Good job guys!SaiyanElite 16:00, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
Origins of "Zenkai" in Western Fandom Edit
The other night I did a little deep-dive on where this whole thing started, and it looks like there's a 90% chance it stems from a bit of either completely made-up or badly misinterpreted information published to Dragon Ball Arena in August 2003. I'll leave the relevant Kanzenshuu and Reddit explanations here. I don't interact with this Wiki very much, but I think, as a landing page for many English-speaking fans, this might be somewhat pertinent to include?
Hi, in future when posting on a talk page could you please make sure to post at the bottom, not the top. Anyway on the topic of your research, I think that it would be a great idea to implement this information on the page in some form, explaining the origins of the term "Zenkai", it should probably be placed in the trivia section. Would you like to implement it yourself, or where you providing us with the info so that we would do it ourselves?--Neffyarious (talk) 12:16, March 27, 2017 (UTC)
Oops! Sorry! I assumed new posts would go to the top for visibility, but I guess just looking at the dates here would have cleared that up. As for an edit, I'd be fine either making it myself or having someone else do it, but I wanted to check for a consensus about the best way to incorporate it, especially as it's still unproven and the source in this case is a bunch of information that's currently laid out in two forum/Reddit posts. I'm not sure what the guidelines are on linking to those as evidence. I think a trivia bullet point to the effect of, "Due to the chronology of 'Zenkai Power' appearing in reference to this ability on English-language websites, it is likely it stems from a 2003 update to fansite Dragon Ball Arena. More evidence can be found here [link to posts]" could work, but I didn't want to rush ahead and make that edit. --Cipher Kanzenshuu (talk) 02:03, March 28, 2017 (UTC)
The page Edit
This page has a lot of info, it just needs some more images. But its a very good artikel very good written too!
Good Job guys!SaiyanElite 16:01, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
Vegeta's Power Level Edit
I find it very hard to believe that Vegeta's power level rose to 530,000 right after being beaten to near death by Recoome and then eating a senzu bean. If this was true, Vegeta would have been able to effortlessly kill Krillin, Gohan, all of the Ginyu Force and Goku with one blast. It's hard to imagine Vegeta being amazed at the under-90,000 power level Goku was showing off when fighting Recoome, Jeice and Burter if he was over 5 times stronger than that. Of course, even if we do assume that it was closer to 75,000 (based on the fact that he easily killed Jeice, who was somewhere in the 60,000 range), it still leaves the question of how it magically jumped to 530,000 when fighting First Form Frieza. The only possible explanation I could come to was that this particular Zenkai took a long time to happen, perhaps accelerated by Vegeta resting. Talk about a power nap. 220.127.116.11 01:58, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
- We appreciate your judgements and reasoning but we have to go by the facts. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:04, September 18, 2012 (UTC)
If I recall correctly, Vegeta did say that self-inflicted harm wouldn't cause a zenkai; Yatanograsu's right in my opinion.03:28, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to leave this here: http://i12.mangapanda.com/dragon-ball/270/dragon-ball-69079.jpg
In my version (Viz) of the manga it says "Around and around he goes...working his body and chi almost to death and then refreshing himself by eating the senzu...as the seven beans given to him by Master Karin are already down to three. Whether he realizes it or not, Goku is living and reliving one of the primal cycles of the Saiyans...gaining strength by facing and overcoming death!"
Later, Vegeta says "Beat me to within an inch of my life!!! It won't work if I try to kill myself!!! You have to do it!!!"
Basically, the distinction between Vegeta's situation and Goku's is that Goku was training. The self-harm that he inflicted upon himself was a part of his training, for stamina/endurance/durability/toughness, which is different from Vegeta just blasting himself out of nowhere to be able to heal and be stronger.
To put it another way, Vegeta's method of having Krillin blast was taking direct advantage of the Zenkai ability, by having Krillin nearly kill him, and then being healed by Dende.
