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  • What if Goku had decided to let Raditz live due to him being his brother and, after the fight, let him have a Senzu Bean to heal him? Would he have been inclined to change, surprised by his brother's act of mercy despite what he had done? And if so, how would things have changed in DBZ?

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    • I think so and im guessing that Raditz would have been an intrical member of the Z fighters ( or sacrafice himself to save Goku or Gohan from Vegeta)

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    • Guys, stop cheapening Goku's uniqueness and Vegeta's one and a half decade (in universe) of character development by making other Saiyans seem like they were a step away from turning good. They weren't.


      If Goku let Raditz have a Senzu Bean 'after the fight', the Raditz would get a boost to his powerlevel and rip Goku's heart out ASAP, or leave the planet and get backup from Nappa and Vegeta.


      Even assuming Raditz would become a Z-fighter, there's absolutely no telling what kind of powerlevel he could or couldn't get. Remember, people in Freeza's era couldn't even imagine Saiyans were able to surpass 60 000 battle power. By the end of DBZ, Raditz could be a Piccolo-level fighter, almost as strong as Goku or Vegeta, or he could never attain SSJ form and be equalish to the earthlings.

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    • How is this cheapening Goku's uniqueness and Vegeta's character development? No one even said anything about him being as strong as Goku just that he could have been an integral member of the group or that he could have done something important. I agree however that if Goku had spared him again that he would have still been evil and than everyone would be dead.

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    • And how is another Saiyan's strength related to Vegeta's character development or uniqueness?

      I meant purely the 'going good' part.

      Universe 7 Saiyans vary from savage to militaristic. They vary from being very much evil to being fairly merciless and strict soldiers. A whole population of Saiyans struggled up to put 6 good-hearted ones, and that might've been even before Freeza's organization took them over. When 4 (8 if you count movie characters) Saiyans are what's left alive, the fact that one of them is good and one managed to turn good-ish is already a statistical impossibility. 


      Raditz would not turn good. He wanted to kill a child, kidnapped his own nephew to force his own brother to conform or lose his child (and then, likely, die), he cheated his sibling once, and only had any interest in getting along with Kakarotto if the latter *joined him*. This is the kind of guy who thanks you after you give him a senzu bean, then blasts a hole in your skull, or brings up that guy who's 10 times stronger than him, not 'gets  surprised by his brother's act of mercy despite what he had done'.

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    • It should be pretty obvious that when I was talking about no one saying anything about Raditz's potential strength I was replying to the last part of your first message. Meh, one more pure-blood Saiyan being is not going to be cheapening Goku's uniqueness or Vegeta's character development I mean come on while the Saiyans' savagery is quite well known it was never really that important to the story.

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    • Anyone remember that what-if story for raditz in tenkaichi 2? that's the closest we have to finding out what raditz would have been like if he were good.

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    • Would Super Saiyan Raditz even look like? And 2 and 3 for that matter?

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      And 2 and 3 for that matter?

      Cousin Itt from the Addams Family.

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    • Raditz would eventually gave up his life for his younger brother when fighting Freeza, which makes Goku pissed at Freeza

      The End

      "Guys, stop cheapening Goku's uniqueness and Vegeta's one and a half decade (in universe) of character development by making other Saiyans seem like they were a step away from turning good. They weren't." - Si, but Raditz and Nappa were gentle lambs compared to Vegeta, who was Toriyama's version of hitler

      But yeah mrs. Gine and mr. Bardock may be good parents and they would join their son but they're still bad to the bone

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    • Venithil wrote:

      Guys, stop cheapening Goku's uniqueness and Vegeta's one and a half decade (in universe) of character development by making other Saiyans seem like they were a step away from turning good. They weren't.


      If Goku let Raditz have a Senzu Bean 'after the fight', the Raditz would get a boost to his powerlevel and rip Goku's heart out ASAP, or leave the planet and get backup from Nappa and Vegeta.


      Even assuming Raditz would become a Z-fighter, there's absolutely no telling what kind of powerlevel he could or couldn't get. Remember, people in Freeza's era couldn't even imagine Saiyans were able to surpass 60 000 battle power. By the end of DBZ, Raditz could be a Piccolo-level fighter, almost as strong as Goku or Vegeta, or he could never attain SSJ form and be equalish to the earthlings.

      Venithil, first just let me say, I really respect you man. You're explanations and thoughts are among the best and most concise. But in regards to this reply there are some aspects I don't quite agree on.

      You are absolutely correct in saying Vegeta's development and complexity outmatch Raditz by over 9000 (see what I did there?) However, I think this is largely attributed to Vegeta being one of the few lucky villains to be given this chance to begin with.

      Out of all of Goku's rivals, that he fought and befriended. (Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta) Vegeta was the absolute worst in terms of morality. Everyone else on that list at least had some redeeming quality, whereas Vegeta was a mass murderer, whose inflated ego made him look down upon everything. The only reason Vegeta was allowed to live so long (in-universe), was because he was always the lesser-of-two evils that the Z-fighters needed help from the fight the "real" villain. (Out-universe, it was because fans loved Vegeta and didn't want him to get killed off, so Toriyama-san kept him around).

