't mean you should completely debunk the possibility when there are several implications that suggest Ultimate Gohan is stronger than Goku at Super Saiyan 3. Storm talk – projects 04:04, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

That is pretty understandable, Vixen. Not everyone always disagree though. Dekoshu talk contrib 04:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I apologize if the statement was rather presumptous and patronizing, but Gohan is a Half-Saiyan, and in his "Ultimate form", he may have great power, but he was killed by Kid Buu. It's such a shame, but Goku did destroy Kid Buu with the Spirit Bomb, but the topic is that is SS3 Goku weaker or stronger than Gohan? Why and how? Dekoshu talk contrib 04:19, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Note: Below comment tweaked twice by Vixen Windstorm for accuracy (see bracketed italic text).

@Hyper Zergling: Like Storm said, there's very [little] on this wiki that can be supported directly by a Toriyama quote. If you want to adjust the wording so that it's more clear just how the assertion is derived, I have no objections. Admittedly, it's never directly stated that Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SS3 Goku. AFAIK it was never directly stated that SS3 Goku was stronger than [Gohan] either, but given the evidence in the series, it seems like a reasonable conclusion. And if you'll read the material that I linked, you'll find that your claim about no one feeling Gohan's energy from Earth is incorrect. (See question #11 in the video description.)

@Dekoshu: (1) Why didn't Gohan destroy Super Buu completely? Because he never finished fighting him. Super Buu saw that he was outmatched and self-destructed. Gohan fled the scene with Goten and Trunks, and by the time the dust settled, Buu was nowhere to be found. When they discovered him again, Gohan was about to resume fighting him, but Buu tricked them into letting Goten and Trunks fuse again. Buu then absorbed Gotenks and Piccolo, making him stronger than Ultimate Gohan or SS3 Goku. (2) Why didn't Gohan destroy Kid Buu completely? He never fought him. (3) Why was Kid Buu able to kill Gohan, while being beaten by Goku? Gohan was unconscious and Kid Buu destroyed the planet he was on. --

talk contr

11:36, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate your explanation, Nonoitall, but I'm not a newb. I know already what exactly happened with Gohan and the others before. But an explanation isn't so bad, so thank you. Dekoshu talk contrib 17:29, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright, nonoitall. If Ultimate Gohan was stronger than SSJ3 Goku, Akira Toriyama would've had him fight Kid Buu in the end. But then you would counteract with, "What about Vegito?" The Potara earrings were supposed to create permanent fusions. Toriyama obviously needed an excuse to split him. Hyper Zergling 02:01, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

umm im going to agree with hyperzergling on this one.Both me and my brother have been watching the series ever since it aired on cartoonnetwork. There is no proof that ultimate gohan is stronger then SSJ3 goku,but i personaly think that goku is strongerLink67125 02:17, 15 January 2009 (UTC)link67125

Hyper Zergling: I counteract with this: Why question Toriyama when he wrote the series the way he did? The series is his creation and thus he could decide who the combatants of battles come down to. He didn't have to brand the final battle with taking place between Kid Buu and Ultimate Gohan simply because (let's just say for this example) Gohan was stronger than Goku. Don't forget that there was a time when the series was ongoing, and ongoing series aren't usually done for the sake of what fanbases will say in retrospect, but to keep the interest and appeal of current readers and viewers. There were no wikis and massive databases 20 years ago for the series, and when it was in its original production run, many of us were either playing with plastic blocks, still in diapers or not even born, so by the time we were finally exposed to the series, the (primitive, except to current young fans) internet was able to help shape our conceptions of the series. The point is that this isn't something Japan had during the series' original run, so all they had to support their ideas of the series were the implications made in the manga and anime. Well the same rules apply here; if it isn't outright stated but is at least outright implied, then it doesn't matter if the plot came to pass that Gohan was killed while incapacitated, it is still alluded to that in his prime Gohan could outclass Buu.

Link67125: The series existed before Cartoon Network began airing the dub, but ironically even in the dub Goku still implies he's no match for Super Buu. The manga (basically the highest level of canon) makes the implication as well, but the fact that even the anime dub supports it only solidifies the theory. Storm talk – projects 05:05, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Goku never said he was no match for Super Buu (without anyone absorbed). And kid Buu is stronger than super Buu (without anyone absorbed). How? Because Fat Buu's "kindness" stopped super Buu from using his full power, and kid Buu had no inhibition. Yes, super Buu was potentially stronger, but fat Buu held him back. And all the major enemies were killed by the strongest hero at the time, excluding fusions. Hyper Zergling 17:32, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

is he????please give me comments!smh 17:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

All I'm saying is that what's directly implied in the highest level of canon, and supported by the anime adaptation, outweighs any amount of original research made by a fan, unless there's reasonable doubt that can be assumed because of retroactive continuity (retcon) or a blatant inconsistency. Of course, it's difficult to verify something that is only implied, but Goku makes it pretty clear that he and Gohan don't need to fuse since Gohan has the power to defeat Buu alone, and while inside a form of Super Buu weaker than the one Gohan battles, Goku makes it pretty clear that taking on Buu in current circumstances would mean death for both he and Vegeta. Storm talk – projects 18:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Goku was willing to fight Super buu, after goten and trunk's fusion ended and he became "mostly piccolo"

Vegeta wasn't even there at the time when Gohan fought Super Buu, unless of course you're talking about after he absorbed Gohan. Super Buu with Gohan absorbed was stronger than all of them, nonetheless, so it wouldn't have made a difference. If SSJ3 Goku faced Super Buu (without anyone absorbed), the result would be the same as when Ultimate Gohan fought him. Super Buu is only barely stronger than fat Buu (when he was first resurrected). And SSJ3 Goku fought pretty evenly with kid Buu, who was stronger than Super Buu. I even made a poll asking who is stronger: http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=35197 Hyper Zergling 20:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

I already knew that dbz was aired in japan before th dub was aired on cartoon network. Nevertheless i don't care if i win this arguement or not im just trying to state my opinion and i was also trying to get everyone to stop argueing.Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on this matter, but you should not put uncomfirmed info in the article, it is perfectly fine if you say that its an opinion when you say that you think gohan is strongerLink67125 02:00, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not saying I have any opinion on the matter. In any case, I use evidence supplied by the mangaka to form my opinions, rather than rely on unverifiable fan interpretation (even my own potential interpretations). I'm saying that using the information given in source material, it's hinted that Gohan is stronger than Goku at this point in the series. Does this mean I personally think Gohan is stronger? No, because it was Goku's extent that was ultimately depicted rather than Gohan's (leaving Gohan's extent ambiguous), but what I do know is that for some reason people choose to reject, Toriyama deliberately conveyed through Goku that Gohan was superior to him. As for unconfirmed information in the article, there is a mention of Gohan being stronger than Goku, but it's accompanied by a note saying that this is something that was only implied. Storm talk – projects 02:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

ok, i didn't exactly mean opinion but if you think its impied thats ok with me, its just that i want to end this arguement and i would like to think that everyone would argee with me about ending this arguement now. The sooner this ends the sooner we can all go back to not having to argue over something this insignifigant. I would like to thank you for listening to my opinions and employing reason with me even though i am quite new to dbzwiki.Link67125 02:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

