This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Super Saiyan article.
|Archive 1||February 25, 2008|
LSSJ strength increases =Edit
I'd just like to say it is a fact thatBroly's strength increases at his Legendary Super Saiyan form as he shows no signs of slowing down in all is fights and is quoted to have said in the 8th movie "My chi is rising" when pulverising the Z fighters. This carried on to the Dragon Ball Z video games. Uglyguy2008 09:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Super Saiyan power. Edit
Does it actually tell us that SSJ is a 50 fold increase in the series, or is this just speculation?
Also, what about the later forms? Can we assume they also are a 50 fold increase each time, or would they be less, like ten times, or something. It never really tells us exactly how much more powerful a SSJ2 is than a SSJ to my knowledge. Dragon Ninja 12:51, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Dragon Ninja
- I think the number was derived from the power level increase reported in one of the Daizenshuu volumes. I'm pretty sure that's where a lot of Frieza and SS Goku's statistics come from on List of Power Levels and if that's the case, then the fifty-fold increase would seem accurate. I think you're right about there being no source for a comparison between an SS and SS2 though. -- 21:10, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
Another time we get an exact level for a transformation is Oozaru. Oozaru are said to be ten times the base power level (So, 5 times less ki than a Super Saiyan). Since Super Saiyans undergo an increase of 50 times according to those power levels, can we infer that the Golden Oozaru from GT (being basically the SS version of Oozaru) is 50 times the power of a regular Oozaru (and 500 times and 10 times base level and Super Saiyan respectively)?
I haven't seen many episodes of GT, but I heard that a Golden Oozaru was fighting with Goku as SS4 (the level that can be achieved from that form) quite evenly. If SS4 isn't much more powerful than Golden Oozaru and Golden Oozaru is ten times the power of a normal form SS1, can we also infer that the increase through the SS levels might be much lower than the increase from normal form to the first SS level, because if G Oozaru is ten times SS and a SS2 was 50 times that, then a SS2 would be 5 times the power of the Golden Oozaru, and it would have been owned very easily by Super Saiyan 4?
However Baby was more powerful then a normal Giant Golden Ape when he transformed.
Here is how I think of it:
SSJ3 x 400
If it increased by a factor of 2, each time, that would make more sense. SS is ten times less than G Oozaru, SS2 is twice level one and five times less than G Oozaru, SS3 is twice level 2 and 2.5 times less than G Oozaru. SS4 would then be 1.25 times less than G Oozaru. Actually, I was googling it and I keep getting results saying that G Oozaru is the strongest in terms of power, but SS4 just uses the power in a controlled form and is the perfect form. Maybe I overdid it but that ties in with the figures. Do you think there's credence, then, to say that each SS level is a double increase in ki of the last? Sorry for the long post. Dragon Ninja 16:51, 26 October 2008 (UTC)Dragon Ninja
- I don't think that much planning really went into the strengths of the transformations. In all honesty, aside from what is specifically stated in the official material, I think it's pretty pointless to try and calculate relative strengths.
- For example, in the beginning of DBZ, Vegeta destroyed the planet Arlia in his base form rather effortlessly. At the time, his power level, as indicated by a scouter, would've been around 18,000, perhaps even less. (Since he was about that strong when he fought Goku in his base form on Earth a few months later.) Later in the series, it was indicated by Dabura that it takes about 300 killis (another unit of power measurement) to destroy a planet, and Babidi explained that (Super Saiyan) Goku had 3,000 killis.
- So, we can figure that Vegeta, with a power level of 18,000 must have had a power level of at least around 300 killis, since he was able to destroy a planet. So, 1 killi would equal, at the very most, about 60 'scouter levels' (possibly less). But, if we apply that measurement to SS Goku, who had 3,000 killis, that would put his power level at 180,000, tops. This is clearly way off, as he would have been well into the millions by the Frieza Saga. Obviously, trying to extrapolate relative strengths, even when using what seems like sound mathematical logic, can be extremely inaccurate. -- 03:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Listen all these are the numbers by which powers are increased by various SSJ levels OVER THE BASE FORM by the END OF DBZ:-
- 1. SSJ1:- 3x
- 2. SSJ2:- 6x (twice of SSJ1)
- 3. SSJ3:- 24x (4x SSJ2)
- The 50x power increase of SSJ was ONLY IN THE FRIEZA SAGA; as the series progressed the power increase was reduced as the form was mastered and the base form's power increased.
- 184.108.40.206 15:16, August 23, 2011 (UTC)
formations and foldsEdit
- Super Saiyan(2,3,4):50x
- Golden Oozaru:20x/100x
Any thing I should list on?
- Like was said, trying to use even official numbers to extrapolate additional power levels is precarious. (Aside from that, I'm not sure there's any official source for increase factors in SS2, SS3, SS4 and Golden Great Ape forms.) -- 22:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
I believe there is now. The Super Exciting Guide (which uses data Toriyama created for the manga) says, or at least a translation of it does, that SSJ2 is twice as strong as SSJ (I presume it means FPSSJ though), and SSJ3 is 4 times that.
