FANDOM

7,462 Pages

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Super Saiyan 2 article.
This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.

  • Be polite
  • Assume good faith
  • No personal attacks
  • Do not bite the newcomers
  • Respond in a mature manner
  • Be welcoming
  • Maintain civility at all times
Article policies
  • No opinionated research for articles
  • Have a neutral point of view
  • Verifiability
Archives
Archive 1 November 14, 2008

SSJ2 Goten-Trunks

Look everyone it is proven in the GT Perfect Files Goten and Trunks are confirmed to make the transformation to SSJ2 , if you dont take my word my good friend Kazi himself has read it to and seen the book it is confirmed

How weird is it that two people he know an seen the GT Perfect files say the same thing and another guy comes, brings false information at first (stating their is another one by toie), and he says were wrong, come on (Goten.GT1 17:00, 17 November 2008 (UTC))

Dekoshu 17:34, 17 November 2008 (UTC) I believe they can tranform into Super Saiyan 2 if something happened to them.

here are two cards from japan showing each of Goten's Transformation's the left is Super Saiyan the right is Super Saiyan 2.

Adultgotencardgt

Super Saiyan Goten

Dbgtcardgoten1

Super Saiyan 2 Goten

as you can see on the picture on the right Goten tand the one on the left is Goten at Super Saiyan 2. (Goten.GT1 18:55, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Dekoshu 21:31, 17 November 2008 (UTC) I understand your point.

You say these are cards. I thought we were going to see something from the GT Perfect Files? -- Nonoitall talk contr 22:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

There are absolutely no differences in Goten's appearance that I can see. If he was SSJ2, they most likely would have drawn sparks around him, and gave his skin more of a gleaming look, a strong characteristic in Super Saiyan 2. They may also have given his face a more stern look. Plus, cards are not official info, as they are not made by Toriyama, Toei, or even FUNimation...Just thought I'd throw that out there. SSJGoku93 23:16, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

i put these here until kazi uploads the images of the confirmation page. In the Dragonball GT Perfect Files (Goten.GT1 23:18, 17 November 2008 (UTC))

Okay cool, I'm interested to see these, as I'd imagine Goten and Trunks would both have eventually ascended, but you'd really need proof. SSJGoku93 23:25, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Dekoshu 23:32, 17 November 2008 (UTC) They're right, Goten.GT1. I really love to see Goten and Trunks becoming a Super Sayan 2, but I'm pretty sure it's difficult to see them transforming into it.

i will message him now, dekenshu if you dont belive the can then i got not much more to say to you, ive seen the confirmation it is official all thats let is to show it to you guys. (Goten.GT1 00:14, 18 November 2008 (UTC))

Well I've given both Goten.GT1 and his friend Kazi22, who supposedly had the undisputed evidence from the actual Dragon Ball GT Perfect File books that "confirmed" Goten and Trunks' ascension to SSJ2, 3 days to actually reveal the "evidence". Now 3 days have passed and the only thing that has been brought out to the playing field are these promotional trading cards AND a pathetic excuse from Goten.GT1 stating he's still waiting on his friend to scan the images from his own supposed Perfect File book. Well I believe that after days of deliberation and Goten.GT1 quite frankly wasting everybody's time, I should just finish this myself. So here it is.
From the GT Perfect Files
It's a pretty simple chart. It's arranged by the actual stage name (blue background), and then the characters that achieve it are listed beneath that.
サイヤ人 = chou (suupaa) saiyajin = Super Saiya-jin / Saiyan
トランクス = torankusu = Trunks
孫悟天 = son goten = Son Goten
For a full breakdown, though:
SSJ1:
- Son Goku
- Son Gohan
- Son Goten
- Vegeta
- Future Trunks
- Trunks
- Gotenks
- Vegetto
SSJ1 Stage 2 ("USSJ"):
- Son Goku
- Future Trunks
- Vegeta
SSJ1 Stage 3 ("USSJ2")
- Son Goku
- Future Trunks
SSJ2:
- Son Goku
- Son Gohan
- Demon Prince Vegeta
- Gotenks (though not displayed)
SSJ3:
- Son Goku
- Gotenks
SSJ4:
- Son Goku
Pretty sure this particular guide was written before DBGT episode 59 when Vegeta went SSJ4, so that explains that exclusion (and no movie characters are mentioned, so Gogeta isn't in here at all).
So there you have it. Goten and Trunks are only listed under regular ol' SSJ1. 71.104.122.55 04:27, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

We can put Gotenks there, it was stated that he can go Super Saiyan 2 in Daizenshuu #7. (Eisoniq 10:18, 21 November 2008 (UTC))

Yes Gotenks was also listed as SSJ2 on this chart. I forgot to add him in my last post. I am 71.104.122.55 BTW. -- bulletproof
Sounds pretty open and shut to me. :-) Thanks for posting that info. -- Nonoitall talk contr 10:34, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I wanna Know why isent Gogeta their then because Gogeta was on the Dragonball GT Anime show and made the transformation fusion to Super Saiyan 4 in the Show not the movie. And i see what the Problem is man you own vol 1 i own vol 2 and i think Kazi to so Thats why mine has Gogeta vegeta listed in Super Saiyan 4 and Goten and Trunks as Super Saiyan 2. (Goten.GT1 21:58, 21 November 2008 (UTC))

I own both, and nowhere is it listed that that Goten and Trunks reached SSJ2. "I see what the problem is man." WOW Could you have come up with a worse argument than that?-- bulletproof 08:41, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

And what do you mean Paticular Guide all Vol 1 are the same which is the one you displayed and all Vol 2 are the same, you say it like their are different guides when their are not. (Goten.GT1 22:16, 21 November 2008 (UTC))

look at you still trying to cover your butt. "this particular guide" as in Perfect File #1 was written before DBGT episode 59. Never said that it was a whole 'nother guide. You're just trying to twist my words around to attempt to make me look bad. Pathetic. There is no evidence that Goten or Trunks made it to SSJ2 because it never happened. -- bulletproof 08:16, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

I removed all the parts about Goten and Trunks as so far we have absolutely no evidence. The facts and links that 71.104.122.55 posted are quite compelling and good enough evidence for me and all of you most likely. So, I deleted it, but if any of you feel we should wait to delete it feel free to add them back in if you have some proof. SSJGoku93 22:55, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely. Goten.GT1, if you have evidence of Goten and Trunks achieving Super Saiyan 2, by all means post it! Otherwise, the matter seems closed. -- Nonoitall talk contr 23:14, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

see guys its not as easy for me, i dont have a digital camera, scanner nothing to be able to show you guys it harder for me, and me kazi22, ssj2abj are not lieing its just hard for mr guys. (Goten.GT1 23:19, 21 November 2008 (UTC))

Dekoshu 23:20, 21 November 2008 (UTC) Show me your evidence of SS2 Goten and Trunks.

We are not accusing you guys of any lie, however we just feel that solid hard evidence is needed for this matter. If you can get us some evidence, we'd be happy to re-post it as it would be true. SSJGoku93 23:26, 21 November 2008 (UTC)


BTCS13 19:11. 24 November 2008 (UTC) that in order to be SS2 ur hair is spiker and stands on its end, with electricity surrounding the Saiyan. now we can go on & on about this but the evidence speaks for itself & the evidence is saying that in DBGT GOten & Trunks Achieved the ss2 form ONCE but it was when they were possesed by Baby, but they still achieved the form

Actually the evidence dose speak for itself. The GT Perfect File books are essentially the official Dragon Ball GT encyclopedia much like the Daizenshuu books are essentially the official Dragon Ball/Z encyclopedia. Thus, if the GT Perfect File books only list Goten and Trunks as SSJ1, then they were SSJ1. Am I saying that animation is tumped by the Perfect File books? Yes because in this instance there is an official source that states so.-- bulletproof 23:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)


BTCS13 02:46 pm 22 December 2008 (UTC)

GT Goten s s2

This Is Gotens SS2 Form the picture should b enough proof

Моментальный снимок 1 (03.10.2011 19-24)

This Is Trunks SS2 Form, the evidence should speak for its self

To bad it doesn't. There's nothing from "The Evidence" that actually states this is Super Saiyan 2. This is just animation. As for "Official Evidence", the GT Perfect File books state Goten and Trunks are only Super Saiyan 1. -- bulletproof 23:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
It's not unruly for the animation to be tumped by the Perfect Files. In the Frieza Saga when Vegeta takes on Frieza after Dende revitalizes him from Krillin's fatal attack, Vegeta spends like three minutes powering up to the point where he has a lightning-like aura, when in the reality of the series he hadn't achieved even the first level of Super Saiyan. One might argue that this was before the concept of the Super Saiyan 2 transformation entered the series, but still it should be taken as a reminder not to be a literalist of every sequence of animation. Storm 23:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

BTCS13 07:03 pm 22 December 2008 (UTC) ok that being said although vegeta may hav had the arcs around his body that was just him powering up his hair was not golden their for he was not a super saiyan so that statement is irellavent or however u spell it. if u watch the video where gohan turned ss2 & then watch when baby took over trunks body they both went threw a powerful emotion & there transformations look exactly the same. Also what if Baby tapped in to something into Goten and allowed him to transform into a SS2.

I know that Vegeta wasn't a Super Saiyan 2 at the time, I even explicitly stated that he hadn't reached even Super Saiyan at that point in the series. All I'm saying is that not everything about an animation needs to be taken so literally. It's an anime, after all. The Perfect Files are official (third-party, but licensed nonetheless) publications that specialize in analysis of this sort of information; they exist to clarify the questions that you are posing. If you have a problem with their content, I'm sure there's some way to contact the publishers with the issue. Storm 00:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

Listen in the Buu Saga when Goten and Trunks were in the room of Spirit and Time Goten and Trunks say "whoh i cant beleve there is a level stronger than a super saiyan.[1]

What they're talking about isn't explicitly made clear. All they say is that they can't believe that there's "something" beyond Super Saiyan. For all we know they could be referring to Full-Power Super Saiyan, or another method of optimizing the power of the Super Saiyan technique, rather than ascending to Super Saiyan 2, etc. Also, I don't own this volume of the manga, but judging from the appearance of the manga volumes I do own, this is a fan scanlation of a Japanese page (thus translated by God knows who). Storm Z Ball talk projects 18:34, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Well it couldent be full power because then it would be there natural state but i know your point. and it says the same thing in the japanese manga but since alot of people dont know japanese. i got an english version of it.