No problem, everybody's opinions are welcome. I think it might be best to end this debate as well, as it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The article now points out the facts surrounding the possibility of Gohan > Goku, without forcing the reader to take it as fact. Because it can't be verified, the mention of its implication is basically the most that can be done to enlighten the reader anyways, and this discussion has really just been repeating itself for almost two days. Nonetheless if anyone ever has new updates about this subject, feel free to present them here. Storm talk – projects 02:49, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Iwould like to thankyou again for listening to me and hyperzergling and for agreeing to end this point less debateLink67125 02:55, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

What happens if the opinion happens to be unacceptable? Dekoshu talk contrib 02:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

@Hyper Zergling: (I'm not sure if you're listening in anymore, but I just wanted to cover some of your assertions just in case. It looks like the discussion has kind of quieted down with the new wording anyway, so this is mainly just a reference for anyone else who's curious.)

Quote: Goku never said he was no match for Super Buu (without anyone absorbed).

Quote: If SSJ3 Goku faced Super Buu (without anyone absorbed), the result would be the same as when Ultimate Gohan fought him.

While inside Buu, Goku said that if he and Vegeta fought Super Buu (with no one absorbed) that Buu would kill them. (This was stated in both the anime and the manga.) Bare in mind that Goku's fight with Super Buu+Gotenks+Piccolo was filler in the anime and does not appear in the original manga.

Quote: And kid Buu is stronger than super Buu (without anyone absorbed).

This is another source of confusion that is somewhat exacerbated by the wording in the English anime. On this subject, there's another YT compilation that discusses the whole Kid Buu issue, but that's for another conversation. Even so, you're right in that Kid Buu is the most volatile form, and as such, the most dangerous.

Quote: Goku was willing to fight Super buu, after goten and trunk's fusion ended and he became "mostly piccolo"

In the anime, that's implied. ("You don't expect to fight me like that?") However, in the original manga, Goku says "Gohan can handle you now" again implying that Gohan is stronger than Goku.

@Storm: Thanks for filling in the gaps in my post - not sure why I was having such a hard time typing correctly the other night. :-P --

talk contr

03:01, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

But there's a problem: Goku never went Super Saiyan Three, so obviously he wouldn't be able to defeat Super Buu. And Goku said that Gohan could handle him, because it was Gohan's fight, and his ultimate form couldn't be wasted. But of course, no one ever pays any attention to what the other person is trying to say. Hyper Zergling 06:40, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

What reason would Goku have to go SS3 unless he actually intended to engage Buu? There's no indication that Goku wasn't accounting for his SS3 transformation when he said that he and Vegeta would be killed by Super Buu. If Goku were stronger than Gohan, then what you mentioned could have been his rationale for saying Gohan could handle Buu, but the rest of the series implies the opposite. --

talk contr

09:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Why would he have even gone Super Saiyan in the first place, if he wasn't intending on fighting Buu? Hyper Zergling 06:32, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

None. That's probably why he wasn't a Super Saiyan when he made that statement. --

talk contr

08:24, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

But Vegeta wasn't there at the time... Besides, consider this: http://www.mangafox.com/page/manga/read/214/dragon_ball/chapter.16258/page.3/ Piccolo didn't say anything about Buu getting any stronger, or at most a little stronger. He only said that he was more evil. Hyper Zergling 19:34, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

If you want to cite something with an link to a page of the manga, the most credible way to do so is with a link to a page of the official manga, and not a scanlation translated by who knows. Sometimes verbatim is the only way to confirm certain things, and comparing what chapters I own with these scanlations, these guys only capture verbatim maybe half the time. Storm talk – projects 20:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

So that makes your version more accurate? It was still scantalated, nonetheless. Unless you expect me to read Japanese. Hyper Zergling 23:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

That's a little much. What I expect in the least is that if you try to prove something, use the official source material to prove it. I wouldn't use Dragon Ball Z Abridged to corroborate what happens in the anime. That example may be a little extreme since DBZA exists for the purpose of parody, but the idea remains that the only credible sources to draw conclusions from are Toei's anime and Viz's manga. Storm talk – projects 00:05, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Everything I said before pretty much says it all. It's just that none of us care about what the other is trying to say. And why are you even dragging the Abridged series into this?

Hyper Zergling, we're listening to what you have to say, but none of it seems to overcome the evidence in the series that implies Gohan was the stronger fighter. If you'll watch that clip and read the included manga scans, I think you'll agree that the evidence is pretty compelling. I'll admit I'm having a difficult time believing that you did look over the material, as you claim that Vegeta wasn't there when Goku made that statement, but he can be seen quite plainly as the person Goku was talking to...

In both the anime and manga, Gohan was clearly stronger than Super Buu, and Goku was utterly convinced that both he and Vegeta would be no match for that same form of Buu. As stated in the article, this strongly implies that Gohan was stronger than Goku. Is there anything in the series that so concisely counters this or can we call the matter closed? --

talk contr

09:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

But you're not reading what I'm saying. It's the way humans are in an argument. Otherwise, it would make sense to you. What I said probably makes more sense than what you said. OF course I read the manga, although I never watched the anime. If you're referring to when Vegeta just came, then of course they would lose. Super Buu absorbed Gohan, and that is even stronger than Ultimate Gohan. If you were referring to when they were inside Buu, then you pointed something wrong; Goku did go SSJ2. Use your head, dammit. Hyper Zergling 15:51, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

There's no need to get testy. I was referring to the point when Goku and Vegeta were inside of Buu (after severing him from his captured Z Fighters). Goku is thoroughly convinced that without fusion, he and Vegeta are still no match for this form of Buu, (which Gohan completely dominated several episodes/chapters before). And Goku was in his base form at the time. This happened in both the anime and the manga. I've read everything you've written, but I'm a bit slow. Perhaps you could reiterate for me where this reasoning is flawed? --

talk contr

12:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Goku was normal when he made that statement, but then he went SSJ2 along with Vegeta when Super Buu popped out. Besides, SSJ3 has a time limit, and obviously wouldn't be enough to eliminate Super Buu (time wise). Hyper Zergling 05:33, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