Not quite the ridiculous 50 times upon 50 times upon 50 times fold transformation you might suspect.User:Dragon Ninja
Rilldo, when fighting goku notes that his power increased 100x, but that is no canon technically but according to Daizenshuu, his power increased 1250x from 120,000 to 150,000,000 against frieza csciabar
I believe it is something like this:
- Ape: 10x
- Kaio-ken: 1.5xXx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Kaioken x 2: 2.6Xx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Kaioken x 3: 3.7Xx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Kaioken x 4: 4.8xXx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Kaioken x 5: 5.9Xx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Kaioken x 10: 10.5Xx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Kaioken x 20: 20.9Xx Shadow King xX 18:28, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- FSSJ: 25x
- SSJ: 50x
- LSSJ: 60xXx Shadow King xX 18:23, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- ASSJ: 75x
- USSJ: 80x
- FPSSJ: 100x
- SSJ2: 200x
- SSJ3: 300x
- MSSJ: 325xXx Shadow King xX 18:23, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
- Golden Ape: 3000x
- SSJ4: 4000
Different take on multipliers and power levels Multipliers *
- kaioken 1.5x
- kaioken 2x
- kaioken 3x
- kaioken 4x
- kaioken 5x
- Ape 10x
- kaioken 10x
- kaioken 20x
- SSJ 50x
- Ultra SSJ 52x (Applied Weakness: Loss of Speed)
- SSJ2 54x
- SSJ3 58x
Goku Power level *Base: 3,000,000
- SSJ: 150,000,000
- SSJ2: 162,000,000
- SSJ3: 174,000,000
Where's Onio Edit
Onio is a Super Saiyan so why isn't he on the page?Staff Sergeant Jack Jackson 06:23, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is a Dragon Ball wiki, and while Neko Majin parodies it and uses some of the same plot devices and characters, I don't think it could really be considered canon to the Dragon Ball universe. I see no problem with discussing official spin-offs of DB separately, but mixing their plots in with the DB series seems like it would be pretty confusing. -- 09:18, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
Supressed Super Sayian Edit
Hi, i would just like to say that should the supressed Super Sayian form that Broly attained in Broly: The Legendary Super Sayian in the first fight against Goku be added onto the list of Super Sayian forms, as it should technically count as it is a type of Super Sayian transformation just like the False Super Sayian transformation?
Super Sayian421 17:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- That is a good observation. However, it is an incorrect one. The Daizenshuu makes note that the strange looking Super Saiyan form Broly took prior to transforming into the Legendary Super Saiyan was indeed his full Super Saiyan form. The difference in appearance is caused by the control device attached to his forehead. As stated in the movie, the device wasn't designed to supressed his power, though it did do just that as a result of its actual function. The device was designed just to plain and simply control Broly and his massive power. It isn't its own class of a Super Saiyan form like False Super Saiyan is. -- bulletproof 21:26, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Character Box Edit
Just a question, but would it be allright if we could use the same boxes for the Super Saiyan transformations like we do for the character and technique pages? --SS INFINITY 14:43, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see why not. Template:Infobox Technique seems suitable. -- 07:52, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- Allright, thanks man. --SS INFINITY 13:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
- It's possible, but anything we'd put would be speculation since this isn't explained in the series. -- 09:42, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
- Well, Akira kinda implied that her being female was partially the reason why she didn't have a SSJ transformation (He mentioned that he couldn't imagine what a female SSJ would look like.).
Considering there are only 3 Female Saiyans in the Series (Bulla,Pan,and Fasha), Akira didnt really have the oppurtunity to get into it --Silver Sinspawn 00:07, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
- Technically, there were only three named Female Saiyans in the series. However, there were definitely more than one female saiyans overall in the series (I know there were a few unnamed female saiyans in the pub scene in that same special, and at least one member of King Vegeta's royal guard was female.)
Fasha......Yeah Thats Her,But Still,Its not like you would see an Unnamed Super saiyan Besides of course,the original,whos name has been long since forgotten) Just a little Random,But is it Possible Fasha is Goku's Mother.So there we're only 3 NAMED sayains that are Female? --Silver Sinspawn 04:57, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
I think Toriyama said something about not knowing what a female would look like, so thats why GT never gave her the training or situation to go super saiyan, but if she tried she probably couldArieus 16:23, October 1, 2009 (UTC)
It was probably an excuse.
Well To Be honest in The Flat Out Series DBGT Was Not created by akira but by a good friend and in his timeline he said Publically that Dragon Ball GT never happened nad in turn making Pand and SS4 not even real, but at the end of that Seires he had quetions about how and why Pan could not reach Suepr saiyan and Akira Simply Stated that she was too Far Down the Line nad Just didnt get the Geen, it also refers Back At th VERY end of GT when Gokus and vegeta GREAT Grandchildren FIght they Became super saiyans and That CVreated GREAT Controversy and Also The Super saiyan's Ability was also Only Known in Men. Akira Beleive that the Woman Shoulds tay at Home and Not Do anything to Endanger their lives while the Husband Did all the work, Very Old Fashioned.