Mastering Full-Power Super Saiyan doesn't mean it becomes the permanent natural state for Saiyans capable of it, it just means that when they assume the Super Saiyan transformation, they can function as they can in their base form, free of the rage and significant burning of energy that would happen to casual users of the transformation. Besides, neither Goten nor Trunks are seen as a Super Saiyan 2 in the manga (or ever, except to the people who would argue for those GT screencaps above), and the Daizenshuu specifically states the two haven't achieved Super Saiyan 2. Storm Z Ball talk projects 19:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

In GT episode 24 - Discovering the Truth, sparks and electricity are clearly coming from Trunks powering up to get Baby out of his body. If that's not sufficient evidence of SSJ2 then I honestly don't know what is. 90.195.202.108 21:56, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Again with the "sparks". In the anime, electric aura is not a definitive trait that indicates Super Saiyan 2. Additionally, the GT Perfect Files lists Goku, Gohan, Vegeta, and Gotenks as those capable of achieving the transformation.-- bulletproof 23:34, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
Name any other time a SSJ1 powers up and produces electricity. It was such a short outburst that the Perfect Files could easily have overlooked it. Not to mention Trunks was very worn out afterwards from using so much power. 90.195.202.108 10:33, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
This isn't about SSJ1 or saiyans for that matter. You are saying that the reason you think Trunks was SSJ2 while he was controlled by Baby is because he had electricity in his aura. Again, in the anime, electric aura is not a definitive trait that indicates Super Saiyan 2. Additionally, with both books written well after the Baby saga, the argument over whether the Perfect Files could have overlooked anything is baseless. This is sounding a lot like a fan just WANTING his favorite character to be be listed, just so that he is listed as a Super Saiyan 2. Well, the fact is that because we have official sources listing the only users of Super Saiyan 2, and you have nothing more than your own put-together thoeries based on what you saw as a fan, Trunks will not be listed on this page as a user of Super Saiyan 2. -- bulletproof 22:16, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Guilsperm


Guys you all make a good point and ok the animation fooled me too. But i guess we have to go by the GT Perfect Files. Would it be cool for our fav characters to be S.S.2? yes but the point is (DBGT is not cannon) even if it was a mix up with the perfect files and they where a S.S.2 it is still non cannon so no matter what they really didn't turn Super Saiyan 2 so i would say just give up. But i will help the firm believers out by saying hey maybe they overlooked it (like the Nappa 4,000) thing and hey can anyone here read japaneise and confirm to all of us what that page above sais? I rest my case.
Goten never became a Super Saiyan 2. There were no indications nor any mention that he achieved Super Saiyan 2. The card is wrong. Dragon Ball cards have had a long history of giving wrong information about power levels and transformations. 98.165.47.90 00:54, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

Look, we have really got to settle this.

All right, I'm saying that Gohan attained SSJ2 form during his ROSAT training because of that flashback scene in Cell's Mighty Breakdown, which clearly showed Gohan turning SSJ2 before he passed out. However, Bulletproof is claiming that he didn't because of the Daizenshuus. Can you please settle this arguement.

Ok, There were some hints that Goku was aware of Gohan's ability to turn SSJ2 during the Cell Games. First off, There's the fact that, when Gohan was transforming into a SSJ2 for the supposed first time, Goku was the only one of the surviving Z-fighters (or anyone at the Cell Games, for that matter) who wasn't surprised at all (He was also seen saying "Atta boy, Gohan", which also implies that he knew what was about to happen, whileas the other Z-fighters were seen having shocked faces.). This is further cemented by the fact that, in Cell's Mighty Breakdown, Goku reflected on their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and Gohan, while exhausted, tried powering back up to SSJ, and not only did he succeed in transforming into SSJ, but he also succeeded in transforming into SSJ2 for a brief second before collapsing (Which explained why Goku was confident that Gohan had a chance to beat Cell.)
Before anyone mentions the Daizenshuu's to try and counter it, I must point out that the same Daizenshuus ALSO said that Nappa had a power level of 4,000 when Goku fought him, which wouldn't have made any sense as that would imply that Goku would have flat out beaten Nappa without resorting to Kaio-Ken (As Goku himself stated that he couldn't even attempt to beat Nappa without using Kaio-Ken.)
The argument regarding the accuracy of the Daizenshuu is ridiculous. More ridiculous than that is the fact that you continue to base your argument on nothing more than your own assumptions and interpretations of so-called "hints". The fact of the matter is that the first time we see Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2 is during his battle with Cell, and that is what will be recorded in the article. Unless you have a better source than your assumptions, this argument is closed. -- bulletproof 18:15, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Not to mention Goku's "Atta boy, Gohan" remark doesn't necessarily indicate that he knows beforehand Gohan is capable of the Super Saiyan 2 transformation. In all probability, the reason Goku says this is because he had faith in Gohan to be the one to defeat Cell in the first place, and seeing him become a Super Saiyan 2 confirms this belief. Storm Z Ball talk projects 19:09, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
Speaking of which, I noticed that you kinda allowed the so called "filler scene" to be a quote for SSJ2's article. I'm wondering why you didn't think it was all right to use the scene where Goku recalls Gohan transforming into SSJ2 as a source is all right, but using the same scene as a quote for the article is perfectly acceptable? I mean, doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of claiming that Gohan achieved SSJ2 when 16 was klled by Cell?
Goku said, "I knew he had hidden strengths, but I never knew he would ascend to this level." Goku did not say, "I saw him ascend to this level in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber." -- Nonoitall talk contr 11:24, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
Sure, he didn't explicitly state it, but he said he never knew that Gohan's level would be this high. I mean, Goku and even Piccolo doubted that Gohan would last long against fourth form Frieza, even WITH his hidden powers, and seeing how Piccolo could sense Frieza's full power in his fourth form (he mentioned he doubts Vegeta would be able to beat him, which that doubt turned out to be quite sound), that's saying a lot. In order for that line to even make any sense, he had to have sensed that Gohan had the capability to turn SSJ2 (even IF that wasn't named at the time.). Just because it isn't explicitly said doesn't mean it didn't happen. Implication does exist. —This unsigned comment was made by 66.32.217.159 (talkcontribs) on 00:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Goku's statement does not imply that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. It states that Goku was aware of Gohan's hidden strengths, and that Gohan exceeded Goku's expectations when he became a Super Saiyan 2 in his fight with Cell. -- Nonoitall talk contr 07:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Animated image

I notice that there is an animated .gif in this article. Animated images are known to distract from content. For that very reason and the quality drop most wiki completely deny use of .gif format images for screenshots. Is there any real reason to put that in the article. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 25, 2008 @ 04:44 (UTC)

I agree with Daniel. gif image use should be denied in this wikia. -- bulletproof 05:06, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

First, Full-Power Super Saiyan

SS2AJB Alright I'll accept the idea that Goten and Trunks never used Super Saiyan 2. I'm over it now. What I do want to put up, however, is that the Saiyan must first have achieved the Full-Power Super Saiyan. I mean Gohan was already in the Full Power Super Saiyan state and when Perfect Cell killed Android 16, Gohan became angry and transformed into Super Saiyan 2. Shouldn't that be put up?

So basically just because Gohan was a FPSSJ when he transformed into a Super Saiyan 2 you automatically assume that the Full-Power Super Saiyan state is required for a Super Saiyan 2 transformation? Well according to the Daizenshuu, Goku and Gohan are the only Saiyans to achieve the FPSSJ state. However the Daizenshuu also states that Vegeta can transform into a Super Saiyan 2. (You can look at the chart in the above discussions) Now if Goku and Gohan are the only FPSSJ users, why is Vegeta listed as a Super Saiyan 2? The bottom line is that the Full-Power Super Saiyan state is not required to ascend into a Super Saiyan 2.-- bulletproof 05:31, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

SS2AJB So if it says, "the Saiyan must have achieve an intense emotional upheaval", how do we know what state he is in? If a Saiyan was in his normal state and experience an intense emotional upheaval, he would become a Super Saiyan. But what state would he have to be in to become a Super Saiyan 2. If he would be in his normal state, experiencing an intense emotional upheaval, and transform into Super Saiyan 2 for the first time when he couldn't even reach the Super Saiyan state, that wouldn't make much sense.