So it sounds as if we are in agreement that Goku was no match for Super Buu, who Gohan toyed with. --

talk contr

10:37, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Of course not. SSJ3 Goku could've done the same. Super Buu wasn't that much stronger than fat Buu in the beginning. If you scroll up, I gave the URL to the page where Piccolo states that Super Buu is only more evil. Besides, SSJ3 has a time limit, so of course Goku wouldn't go SSJ3. Hyper Zergling 13:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Your own link will tell you that he was more evil, and his body's become better for fighting too. Piccolo also noted a change in Majin Buu's ki, though he didn't specify whether it was small as you claim, or significant. Even if Goku could have defeated the fat Majin Buu (he was still uncertain of this), who are we to say whether Super Buu's strength had surpassed Goku's or not? Goku himself stated that he (along with Vegeta, no less) would be killed if he fought Super Buu. So, we have your speculation that Super Buu was weaker than Goku, verses Goku's own statement in both the anime and manga that he, (along with Vegeta, no less), was no match for Super Buu. Which one carries more weight? --

talk contr

10:59, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

But of course, there's always the powering up. Scroll up to see what I mean, or just figure it out. It's the same statement I've been saying all the time. Hyper Zergling 05:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

If you're referring to Goku's powering up to SS3 being felt in Other World, that was also explained on the link I provided. Gohan's increase in power in Other World was also felt on Earth by Super Buu. --

talk contr

07:24, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

No it wasn't. Not until Gohan was teleported to Earth. Hyper Zergling 16:42, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Please review the material I linked to previously.

Super Buu (to Gohan): "I thought so. It was you." ... "Far away, very far away, I felt a strong power grow."

--

talk contr

08:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Why didn't Gotenks or Piccolo ffel it? Besides, it didn't occur to Buu as that important until he actually got beaten up. Gohan was freaking out when Goku went SSJ3. Hyper Zergling 17:42, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

A villain being arrogant about his ability to deal with a stronger opponent is nothing new. (As I recall, Fat Buu wasn't exactly shaking in his boots when he was first confronted with SS3 Goku, either.) What does Piccolo and Gotenks' awareness of Gohan have to do with anything? It's not as though they were in Other World when Goku went SS3 and sensed that, so there doesn't seem to be any comparison we can draw. --

talk contr

12:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Exactly my point of why we shouldn't post "the original manga implied." We don't know who's stronger. Hyper Zergling 13:08, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

What? I was saying that there is no comparison to be drawn from Piccolo and Gotenks' inability to detect Gohan's energy from Other World. That doesn't nullify all the other evidence that points to Gohan as the stronger fighter... --

talk contr

13:16, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you even see the poll I made?http://forums.mangafox.com/showthread.php?t=35197 And besides, Akira Toriyama would have had Goahn fight Kid Buu in the end rather than Goku. Hyper Zergling 02:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Polls mean absolutely nothing, this is an encyclopedia, not a fansite where votes masquerade as facts. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) ^(talk) Feb 25, 2009 _@ 03:05 ^(UTC)

But aren't the rest of them doing the same? Except they're only not using other "fan-based" sources, but their own knowledge. It's still fan-based material. Hyper Zergling 04:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Knowledge: Familiarity, awareness, or understanding gained through experience or study.

Opinion: A belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof.

They are not the same.

Here is my logic:

1. If A > B and B > C, then we can conclude that A > C.
2. Goku stated that he (even when fighting alongside Vegeta) would be no match for Super Buu. This establishes with reasonable certainty that Super Buu > SS3 Goku (and even SS3 Goku + SS2 Vegeta).
3. Gohan dominated Super Buu, who was finally forced to self-destruct, hide, and absorb Gotenks and Piccolo in order to beat him. This establishes with reasonable certainty that Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu.

Together, these premises establish with reasonable certainty that Ultimate Gohan > Super Buu and Super Buu > SS3 Goku, and by extension, Ultimate Gohan > SS3 Goku. If any part of my logic is faulty, by all means say so. Otherwise, I think we're finished here. --

talk contr

07:14, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Yet, there's no stating of who's actually stronger. And Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu, although that really has nothing to do with what were saying; he was playing with Goku. Hyper Zergling 13:12, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

For the guy above me, Super Buu was the strongest but Kid Buu was the most dangerous. For the whole Gohan/SS3 Goku debate, Ultimate Gohan was stronger even Goku stated that fact himself. I even believe that Gotenks was stronger than Goku. --LocC 09 19:51, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

@Hyper Zergling: There's no stating that Super Buu w/Gohan was stronger than Master Roshi, but I think if the occasion called for it, it would be acceptable to make that assumption in an article. Kid Buu can be discussed on Talk:Kid Buu. The evidence in the anime and manga implies that Gohan is the stronger of the two, and that's what the article says. If you or anyone else finds fault in the logical premises used to establish that Ultimate Gohan's strength exceeded SS3 Goku's, I'm all ears. Until then, I'm done debating the matter. --

talk contr

12:39, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Assumption=Opinion Hyper Zergling 13:12, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

In some cases, yes, but in this context I was referring to something that is taken for granted. --

talk contr

07:45, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Saikyo no Gohan (Ultimate Gohan, Mystic Gohan, Chou Gohan, whatever) was owning Super Buu. Goku said he couldn't beat Super Buu even with Vegeta. I think it's obvious who's stronger. SSJ3 Goku is equal to Kid Buu.

It's true that SS3 Goku was fighting Kid Buu. That seems to be one of the main arguments. But tell me, was he winning. NO, he was holding his own, he also believed that without the fusion he wouldn't be able to beat super buu. So clearly he though Super Gotenks buu was to powerful for a SS3. We also never saw Gohan's full strength, so we can hardly know how hard he can fight when he really gets serious. So in closing, while it seems SS3 Goku is stronger due to teh Herudigarn and Kid Buu thing, we can't know for sure, as Gohan only toyed with Buu, not going full power. I rest my case --User:Elementite 6:15, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

---

When I was looking around, I saw this link; http://www.myfavoritegames.com/dbz/power-levels(new).htm. On this page it states that while Goku is fighting Kid Buu his power level is 720,000,000 whereas Gohan's is 5,200,000,000.

[edit] About Gohan's age...