Ok Mr. Poor-Gramar-and-Random-Capitalisation Not only does your comment have no grounding at all for Akira's "Sexism" but i will agree he did not write GT, and Pan did not have the training to become a Super Saiyan at the end of Z, there was no subliminal sexism implied by Akira, i don't know if the guy who created GT was trying to put some down, but Akira definately was not. Arieus 21:42, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
Pan was in the manga but only as a child. So, she is real. Your right about everything else. Super Saiyan Historian 23:16, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
I think The Reason Goten and Trunks Turned Super saiyan so soon is because they sorta inherited it,and had the ability from Birth,just Unlocked it Later,Which may Mean Bardock (Possibly Fasha) and King Vegeta Might have had the ability Later on in life --Silver Sinspawn 08:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
OR that Vegeta and Goku have it Which they do.
i think that ssj became attained so much sooner was due the need and prob superior training as time went on csciabar 1:08, 01 Sept 2009 9 (EST)
I believe Goten and Trunks inherited the ability to turn Super Saiyan as Goku and Vegeta were Super Saiyans at the time of their birth. It does seem a little ridiculous though. Vegeta's was right that the "Legendary Status" became a child's play thing...lol Super Saiyan Historian 23:20, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
you cant inherit being a super saiyan its acheived through lots of training and the need to become it VegetaIsTheBestSuper Saiyan 3 13:24, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Evan though we always use anime manga is always better and the picture is so much better! So lets just make 1 exeption! Vegerot 11:40, 29 April 2009 (UTC)!
I kind of agree that the one with all of the diffrent Super Saiyans is a better picture Thunderbender18 22:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Well now we have 2 votes to have the picture with all of the Super Saiyans so we have overpowerd you!Vegerot 11:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh My God! I won my 1st war!!!!!!!!!!!Vegerot 21:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)!!!!!!!
SSJ2AJB Not exactly.
What do u mean?!Vegerot " I AM GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"! 13:02, 14 June 2009 (UTC)!!!!!!
SSJ2AJB Okay, one, Vegerot, don't say that you're God. That's blasphemy, so just stop it already. Two, stop adding a million exclamation points on your comments. You sound like an immature brat when you do that. And three, if you want to discuss this matter, do it on my talk page. People don't want to hear any nonsense that's unrelated to the Super Saiyan page. Just talk about it on my talk page.
The current edit war regarding the image. EditSSJ2AJB and Vegerot, please stop continuing to wage war over the image, there is no need for it. It would be best for the two of you to discuss your opinions on the matter without continuously undoing and changing the image. Once you guys come up with a final opinion on the matter, then take action. I'm only saying this because I don't like to see users wage war over such a silly thing. I'd love to see you opinions, so please share them with each other and everyone else. Thanks again guys.
"No Full Blooded Saiyan has made his first transformation on the Earth (Goku's first transformation occurred on Namek and Vegeta's occurred deep in space while training). "this is the last piece of trivia on this page.i have to ask:is it really that required to have this noted?i don't think so,but i'm new here and that is my stupid noob thought.comments?
I have to agree that it isn't necessary to have it in this article, I don't think we have to remove it either. It's an interesting little statement, so I think it can stay or go either way.Sonictheweasel 04:37, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
Not true! Trunks transformed on Earth. (In his time)220.127.116.11 03:15, January 20, 2012 (UTC)
They said full blooded
spirit bomb- android 13 Edit
i thought goku chose to absorb the spirit bomb and didn't lose control of it, doesn't krillin say that he was still pure of heart as a super saiyan? csciabar
Yes he did say that, but remeber, this is a movie and cannot be considered main canon, therefore Krillin's statement should be disregarded Arieus 21:47, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
a true super saiyan Edit
this is pure speculation, but it seams like all the stages up to ssj3 are really all plateus reached by the fighter trying to gain strength
i think maybe, the true ssj form is 3 (if you discard 4 since it is not part of the manga) and all others are just an approach to it at 3, your hair is really, really long and you have lost your eye brows, and your eyes have changed color, each stage in the super saiyan before this simply approaches this stage
of course they may be distinct plateus (levels), of course we must simply refer to the creator ono this one
but i like ssj4 because it kind of goes back to the more primalness of the saiyans being apes, returning some hair to their bodies and also giving back their black hair, it also seems like a good place to stop, at the beginning so to speak, but in that case, there only seems to be 2 real stages csciabar
Technically speaking, if you go by Manga only, SS3 is the true form. The name SS1, and SS2 was created by the characters. It's kinda like a butterfly, the butterfly part is the last and "true" form of it. So SS1 could be considered a powered down version of SS3 but that's just pure speculation. BrolytheLegend
Wow almost all of these make no sense. Why should SS3 be the true Super Saiyan? It was dubbed as SS3 by Goku after all. Besides then SS4 would be SS2. SS3 was never said to be the full Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 are REAL transformations. SS3 is just another heightned level of Super Saiyan. Also the chracteristics of SS3 are not proof or evidence its the true Super Saiyan. Also Akira Toriyama wanted DBZ to end after the Frieza Saga but continued bc of fan popularity. So SS3 would not have existed if it wasn' t for fans, therefore that def proves it's not a "ture super saiyan" just a higher transformation of it
Man i love that people can read. The comment was stated as pure speculation, and besides we all know that dbz was meant to end at the frieza saga, and THEN at the cell saga. So yes origionally SSJ3 was not meant to exsist, but the truth of the matter is Akira created new forms as an evolution of his characters, and thats all that happened.Arieus 21:51, February 1, 2010 (UTC)
What was that first sentence supposed to mean? Also if we all know these facts then why should there be speculation? And your last sentence sums it up pretty well
The way I see it (anime only) that all of the golden Super Saiyan forms are not transformations but upgrades from one to the next and that Super Saiyan 4 is the true legendary Super Saiyan because it focuses on the tail and the moon. But this is all speculation. Super Saiyan Historian 23:28, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
Super Saiyan Historian has it right in my opinion. Remember Vegeta saying that the true Super Saiyan could only be achieved by taking control of one's self when tranformed into the Ape. I think that what GT is trying to show is that SSj1, SSj2, SSj3 are only ways of increasing power, but a true Super Sayian is actually the Super Sayian 4 form. And this can further be known by just observing the transformations. SSj1 gives more power and it's easy to achieve, SSj2 gives even more power is not so easy but not hard, SSj3 is full power but is easily consumed. But SSj4 is massively more powerful and it can be sustained for a really long time as it is proved by Goku when fighting Baby.