Yeah a lot of things don't make much sense. Yet the Daizenshuu still states Gohan and Goku are the only Full Power Super Saiyans. Now if this is true and Vegeta is capable of becoming a Super Saiyan 2 himself, then it is clear Full Power Super Saiyan is not a requirement to achieve the Super Saiyan 2 form.
Or it could just be that Vegeta also mastered Super Saiyan in the following seven years. I find it hard to fathom taht he wouldn't, to be honest. It also should be noted that a Full-Power Super Saiyan makes Ascended and Ultra obsolete, allowing the Super Saiyan to fight at full power without expanding their body mass, and therefore an unmastered Super Saiyan is much weaker in comparison. This would explain why Vegeta needed another 7 years to attain SS2, though.Xfing 11:47, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Wait first of all there is 1 form in beetween fpssj and ssj2 when 16 was killed gohan turned into and enraged ssj when Goku was killed then gohan turned ssj2 Vegerot 18:33, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Now if what you are trying to dispute is the clarity of the statement, "the Saiyan must have achieve an intense emotional upheaval", then I agree that this statement isn't quite clear. However, the statement currently in the article doesn't read that. It actually states, "In order to achieve this transformation, the Saiyan must have experienced an intense emotional upheaval, much like the original Super Saiyan transformation.", thus implying that in order to become a Super Saiyan 2 one must go through feelings similar to what is required to become a Super Saiyan 1. However, the Daizenshuu doesn’t quite specifically detail this either. What we could change the note to, is to have it read something like, "In order to achieve this transformation, the Saiyan must have experienced an intense emotional upheaval, much like the original Super Saiyan transformation but to a greater extent." This implies that more anger, purity, etc. is required to achieve this form than for Super Saiyan 1. That would be closer to what the Daizenshuu says anyway.
Actually I don’t think I’m being quite clear myself. Let me try to explain now that I think I understand your argument. Of course that in order to achieve Super Saiyan 2 for the very first time it is obvious that Super Saiyan 1 is required. I’m not disputing that. What I was disputing was the statement that implied that the Full-Power Super Saiyan state was required in order to become a Super Saiyan 2, even for the first time. That is 100% false as I explained above. The Saiyan must be at Super Saiyan 1 in order to become a Super Saiyan 2 for the first time. I continue to say, "for the first time", because it has been demonstrated before in the anime that a Saiyan can bypass Super Saiyan levels to transform directly into a specific level after having already previously achieved the form. Now as far as Full-Power Super Saiyan is concerned, Full-Power Super Saiyan is not a form, it is not its own Super Saiyan level, and unlike Super Saiyan Stage 2 or 3 (USSJ), it is not a stage of Super Saiyan 1 (it is not Stage 4). Full-Power Super Saiyan is the literal concept of making Super Saiyan 1 the Saiyan’s base form. Vegeta notes, "They look like Super Saiyans... but I don't feel the energy...! It's like... it's their natural state... " And again, the only ones to actually do anything with the concept, as the Daizenshuu notes, are Goku and Gohan. Now because FPSSJ is a state of being, so to speak, of the Super Saiyan 1 form, then it doesn’t matter whether the user is SSJ or FPSSJ, it still is Super Saiyan 1. They are one in the same. It’s just that one is an actual form and the other is a concept. It is only for completeness' sake that the Daizenshuu and this Wiki along with millions of other fan sites actually catalogue it with the rest of the Super Saiyan levels. -- bulletproof 08:19, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
It doesn't seem too complicated to me. In both cases (SS1 and SS2) the user has to be overwhelmed with desperation over a situation that he is unable to cope with in his current state. FPSS (which is just a well-trained SS1, really) doesn't have any baring on this at all, and as bulletproof pointed out, characters who have not achieved FPSS have achieved SS2, so FPSS would certainly not be a prerequisite for SS2. -- Nonoitall talk contr 07:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

SS2AJB Okay so how about we say "the Saiyan must first achieve the Super Saiyan form" instead of Full-Power Super Saiyan?

Did you read my full reply?-- bulletproof 19:38, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
Well, logic does dictate that one does need FPSSJ to transform to SSJ2, seeing as all Saiyans who transformed to SS2 had already been FPSSJ by the point of the transformation. That doesn't mean it's an actual necessity, however, so we can't put it in the article. I wouldn't take the Daizenshuu so literally, though, especially when it says that only Goku and Gohan attained the state. Vegeta and Future Trunks clearly worked on their Super Saiyan forms in the same way during their second visit to the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, as in the manga they fight the Cell Juniors in regular Super Saiyan. Xfing 04:04, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

GT

Was this form completely written out of the GT series? Malikarcanum 17:26, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

It was rarely used through the series, but it wasn't completely written out. -- bulletproof 02:14, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

In what episodes was it used? The only time i saw something even remotely similar was when Goku was transforming into a Super Saiyan 3, you see it for about 2 seconds, and then he just bypasses it.Malikarcanum 13:54, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

He briefly used this form to deflect Rildo's attacks as shown in this video at 0:37 -- bulletproof 02:34, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
The link is broken... :\ Piconoe 21:22, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

SSJ2 Gotenks

Its is confirmed by the makers that he reached SSJ2 but didn't use the form i been in touch with them talking about Budokai Tenkaichi 4 and FO (Which are confirmed to be made in future) so he is a known userStaff Sergeant Jack Jackson 22:30, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

A known user is someone who is known to use a technique. Gotenks has never once made use of the Super Saiyan 2 transformation. Not in canon material, and not in video game spinoffs. He only ever uses the first and third levels of Super Saiyan. The people behind Dragon Ball video games are not as reliable as Toei, Viz or even Funimation, but even taking the Budokai Tenkaichi series into consideration, Gotenks has no Super Saiyan 2 transformation in these games either. Even if Bandai or Atari include a Super Saiyan 2 form in Budokai Tenkaichi 4 (as they included Great Ape forms for characters who are never seen transforming into such in source material), the fact remains that Budokai Tenkaichi 4 is not out, nor has it properly been announced to my knowledge, so as the franchise currently stands, Gotenks has virtually never made use of Super Saiyan 2, thus he is not a known user of the technique. It's clear that he is capable of the form since he is a user of Super Saiyan 3, but otherwise Super Saiyan 2 is absent from his repertoire. Storm 22:46, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I Didn't say he appears in BT4 with his SSJ2 but he confirmed to transform into it while he is powering up to SSJ3 so he doesn't really use it so he is a known users like makers said.Staff Sergeant Jack Jackson 01:50, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Gotenks bypasses the transformation when he becomes Super Saiyan 3; his name appearing on the list of known users is far less credible than the others who are actually shown to make use of the form. It's similar to the case with Gogeta, who is shown as a Super Saiyan 4 in Dragon Ball GT. Does that mean he is a user of the Super Saiyan 2 transformation? No, because it can only be verified that he has used the first and fourth forms, whereas it can only be verified that Gotenks has used the first and third forms. Storm 02:43, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
To be clear on this, Gotenks is listed in the Perfect Files and the Daizenshuu as being capable of achieving the transformation. (See the chart above in the SSJ2 Trunks/Goten discussion section) For the sake of completeness, I believe this should be noted in the article. As for Budokai Tenkaichi 4, the Sparking! series, which is what the Tenkaichi series is known in Japan, has ran its course. It has been dropped in favor of the Burst Limit franchise which returns to the original Budokai fighting style, which I believe is far superior. -- bulletproof 04:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I'm not saying Gotenks isn't capable of achieving Super Saiyan 2, in fact I literally stated that it's perfectly clear Gotenks is capable of the transformation, but he isn't known to use it, hence why he is not a known user. It should be noted somewhere in the article that he is capable of the transformation but has never used it, because this is an interesting fact, but as far as the purpose of the Known users section goes, his name doesn't have the credibility that Goku, Vegeta or Gohan have. Storm 04:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
SSJ2:
- Son Goku
- Son Gohan
- Demon Prince Vegeta
- Gotenks
Even though it is noted here? I mean, I could go either way on this. I'm just supplying the facts. I also want to hear more of your points.-- bulletproof 04:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
I know he's listed there as such, and again I'm not saying Gotenks is incapable of the transformation. Even without the Perfect File listing him as having achieved Super Saiyan 2, this is still evident from the fact that Gotenks becomes Super Saiyan 3 during the series (and it is highly unlikely that Gotenks' only options in this department are exclusive to assuming either the first or third transformations). So the fact that Gotenks is capable of the second level of Super Saiyan is almost undebatable, even without taking the Perfect File into consideration. The point I'm trying to convey is that even if Gotenks is capable of achieving Super Saiyan 2, he doesn't. He either powers up to Super Saiyan, or he basically cranks it up all the way (all the way, in manga canonicity anyways). He does not ever make use of the second transformation, nor is he ever even seen as such. I think I said it best with the argument that he isn't known to use the transformation, and thus is not a known user of it. But again, I think that the interesting fact that Gotenks is capable of the form, but chooses to completely ignore it is worth mentioning in the prose of the article. Storm 04:55, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Then in that sense, I agree. -- bulletproof 05:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Maybe to avoid the whole issue, we could try coming up with a different name for that section that wouldn't imply that the persons listed actually used the technique? (And then in the case of characters like Gotenks, a note could be added that the transformation wasn't actually seen in the series.) -- Nonoitall talk contr 11:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Can't tell

do the people that go into ssj2 have longer hair or does it stay the same length as ssj1Watshisname 04:20, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

It depends on the individual. For instance, Vegeta's hair stays the same length, but the spikes in his hair become far more defined, whereas Gohan's hair, in every "verified" use of this form, nearly doubles in length.--Malikarcanum 21:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

In terms of hairstyle for certain characters such as Goku or Gohan, their SSJ2 forms are also differentiated from SSJ1 by the number number of hair bangs. For example, Goku has only three bangs in SSJ2, while in SSJ1 he has around 4-5. Adult Gohan has only one long bang in SSJ2, while in SSJ1 he has two. -- bulletproof 03:39, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Difference Ascended Saiyan and SSJ2

While watching the Fusion saga, SSJ2 is called as a different name for Ascended Super Saiyan. Here in the wiki they're two separate things. What's up with that? —This unsigned comment was made by 78.21.236.164 (talkcontribs) on 17:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

IIRC, the state was never really referred to by any names in the Fusion Saga. In the Majin Buu Saga, Goku referred to it as "a Super Saiyan that has ascended past a Super Saiyan". Is that what you mean? -- Nonoitall talk contr 07:26, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Piccolo referred to SSJ2 as an "Ascended Saiyan" in the episode "Super Saiyan 3?" Just FYI. Malikarcanum 15:02, September 6, 2009 (UTC)

I also don't get what goku meant calling Super Saiya-jin 2 a Ascended Super Saiya-jin but goku says in japanese subtitles he calls the form Super Saiya-jin 2 before he went to Super Saiya-jin 3 and gohan called this form "A level beyond a super saiya-jin" at the world tournement. (SuperSaiyan4BurstMode)

gotenks DOES go ss2

it's for two panels only though, see:

Ghh.gif

it clearly shows gotenks with lightning around his ki aura, and his hair is spikier than ss1, both chacterstics of super sayian 2. Jabberwockxeno 20:46, November 11, 2009 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 Gogeta