How was he "biologically" 11? He's 4 when he is in the beginning of DBZ (He says four, and he holds up Four fingers.). The saiyans (Vegeta and Nappa) arrive early, so he's either 4 or 5. Namek passes, and it's less than a year. He's either 5 or 6. Then 3 years pass for the androids, so he's 8 or 9. He goes in the Room of Spirit and Time (Hyperbolic Time Chamber) for 18 hours (outside of the room). So he's 9 or 10. Not to mention, it says "Gohan is now 16 years old. Where Gohan lives, there are no schools, so until now he's been learning and tutored at home. However..." This was referring to 7 years after the Cell saga.

You forgot the year between the gang's return from Namek and Goku's return to Earth. IIRC, wasn't he 4-1/2 at the beginning of DBZ, as well? --

talk contr

03:36, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

So if he was 4 1/2, then he's 5 when the saiyans arrive. The saiyans arrived in about 158 days. Namek goes for 260 days, and then 1 year for Goku to come back. So he's at least 6 years and 260 days old. Androids appear 3 years later, and he's 9 years old and 260 days. He goes inside the Hyperbolic time chamber for 18 hours (9 months inside, I think?), so he's 10 years and some random number of days. The birthday in the time between the Cell games is filler. 7 years later, he's 16, which means his birthday hasn't passed yet. --XOmega 12:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

But in the Episode "Memories of gohan" states that he was turning 11 and in the Manga Piccolo says that he is 10.

gohanRULEZ 16:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Where exactly is Piccolo's statement? (Important to note, since this was very close to the time Gohan visited the chamber.) I know there wasn't a Garlic Jr. Saga in the manga, but I figured it still included the year time gap in which it occurred. If that's not the case, we may have to note the overall discrepancy in several places... --

talk contr

08:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate Gohan vs SSJ3 Goku

Ultimate Gohan is stronger, but Full Power SSJ3 Goku is stronger than Full Power Ultimate Gohan (Which probably isn't a difference as Gohan's power is already at his max). However, there is no concrete evidence to support either side.

How do we know all that? --

talk contr

10:34, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

If we are talking strictly power levels, Full Power SSJ3 Goku is stronger; but Ultimate Gohan's power level is greater than normal SSJ3 Goku. There are 2 quotes after Vegeta breaks the Potara. Vegeta says "Besides, I'd prefer this then that damn fusion. We don't even need these right?". Then Goku says " We don't know that for sure until he returns to normal!". This implies 2 things: 1)Goku and Vegeta don't know for sure if they need it against Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed), implying that Goku can beat him and 2)They don't need the Potara against normal Super Buu. Of course, Goku after a few more panels says Super Buu is still stronger than either of them. But then again, he said the same thing about Fat Buu in which he said he couldn't beat him and another in which he said that he could. But that's Buu, not Gohan. But the aforementioned quote implies that Goku is stronger than Super Buu Gohan Absorbed, who in turn is stronger than Ultimate Gohan —This unsigned comment was made by 66.44.124.193 (talk • contribs) on 21:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC).

This assertion is ridiculous. Goku never stated that or even remotely implicated that he could defeat Gohan-Absorbed Super Buu on his own, even at his full power(he returned to Earth with a fully rejuvenated body). The only two incarnations of Buu that he felt confident in defeating were Fat Buu and Kid Buu(both of whom he stated that he could've defeated at his full power). He confessed to his Fat Buu confrontation agai n on the Planet of Kai. With Fat Buu, he claimed that he lied about his chances since he felt that the new generation of Saiyans should be the defenders of the Earth. While with Super Buu, he was certain that they would die without the use of Fusion. It is plainly stated Super Buu could kill them both, which unambiguously indicates superiority. So, yes, it is indeed fact that Super Buu (unfused) is stronger than Goku, and to rely heavily on an opinion based upon one comment which you grossly misinterpret and distort the original context of the dialogue into something else in order to support your argument is nothing short of fanfiction.

So, please do not warp context with your insubstantial supposition in order to favor your bias. This isn't what Wikia is for. While it is indeed not 100% reliable, it still abides by the guildelines to only input facts and verification; not baseless speculation. And what is verified is that Goku has admitted to being weaker than Super Buu, an incarnation that Gohan toyed with handily. Logically, this would conclude that Gohan is stronger than a fully powered SSJ3 Goku. Also, you can't make any concrete conjecture of knowing the full extent of Gohan's strength since we only see him fight seriously only after he's grossly outmatched by Buutenks(a form that battered Goku within minutes in the anime while Gohan lasted substantially longer). Also, Akira Toriyama already established officially that Gohan is the strongest unfused warrior in DBZ, so this shouldn't even be debated any further(I believe it has been cited from articules of Daizenshuu, featuring input from Toriyama).

And if I understand the deeper meaning of what you mean by Full Power, then this argument is rendered moot and impractical by Wikia standards in general since Goku never mastered his SSJ3 like he did SSJ1 and SSJ2. Again, you're basing your entire opinion on one statement, and dissecting and warping it

Ryu Heishin 22:11, 6 April 2009 (UTC)Ryu Heishin

Look, it's my opinion decided on what I infer about the manga. Wikipedia and any other wiki is unreliable as it practically changes all the time. Fact is, Goku said the quote and if anybody refuses to recognize it, it just makes them ignorant. I maybe wrong but you can't dismiss the fact that Goku said that. And I'm not calling anybody out, but Toriyama never admitted that in ANY interview. That Toriyama said that is a lie.

Also, Goku did want Gotenks and Gohan to be the new gen of protectors, I agree, but he didn't use that to lie about not being able to beat Buu. He was talking to Piccolo when he said that. And it's not FACT that Super Buu is stronger than Goku.

Don't get me wrong though, the manga implies Gohan as stronger, no doubt. —This unsigned comment was made by 66.44.124.193 (talk • contribs) on 23:02, 6 April 2009 (UTC).

I'm incredibly ready for bed right now, so this is going to be short, but here are my thoughts on your quote:

Quote: There are 2 quotes after Vegeta breaks the Potara. Vegeta says "Besides, I'd prefer this then that damn fusion. We don't even need these right?". Then Goku says " We don't know that for sure until he returns to normal!". This implies 2 things: 1)Goku and Vegeta don't know for sure if they need it against Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed), implying that Goku can beat him and 2)They don't need the Potara against normal Super Buu.

The quote simply implies that they won't know whether they can beat Super Buu until they remove the Z-Fighters from him. (Then, after seeing plain Super Buu's power, they are convinced that they are no match for him.) If anything, this would confirm that they know they are absolutely no match for Super Buu+Gohan without fusion. --

talk contr

09:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes that maybe true. Goku and Vegeta probably can't beat Super Gohan Buu, but the quote sure as hell implies that they can beat normal Super Buu.