Well i was just thinking that the actual true super saiyan could be another Super Saiyan level. In my opinion it would be a powered up Super Saiyan 4 called Super Saiyan 5. The fur would turn golden along with the hair. Kinda like a Super Saiyan SSJ4
I had thought of that as well. The form would make sense if a Super Saiyan had golden fur. Again I'm just speculating, but it could have been the original idea but opted for the red fur, red tail. I have seen alot of fanart of a Super Saiyan 4 with recolored golden fur. While this makes more sense I kind of perfer red fur visually speaking. One interesting observation to point out is the coloration between Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan 4 are reversed. Golden Oozaru has red eyes, gold fur and SSJ4 has yellow eyes and red fur (Goku at least). However, Vegeta's green eyes as a SSJ4 is odd then again Gogeta is weirder. Super Saiyan Historian 07:08, July 1, 2011 (UTC)
What does SSJ mean?Edit
Whats the difference between SS and SSJ? I came to the wiki to find out, but SSJ redirects here.
- They are both abbreviations for Super Saiyan. Depending on the language and publisher, Super Saiyan is sometimes spelled with a "j", such as in "Sūpā Saiya-jin". Rest assured that SS and SSJ mean the same exact thing. Hope this helps. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:32, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
Legend picture Edit
This scene depicts the first Super Saiyan and appear in the series to illustrate Vegeta's telling of the Legend of Super Saiyans. It should remain on the proper section. A legend is a legend, even if it is not the most commonly known Super Saiyan, it is the one that Toei Animation choose to illustrate what is a Super Saiyan. Jeangabin666 14:56, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
- that may be the case but there is another whole page dedicated to that picture and that person so it does not belong on that page and the Super Saiyan page
VEGETA TheLegendarySuperSayiia14:59, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
- The case is this section is about the Legend of the Super Saiyan. The legend is depicted by this picture. There is also pages about Goku, Vegeta, Trunks... and picture of them appear on this page. Jeangabin666 15:05, September 26, 2010 (UTC)]
- Yes but that picture is also filler and therefore non-canon it does not need to be there
VEGETA TheLegendarySuperSayiia15:07, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
- Then move it to a gallery section, but don't remove it. It's a filler, but it's also the first depiction of a Super Saiyan and gave us clue about their Golden Color. Jeangabin666 15:11, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
Super Saiyan diagram Edit
I think the arrow connecting "Legendary Super Saiyan" to "Super Saiyan 3" should be greyed out, no? Because tat only appear in games. 18.104.22.168 18:07, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
- Right! Jeangabin666 18:09, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
- Not rmving it but coloring the arrow grey instead of dark, because the transformation from LSS to SS3 appears only in video games. Jeangabin666 19:15, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
Don't know if this was brought up before but Cell could be added to users. when goku fights him in hell, cell powers up and has a yellow aura. since he has goku's dna in him it could be possible he learned how to transform while in hell.22.214.171.124 22:48, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
Cell's ki in his per form was always yellow like that. It's done to make his aura look like the main characters' auras to show the similarity in their DNA
126.96.36.199 07:32, March 11, 2011 (UTC)The Perfect Warrior, March 9, 2011
If the standard Super Saiyan transformation can multiply a power level x50, how much do the Super Saiyan 2, 3 and 4 transformation multiply a power level by? --Four Star 22:45, July 7, 2011 (UTC)
There is no evidence in the anime or manga stating how many times stronger your power increases when you tranform into SSj2, SSj3, or SSj4. But some people claim super saiyan 2 increases 100 times stronger than super saiyan while others say 2 times stronger. It is totally fan speculation. Ripto22475 23:54, August 26, 2011 (UTC)
Muscles don't change while going SSJ Edit
"Natural eye color temporarily changes to a greenish-blue, muscle tone becomes more defined, and the skin tone (and clothing) becomes lighter mainly due to the energy and light output of the golden aura."
It has been shown in the Movie Bojack Unbound that muscles don't change while going SSJ and back. It as shown on Trunks when he fell down unconcious while fighting one of Bojack's men and transformed back, his muscles didn't change at all just his aura dissapeared and his hair turned normal(his eyes were closed)...... Please look into the matter....