Goku was just doing regular training, which anyone, including non-Saiyans can improve from (like how Shaolin monks kicked trees to strengthen their shins). Where the Zenkai ability comes in for Goku is that Goku did that type of training so much that he nearly died. It wasn't the Kamehamehas themselves that nearly killed him, it was his training in general,
- Vegeta wouldn't have been able to beat himself enough to near death in the short time they had before Frieza completed his transformation. That's why he asked Krillin, not because self harming himslef to near death wouldn't have activated the Zenkai. 18:47, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
- Speculation: maybe Vegeta's body's defensive instincts activate when others harm him, like a body naturally fatigued by training is aware of that fatigue, but if he harmed himself then his natural defenses would be down and would not kick in. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:26, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
- In my opinion it's unclear. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 23:26, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
At the moment the page says that Vegeta can see Frieza's Death Beams, could we add that Piccolo can't see the beams meaning that Vegeta has a higher PL than Piccolo who was on par with frieza's second form which had a PL of one million and so Vegeta went from around 530,000 to over a million? Ultra Buugetto (talk) 20:17, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
- Sight does not correlate directly to power level. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:19, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
The name Edit
"Zenkai". Is the Saiyan's ability to become stronger after healing from near death ever actually called Zenkai in any databook or anything of the like? I've never seen it used in the manga, and I don't think a databook has it. Did you lot make the name up or is it actually official?--Mina Țepeș (Enter the Bund) 20:09, May 7, 2015 (UTC)
- Read the article for info like this. The trivia section points out the only time this ability was given an official name, "Zenkai", was in a DBZ anime ending theme song. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:40, May 7, 2015 (UTC)
And it is also used in the Japanese title of episode 46, Gokū pawā Zenkai!! Ginga no Hate made Muikakan.21:04, June 16, 2015 (UTC)
- It was also used in the episode "Gokū Pawā Zenkai!! Buttobe Yakon". Do you see him recovering from near death? No. he was using his full power to blow up Yakon. Apart from this, my issues with this wikia is you talk about non-canon stuff like its canon. Like Future Gohan using the Special Beam Cannon. Lots of anime video game adaptations have non-canon moves or canon moves with non-canon users. Also, movies that Akira had nothing to do with you talk about like it's canon as well despite obvious plot holes in them like Wheelo and Lord Slug movies having Piccolo alive.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:39, December 5, 2015 (UTC)
- Therefor it must be canon and a reliable term. My goodness this is what I was completely ripping you on. Ironically both of the same apologists on the same forum. Stopping any change to this wiki. I'm done with this wiki. You two are the reason that this wiki is a joke. You guys expect me to debate using logic with people who've inserted premise that goes contrary to that. This is an absolute joke. Cmpukesy (talk) 13:18, September 13, 2015 (UTC)
- He was referring to the name. Obviously Saiyans get stronger but there is no canon stuff that confirms the name is Zenkai. You could say he's saying you made up the fact its official name is Zenkai.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:31, December 5, 2015 (UTC)
- Saiyan Recovery spelled like this Saiyan Recovery. To note that its not a real name. There! Cmpukesy (talk) 17:44, December 18, 2015 (UTC)
Goku got one against Beerus in Dragon Ball Super?Edit
Goku seems to have gotten one because he was at near death last episode and before then Goku was a lot weaker then Beerus. However in Episode 12 after recovering they're now even. Goku also said in Episode 11 "I'll show you the true power of a Super Saiyan God". So did Goku get one against Beerus?Teengohanrocks (talk) 15:05, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
- No the Super Saiyan God powers remained with him.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 05:17, February 7, 2016 (UTC)
I suggest a renaming of the pageEdit
Hello, I have a suggestion that I would like the admins to consider.
Renaming the page from "Zenkai" to "Saiyan Power(Zenkai)".
I mean, it has a name in Battle of Z, so why don't we call it, it's more close to official name? Now I have no problem with the name "Zenkai" and I'm sure a lot of people have already gotten used to it. But if it has a somewhat official name, shouldn't we call it that?