SS2 Gogeta

Super Saiyan 2 Gogeta

In Raging Blast, it has been shown that Gogeta is capable of going Super Saiyan 2. This is enforced by the fact that both Goku and Vegeta are fully capable of using the form. It is unmistakable that in Raging Blast, Gogeta is in Super Saiyan 2 due to Raging Blast's very prominent and distinct Super Saiyan 2 lightning effects. A picture proving my point has been posted to the right. Piconoe 05:12, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

In Raging Blast, Gogeta is Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan 2. This is a fact, not an opinion. -- Kamehameha.10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:19, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
Then please explain why he has the lightning around him. No other character that is not Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 (ignoring Cell since he's still in debate whether or not his Saiyan genes gives him access to the Super Saiyan forms) has that lightning effect. Piconoe 05:37, November 23, 2009 (UTC)
Try again, x10. In Raging Blast, Gogeta is simply labeled "Super Gogeta". There is no clear distinction as to whether or not he is Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2. This is a fact, not an opinion. 66.190.79.250 05:44, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

It's Super Saiyan Gogeta simply because of two reasons:

The game simply states as Super Gogeta, which is the common name for Super Saiyan Gogeta;
When Gogeta charges his aura, its sound effects are different from those of a Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3 (or from Cell's final form), even though he posesses lightning surrouding his aura. - Vegeta - San "The Prince of all Saiyans? Shouldn't I be the King of all Saiyans? Hmmm.... 14:55, November 23, 2009 (UTC)"

Additionally, both Trunks and Goten have instances in the anime where their auras briefly spark while powering up. -- Kamehameha.10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 22:09, November 23, 2009 (UTC)

There's a difference between electricity upon powering up and electricity during the whole fight, like Gogeta has. Also, if you toss to the side the electricity and say he is simply Super Saiyan, then you'd need to go into the Super Saiyan article and say that it's possible to look exactly like a Super Saiyan 2 and still be Super Saiyan and when Goku/Gohan/Vegeta/etc get the electricity, it is possible they are still Super Saiyan. What you are saying is that the electricity at all times does not denote Super Saiyan 2, and is mearly a pure coincidence that whenever someone says they are in Super Saiyan 2, they have an electricity and up till that point whenever they didn't have it.
Saying that Gogeta is Super Saiyan in Raging Blast completely destroys the foundation you have on Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, making the electricity not a factor of Super Saiyan 2 anymore and just a slight spiking of hair. So either fix the Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 articles to accommodate this new discovery or admit that Gogeta is Super Saiyan 2 in Raging Blast. Your pick. Piconoe 01:17, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

You are overlooking a great deal of information, such as the appearance (there are features other than sparks), the aura, the attitude of the users, and, most importantly, the definitive naming of some characters as Super Saiyan 2, and others, namely Gogeta, as Super Saiyan. For more information on the differences between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2, please consult their articles. For more information on Gogeta and his officially recognized (that is, not fan-speculated) forms, consult his article.

Once again, it is a fact that Gogeta never uses the Super Saiyan 2 form, and this is not up for debate. Sorry for any inconvenience. -- Kamehameha.10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:06, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

It is never clearly stated that Gogeta is a Super Saiyan nor a Super Saiyan 2, so it is all just speculation. The lighting that surrounds his body is just there because of his power not because of any transformation.--TheDarkPrince 02:20, November 24, 2009 (UTC)TheDarkPrince
Just as TheDarkPrince said, it is never stated weither he is Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2. Saying he is one of the other based on the name Super Gogeta is speculation, not fact. The fact that he is in either Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 due to the golden hair, but not Super Saiyan 3 due to the lack of long hair is fact, not speculation. The lightning being simply due to his power is not fact, but speculation. The fact he does have lightning exactly like that of Super Saiyan 2 is fact, not speculation. So we can all assume due to all these facts, and ignoring the speculation, that Super Gogeta is either Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan 2 electricity, or Super Gogeta is Super Saiyan 2. It's your choice, but to say that a Super Saiyan with Super Saiyan 2 electricity being simply Super Saiyan sounds an awful lot like speculation to me. Piconoe 02:34, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
200px-Gogeta photo
Super Gogeta BT3
Also, it could just be the models they are using, but Raging Blast Super Gogeta's hair looks like a Super Saiyan 2's hair, simply because it is purely going up and in, unlike in these two pictures.
Gogeta is stated to be Super Saiyan in several official publications. The lightning is not "exactly like that of Super Saiyan 2", that is simply your opinion. Super Saiyan 2 forms have in fact varied greatly in appearance throughout the series, including times where the form produces no lightning at all, but I guess someone using your unique brand of logic would just say that they aren't Super Saiyan 2 when they don't have lightning. Here's the deal: if you can find a reference from an official source, then you have an argument. If all you have to go on is strong feelings, then the theoretical form has no place here. Unless such a source is found, please drop this speculation, or move it to a forum, since it no longer pertains to this article. Thank you. -- Kamehameha.10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:56, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
If you can show one of these official publications then i will believe you, but the fact is that he is Super Gogeta not ss1 nor ss2, as far as his lightning goes, the lightning seems to come from power, when goku transformed into a Super Saiyan against Freiza he had lightning surrounding him, his power which is greater than a SS3's is there only because of his power.--TheDarkPrince 03:02, November 24, 2009 (UTC)User:TheDarkPrince
@10xKHH -- Yes, he's stated to be a Super Saiyan in several official publications. That is, several official publications made long before the release of Raging Blast. Until an official source explicitly states that Gogeta's appearance in Raging Blast was in fact a decorated Super Saiyan (1) OR that he is being shown as a Super Saiyan 2, BOTH sides are doing the speculating, not just ours. How's that for a "unique brand of logic"?
@TheDarkPrince -- There's a difference between lightning depicted during powering-up or clashing sequences and lightning emanating from the body and you know it. 66.190.79.250 03:09, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
I agree with 66.190.79.250 on this one, the fact that it has not been officially stated in any official publication that the Gogeta in Raging Blast is Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2. I rewatched Fusion Reborn and the Super Gogeta there is indeed Super Saiyan. The tips of his hair, most notably around the circumference of his hair, relaxed and point out and there is an absence of Super Saiyan 2 electricity. So in the publications that say Super Gogeta is simply Super Saiyan is correct. Though in Raging Blast, his hair becomes more raised and he gains the electricity, so it is likely that he is now Super Saiyan 2. He is still just named Super Gogeta, not Super Saiyan Gogeta, so just looking at the name could make it go either way. Therefore you cannot say that no official publications saying he is Super Saiyan 2 in Raging Blast means he is still just Super Saiyan, since there are very notable changes in his appearance. Now, like 66.190.79.250 said, there is no official publication saying he is now Super Saiyan 2 in Raging Blast, but it is still possible and until that publication comes out, it cannot be snuffed out as baseless speculation. Piconoe 19:57, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Like I said, we'll add it on if an official source calls it Super Saiyan 2. -- Kamehameha.10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 20:27, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Alright, but due to these discontinuities, any listing of Super Gogeta in Raging Blast will not be listed as simply Super Saiyan (1) until an official source calls it Super Saiyan (1). Piconoe 21:16, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
super gogeta is a super saiyan grade 2 as the name implies super vegeta is not a super saiyan 2 he is ssg 2 VegetaIsTheBestSuper Saiyan 3 13:55, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
Super-vegeta-1-

super vegeta

Hair Raising Discrepancy...

This section of the article directly contradicts the article image posted in the top corner.


Passage reads as follows: "The golden hair brought on by the original transformation becomes longer and rigid; any hair that hung loose in the Super Saiyan transformation (in the case of Goku or Gohan, because Vegeta lacks any strands in front of his face, as does Gotenks) is now raised."

In the picture, Gohan has a large chunk of hair in his face! 71.162.247.185 21:08, March 4, 2010 (UTC)

Age-old though this may be, I'd like to point out that the above passage is true once the phrase save for a single lock is added. Vegeta and Gotenks, as above mentioned, lack any bangs in the first place, hence why this isn't observed for them.
I made that sound odd...Sanokal K-T (talk) 03:05, June 2, 2014 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks

I think there MIGHT be an error on Future Trunk's assumed SS2 form. While it's obvious that he never gained the form in the anime, the Budokai games suggest he did. Dimps (developers of the Budokai series and Burst Limit), might have meant the Ultra Super Saiyan form because I was browsing through Dragonball Z merchandise and found this[2]. It's Future Trunks's Ultra Super Saiyan form, but listed as "SS 2" (Super Saiyan 2). In the Budokai games, Dimps probably mistaken Future Trunk's Ultra Super Saiyan form for Super Saiyan 2. Even though when you transform into it, nothing really changes. I just thought I'd let anyone know about this. --User:AngusNitro41 - May 13th 2010


It's a broken link, but if you're referring to the Jakks Pacific SS2 Trunks action figure, it came out long after the release of Budokai 2, the first game with Trunks' form discrepancy. Malikarcanum 01:59, July 3, 2010 (UTC)

Translation

Why does it say in the alternate names that one name is Sūpā Saiya-jin Tsū? I know all the numbers in Japanese and the Japanese word for 2 is 'ni' (pronounced nee). Surely, if this supposed to be a Japanese name, it should be the correct Japanese number. (Sorry for the bolding above.)  SSWerty  08:23, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

ok is it me or do people not care about super sayian 2?

ok so gotenks skips it. when goku fights kid buu he skips it. brolly skips it in raging blast 2. goku gt skips it. i mean why?

Theres a reason why they dont do ssj2 always.

Okay first goku vs kid buu did use ssj2 but doesnt always have a lighting aura then he went ssj3 2nd Gotenks didnt know how to use ssj2 but can use it 3rd Goku in gt as a kid he cant use his ssj powers to thier max he can ssj1 but ssj2 is pushing the limit and ssj3 he definately cant keep for like 2 mins thats al I got.