They don't know for sure they will need it against Super Buu Gohan, but the quote implies it. I agree with whoever wrote this though I'm 50/50 on whether Super Buu w/ Gohan is the strongest villain in DBZ.

I don't see how that quote implies that they can defeat Super Buu (without anyone absorbed). In the quote, Goku specifically stated that they didn't know whether they would be able to defeat Super Buu until they severed him from his absorbees. Then, when they do remove his captured Z Fighters, they realize they are still no match for Super Buu and say, "Wait! He's still stronger than either of us! He'll kill us if we go out like this!!" --

talk contr

10:03, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The quote definetly implies that Goku is stronger than Super Buu. The quote says they don't need Potara against Super Buu menaing that Goku is stronger than Super Buu. We don't know for sure means that they are 50/50 on whether to use it against Super Buu Gohan again. THey don't know if they should use or not use it. Simple as that —This unsigned comment was made by 66.44.124.193 (talk • contribs) on 19:06, 19 April 2009 (UTC).

The quote doesn't say that they don't need Potara fusion against Super Buu at all. It says that they won't know for sure whether or not they need it until Buu reverts. (Remember, neither Goku nor Vegeta had actually come face-to-face with Super Buu sans absorbees at that point, so Goku was understandably concerned that they should gauge Super Buu's strength before they destroyed the earrings. It was later revealed that his concern was justified when they removed Buu's captured Z Fighters and realized that they were still no match for him.) --

talk contr

08:43, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

It most certainly does. They don't need it after he returns to normal.The quote syas that, simple —This unsigned comment was made by 66.44.124.193 (talk • contribs) on 20:28, 23 April 2009 (UTC).

This isn't that complicated... Here is your quote:

Vegeta: "Besides, I'd prefer this then that damn fusion. We don't even need these right?"

Goku: "We don't know that for sure until he returns to normal!"

Let's break it down... Vegeta says they don't need the earrings. Goku's says that they won't know whether that's true until Super Buu is separated from his absorbees. When Super Buu did return to normal, they were able to determine whether or not they could defeat him without the earrings — and they couldn't, by their own admission. I don't see what other logical conclusion can be drawn from the material available. --

talk contr

06:31, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

It isn't that complicated.Goku says he can beat him by himself against normal and probably can against Gohan Buu

Both the manga and anime imply that Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. As for the quote, Goku clearly states they wont even know if they could defeat Buu or not until they see how strong he is once they free the others, its not that hard to understand.

K I have proof that Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Now, we know that Goku could have beat Fat Buu if he went SSJ3, we also know that SSJ3 Gotenks was roughly a little stronger than Super Buu, and Gohan was toying with Super Buu the whole fight. Ergo Gohan beats Goku.--Elementite 22:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, Goku says he can beat Super Buu and Kid Buu, who is stronger than Kid Buu. Case closed, Goku is stronger

Are you.... Goku never said that he could beat Super Buu. Infact, he said the exact opposite. He said that with Vegeta, they'll be killed. Of course that means he can beat Super Buu! And... Kid Buu is equal to Kid Buu because he IS Kid Buu. Now case closed, Chou Gohan > Super Buu > SSJ3 Goku >=< Kid BuuxOmega 16:55, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

In the English manga he didn't. In the Japanese, he did

Tell me what translation you're using, because that sounds completely off. Goku was scared as ever to see Super Buu appear inside his own head, AND he had Vegeta with him. If Goku said he could take Super Buu, they simply would have blasted out and punched him, not stay inside and consider their options. SpeedBurner 04:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm using the original manga produced by Bird Studios. In that, he was nervous too, but not as far as to say he's stronger than them. All he said was that he wasn't sure if he can sustain his energy (which obviously means SSJ3, as Goku can't possibly hope to beat Super Buu as a SSJ or SSJ2).ong enough to beat him. Also with Vegeta, Vegeta said that they don't need the Potara to beat him —This unsigned comment was made by 141.236.46.95 (talk • contribs) on 18:50, 23 July 2009 (UTC).

According to the English renditions of both the anime and manga: Vegeta claimed that they didn't need the earrings, but Goku was unsure whether or not this was true. Later, when Buu was detached from his absorbees, Goku stated that they were still no match for him.

If both of these translations (which have scans/clips linked above) are incorrect, it might help to see scans/clips of the Japanese originals to see what was really said. In the interest of those here who aren't fluent in Japanese (myself included) it might also be helpful if whoever posts them could also provide a transcription of the Japanese text so we can easily translate it for ourselves using a dictionary or online translator. --

talk contr

07:15, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm not able to find the raw Japanese scans online, but I'll keep looking. In the meanwhile, let's go over what we know. I'll try to use actual events instead of what a character said.

1) Goku required fusion with Gohan in order to defeat Gotenks absorbed Buu.

2) Goku ABSOLUTELY required fusion with someone powerful to defeat Gohan absorbed Buu. To say that Goku could defeat Buuhan is absolutely ludicrous, considering he was willing to try Potara fusion with Mr. Satan. Goku had tapped SSj3 for a very brief moment, but there's no way that was enough to severely weaken his full power state.

3) Upon arrival inside Buu, Goku was uncertain at Vegeta's statement that they could carry on without fusion, for a couple of reasons. One was whether or not they could even undo Buu's absorptions, and another was because neither had a good grasp of base Super Buu's power.

4) After removing Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo, Vegeta's ready to blow a hole out. Goku tells him not to. As translations are sketchy right now, I won't say that Goku stated they'd be killed. However, Goku's mere act of stopping Vegeta is a large implication in its own right. I will say that the later panels have Goku suggesting the fusion dance to Vegeta, another implication.

5) Once Super Buu appears inside, both power up to Super Saiyan. Rather than attacking head-on, Goku tries to blow a huge hole in Buu's head, which doesn't work. Again, instead of resorting to actual combat, Vegeta threatens to remove Fat Buu from his pod. If the Saiyans COULD have defeated Super Buu, I don't see why they wouldn't have just rushed him. SpeedBurner 01:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

According to Bird Studio, Goku is stronger as Kid Buu is the strongest form of Buu. Ask the admins here, they'll say the same—This unsigned comment was made by SaiyanZ (talk • contribs) on 05:31, 23 August 2009 (UTC).

Considering that both admins who have actively participated in this discussion have said the opposite (not to mention the actual DB manga itself, which is the ultimate authority in this discussion), I'd say you're in error. --

talk contr

09:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that you are making no effort to counter our arguments, merely avoiding them. Please, take the time to read what we have written. I have posted the original Japanese manga scan of Goku's quote, as well as the romaji, lower down in this discussion page. From what I could translate, it's clear Goku was saying what he said in the ViZ translation, which is likely more accurate than mine. This nulls most of your points about the Japanese manga lacking Goku's lines.