188.8.131.52 18:39, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
- Then that's an exception. It's possibly that the muscle increase is quick, but going back to normal involuntarily is slower. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 20:18, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
- Actually the muscles do increase. If u actually watched the cell saga Vegeta first abtained the accended super sayin satus first and his muscles increased. Following that Goku and Trunks both powerd up to ultra super sayin and they were very buff..TheProdigy345 00:32, December 4, 2011 (UTC)TheProdigy345 Dec 03 2011TheProdigy345 00:32, December 4, 2011 (UTC)
Broly super saiyan. Edit
I think that Broly's weird blue super saiyan color should be added but with a note stating that it was caused by his control items. —This unsigned comment was made by JanembaFreak97 (talk • contribs) .
- Please sign your posts. This was not a Super Saiyan form, just an effect of Broly's Ring. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 02:22, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
- Am I sure of what, you just said the same thing I did. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 02:36, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
- I know it's not a seperate form but he was a super saiyan and his hair was blue, so i just thought that it should be added considering it was a color scheme while in the state. JanembaFreak97 03:04, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
Right, the blue hair is not a separate form, it's just Super Saiyan. The blue isn't a separate color scheme either, it's just the ring's effect. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 03:07, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
Broly's blue hair in his Super saiyan form is because of the effects of his ring. The Super Saiyan form he takes is more of a "restrained" Super Saiyan, not much like the typical "Super Saiyan" with gold hair. Thats why when it breaks, it takes more of a goldish green. Ripto22475 12:56, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
The Blue hair he gets when he trys going LSSJ but his dad restrains him and it takes control of his mind and hair, because if his hair can't change, his power can't. Xx Shadow King xX 01:50, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
- With the ring, Broly is restrained from becoming Legendary Super Saiyan, he is not restrained in his Super Saiyan form. 08:51, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
Goku... Not first...? Edit
Hello, here in the text is says goku was the first super saiyan. Here is the line "The Super Saiyan form was first achieved by Goku after witnessing his best friend Krillin's death at the hands of Frieza." So my statement about Goku having the super saiyan 2 transformation not first, is clearly proven here. Goku was the first to achive super saiyan 1, 3, and 4. he is not the first to achive super saiyan 2, as that was gained by Gohan first in the series. Ripto22475 13:03, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
- That line doesn't mean he achieved it first, it talks about when he first achieved it. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 16:52, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
But it says the super saiyan form was first achieved by goku after witnessing his best friend krillin's death at the hands of frieza. Should I change the wording to something like "Goku achieved this transformation after witnessing the death of his best friend krillin at the hands of frieza", so users do not get confused that he was the first? Ripto22475 16:58, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
- No, the way it is currently written is better, since it states that this was the first time he transformed. -- 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 19:20, September 12, 2011 (UTC)
Yakon was not over one fourth of Goku's fpssj level. If you lookm carefully, that's only what Goku's power is perceived to be on Babidi's measuring device because it only goes up to 3000, but in reality Goku is topping off the device. If u look at it, the measuring needle is all the way at the end of the measuring device, signifying this is all the device can measure up to. So it would be more accurate to say he's over one fourth as strong as what Goku 's fpssj form was measured at with Babidi's measuring device
184.108.40.206 19:52, November 18, 2011 (UTC)Anonymous dbz contributor
What is the Power Level of Goku Super Saiyan 2? Edit
Hi everyone, I was wondering what the power level of super saiyan 2 Goku is. Goku full-power super saiyan's power level is 3,000,000,000 and Goku super saiyan 3's power level is 24,000,000,000. So, if any one knows the answer, PLEASE respond! Thank you!
200x stronger I think. I think it goes.
FSSJ (Less time) &SSJ: 50
Golden Oozaru: 500
Goku's powerlevels at this point are entirely up to speculation actually. We cannot put an unreferenced number in the article. Plus some of your numbers make no sense, particularly that ASSJ is 75 while USSJ at 80 - USSJ Trunks had strength even exceeding Cell's own, while Vegeta's ASSJ strength was vastly inferior. The power inflation between the stages is much greater than that. Same with SS3, it's supposed to be 4x SS2. I personally disagree about SS2 being only twice the strength of a FPSSJ, though Xfing 03:59, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
Super saiyan power-ups and more Edit
There are many different power-ups of super saiyan. they are:
Golden Oozaru(Great ape)
Saiyan Arua or Color Edit
When it says color for transformation does it meen the Arua color or the hair or both?