I think we should put it to a vote.22:43, March 20, 2016 (UTC)
- Wikis make decisions based on consensus after a civil discussion, not votes. What's popular is not always right. What exactly is it called in Battle of Z, Saiyan Power or Saiyan Power (Zenkai)? -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 23:40, March 21, 2016 (UTC)
- Saiyan Power is obviously an English interpretation of the ability. It's unfortunate they didn't use something more specific, since the Saiyans have a lot of powers. Zenkai is indeed the most common way to refer to this ability, as well as being referenced in both a DBZ and now a DBS episode title. Granted, both episode titles were really just talking about power, not specifically the permanent power boost a Saiyan gets after recovering. I'm leaning toward sticking with Zenkai, since at least it refers to something specific. We need to be able to call this power something specific since it is a repeated major plot point. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 15:27, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, Daizenshuu Vol. 4 titles the subsection that discusses the power "復活する度パワーアップ" ("Power-up upon revival"; though with the way Japanese works, it could just as easily be read as a stand-alone sentence, "They power up when they revive!"). Here's the relevant section. Here's a jisho.org link breaking down the grammar/translation there. It isn't any kind of official name, as Japanese fans don't use one, but I agree with an earlier post on this page that the phrase "Saiyan Recovery" would be a reasonable way of approximating that header and referring to the ability as a whole. You guys can do what you want with it, but I think it's a much better option than either "Zenkai" (which stems from an erroneous bit of information on an old fansite) or drawing from a single reference in a video-game. Cipher Kanzenshuu (talk) 03:13, March 27, 2017 (UTC)
Saiyan Power in Tournament of Power Edit
Saiyan's growth through this ability doesn't just affect their raw might and energy, it also improves their natural efficiency. This was seen from how even when Zarbon still had a slight advantage in strength against Vegeta, Vegeta's performance against the foe noticeably increased, enabling him to outmaneuver Zarbon and defeat him.--Steveo920 (talk) 02:05, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
Yes and I understand that but one, in the first fight against Kale, Goku wasn't even using his full power. As if he was, he would be exausted and beaten up to near death after the encounter in order to get a Zenkai. But no, Goku actually emerged fine and unscathed after the battle, which would mean he wouldn't have one at that moment. And two, for Jiren against Vegeta and Goku it was stated he was using less power than he had during the special. Not to mention, Vegeta was powered up by pride, not from a Zenkai. Pay attention to the talk scenes and fight diologue. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 02:11, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
- Why would Goku hold back against Kale if it meant losing? Especially if when the fate of Universe 7 was on the line. It has been seen before that Saiyans are very resilient. As a child, Goku was unfazed by being slammed though a wall by Giras with a half-hearted "ow" upon emerging. Secondly, I never said Goku was performing better than he did with UIS mode, just that Jiren was amazed at how much better Goku was doing than before. Third, Vegeta's pride-boost came well-after he saw through Jiren's attack patterns.--Steveo920 (talk) 02:19, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
It even says in the original Japanese that he is only using a little more power than ss2 and Vegeta just observed his battle patter because it was used some many times he could see through it.Tyman1102 (talk) 03:29, January 10, 2018 (UTC)Tyman1102
It's because he tests the opponent before he goes all out. Kale just threw him out and Jiren blasted her before he could let out even more power. And even then, neither Goku or Hit was even fazed when Jiren knocked her out, meaning that the Power Impact Jiren launched at that time was weaker than what Goku could already do. Otherwise Goku and Hit would've s*** themselves. One of the writers for that episode even said that Goku was holding back to test her himself. I can show the picture if you would like. And what? You really think Krillin is Super Saiyan Blue level? Because from your logic, I can say that. And about the section that you put in the article that Jiren remarked was amazed that Goku was doing much better than before is unnecessary. And how does Goku as a kid not really getting hurt by Giras fit in this exactly? And the only reason Vegeta saw through Jiren's attacks was because, again, Jiren was suppressing himself. As after Vegeta lands the blow to the stomach, he states this and Jiren uses more power to punch Vegeta away. So why even add it at all? A lot of what you're saying is a bit irrelevant to me. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 03:35, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
- A) Please show me where the writer said that. B) Where did I even bring up Krillin? Of course he would hold back against Krillin because he was a friend and not trying to kill Goku in a berserker rage. C) My point about Goku being launched the a wall as a kid is to point out how resilient Saiyans naturally are. D) Jiren being stronger than Vegeta was my point. Saiyan Power also increases natural reaction, as such, Vegeta instinctively learned to evade Jiren's phantom barrage. I'm not saying that the slightest punch causes Saiyans a great boost of power like Goku Black, just that from each extreme conflict, Goku and Vegeta showed a noticeable improvement.--Steveo920 (talk) 03:47, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