Goten & Trunks SSJ 2

If you look up power levels on google for Z & GT you will see that goten and trunks are stronger than SSJ 2 gohan

This is the link http://www.angelfire.com/ct2/freeza64/power.html

It will show while goten & trunks in super 17 saga they have a power level of SSJ Goten: 63 500 000 SSJ Trunks: 63 800 000 SSJ goten = 63 500 000

SSJ trunks 63 800 00

Goten & Trunks SSJ 2

If you look up power levels on google for Z & GT you will see that goten and trunks are stronger than SSJ 2 gohan

This is the link http://www.angelfire.com/ct2/freeza64/power.html

It will show while goten & trunks in super 17 saga they have a power level of SSJ Goten: 63 500 000 SSJ SSJ trunks 63 800 00 while gohans kamehameha was 40 000 000

Please sign your posts. Also, those are just some fan guesses, and not official statements from publishers/producers. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 07:13, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah thats true it doesnt even make sence with their power levels.Lssj4 21:19, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Goku and Vegeta fighting Boohan

It says they're SSj2 there, but where's the evidence? Just assumption? Goku doesn't have the appearance of a SSj2, and just because there are sparks around Vegeta for a second doesn't mean he's a SSj2 either. "Goku didn't look SSj2 the whole time he was fighting Majin Vegeta." Well, we know he was supposed to be a SSj2 because that's what the manga shows us. "Sparks always mean SSj2". No, they don't. Look at Nappa and Vegetto. So, all in all, I don't see how they were SSj2.KamikazePyro 05:20, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

See appearance section. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:43, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

I actually agree with KamikazePyro (that is on Goku and Vegeta being SS1 not SS2) while Vegeta isn't easily noticeable Goku is easily distinguishable as an SS1 not 2. After they powered up to attract Pure Buu as SS1's Goku went SS2 a little while afterwards as the lightning and the hair are clearly noticeable Goku in epsiode 279 and Vegeta became one in episode 281 if you compare them towards the fight with Super Buu the difference is noteable.Rhm 89 09:16, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

i can tell when vegeta is asuper saiyan 2 its quite easy his hair changes none when he becomes ss but when he changes into ss2 his hair has a couple more spikes and it does look like kakarot is a ss2 Ultiimate VegitoVegeto Ssj4-1-Ssj4vegetaSs4GOGETATalkcontribs 07:53, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

I can tell also that is why I'm sure it's SS1 not 2 versus Super Buu can you upload 2 official pictures so we can compare them?Rhm 89 08:20, November 12, 2010 (UTC).

how about i use my lazy flash and dont Ultiimate VegitoVegeto Ssj4-1-Ssj4vegetaSs4GOGETATalkcontribs 08:29, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

You of course don't have to I was just asking, it could really help this disscussion if you did though (I would but I'm the worse with computers so if someone can do it for me I would be appreciative of the helpRhm 89 08:37, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

it'll take awhile (i have to find or make a good pic of super saiyan and ss2 so ya) but I'll do it Ultiimate VegitoVegeto Ssj4-1-Ssj4vegetaSs4GOGETATalkcontribs 08:41, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help a picture of Goku and Vegeta during the fight against Ultimate Buu and Kid Buu would be preferable Rhm 89 08:57, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

well I'll have to say its hard to find a good pick of vegeta but here it is
Goku and vegeta
Ultiimate VegitoVegeto Ssj4-1-Ssj4vegetaSs4GOGETATalkcontribs 02:56, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
Vegeta vs buu
Super saiyan vegeta

In movie 10, Gohan isn't a Super Saiyan 2, he's a Super Saiyan. Versus Darbula, Gohan is Super Saiyan, not a Super Saiyan 2. 151.60.12.173 22:24, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Actually no, you can tell by the appearance. These issues have already been discussed thoroughly in the past. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:05, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

For me there is no doubts , Gohan was Super Saiyan against Broly and against Dabura .

Please sign your posts. And I'm sorry but you are in the minority on a community-decision-based site. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:28, February 5, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I forgot. I really do not interest me, for me it is.. --151.60.12.49 18:52, February 6, 2011 (UTC)


In DBGT, Gohan NEVER turns into a Super Saiyan 2, he's always Super Saiyan. Who is the genius who wrote this thing? --151.60.12.49 22:22, February 6, 2011 (UTC)

SSJ2 Gohan in Hyperbolic Time Chamber

For Goku's flashback of Gohan going SSJ2 in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, here is a link to the scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tADIMuzGtx0&feature=related and here is the whole episode: http://www.watch-dragonball.com/watch/392-Dragonball_Z_Episode_172.html Jeangabin666 18:10, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

SO KAKAROT THE TABLE HAS BEEN SEETTT NOW LET USSS BEGINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

Thereotical users

The users list includes Gotenks(thereoticaly) thus shouldn't we include all obivious thereotical users even if they aren't mentioned in the Dragon Ball franchise as thereotical users? We include Gotenks because he is mentioned in the Daizenhensu (an unofficial guide book to Dragon Ball) that he can use Super Saiyan 2 but didn't in the manga and anime.They say this because he transforms into a Super Saiyan 3. So shouldn't Gogeta be included thereoticaly ass he transforms into a Super Saiyan 4, especialy seeing as the fusees of Gotenks (Trunks and Goten) both can't go Super Saiyan 2 but Gogeta's fusees (Goku and Vegeta) both can. Now, if going by the ladder theory's logic then thereotically Vegito also can be a user as his fusees are aalso Goku and Vegeta. But of course there will be doubters of my 2 theories as never Gogeta or Vegito's Super Saiyan 2 forms were mentioned in the Daizenhensu but the Daizenhensu is technically unofficial. On the other hand none of them actualy transformed into Super Saiyan 2's so none of them absoleutly need to be on the list however alot of people would like to pu them on. it's ever Gotenks, Gogeta and Vegito (or at least Gotenks and Gogeta) or no fusions. You choose. —This unsigned comment was made by 99.244.107.179 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

That's quite an ultimatum considering you didn't even ask for an explanation, anon. Perhaps you should read the manual of style before jumping to such conclusions. There's a link on your talk page from May suggesting you do so for editing guidelines. The pertinent information that you would have read is that anything on this site needs a source, pure speculation is not allowed. Therefore since Gotenks' SS2 form has a source (type 4-3, authorized guide) it can be in an article, but since the SS2 forms of Gogeta and Vegito do not have a source, they cannot be in an article. -- SSJ4 Goku(5) 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 23:49, July 5, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to be so ultimative if that's a word but what i'm saying is who wrote the daizenhensu anyway if it wasn't akira toryama or a guy from toei animation the writer has no claim on the dragon ball merchandise and so it could no should be cconsidered non canon to a high degree and thus would be a non official source,Also who is anon that's not my name. —This unsigned comment was made by 99.244.107.179 (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

First off, you need to sign your posts, it let's everyone know who's talking, and can be done by typing four tildes after your message. "Anon" on internet forums refers to an anonymous user, someone who has not made an account. The Daizenshuu was a comprehensive guide of official material put together in correspondence with (though not the direct supervision of) Toriyama. It is indeed licensed Dragon Ball merchandise, as opposed to things like the unofficial Pojo DBZ guide. The canonocity is fairly low, but still official. You can see more information on what qualifies a source as official in the manual of style. -- SSJ4 Goku(5) 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 01:01, July 11, 2011 (UTC)
Oh sorry i just thought it wasn't canon okay.

Ironically I was thinking the same thing. Even though it doesn't state anywhere that Gogeta and Vegito can use Super Saiyan 2 I know that we should put them down mainly because both Goku and Vegeta both could use Super Saiyan 2 and Gogeta and Vegito may have not wanted to use Super Saiyan 2 being that their Super Saiyan forms were more than capable of handeling whoever they were fighting at that moment. They could have had the forms but simply not wanted to use them plus alot of fans want it to be on the page. I know I am just wasting my time but I think this is something to take into consederation. That's Dr. Kazi to you!!----- Objection!

Full-Power Super Saiyan 2

What if Goku or Vegeta mastered the Super Saiyan 2 such that they could stay in the form for days by reducing ki consumption to negligible amounts?

Will be as strong as Super Saiyan 3 or weaker?


There is no full powered super saiyan 2. it is just the same as there is no full power super saiyan 3, or 4. The regular super saiyan is the only branch you can fully master full power. Kingcold6ColdSon&FatherRipto22475KingColdNVKingColdHoldingTrunksSword 19:21, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

well it was never stated that you cant achieve fpssj2 so it is possible.

That it was not said you can't doesn't equal being said you can. SSj2 is not mastered, it's an improvement on the original SSj, which was the only one you can master Xfing (talk) 15:39, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

Would Goten and Trunks eventually reach SSJ2

They would of trained harder for goku and it never says they stopped training just slacked a bit which still means they trained just not as hard. Even at the end of DBZ you see goten training with Goku and seem to be getting stronger instead of weaker.


I want your view because i see them to get stronger instead of weaker


Well, they are capable of achieving super saiyan 2, as Gohan is also a half breed suceeeded in transforming it. But it is not shown in the anime or manga that they are able to. References show that, they are unable to go past a super saiyan in their un-fused state. But it is possible though they can. The fact of requirements for attaining the transformation also points to them not having it, and the requirements are having an emotional outrage to get it (Ex: Gohan going SSJ2 at the sight of 16's head being crushed). It is also capable for vegeta to achieve Super Saiyan 3, but he never went SSj3 in the series. It is kind of the same concept. Kingcold6ColdSon&FatherRipto22475KingColdNVKingColdHoldingTrunksSword 19:19, August 28, 2011 (UTC)

Goku is not the first to...