SSJman 22:43, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
well dude i have to tell you this here's the truth super saiyan isn't 50 base wanna know why? if you listen carefully about goku kaioken you'll know it's wrong because king kai said to goku that kaioken times your power by 2 kaioken times 2 will be 4 times up and 3 will be 6 times up and also they said frieza 60% is 100 million as power level but... kaioken times 20 should had been enough but it wasn't.... and plus the guys didn't get the powers right they think since kaioken is a level that times up power level which it doesn't that super saiyan 1 base is 50 it's actually 5 times kaioken only times your power level when it's to the 12,000's and 600,000's anything higher and kaioken times 20 will only feel like kaioken times 1 if your power level is 3 million and 500 the only way it's going to if goku used super kaioken but he can't do that uper kaioken can only be used in overworld and it's only times one if he did it alive it will destroy his body.... if you think it's wrong go ahead dude and also i speak with one of akira's workers they told me about the magan he clearly said that the magan is a believing of false information of dbz power levels if you wanna know the true power levels you have to try listening to the series first and understand it more. and also i can tell you this people who made up them 50 base super saiyan power levels are wrong by this in cell saga they listed krillin's power level as 226 million krillin is human thats to much power for him the only human who can control that kind of power level is Tien because he is the world's strongest human he never stops training which allows him to goto those kind of power levels if he wanted how i know this ? when goku was fighting frieza master roshi said that goku had a power that noone can't even get to it that it would change them forever which is 15 million no human can control that if it just pops up in them they would only end up like broly or either power down over the power
and here is something else here's the best way for you to find out goku super saiyan 3 power level i found it out the first time he went to it it was 450 when fighting kid buu it was 503 which is stronger then buu kid buu was 500 million but if he gets mad goku still doens't have a chance since he's only 3 times stronge rthe power is even by far if the fighters are not dumb.. like power levels doesn't always win about who's the highest if your only 5 times stronger like goku he could had defeated cell while cell was still using only half of his power but he choosed onlty to show gohan how cell fights so he's ready
1. about ss4 bieng the true super saiyan form and ss1,2,3 bieng steping stones is interesting but im not sure its true, sorry.
2. About a saiyans muscle mass increasing or not while they transform. It does but not always my guess over observation thatit is similar to the full power part. Basicly the more times you turn into a super saiyan the eaiser it gets and less time it takes and you gaain the strength but not the muscle mass beacause as you use the ss form you train and perfect it.Iggobba (talk) 07:37, August 11, 2012 (UTC)8/11/12 iggobba
Why Bardock was first Edit
I think it's a pretty simple explanation. Bardock went SSJ when the plants lived on Planet Vegeta. It wasn't till at least a good number of years later (idk, millennium?) that the Tuffles lived there. Now, when the saiyans arrived, the Tuffles were there, and the plants were long gone. The only reason that the saiyans left their original planet was due to its destruction at the hands of the unnamed "original" super saiyan. So since the "original" super saiyan became a super saiyan when the Tuffles were on Planet Vegeta, and Bardock became a super saiyan when the plants were living there way before the Tuffles, Bardock had to be first. Deus Gladiorum (talk) 10:14, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
- The exact chronology is not confirmed. I don't care about your edits, but don't modify the image order and most of all, don't add an image of Krillin on the Super Saiyan article. 19:50, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Alright, sorry. I'll change back my edits, but I'll keep the image order as it is. Deus Gladiorum (talk) 00:44, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
I think that ssj4 multiplies power by 500 because the normal ssj transformation multiplies power by 50, while the great ape increases power by 10. Now since you can only achieve ssj4 with transforming into a golden great ape, the power should be 500. But due to goku not being able to control it, it could be less but when goku becomes fully conscious, he becomes ssj4 and his power increased more.
Ascended Super Saiyan is a category Edit
While I like how fans differ between Super Saiyan forms, not SSJ, SSJ2 and SS3 in DBZ but also the others like ASSJ and FPSSj and all and think it should be kept this way I want to point out that in both the manga and the anime, Japanese, English and other languages, the term "Super Saiyan ascended past a Super Saiyan" or "Beyond Super Saiyan" are used for more than just the "bulky Super-Saiyan". In fact even the Super Saiyan 2 - which really is officially called "Super Saiyan 2" as well - is included since it is used for all those transformations in the Cell and in the Buu Saga mentioned by characters like Goku or Majin Vegeta who use that term for different forms. I think the "Ascended Super Saiyan" section or the part about it here on the Super Saiyan page itself should be rewritten because both the manga and the anime show that "Ascended Super Saiyan" is a category with 3 levels, or even 4 if you want to differ between Super-Goku/-Vegeta and Trunks who fought Cell with all his physical strength unlike Vegeta.