Also, just because an admin backs up an idea does not automatically make it correct. The original source outdoes the personal opinion of everyone here, no matter how high they stand in the Wiki's hierarchy. If you have something from Bird Studio that does specifically state what you said, please post it up for us to see. SpeedBurner 01:20, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

SSJ2AJB Alright, SaiyanZ, I’ve had enough of this crap. It’s time for this to stop already, so here are some things that prove that Gohan is stronger.

1. Ultimate Gohan completely dominated Super Buu until their fight was interrupted by Super Buu’s self-destruction.
2. Goku said that Gotenks in his Super Saiyan 3 form reached a level Goku couldn’t compete near the end of DBZ Episode 245.
3. Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks was fighting a roughly even battle with Super Buu.
4. Goku said that he and Vegeta would be easily defeated by Super Buu unless they used fusion. Goku also stated that they were still no match for Super Buu even after his absorbees were detached from his body.
5. Ultimate Gohan was strong enough to match Super Buu after Gotenks and Piccolo were absorbed blow for blow, but was outmatched after Super Buu used Piccolo's wisdom to play mind tricks against him.

1. Akira Toriyama stated that Gohan, after having his latent hidden power released, became the second strongest Z-Fighter (behind Vegito) and the strongest character in the manga to be unaided by fusion or absorption in the second Daizenshuu on page 114.

Alright, that’s my proof that shows that Gohan is stronger, but you kept reverting the revisions that said Gohan is stronger than SSJ3 Goku. I have also noticed that you’ve had a few sockpuppets, 141.236.46.95 and 66.44.124.193 whose contributions I’ve observed, show that they have always reverted to the revisions that you wanted. According to the handling disputes and abuse section in Dragon Ball Wiki: About, you should be blocked for having sock puppets to aid you in your purpose.

Look, SSJ2AJB, im not your enemy, but the original manga by Bird Studio, has actual quotes that say Goku is stronger than Gohan. Goku and Kibito Kai say Kid Buu is the strongest form of the Majin Buu entity. For your proof up there: 1)I agree with you on all fronts 2)You are using the anime? Come on really? Even in that episode, I don't recall him saying anything like that, the most I remember him saying was that the two boys had reached it at such a young age 3)I agree with you again 4)He only said that in the English manga by Viz Media, mate. In Bird Studio, he says "I don't know if I have the time to sustain SSJ3 for so long! That's why we should use fusion!" 5)Pfft, Super Buu w/ Gotenks and Piccolo was flat out stronger than Ultimate Gohan. Wisdom was used in the fight, I agree, but the key word is that he "initially" matched him blow for blow. 6)I don't remember seeing any kind of AT statement like that in either the Jap or Eng Daizenshuu on Pg. 114 Sorry for being so rash and not looking at this discussion page too often. I don't know how to upload scans, so sorry about that. Nonoitall, my bad about the admin part, I only said that because PrinceZarbon agreed with me. SSJ2AJB, then can we come to a compromise saying the differences in the Japanese and English manga? --SaiyanZ 05:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

In addition, you can look at my user page to see that I have posted a paragraph about this. I do take responsibility for not reading the discussion page though. --SaiyanZ 05:36, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Read the "info site faq part 3" thing. He says FPSSJ3 Goku is the strongest, though it really is Vegito. He's forgetting about the quote by Old Kai in which he said that Vegito would take Kid Buu no prob. http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?s=a2f80ae0dc22586c3b9408e58f62c23d&t=490636&page=3 --SaiyanZ 06:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not certain what you're trying to prove with that link. The original Japanese dialog between Goku and Vegeta inside Buu has already been provided (see below) with a direct translation, and it suggests that the English manga and anime were both true to the original when Goku stated that he and Vegeta were no match for Super Buu (the same form that Gohan toyed with). I've also heard from several different sources that Gohan's status as the strongest character unaided by fusion/absorption is verified in the Daizenshuu, though I admittedly can't confirm this first-hand (unless someone would care to provide a link to the page in question?). If the translation below is faulty as you suggest, by all means show us where. --

talk contr

09:09, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

WIth that link, an interview in the Daizenshuu supports Goku as the stronger one. BUt also, it provides a key thing, saying its down to personal preference. Also, I need to see that interview as well, as I have never read the actual interview in which AT said Gohan was stronger, nor have I seen it in any uploaded ones as well. Now that I see the romaji, this isn't what he said in the B. Studio manga. What he said was "I don't know if I can sustain SSJ3 long enough for me to beat him! That's why we have to use fusion!". Vegeta then screams "Well it looks like that's not an option, right?". Goku then gives a look in which he says "This is what happens when you don't listen to me, and break the Potara.....". I think I remember seeing a scan in which Kibito Kai said Kid Buu was stronger, I'll see if I can find that. Also, I would now like to change my position and say there is evidence supporting both as strong, its just down to personal preference. SSJ2AJB, can we state the info in the English manga that supports Gohan as stronger, is not present in the original manga? --SaiyanZ 16:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

All I saw in that link was a bunch of archived text from a closed down DB fan site. This wiki is dedicated to covering information from official DB media, and fan speculation doesn't count as that. Your translation of Goku's statement is quite different from the literal one seen below. If the one below is inaccurate, please indicate where. --

talk contr

03:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes it is official, considering it was the Daizenshuu translated. The whole thing is wrong, that statement was never made in Bird Studio. The mistake is that Goku never said anything like that. I'm still looking for that scan though, I'll show you then. --SaiyanZ 07:52, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, now I'm not trying to prove Goku as stronger, I'm just trying to present some info that supports him as stronger. I think there are way too many contradictions in DBZ now, considering Goku doesn't want to fight Super Buu but later says Kid Buu is stronger than his previous forms, a claim which both Kibito Kai and Vegeta back up. All I was trying to do in the edit was erase the original manga part. But now, I don't see much point as I know now it falls to personal preference anyways. Still looking for those scans. --SaiyanZ 08:10, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

The text archived in the link you provided doesn't appear to come from an authoritative source. It specifically says on that thread that it is a FAQ from an old fan site that got closed down. At one point one of the answers on the thread even states, The fact that Rou Kaioushin says SSJ6 may be a mis-translation. He might be saying, "As powerful as six Super Saiya-jin". Clearly not Toriyama grade authenticity, as someone in that position would most certainly know whether the original manga said "six Super Saiyans" or "Super Saiyan 6" and would not need to speculate about it.