Hello, Super Saiyan 2 is the only Super Saiyan transformation Goku was not the first to use. He was the first Super Saiyan. He was the first Super Saiyan 3. And he was the first Super Saiyan 4. Not the first Super Saiyan 2, as Gohan was the first. Trivia maybe?? 70.129.43.168 04:45, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Ripto22475

He was not the first to use Super Saiyan, the original Super Saiyan was the first. Jeangabin666 13:17, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

That would be true, except The Original Super Saiyan was not shown. It was only a myth. The series did not show the orginal super saiyan transform. Goku was the first to tranform into a super saiyan in the whole series (DB, DBZ, DBGT). The orginal super saiyan does not count he wasn't in any of the series. So it is correct to say Goku is the first super saiyan. 166.205.10.238 15:09, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Ripto22475

It's not a trivia.. if you think like this then why not adding in a trivia section that King Piccolo was the first character in the series seen with green skin, that Piccolo was the first one in DBZ, that Bardock is the first character seen with a red headband, that Gohan is the first character with a white headband, etc.. all this aren't trivia.

Jeangabin666 15:28, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm... I see your point, but you are not seeing mine. I am not debating on whether Goku was the first super saiyan or not. I am debating that he achieved SSJ, SSJ3, and SSJ4 first out of all the characters in DB, DBZ, and DBGT. Yet he was not the first to transform into SSJ2. I am not making random ideas like you said "King Piccolo with green skin", I am making a good point because it is true, is it not? perhaps we should get others opinions on this. 166.205.9.195 15:58, September 2, 2011 (UTC)Ripto22475

The Original Super Saiyan is indeed shown, there's an article for him. -- SSJ4 Goku(5) 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 19:27, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
Yes, you are correct. I know the Original Super saiyan exsist, but this is not my topic. My topic is Goku was no the first to achieve Super saiyan 2, and yet he suceeded in achieving ssj, ss3, ss4 first in the series. The original super saiyan was dead when dragonball happened, was he not? Kingcold6ColdSon&FatherRipto22475KingColdNVKingColdHoldingTrunksSword 21:30, September 2, 2011 (UTC)
Why ignoring the original Super Saiyan being the first Super Saiyan (not Goku)? You want to ignore this part of the story to add a trivia?? Jeangabin666 21:33, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter, but who knows (is Goku dead 100 years after GT? idk, lol)? If the OSS is first seen, he's first seen and that's a fact. If we start saying Goku is the first one in the series who isn't dead, well that's too specific, plus Goku dies too, haha. -- SSJ4 Goku(5) 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 21:36, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Jeangabin666, I am not trying to ignore him, it is just that we did not see him transform into the super saiyan. We saw Goku transform into the first super saiyan after 1000 years (Or 3000, Idk), we saw Gohan transform into the first super saiyan 2, we saw goku transform into the first super saiyan 3, and finally we saw Goku again transform into the first super saiyan 4. We did not witness first hand, the original super saiyan transform.

10XKamehameha, So you are trying to say that this topic is too specific :( ? I do not think it is too specific...? I think I see your point, but I am not debating on who is the first super saiyan. The fact of matter is, in the series timeline, Age 600 (Not sure) to 800 (Not sure), Goku did not accomplish super saiyan 2 first out of ssj, ss3, and ssj4. Kingcold6ColdSon&FatherRipto22475KingColdNVKingColdHoldingTrunksSword 21:47, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

Another thing is Broly, who I believe transformed earlier, but we just didn't see it. That would mean OSS is seen earlier, and Broly happens earlier. -- SSJ4 Goku(5) 10X Ka.me.ha.me.ha ..... talk ..... contrib. 02:11, September 3, 2011 (UTC)
We have actual guides made specifially for GT which clearly say the SS2 form isn't used in the show: the Perfect Files. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 16:57, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fan

Hi im fan of dragon ball z caartooni want that after deafting freeza so why cartoon will canot go forward because we can see the more transformation of goki different stages of goki in supersayain level. My request is that please make different stages of supersayain level of goku

Quote for 'Usage and Power'

How about this quote to go under the 'Usage and Power' section?

"He did it right. He increased his strength without losing speed"
Future Trunks

GohanGoingIntoARockAndroid16Ep184Ssj2EpicgohanscreamgohanGohan ssj2GohanSSIIVsCellNV 12:59, April 26, 2012 (UTC)
It doesn't seem to be a bad idea, considering that pretty much describes what Super Saiyan 2 transformation is about. - KILL YOU! 14:08, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 17:03, April 26, 2012 (UTC)

Isn't this quote from the FUNi dub? They tend to be quite liberal with manga statements Xfing (talk) 15:40, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

About the 2x part

Do you really think it's appropriate to state that Super Saiyan is 2x Full Power Super Saiyan in power like it was a fact? I know that the Super Exciting Guide lists it as such, but let's get real - manga evidence suggests that the growth would have to be much more than that. I don't mind this figure staying in the article, but I think it should be changed from sounding like a fact to explicitly stating it came only from the SEG. SEG, like any other guidebook is not canon, and can be accepted as a guideline but doesn't have to. Xfing (talk) 22:11, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Both the Super Exciting Guide and the Daizenshuu state this as a fact. We have citations right after it is stated here so that everyone knows where it came from. Readers like yourself who do not believe the guides for you own reasons have the option to disregard it based on the source posted. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 00:26, March 20, 2013 (UTC)
I want to go with the OP here. The wiki, as a whole, consistantly states Manga as fact ONLY, including information from the anime, movies, and guides but states where the information comes from and often stating that it is inconsistant or unstated. The exception to this is every Super Saiyan advancement page, the most poorly maintained pages on the wiki. What is so wrong with saying 'although never stated in the manga or anime, the Super Exciting Guide and Daizenshuu list SSJ 2 as double the strength of a Full Power Saiyan.' The fans spend so much time theorycrafting super saiyan transformaitons that they begin to believe their own theories as facts. The only facts are the ones stated in the manga. Degrelescence (talk) 03:15, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Please read the Manual of Style. You have misinterpreted our site policies. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:50, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't:
"Canonicity
In in-universe sections, there are several sources of information that can be used. They are arranged in order of authoritativeness. If a more authoritative source directly conflicts with a less authoritative source, the more authoritative source is used, and a separate side note should be made about the conflict. If a less authoritative source includes information that was absent in more authoritative sources but that does not directly conflict with those sources, that source is used and a note should be made about the omission in the more authoritative sources. The usable sources, in order of authoritativeness are as follows:
  1. The original Dragon Ball manga
  2. The anime series, including Dragon Ball, Dragon Ball Z, and Dragon Ball GT
  3. Movies and TV specials
  4. Authorized guides and statements as follows:
    1. Statements by Akira Toriyama (author of the original manga series)
    2. Statements by Toei (producer of the anime and author of the GT portion of the series)
    3. Authorized guides (discussion may be required to gauge relative importance)
  5. Video games
Degrelescence (talk) 03:19, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

That is indeed an excerpt from the Manual of Style. Just as it states, a reference to the source has been provided in the article. If we followed every sentence in a filler episode description with ", but this did not take place in the manga, it was only in anime episode...", then our articles would all be twice and long with no extra info. The reference template exists specifically to say where you got your info without destroying the article. You click the little number link and the full source description is available in a neatly collected group at the bottom of the page. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 03:36, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

That's a pretty silly response. Filler episodes are listed as exactly that. It is self evident. Also, we aren't even talking about events, we are talking about facts, or the lack thereof. You are stating something as a fact when it isn't. It is something stated in the lowest form of authority besides the video games. There are 5 levels of authority above it. The purpose of citing a source is for reference, not clarity. This is a misrepresentation. Here are a few examples throughout the wiki of this same style being used:
Instant Transmission 'Known Users' states a comment made by King Kai, which would change cannonocity, is clarified by the statement "this is only said in the anime."
Gogeta The page starts with "an anime only character"
Super Saiyan 2 'Usage and power' references the first use of SSJ2 as being in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, but being as this alters facts, they clarify with "this scene was shown in a filler flashback in the anime."
Great Ape 'Appearances - DBZ' states that the original SSJ is shown as a golden great ape. Again, to not mislead readers, the sentance begins: "In the anime only."
Degrelescence (talk) 04:09, April 25, 2013 (UTC)

That's a pretty silly response. I pointed out that 99% of the site works one way, and you pointed to a handful of examples in that other 1%. The truth is, both ways are correct, but being concise is better. The content is identical. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 01:45, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Obviously I could have grabbed more. None of those are related pages, they were just whatever came to mind. Can you show me an example of it ever being done the other way? Obviously there is a differance between citation and clarification. As stated citation is for reference, not clarification. Every page, period, lists the source of their information, within the article. Saying filler, for example, obviously says it is anime only. Nothing relies on citation. That's why your Manual of Style specifically states that it should be done that way. I feel like posting 10x examples from the real wikipedia but I am sure you would just discount those as well. My guess is that you know what's right and what should be done, but don't want to concede the point. So, fine. Do it incorrectly so you can say you didn't lose. I'll go back to real life, where professionals act professional. Degrelescence (talk) 02:05, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Obviously? It's not obvious at all, and you should not assume that others will read your thoughts. A plethora of examples is that nearly every character's height and weight in their infobox. Further, the point is that the Manual of Style is more important than what an editor happened to chose to do that day, and popular solutions aren't always the best. "Every page, period, lists the source of their information, within the article" - wrong, see my second sentence. "Real Wikipedia" has no influence on our policies here. We are unaffiliated and have different ownership. Wikipedia's lack of detailed DB info led to the creation of this site. I do know what's right and what should be done, which is adherence to the Manual of Style, a point which we both agree on. Why you are making this personal and attacking me, I do not know. That is called an ad hominem argument, attacking an individual when you do not believe you can get your way using facts. It has no place here, and frankly reflects a level of immaturity. As to being a professional, I am jealous indeed if you are being paid to edit. I personally volunteer my time, but to each his own. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 02:30, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