So basically it is:
Ascended Super Saiyan LV1: "ASSJ" - Ascended Super Saiyan (shown by Goku, Vegeta and Trunks; full physical strength power up is possible, like Trunks showed), Ascended Super Saiyan LV2: "FPSSJ" - Full Power Super Saiyan (the "all the time Super Saiyans" Goku and Gohan are during the Cell Games), Ascended Super Saiyan LV3: "SSJ2" - Super Saiyan 2 (Goku in the Buu Saga, Vegeta in the Buu Saga, Gohan in both the Cell and the Buu Saga)
Super Saiyan 3
In different languages the "Super Saiyans", "Ascended Super Saiyans" and "3rd Level Super Saiyans" are even seperated by being called "Super Saiyans" (SSJ), "Ultra Saiyans" (so ASSJ-SSJ2) and "Mega Saiyans" (SSJ3). I don't know, I have heard the English translation uses "Ultra Saiyan" for a Super Saiyan 3 (and sometimes for the Full Strength ASSJ form Trunks used against Cell) but at least the different levels of an Ascended Super Saiyan is what should be thought about since the "Ascended Super Saiyan" form is really just one level of the "Ascended Super Saiyan" category. "LV1-LV3" are used by me here to explain it better. That all of them are called "Ascended" or "Beyond Super Saiyan" really is true so I thought calling them "different levels of one category" would be fitting. Cetra1 (talk) 16:53, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
- We use the most official terms possible. Video game terminology is preferred over fan creations. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 06:02, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
Uhm, but that "Ascended Super Saiyan" or "Super Saiyan ascended past a Super Saiyan" is used for what people call the bulky Super Saiyan, the Full Power Super Saiyan and even the Super Saiyan 2 in the manga and the anime would make this, so the most logical conclusion based on the most official thing we have, the manga and the anime, the "category thing" the most official thing, wouldn't it? "Category" is a word which is not defined by me, so not by a fan and has an official meaning, not only for Dragon Ball for everything including Dragon Ball, and it is fitting for what I try to explain. I mean, the terms used for different states in the manga and anime from Goku, Majin Vegeta, et cetera should have more meaning than a video game or fan creation - and I think you mean my term with "fan creation" but what I did was no fan creation. I have made a conclusion based on manga and anime lines. Like: "They use "ascended past a Super Saiyan" for what fans call Ascended Super Saiyan-Super Saiyan 2 so all those forms are Ascended Super Saiyans but on a different level". Logical conclusions are allowed, after all many things in Dragon Ball are not said exactly the way they are but shall be concluded and I think those states having the same term should make the conclusion obvious, right? And you also conclude "Broly does have blue hair in his Super Saiyan form because of his ring" even though it is not mentioned but it is obvious because he does not have the ring in his second movie and fair hair then. This is exactly the same thing. I use elements mentioned in the manga and anime and conclude the most obvious way, in this case with statements from the characters and those are official indeed, we all know that. Like I have said, Ascended Super Saiyan, Full Power Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 should be kept but I think the category and level thing for them as Ascended Super Saiyans should be mentioned. Not I say that thing about Ascended Super Saiyans, the characters do and I think this should be mentioned. It won't change the names of the states themselves. They still can be differed with the other terms. It just shows that not only the muscleman-Super Saiyan is called "Ascended Super Saiyan" or "Beyond Super Saiyan". Like Goku for example says "This is a Super Saiyan that has ascended past a Super Saiyan. Or you can just call it a Super Saiyan 2". The conclusion is, like I have said, those are all "Ascended Super Saiyans but different states, beginning with the weakest,.the Super Saiyan 1 Stage 2 which is called "Ascended Super Saiyan" by the fans and I just call the first level of the Ascended Super Saiyan, then the Full Power Super Saiyan and then the strongest of them, the Super Saiyan 2". Technically even a Super Saiyan 3 would be an "ascended Super Saiyan" but I don't use it here because for this state terms like "even further beyond" are used. Cetra1 (talk) 12:22, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
- The quotes you have brought forward are that Goku once used the adjective ascended to describe the process of getting to SS2. Yes, all Saiyans must ascend from 1 to 2 to 3 and so on, but those forms all have official names, in additional to this one brief description from Goku. Ascended Super Saiyan does not have a better numerical description. We use the most official and often-used name first, not the brief descriptions first— they are only a last resort. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:20, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it referred to as "Super Saiyajin" in the English manga? I saw "Sūpā Saiya-jin" in the infobox, but that's the Japanese version, and I was wondering if "Super Saiyajin" should be added as an alternate name.21:35, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
- Go for it, make sure you mention the source in your edit summary. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:24, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
- Super Saiyan 7 Somebody, maybe you read a fansub and not the official Viz version? -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:03, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
All I know is that it's a online version; I compared a panel of it to one uploaded by Jeanie (and they were identical) to make sure it wasn't fan drawing. Guess it isn't text-official though. Sorry for the mix-up. 03:09, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
- A fansub is not a fan drawing, it is a set of scans of the original Japanese manga with the words blanked out and then replaced with English. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:33, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
Two pictures in the gallery don't belong Edit
Two pictures in the gallery don't belong the one that says Super Saiyan Goku in Budokai Tenkaichi and Super Saiyan Vegeta in Budokai Tenkaichi and here is why Goku and Vegeta are not Super Saiyan they are Super Saiyan 2.
- Which pictures are you looking at? I just want to double check. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:44, December 31, 2012 (UTC)
They are of Goku and Vegeta in Budokai Tenkaichi and they are in their Super Saiyan 2 form.
- Okay great, and which pictures are those? -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 01:00, January 2, 2013 (UTC)
Jeangabin666 done removed them.
- I was looking at the two that had the grey backgrounds and had lighting around Goku and Vegeta.
I was looking for filenames, which are the only sure way to differentiate between files in a gallery. Reposting them here would have been okay too. The description is not a great way, since there were 6 images with gray background, and you did not tell me that information until after the two in question had already been removed. Just remember for next time, thanks. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 01:53, January 2, 2013 (UTC)
Concerning the current changesEdit
Well, the article's screwed now.03:09, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
You seem to be making quite a few changes...like a lot of picture replacements. Aren't these thing usually discussed on talk pages first?
Not to mention you and Jeanie seem to have different views. 03:46, April 20, 2013 (UTC)
Image of Bardock Edit
I don't see why that image of Bardock as a Super Saiyan shouldn't be on that part of the article. The image in the movie section is a different image, and neither of them detract from the article. If anything, it provides more as a visual reference. Why would you purposely delete relevant content? Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 22:53, April 24, 2013 (UTC)
- There is no mention of Bardock in the "Legend" section, given that there is no need for there to be (which you agreed with). Therefor, how is an image of Super Saiyan Bardock applicable? An image of the "Original" Super Saiyan and Goku dictates and matches the content of that section. The image of Bardock should be left within the "Movie and other appearances" section below. Does this make sense?