      When comparing Raditz to Vegeta, Raditz was nowhere near as bad. Raditz did not immediately spite Goku despite being significantly weaker, gave him several chances to join, and ultimately wished not to kill Goku. If Vegeta of all people (the guy who kills his own comrades because they're too weak, and has one of the highest bodycounts in Dragon Ball history), than it's really not that far-fetched to see Raditz turn over a new leaf.

      Now all I'm saying is Raditz could have filled Vegeta's role, if that was the decision Toriyama-san made. Whether he should have is a whole different issue. Looking at his character as a whole, he does seem more flat and generic than Vegeta's complexity. But in his defense that could be attributed to Raditz never getting any chance to show any depth, because he was killed off and forgotten too quickly.

      Personally, while I wouldn't mind Raditz surviving the first Saga. I don't think he should become a Z-fighter or a major character. He could have fled after the battle with Piccolo and Goku, and become a reoccurring character that might occasionally show up to distract the main villain.

      As for power level. While Raditz probably wouldn't have reached the messiahic levels that Goku and Vegeta achieved, he still could have been pretty damned strong. All Saiyans, grow stronger from battle. Raditz is not exempt from that rule. In fact based on hereditary potential, it's miraculous that Goku managed to get that strong. The only reason he became so powerful (other than protagonist-itis), was because he kept on being given the chances to receive training from all of the top mentors. Not only teaching him new techniques and honing his stats, but giving him the knowledge on how to improve on his own. If Goku remained as Kakarot who never hit his head, seriously doubt he would have unlocked Super Saiyan, because he would be too busy killing rather than training. Goku and Vegeta kept getting so powerful because of their obsession with rigorous undeterred training.

      So in conclusion: Could Raditz have become better and stronger? Yes. Would it be a good idea for him to? Depends on personal opinion, but ultimately the fanbase agrees that Vegeta is the better choice. That is all.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      And 2 and 3 for that matter?

      Cousin Itt from the Addams Family.

      No, that would be baby Raditz

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      1) However, I think this is largely attributed to Vegeta being one of the few lucky villains to be given this chance to begin with.

      2) Out of all of Goku's rivals, that he fought and befriended. (Yamcha, Krillin, Tien, Piccolo, Vegeta) Vegeta was the absolute worst in terms of morality. Everyone else on that list at least had some redeeming quality, whereas Vegeta was a mass murderer, whose inflated ego made him look down upon everything. The only reason Vegeta was allowed to live so long (in-universe), was because he was always the lesser-of-two evils that the Z-fighters needed help from the fight the "real" villain. (Out-universe, it was because fans loved Vegeta and didn't want him to get killed off, so Toriyama-san kept him around).

      3) When comparing Raditz to Vegeta, Raditz was nowhere near as bad. Raditz did not immediately spite Goku despite being significantly weaker, gave him several chances to join, and ultimately wished not to kill Goku. If Vegeta of all people (the guy who kills his own comrades because they're too weak, and has one of the highest bodycounts in Dragon Ball history), than it's really not that far-fetched to see Raditz turn over a new leaf.

      4) Now all I'm saying is Raditz could have filled Vegeta's role, if that was the decision Toriyama-san made. Whether he should have is a whole different issue. Looking at his character as a whole, he does seem more flat and generic than Vegeta's complexity. But in his defense that could be attributed to Raditz never getting any chance to show any depth, because he was killed off and forgotten too quickly.

      5) Personally, while I wouldn't mind Raditz surviving the first Saga. I don't think he should become a Z-fighter or a major character. He could have fled after the battle with Piccolo and Goku, and become a reoccurring character that might occasionally show up to distract the main villain.

      6) As for power level. While Raditz probably wouldn't have reached the messiahic levels that Goku and Vegeta achieved, he still could have been pretty damned strong. All Saiyans, grow stronger from battle. Raditz is not exempt from that rule. In fact based on hereditary potential, it's miraculous that Goku managed to get that strong. The only reason he became so powerful (other than protagonist-itis), was because he kept on being given the chances to receive training from all of the top mentors. Not only teaching him new techniques and honing his stats, but giving him the knowledge on how to improve on his own. If Goku remained as Kakarot who never hit his head, seriously doubt he would have unlocked Super Saiyan, because he would be too busy killing rather than training. Goku and Vegeta kept getting so powerful because of their obsession with rigorous undeterred training.

      So in conclusion: Could Raditz have become better and stronger? Yes. Would it be a good idea for him to? Depends on personal opinion, but ultimately the fanbase agrees that Vegeta is the better choice. That is all.