I don't assume anyone can read my thoughts, which is why I say things like "Here are a few examples." You know, to clarify that they are ... a few examples. I didn't say, here are all the pages I could find. I said, a few examples, but you like to pick and chose what you like from the facts and ignore the ones you don't like. You are definately right though that info boxes don't have complete sentances in them. lol Another professional reasonable response! As for real wiki, I list it not because it has ownership over you but because it is the current standard on appropriate reference within an article. But again, who cares about what's right? Or appropriate? You'd rather win. As for what's right, it is adherance to the Manual of Style, which you seem unwilling to do. Why I make it personal is because you made it personal. You refuse all logical and factual arguement for the 'nah ah!' response. It's silly and rediculous. You are a poor representation of your comunity and devalue the site as a whole. As for using facts, I have used facts the entire time, you haven't used any (I guess besides saying that an info box doesn't have sentences in it). As for professionalism:
"pro·fes·sion·al
prəˈfeSHənl
Adjective: Of, relating to, or connected with a profession.
Noun: A person engaged or qualified in a profession.
Synonyms:
adjective: vocational - occupational
noun: pro - practitioner - specialist"
Notice how payment and job are never stated (although vocational is a synonym, but so is specialist and practitioner). As an administrator, you are a representative of your site and should act like it, doesn't matter if you are paid or not. The facts are clearly one sided and if you had the slightest degree of professionalism this conversation would have been over a long time ago. Degrelescence (talk) 02:59, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for agreeing that the infoboxes exemplify a short form reference, which is prefectly acceptable. As for the rest of that, what are you even talking about? This discussion is to determine whether to use a long form or short form reference. Your profession is not editing on this wiki, the Manual of Style doesn't specify long vs. short form, Wikipedia is an external and unrelated site that happens to also use reference tags (which is the opposite of your opinion anyway...), and the personal attacks you have admitted to are against the rules. It has become clear do not care about the article quality or our mission, and would rather just insult others than consider the possibility of someone else having a good idea.

Let's try this again, and this time try to stay on topic. We both agree that the source should be stated. Long form and short form references give the same exact info. I believe short form is better because wikis attempt to provide maximum content in minimum space, and reference tags were created for this purpose. Why do think long form is better in this case. If you reply with personal attacks, your response will not be considered. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:06, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

All of that was related and on topic. If you want to ignore it, fine. Want to get back to the why, then, as stated, it is massively misleading. It simply states something from a manual as fact with a cited source. As a side note, it is also inaccurate. Back to what the Manual of Style does and does not say:
Manual of Style: Canonicity.
"[...] there are several sources of information that can be used. [...] If a less authoritative source includes information that was absent in more authoritative sources but that does not directly conflict with those sources, that source is used and a note should be made about the omission in the more authoritative sources [not a citation, a note]. The usable sources, in order of authoritativeness are as follows:
[...] 4.3. Authorized guides (discussion may be required to gauge relative importance)
[...] [With regard to the aforementioned filler episodes] If an article's subject is specific to a particular source, that source's information should take precedence (though conflicts and omissions from other sources should still be noted). For example, an article about an episode from the anime would describe the anime's account — even if it conflicted with the original manga's account — since anime episodes are specific to the anime series; any conflicts or omissions between the two sources would be discussed in side notes. [So we treat filler as filler. Stating it in the beginning is enough, it is clear throughout the article that it is anime only, yet they still want a 'side note']
It is written that way for a reason. That reason is that in-universe the manga is fact. Everything else is not. Anime is USUALLY accurate, movies and TV specials are usually not accurate, but sometimes are, authorized guides and statements are not accurate, just extra info when there is nothing else, and video games are never accurate at all. That's why there is a presidence. Posting one of the worst sources as fact is completely contrary to the entire intention of a refrence site. And citations don't clear that up at all. If I read through every page and had to click a little number on every sentence to figure out if it was believable or not it would be a very slow and unreliable process. Citations should be used, so that information can be verified but they are NOT a "short form" replacement of actual article content. Degrelescence (talk) 06:35, April 26, 2013 (UTC)
Nothing is said in the manga about the SSJ2 multiplyer. Everything comes from guide books, even the SSJ1 x50 multiplyer. So there is no reason word it is if it contradicted the manga. Source are added in citation form, we won't say "according to DBZ episode XX..." for every fact every two sentence. The reference format is made for this, for sources. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 06:42, April 26, 2013 (UTC)
That's the point. Nothing is said in the manga. People who spend an enormous amount of time on this wiki believe these guide books as fact. They are NOT fact. That's EXACTLY why the Manual of Style prohibits writing articles that way, to prevent this misconception. I didn't link the portion about contradicting the manga (which it also has), I linked the portion about unreliable sources providing information that isn't in the manga. This is a third party company GUESSING and you put it as fact. Again, citations are for reference (looking stuff up to verify sources) not to replace content. You should ABSOLUTELY list anything that isn't fact as not fact and where it comes from, in article, to prevent these misconceptions. And most of the detailed pages do list 'although not in the manga' or 'in the anime X says.' I went through a couple of examples of that earlier. Degrelescence (talk) 06:51, April 26, 2013 (UTC)

Personal attacks are not relevant, and they are against the rules. Your disregard for site policies shows a lack of interest in the quality of this site. Your definition of "fact" is arbitrary and heavily biased. Things that are not in the manga are not in the manga, but that's the whole extent of what it means. There is no reason to say that only the manga should be counted as "fact". You must edit here with a neutral point of view, setting aside preconceived notions about which media is "true" and which you do not approve of. We are the DB Wiki, we are not the DB Manga Wiki. Anything that is licensed and published is true unless it contradicts are more official source. Omission does not constitute contradiction. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 05:01, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Unless you bother to read your own Manual of Style. YOUR bias prevents you from even reading your own guidelines. Degrelescence (talk) 15:54, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

You have a bias against non-manga material and you didn't even deny it. That is a big problem that will prevent you from editing properly on this site. All wiki articles must be written without bias and with a neutral point of view, so try and rethink your notions with that in mind. Also, I wrote parts of the MoS, so your last comment was nonsense. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 17:08, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Alright, guys, I'll jump back into the discussion. This isn't a case where low-relevance material is used to provide additional info, this is a case where it directly contradicts manga info. Not to mention that the articles themselves contain quite a bit of contradictions due to the way you proceeded. Let me quote some of them, within only the Super Saiyan 2 article:

First you write "The Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as regular Super Saiyan, so the form multiplies the Saiyan's base power by 100x times its normal amount." - not only is it assuming that the multiplier remains 50x throughout the entire series, (which Toriyama himself impugned), but I digress - this is not the subject.

Problem is: afterwards you write "The power of the Super Saiyan 2 form skyrockets far beyond the power of the Super Saiyan, Ascended Super Saiyan, Ultra Super Saiyan, and even Full-Power Super Saiyan forms." Read that again. "Skyrockets FAR BEYOND yada yada". So what do we get? Don't you think 2x is a bit modest, considering that ASSj itself should already easily increase a Super Saiyan's power by that much? Unless you believe in "immense" powerups such as say, 1,3x for ASSj and 1,7x for USSj and Full Power - then indeed a 2x for SSj2 would be quite impressive.

But truth of the matter is, manga material demonstrates directly that there MUST be more space than just 2x between the First Stage Transformations (topped with FPSSJ) and SSj2. See, SSj2 Gohan was hugely stronger than Power Weighted FP Perfect Cell who was considerably stronger than Full Power Perfect Cell who was a lot stronger than FPSSj Gohan who was a bit stronger than powered up Perfect Cell who was about on par with FPSSj Goku who was stronger than USSj Trunks post 1st RoSaT who was considerably stronger but slower than Relaxed Perfect Cell who was a lot stronger than ASSj Vegeta post 1st RoSaT who was definitely stronger than SSj Vegeta post 1st RoSaT. 

See that? Do you REALLY think a 2x power difference would be enough for SSj2 Gohan to utterly devastate a Perfect Cell that has powered up at the very least twice from the state he fought Goku against, and then AGAIN increased his brute strength by bulking up? Not to mention that the wording of the article (with the 100x Base bit) makes it seem like ASSj and SSj2 either are no different OR that ASSJ increases the power by some funny multiplier such as 1,25x or something. Xfing (talk) 15:58, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

Intense emotion

"Once enough energy is acquired, the Saiyan must experience a powerful emotional upheaval, much like the Super Saiyan transformation, but to a greater extent. Because of the intense emotion required to initiate the transformation, any mastery of the Full-Power Super Saiyan state, and mental stability attained therein, is negated, and the naturally remorseless nature of the Saiyan race is magnified, requiring them to remaster the personality changes."

Is there any evidence to suggest that any of the above is mandatory for SSJ2 to warrant mentioning in the article? Only Gohan (who is infamous for his rages) has exhibited such characteristics, in stark contrast to Goku, Vegeta, and (if you want to include him) Gotenks. —This unsigned comment was made by Marikina (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

There are two sources cited at the end of the paragraph. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 21:18, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

The two sources seem to refer more to the 2x multiplier for the form rather than the part about the intense emotion. —This unsigned comment was made by Marikina (talkcontribs) Please sign your posts with ~~~~ next time!

Please sign your posts. "Seem to" makes me think you didn't check the sources, and are just going by placement of the citations. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 18:26, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, how do I sign my posts? I did check the "Super Exciting Gude" source, which did refer more to the 2x multiplier. I haven't been able to fin anything so far on the Daizenshuu one, but the Battle Power Guide connotation implies it's probably more of the same.