- There is no mention of Bardock in the "Legend" section because you removed the part where he was mentioned when you removed the Bardock image the image. I also request the Bardock image to be readded to the legend section. That's two votes against one. 00:13, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
Shakuran13 agreed the mention of Bardock's transformation in the "Legend" section was unnecessary, which is why having an image of Super Saiyan Bardock in that section does not work. I'm all for finding an alternative image of Super Saiyan Goku, but it should not be an image of Bardock.
- There only Goku images at the beginning of this article. Goku is not the only Super Saiyan, and even less the fist one. It should be an image of someone else. And since Bardock was a Super Saiyan before Goku, it has to be an image of Bardock. 00:20, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
Episode of Bardock is not apart of the official manga, it is a side-story, not written by Akira Toriyama. Shakuran13 agreed the mention of Bardock's reasoning for becoming a Super Saiyan was unneeded. With what you're trying to say, we might as well throw Broly in the legend section too... again original manga and anime take complete precedence over any other material, which includes Episode of Bardock, which is not official manga, in fact it's based off the video game Dragon Ball: Heroes.
It is correct that Episode of Bardock never occured in the canon timeline. However, this wiki is a database of all DB things, including the non-canon ones, and users tend to use non-canon magazines or media for information (such as power levels). If we were to ignore what is not canon, then 8 or so of the DBZ movies shouldn't even have pages. -KidVegeta (talk)
- It makes no difference what is canon or not, information from the original manga and anime take precedence over any other material, canon or not.
- Information from the original manga and anime take precedence over any other material, but infromation from other material have to be mentioned as well. 00:33, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Right, but precendence is an irrelevant word here. I mean, you can just put a paragraph or so at the bottom of the section stating that Bardock achieved it as well, but it was only in a spinoff. That won't affect the information from the original manga. I also agree that if Bardock is mentioned in the section, Broly should be, as his movie is far more canon following that the bardock spinoff. -KidVegeta (talk)
- Information from the original manga and anime take precedence over any other material, but infromation from other material have to be mentioned as well. 00:33, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
All that is going to do is confuse readers not as knowledgeable about Dragon Ball information as we are. Having a section dedicated to specifically mentioning Bardock's Super Saiyan status in a side-story is completely acceptable. The "Legend" section should contain information that details events depicted and stated directly from the original manga and anime.
- It won't confuse anybody. We have to show every official piece of information. Episode of Bardock belongs to the anime canon, as it is a special episode about Bardock. So it belongs to the legend section like the Original Super Saiyan mention. 00:42, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Well, you are assuming there, SSJGoku93. If I read it, and saw that it merely said that in a spinoff, what if scenario Bardock achieved Super Saiyan, I wouldn't be confused. Again, I think this can simply be solved by explaining, concisely, that Bardock's transformation is Alternate Universe. -KidVegeta (talk)
The only way to add these two instances into the "Legend" section would have to be something like. "According to the film, "Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan", Broly is depicted as the Super Saiyan of legend, even transforming before Goku. Also, within the special "Episode of Bardock", Bardock is depicted as being sent back in time and transforming into a Super Saiyan". Something like this would add the information but also indicate its source. You would be surprised just how confusing this concept can be to the average reader.
- According to the Manual of Style, there is no such thing as "non-canon". We honor manga as the "most canon", then anime, and so on. Bardock and Broly should by no means be omitted. We also should not have duplicate images on the same page. Even if we need to show Goku twice, just use two different Goku images. -- 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:56, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
I merely agreed that the reason for Bardock's transformation was too similar to Goku's, and that particular piece of information should not be there. I did not, however, say that there should be no information about Bardock at all in the Legend section; in fact, I think that it's a good idea to include Bardock in that section since he may or may not have contributed to the legend.
While the original manga takes precedence over other things, it is not the be all and end all of information. Since there is other official Dragon Ball content, no matter what it might be about, as long as it does not contradict the manga, it has a place on the wiki. If you want to put a warning that it is from a spin-off, you can do so, but it still makes sense to include Bardock, since his achievement of the Super Saiyan form is so noteworthy. Alternate universe is also not the answer, since that is not how we do things on this wiki.
Again, there is nothing to indicate that we should only include manga/anime information in the Legend section, so I find no reason to omit a relevant image. Shakuran13ThisendsNOW! 21:16, April 25, 2013 (UTC)
- Here is what I propose, for instances such as what we're discussing. This example would fit into the "Legend" section after the initial manga/anime information.
Example- "Within the film, "Dragon Ball Z: Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan", Broly is depicted as the Saiyan of legend, even having initially transformed into a Super Saiyan prior to Goku. Also, within the manga and anime spin-off, "Dragon Ball: Episode of Bardock", Goku's father Bardock survives the destruction of his people and is sent back in time where he faces an ancestor of Frieza named Chilled. During the subsequent battle, the death of a child he befriend causes him to transform into a Super Saiyan."
Something along those lines would adequately differentiate and cite the source of the information.