We already have a scan of Goku's statement from the original manga below. As I said before, if the literal translation provided with it is inaccurate, by all means show us where. The original manga is the highest level of canonicity that can be achieved here, and if the meaning of the panel cited below is as plain as it appears, there's really no more to say.

Kid Buu is a topic for another talk page, but just to clarify the issue: The misconception that Kid Buu was Buu's strongest form finds its support in the English anime (and perhaps other translations as well?). In the manga, the absorption of the Kais was said to "calm" Buu — not "weaken" him as the English anime stated. This, coupled with Goku's confidence that Gohan and Gotenks could beat Kid Buu makes it plain that Kid Buu's raw power was not what made him Buu's most dangerous form — it was his volatility. --

talk contr

11:00, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

No that link was the Daizenshuu translated, that's why there are so many pages in that thread alone, mate. OK, never mind about the panel, its the real thing. I was looking at apparently a KOREAN dub for the manga instead of the Japanese one lol. Ok, however, I'm still looking for those 2 panels in which Goku, Vegeta, and Kibito Kai all say Kid Buu is his strongest form. In that panel Goku also says he could've beaten Fat Buu and Super Buu. Also, there is another panel in which Vegeta says Gohan and Gotenks would NOT stand a chance against Kid Buu. If you know which panel I'm talking about, Goku later goes on to say "Hmmmmm, you have a point there, I just thought they could help us". If you can help me, please look for these scans with me as well. For those panels, I am SURE that they are Japanese dubs from Bird Studio. Also, this is just a note, please remember the many contradictions in DBZ before we all come to a conclusion --SaiyanZ 19:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, Toriyama himself has stated that if people came to him and asked him these questions, he wouldn't have any answer. Now I'm fully convinced that it falls down to personal preference. --SaiyanZ 19:07, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

You'll have to forgive me — I don't see anything on that link that indicates what authorized guide which statements come from, if they do come from an authorized guide. In fact, in that very thread that you linked, the users later acknowledge that the quoted comparison of Gohan, SS3 Goku and Gotenks was flawed, as well as the comparison of Buu's forms.

Fan forum threads are not going to resolve this discussion. We already have the panel from the original manga with Goku's statement. If it's mistranslated, indicate where. If not, the discussion is over unless you can provide something of either equal or greater canonicity that says otherwise. Bare in mind that much of the confusion and contradiction you see is no doubt the result of the many (mis)translations of the original material. From what I've seen, the original manga is actually quite consistent, and supplies enough evidence to draw a decent comparison of many characters' strengths. --

talk contr

21:56, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I mean, if you feel that the original manga is consistent, I don't have a problem. It's just that a lot of my peers feel that there are too many contradicitons in the manga anyways, plus even Toriyama said the same thing. Also, the first page in that thread says that it is Daizenshuu #7 translated. I'll find those scans, I remember some of them being shown on the myfavoritegames.com forums. It's just the Buu saga that pisses me off, its like a jumbled collection of nonsense piled up into something, logic-wise. No ill will towards each other, right man? --SaiyanZ 01:31, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely no ill will. I appreciate your equanimity during this discussion. As I look at the linked thread now, I'm still unable to find any indication that the statements are a translation of the Daizenshuu. (Searching the first page, which you suggested made that statement, turns up no results for the word "Daizenshuu". The thread topic mentions "data books", but it's unclear which books correspond to which statements, or even if they are direct translations or merely observations of the webmaster who owned the books. The author's apparent unfamiliarity with the wording of the original manga seems to imply the latter.)

Since no one has taken issue with the manga scan/translation provided below, that is authority at this time. As always, if you or anyone else brings forth another source of equal or greater canonicity than the original manga (though I doubt anything other than the original manga itself would qualify) that contradicts this, there's no reason we can't reexamine the situation. Until then, it's my sincere hope that we call the matter closed. --

talk contr

07:57, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok cool. Yeah, I consider the argument in your favor until I produce those scans. I'll find them, but for now the matter is closed --SaiyanZ 18:32, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gohan in Dragon Ball Evolution?

Havin' watched DBE, I noticed that Goku shared quite a many similarities with Gohan. Aside from tamer hair and goin' to school, he also shows a similar attitude to him as well. Even the Oozaru bein' the disciple of Piccolo is identical to Gohan bein' Piccolo's as well.

I mean, maybe it's just me but, the personality with Goku in that movie, I'd speculate that's how he'd actually turn out had he'd been in school since his sons share similar traits. I know GT is non-canon but he seems to be quite like Gohan when he was in school too. Just a thought.

The highschool of Gohan is canon. It was in Dragon Ball Z. --XOmega 12:48 5 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate Gohan has a time limit?

Goku asked Elder Kai about Gohan's latent power still were in him, where Elder Kai answered: "Beats me." Does that means that the "Ultimate"-state is limited?

Your questions is confusing, and how would that imply there would be a time limit???

[edit] Gohan's height

Was gohan in the cell saga the same height as goku jr. And was his height in the frieza saga the same height as goten's.

No: Why do you want to know?!?!?!But in all things there must be balance. Without Evil there is no need for good. So ... from now on i pledge to be SO EVIL the rest of you pansies can all be good without disrupting that balance. 12:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

SSJ2AJB Hey, Vegerot, ever heard of calming down? He was just asking a simple question. You don't have to respond in a such a rude and unrelated way. Just learn how to cool your behavior like most users here do.

[edit] Origin of the Great Saiyaman

The Great Saiyaman seems to be a reference to a movie poster shown in Dr. Slump.

http://www.mangafox.com/manga/dr_slump/v01/c002/7.html

- User:Slayer25769

[edit] Quote Change

Hey, does any one have any qualms about changing the quote? I think this one was cooler / more quote worthy: "Fight you? No, I want to kill you." (To Super Buu) SpeedBurner 23:50, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

No objections here. :-) --

talk contr

09:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Welp, someone else did. Oh well. SpeedBurner 03:28, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Kidnappee

How many times Has He been Kidnapped/Held Hostage? There was the times with Raditz,Garlic JR, Piccolo, Turles (Any others?) --Team Midgars Silver Sinspawn 06:54, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gohan vs Goku: The Raw Panel

Managed to finally find it. In the ViZ translation (and several other amateur translations), this is the panel that has Goku saying to Vegeta that Super Buu will slaughter them. I have found it in its raw Japanese form, and will be providing Romaji so it'll be easier for most of you to translate.