Four tildes, instructions are at the top of every talk page, including this one. In terms of Gohan, yes he was angry, but it specifically took Cell antagonizing him to make him get angry and transform. It hardly seems like a coincidence. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 08:28, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Dragon Ball GT

Vegeta used Super Saiyan 2 several times in GT didn't he. After all GT Vegeta has the form in Heroes.Neffyarious (talk) 13:24, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files mentions he doesn't use it. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 15:20, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
Possibly. It's hard to know because they don't add the sparks. And his hair doesn't change at all going from normal -> Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2. Goku's hair changes when he goes SS2, he goes briefly SS2 while fighting Rilldo. Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 19:08, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
But the usage of SS forms is only in GT Perfect File number 1 right? And that only goes up to the end of the Baby Saga. So Vegeta could have used SS2 in the Super 17 and Shadow Dragon sagas.Neffyarious (talk) 08:43, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
There is no source for a SS2 usage in GT. GT Vegeta has the form in Heroes, but he could already use the form in Z and the game features several what-if forms, so it proves nothing. ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 08:47, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
SS2 Vegeta GT
During the final part of the battle against Omega Shenron in GT, Vegeta is a Super Saiyan, but then powers up and lightning appears around him. Isn't that Super Saiyan 2?Neffyarious (talk) 13:25, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Several characters power up with lightnings, including Vegito in the manga. Yet, they're just Super Saiyans, or even just in base form (Nappa). ShulabyninjaJeangabinTalkContribDaburawrh 16:20, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Yep, that's Super Saiyan 2. I mean, he's fighting a super dragon who is stronger than a Super Saiyan 4, why wouldn't he use his strongest transformation? Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 17:31, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
Dragon Ball GT 1 29 The Fall Of The Saiyans 43680

SS Gohan

Gohan SSJ2 1

SS2 Gohan

Also, Gohan seems to be SS2 while fighting Super 17, as he gains the hair lock, which is not present in his regular SS in GT.--Neffyarious (talk) 16:28, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

GT Perfect Files say that SS2 not used upon GT at all, but its clearly mistake, lightning demonstrated several times on characters who have SS2 transf, and hair change dozens of times. Even in battle Goku and Mega Rildo Goku clearly powered up to SS2 to tank one of his attacks (hair change, but lightning not appear)Date450190486 17:47, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Of course, the fight with S17 seems to be the only time Gohan goes SS2, and the fight with Omega seems to be the only time Vegeta goes SS2.--Neffyarious (talk) 14:34, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

  • Vegeta actually briefly uses the form against S17 as well, when he is about to try and fight him again just before Goku arrives, he goes SS (accompanied by the transformation sound effect) and then his aura increases massivley (accompanied by another transformation sound effect) indicating he went SS2.Neffyarious (talk) 18:23, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Goku is not Super Saiyan 2 while battle with Super Bu (Gotenks + Piccolo + Gohan absorbed)

When Vegeta returned to Earth from Other World (with the help of Fortuneteller Baba), he and Goku fought Super Buu in their Super Saiyan 2 forms. However, due to the massive power he achieved from absorbing Gotenks, Piccolo, and Gohan, Super Buu's strength easily outclassed Goku and Vegeta, reverting them back to their normal states. It was not until Goku finally convinced Vegeta for both of them to wear the Potara earrings so they could fuse into Vegito, giving them enough strength to easily dominate Super Buu.

I watched the episode 268 now, and the hair of Goku are those of the SSJ1
Vlcsnap-2014-07-19-09h34m36s248

Goku and Vegeta SSJ in episode 268 (Goku hair aren't SSJ2)

. Vegeta instead in some sequences have the electrical discharges in the aura
Vlcsnap-2014-07-19-09h36m56s158

Vegeta SSJ or SSJ2 in episde 268

(but I honestly believe it's a random thing). However this scene is added by animators of Dragon Ball Z, so it can safely be an oversight. Sorry if my english is suck, but i'm italian :P--HypnoDisk (talk) 07:45, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Why are there removed references to Grade 3 in the article?

I got the impression that the article was once again modified so that the references to SSj2 being stronger than SSjG3 were removed. The editors seem to be going for the erroneous portrayal of SSj2 and SSjG3 as equivalent to each other, only with SSj2 having the speed and SSjG3 not having it.

SSj2 is still far superior in power to Grade 3 as well. Grade 3 is just an extension of the regular Super Saiyan form, which is mastered with Full-Power Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan 2 is another level, beyond both Grade 3 and FP. My personal feelings on the subject may not be stated facts though, so in order to fall back on something indisputable, I'll give you a power chain:

Super Perfect Cell ~ SSj2 Gohan > Perfect Cell (Power Weighted) > Perfect Cell (full power) > FPSSj Gohan (full power) >/~ Perfect Cell (powered up) > FPSSj Goku (max power) > SSj Vegeta/Trunks (post 2nd RoSaT, possibly FP) ~ Cell Jr. > FPSSj Goku (50% power demonstration) > SSjG3 Trunks > Perfect Cell (heavily suppressed) > SSjG2 Vegeta/Trunks > Semi-Perfect Cell (max power) > Semi-Perfect Cell

(if necessary, I can give a detailed explanation behind every link of the chain)

Therefore, equating Grade 3 to SSj2 works on the wrong assumption that Cell's power was the same all the time, which is forgetting one of the most basic principles of the Dragonball manga - before transformations became a thing as well as after they did - there was still the ability to raise your ki. And Cell did this - his self that he was referring to when he told Trunks he was much stronger than him wasn't the same self that fought Goku at the Cell Games, much less the same self that got effortlessly pwned by SSj2 Gohan.

SSj2 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Grade 3, period. Xfing (talk) 00:50, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

We are aware of that. What's your point? Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 00:52, March 4, 2015 (UTC)

D00d

Why don't you leave SSJ2 Goku image in there?

It clutters the page, there are enough pics in there. Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 20:51, March 30, 2015 (UTC)


Okay. Whenever I make an edit and you undo, note the reason in the summary box next time. Bargeta (talk) 20:54, March 30, 2015 (UTC)

haha good remembering. It's because you're new here. Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 21:17, March 30, 2015 (UTC)

SSJ and SSJ2

Is there any difference between SSJ and SSJ2 other than immense power boost? Or maybe i havent done enough research

SSJ2 has more rigid hair, only one lock of hair falling and the occasional electric spark Yakon RenderSandubadearPui Pui Render 23:05, April 22, 2015 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku card for Dragon Ball Heroes

Apparently, there is more than 1 Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku card

Screen Shot 2015-10-30 at 7.39.51

The second Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku card

Screen Shot 2015-10-30 at 7.40.08

The first Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku card

At your right there are two Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku. If you play Dragon Ball Heroes, you should know that these two Goku will start off as Super Saiyan 2 then at the 3rd round, they will either transform Super Saiyan 3 or Super Siayan 4. So techically there are more than 2 Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku cards Bardock ssj2 (talk) 23:43, October 29, 2015 (UTC)

Only the bottom card image is shown to be Super Saiyan 2 GT Goku, the top one is of Super Saiyan 3 (Note the lack of eyebrows) — TonyBest100 (talk) 12:18, October 30, 2015 (UTC)

Super Saiyan 3 Third Grade Trunks

Shouldn't the new form have it's own page?(AcastaGneiss (talk) 08:26, August 9, 2016 (UTC))

It's not even a new form, this needs to be taken off, Future Trunks is not a Third Grade SSJ2, he may have buffed up, but he still transformed down from SSJ2 to an advanced level of SSJ. SSJ2 has lightning sparks and if this was SSJ2 Buffed the sparks would still be there, when Trunks down sized when Vegeta came at him, he was regular Super Saiyan. TheCreepy904 (talk) 13:20, August 9, 2016 (UTC)
it needs to be re-added, just because it didn't have lighting doesn't prove anything. Nikon23 02:30, August 18, 2016 (UTC)
Now, I know this is probably the single most mismanaged wikia on the internet and is internationally known to be regularly speculative, and often just straight wrong, but surely you know what wikias are supposed to be, right? In their mission statement it says you are never supposed to post anything speculative unless that is clearly stated. You don't post something on an assumption waiting for someone to prove you wrong, you post something when you have fact, and not until. But this wikia will do whatever it wants, so go be ignorant. Degrelescence (talk) 04:08, August 18, 2016 (UTC)
We really do not know whether Trunks was a Third Grade Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2, he could be either. We need to add it back, but have the section note it is ambiguous as to what exactly the form is.--Neffyarious (talk) 04:36, August 18, 2016 (UTC)
Okay, but why would that be on the SSJ2 page? As opposed to Super Saiyan Third Grade? Degrelescence (talk) 05:36, August 18, 2016 (UTC)
It'd be mentioned on both.--Neffyarious (talk) 07:20, August 18, 2016 (UTC)
That makes no sense. It has nothing to do with this page. Degrelescence (talk) 07:22, August 18, 2016 (UTC)

Deg is completely wrong about the wiki and cited no evidence for his negative claims, but I agree with the small part of his input that was actually relevant to this article. We saw Trunks use SS Grade 3. He used SS2 during the same fight but the forms are not the one in he same. The episode showed Trunks using deceptive tactics including switching to an inferior form to make Vegeta underestimate him. To avoid edit warring, the info should be left out until a consensus is reached. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 04:50, August 19, 2016 (UTC)

Personally, I think that Trunks was just in SS Grade 3. However he powered up from SS2 into the Grade 3 form and Vegeta implied that it was stronger than SS2, that's why it could possibly be a Third Grade for Super Saiyan 2, we honestly will not know until some kind of guidebook is released. That's why I believe that it should still be mentioned on the pages, but left ambiguous as to whether it was 3GSS or 3GSS2. Perhaps under a section titled "Third Grade application" detailing how it was used alongside SS2.--Neffyarious (talk) 04:56, August 19, 2016 (UTC)


"Vegeta implied that it was stronger than SS2". What!? Where did he imply that!? Trunks just transformed from Super Saiyan 2 to Third Grade, that's no big deal, much less a new transformation, which isn't. We should create a section if guidebook says it is a new form, if video-games give it a proper name to what happened, but until there, he just went from a level to another just like going Super Saiyan to any other level and shouldn't be created a section. Bargeta (talk) 10:25, August 19, 2016 (UTC)

and you know this how? seems like you are making assumption just like the rest of us. Nikon23 10:27, August 19, 2016 (UTC)

I don't remember Vegeta saying Trunks became stronger when he switched forms, but it's possible to power up as Grade 3 and to hide your full power as SS2. This speaks to Trunks' cleverness in battle, but like those above have stated I don't see evidence of a new form. -- SSJ4 Goku(2) 10X.Ka.me.ha.me.ha.....talk.....contrib. 17:46, August 21, 2016 (UTC)