And about Vegeta, he saw it enough times to predict where they were going to strike. Much like how Goku was able to predict Hit's Time-Skip. And while resilience is what comes with Saiyan Power, there are a number of reasons why a Saiyan can be resilient, one reason being a strike does not affect them due to power difference for instance. In order for Saiyan Power to work, the user must literally be injured enough to need medical treatment immediately and what you're saying is speculation. A lot of what you're saying is either not true at all or a maybe. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 04:05, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, Saiyans (with the exception of Goku Black) need to be badly injured to activate Saiyan Power, which happened to Goku because of Jiren. Goku was so battered he could not move until Frieza gave him some energy, which allowed him to gradually recover and get stronger from the experience. As for Vegeta, he only saw Jiren's attack once. Hit's Time-Skip could not be seen, requiring guesswork on Goku.--Steveo920 (talk) 04:16, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
Yeah same for after the two times Goku and Vegeta fought Black and Zamasu. And did they get a Saiyan Power boost? No, they didn't. Vegeta literally had to train in the Time Chamber to get stronger and Goku barely increased in power, and he is now weaker than Vegeta. And as for the "only saw it once" well, Gets is a fighting genius. And where did you get that it was "instinct" from? Even if it was, Gets didn't even get heavily injured in the tournament not ONCE until now. So you can't say that it was Saiyan Power. It might've been something else. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 04:42, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
- The manga version is different from the anime version. In the manga Black needed Zamasu's help to heal, unlike in the anime. Again, Goku DID get heavily injured when fighting Jiren. Enough that he needed Frieza's energy to even get up. As for "instinct" that was the wrong word. What I meant is that after seeing the nature of Jiren's assault, he was able to adapt to it. Fighting genius merely means that they formulate a good counter-plan. Vegeta simply adjusted to a single assault--Steveo920 (talk) 04:51, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
Yes that was why I said TWO TIMES. Since in the anime, there was a second fight that allowed Trunks to unlock his powered up Super Saiyan 2 form. But the point is, again, Goku and Vegeta, even though they were badly beaten by them TWICE, did not even improve the slightest bit and the times they did was through rage. Vegeta even had to resort to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to get stronger and Goku did not really increase his power that much, and again he is weaker than Vegeta now. There is no instance of Saiyan Power at all in the ToP and what you're saying is again speculation because we didn't really see Goku improve, we can't really tell. Jiren was holding back and all the other opponents were taken care of because they were still weaker than him or he had help. Kefla herself is very hard to powerscale, we really don't know how powerful she is. So it is unclear. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 05:13, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
But the anime is DIFFERENT. Goku couldn't stop Kale the first time in her berserk form even with SSB, but later is able to overwhelm both Kale in her perfect TLSS form alongside SS2 Caulifla while Goku was only in SBG. This only happened after he RECOVERED from the injuries he got from Jiren.--Steveo920 (talk) 05:22, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
And I know it is the anime is different but if Goku and Vegeta had Saiyan Power, they would've done better against Black and Zamasu. Again, they are weaker than him and Goku was hollding back, to test Kale. And when Jiren fired the Power Impact, it did not faze Hit or Goku one bit, meaning that the Power Impact of that time was weaker than at least their strongest feats. Goku even says that he's going to let out more power, not his FULL POWER. Face it, Saiyan Power has been irrelevant for Goku and Vegeta since after the Cell Saga. Ever since then, they never really got stronger with a near defeat. Tell me one, ONE example that Saiyan Power was relevant in the Buu, Battle of Gods, Resurrection F, or Universe 6 Sagas. It wasn't. They never once had their power levels boosted up by heavy injuries and was never stated as so. Not even in the databooks. SuperBen 1000000 (talk) 05:42, January 10, 2018 (UTC)
But Goku and Vegeta did do better against Black and Zamasu each time. Black flat out said Vegeta was doing so much better against him in their final confrontation. As for Kale, you really think Goku would have willingly let Kale slam him around like a ragdoll? Jiren's Power Impact DID hurt Goku and Hit. We saw how battered Hit was when he got eliminated. I'm not saying that Saiyan Power is the same game changer as from the Frieza saga for the heroes, just that it is still happening. Look, I don't want to keep arguing about this. I stand by me views that Saiyan Power is still relevant in the series, but I see you are equally standing on your views. Can we please just agree to disagree? It's like the argument on whether or not Goku's SSB form gives him healing powers.--Steveo920 (talk) 05:56, January 10, 2018 (UTC)