First, the actual image:

And the Romaji. I'll use caps for Katakana:

mateyo! ikuya BUUga zuibun motonimodotsutatsute itsutemo soredemo OREtachiniha totemo kanarenai tsuyosanandazo!

konomama sotoni detara zetsutaini yararechimau...!!

Feel free to translate, or correct if you've noticed I made a mistake. I'll stick up my attempt at changing it to English later. SpeedBurner 17:02, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Scratch later, here's my attempt. My Japanese isn't good by any means, but here it is:

"Wait! Even if Buu's reconstitution dramatically weakened him, by no means can we match his strength! As it is now, if we exit outside, he'll completely destroy us!"

I fudged a lot of the first half of the first sentence to make sense. There were words I couldn't translate...ikuya has several meanings which I couldn't choose from. Most notably was to have an orgasm (>_>). motonimodo means reconstitute, however, I have no idea if tsutatsute is part of a conjugation or another word entirely. itsutemo also gave me trouble. It's possible Goku was saying Buu dropped five-fold in power, but I can't be sure.

However, there were key words I am sure I got right. OREtachi is we, totemo is "by no means" or "simply cannot" when it is before a negative, kana is to match and nai indicates a negative, tsuyosa is strength or power, nandazo is assuredly. Since Goku went out of his way to say totemo, he's likely including SSj3 in this statement.

In the second speech bubble, the last word's the most important. yarare means to suffer damage, and chimau is completely or totally. I wasn't able to translate zetsutaini, though. Who knows though, maybe that completely changes the sentence's meaning.

If anyone has a better translation to offer, please provide. SpeedBurner 17:46, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to do that SpeedBurner. It doesn't get any more canon than the original Japanese manga, so I'd say that will at least help to finally put this old argument to rest. --

talk contr

09:15, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree! The argument should have been archived since the beginning because Goku states also that Gotenks is stronger than him, so as Gohan is superior to Gotenks, the fact is clear! Gotenks could have been able to face Fat Buu as a SS1, Goku needs SS3, Gohan is superior to even SS3 Gotenks, there's no match, Gohan is way stronger than Goku and he is the second strongest Z Fighter beside Vegetto. The fact that Goku fights the final battle is bacause Gohan was dead at the time and because if too strong characters like Vegetto, Gohan and Gotenks would have fought Kid Buu it would have been a too easy victory. It's strange for Dragon Ball but yes, the last battle in the manga is not fought by the strongest Z Fighter versus the strongest villain. The strongest two are Vegetto and Super Buu + Gohan absorbed, the second strongest are Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu + Gotenks absorbed, the third strongest are Gotenks and Super Buu while Goku and Kid Buu rank only at the fourth strongest. It's fact. User:Goldsaint13/goldsaint13 17:18, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gohan Reached his Limit?

When Gohan becomes Ultimate Gohan the Kai brings out all of his hidden power. Does this mean that Gohan has reached his limit can he not improve his strenght through training anymore? Another thing does he loose the ability to go super sayian or is it that he just fears to use it while in Ultimate form like Goku fears to use Kaioken in SS form? —This unsigned comment was made by 87.23.161.38 (talk • contribs) on 13:49, September 9, 2009 (UTC).

From the Ultimate Gohan section of the article:

It is unknown whether Gohan eventually would have been able to access his Super Saiyan form while in this state, though Gohan was instructed to "do that Super Saiyan thing" to access his new transformation, suggesting that it may have replaced the Super Saiyan forms.

In other words, we can't say for sure. --

talk contr

11:07, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate Gohan Power Increase

If the Super Saiyan state causes one to become 50x as strong as base state and the SS forms after that make the individual even stronger then how much stronger would Gohan's ultimate form make him.

Gohan's Ultimate form is stronger than Super Saiyan 3. This would mean that Ultimate Gohan would have to be like 50(SS) x 100 (as stated in Budokai 3) x 400 (SS3 as mentioned on the Super Saiyan page that SS3 is 4x stronger than SS2) = 2,000,000x stronger (that's just if it were as a SS3 and we all know that he is significantly stronger than SS3 Goku and SS3 Gotanks.) So for the final answer Gohan's power increases over 2,000,000X.—This unsigned comment was made by 87.23.161.38 (talk • contribs) .

The mechanics of power levels aren't documented well enough to draw a reliable conclusion. Even the argument that SS increases a user's base power by 50x is somewhat shaky, and attempting to extrapolate a factor for Ultimate Gohan by multiplying this by other unreliable figures compounds the imprecision. It's not even really safe to assume that someone with a power level of 100 is twice as strong as someone with a power level of 50. All we can conclude is that the former is stronger than the latter.

If you need an example, look at the Babidi Saga. Babidi measured SS Goku's power to be at 3,000 kilis. Dabura also revealed that it would take a person with 300 kilis to destroy a planet. If we were to assume that 3,000 kilis is 10x as strong as 300 kilis, that would mean that SS Goku in the Babidi Saga is (at the most) 10x stronger than base form Vegeta in the Vegeta Saga when he destroyed Arlia. --

talk contr

09:06, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] True Potential

When Gohan transformed to Super Saiyan 2 he became the strongest fighter in the world, we all know this. Then after seven years without training both Vegeta and Goku both surpassed him. Then Gohan gains his Ultimate form and again becomes the strongist for a time. After Kid Buu's defeat he stops training again and again both Vegeta and Goku surpass him.

So my thing is would Gohan be the most powerful being in the galaxy if he had kept up with his training for all those years? And how would the out come of his later fights have differed if he had? --Tripodssj6 13:42, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gohan as the main hero?

When I saw the Cell Games Saga I thought the main hero torch had been passed from Goku to Gohan. I was disappointed to see that wasn't the case. Dose anyone else think Gohan should've remained the focus of the Dragon Ball world? Ztyran 20:55, September 16, 2009 (UTC)

I've heard that Toriyama wanted Gohan to become the main hero, but changed the plot based on his publisher's recommendation. -- .10X.Ka^.me_.ha^.me_.ha^.._.^..talk_.^..._.contrib. 01:42, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Toriyama was planning to end the series with the Cell Games Saga. So maybe Gohan was meant to be the symbolic main hero. When Toriyama later did the Majin Buu arc he had probable intended for Gohan to be the main hero with Goten being a combination of a replacement for Goku and someone that Gohan could pass the torch to. But fans didn't like that Goten was an obvious attempt to bring back the child Goku from Dragonball. This is why he eventually decides to just bring Goku back. --Tripodssj6 11:33, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Gohan's D.O.B

I'm confused. How is it Gohan celebrates his birthday during the 9 days before the Cell Games, which is clearly after May 11, as the Androids appeared on May 12, the day after his birthday?