      1) It can actually also be attributed to Vegeta's 'core' changing between Freeza / Cell saga and Majin Buu saga. In Saiyan and Freeza Saga, Vegeta's attitude is pretty much 'every man for himself' and 'by any means neccessary, at all costs'. He's absolutely ruthless and with little honor. He doesn't care much about his race until his dying moments at the hands of Freeza (heck, he doesn't originally seem fazed by Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta). It's actually losing on Earth and then dying to Freeza only to be given a second chance that makes him realize he *has* any pride, arguably, and that's his character shtick from then on. He develops beautifully through Android and Cell Saga, where his pride keeps getting trampled again and again with the occasional tickle until he realizes he is not the center of the universe, gets furious at Trunks' death, and apologizes to Gohan.


      In Majin Buu saga while Vegeta's development is fun, Toriyama basically rewrote his origins and basics. He's proud to be a Saiyan, he seems to have cared about his race, and for the first time he really cares about the 'Prince' thing. Nevertheless my point still stands : Vegeta took over a decade in universe time to become a decent person. This is not the luxury many have, no. 


      2) Arguably King Piccolo is just as bad (only not as ridiculously powerful), but because of Piccolo Jr's wacky status as something between a brainwashed child and a half-reincarnation it's hard to put all the blame on him when he's a third of Goku's age. Hell, Piccolo Daimao's arguable redeeming quality ("I want to be back to my prime" instead of "I want to be immortal"; a dose of honor, maybe) became Vegeta's chief quality in Cell and Buu Sagas. 


      3) I guess this is differing character interpretation we'll have to disagree on. Maybe it's because I have a sibling I get along with that I find Raditz' treatment of Gohan and Goku inexcusable. I'd argue that Raditz didn't want to kill Goku if Goku could be recruited, but he was ready to kidnap and potentially kill Gohan, as well as kill Goku, if Goku wouldn't come over to his side or stood in his way. Even when Goku actually showed him mercy and trust he just abused it (remember Goku grabbed Raditz' tail). Vegeta had several opportunities to kill Gohan and Kuririn on Namek, but didn't (they were useful and he did seem to feel only mildly indebted), only becoming ready to do so after saving their lives and when he was supposed to get his wish. The way I saw Raditz character in Saiyan Saga, he would've destroyed Gohan the moment they met on Namek. 

      I guess it's just how I am with my personal morality. There are two crimes which I see as higher than your run-off-the-mill murder (which is easy to perform en masse when you have the ability to blow up cities / planets), and unjustified kinslaying is one of them.


      4) Regrettably Raditz was more of a device for Goku's development than a character. Him turning a new leaf might make sense if he survived being on Earth, went to get Vegeta and Nappa and attacked with them, got killed anyway in the Saiyan Saga finale (by Nappa or Vegeta as punishment for 'weakness'), and then got wished back on a technicality ('Revive everyone who died in the battle against the Saiyans', 'Revive everyone killed by Freeza's men', etc.). Being backstabbed by his own after being allowed to flee Earth is really the only way I could see Raditz develop the kick to go on a 5-10-15 years journey to becoming a good person. Just being shown mercy? He'd consider that stupidity. 


      5) It would be fun seeing a Super Saiyan villain that wasn't Vegeta or Broly get defeated by someone who wasn't Goku, though. Or to see a Saiyan ally that isn't outmatching every Non-Saiyan, just to lower their hype somewhat.


      6) You see, the issue I always have with Saiyans is that people keep judging them by Goku's and Vegeta's standards. Goku 'suffers' from Protagonist Powerup Case, was trained by great martial artists, drunk weird poisoned sacred water thing, trained in other dimensions including afterlife, and never really had to grab a motivation to get better. Vegeta is pretty much the best his race has to offer short of Broly [Only considering the physical and genetic potential, I mean], and trained his freaking heart out like you mentioned (Goku after the above is obviously better). But everyone else? Warrior race or not, Freeza's soldiers who were around for decades couldn't believe a Saiyan can hit Ginyu Force level. The thing that was worrisome about Saiyans was not their strength, but the Oozaru transformation. Bardock, who constantly got beat up and recovered, couldn't defeat Dodoria two decades before Vegeta did. Too many people judge Saiyan potential on the most amazing specimen of their race, and forget the run off the mill guys couldn't match up to Zarbon.


      True, training would improve them drastically when compared to what they were doing, but arguably that stands for almost everyone else, too - the Ginyu Force, Freeza, and so on. Goku's haxxor potential and Vegeta's super mega ultra final elite bloodline combined with ridiculous determination and training regimes are not a measuring stick for Saiyan potential they're the cream of the crop.  I just don't see Raditz growing stronger than double-fused Piccolo no matter how much he trained even if they had similar amount of 'lifetime'. 

      BH Ouji wrote:
      Raditz would eventually gave up his life for his younger brother when fighting Freeza, which makes Goku pissed at Freeza

      The End

      "Guys, stop cheapening Goku's uniqueness and Vegeta's one and a half decade (in universe) of character development by making other Saiyans seem like they were a step away from turning good. They weren't." - Si, but Raditz and Nappa were gentle lambs compared to Vegeta, who was Toriyama's version of hitler

      But yeah mrs. Gine and mr. Bardock may be good parents and they would join their son but they're still bad to the bone

      Gine's actually supposedly a good person, or, well, at least a she's not good with murder, planetary conquering, and blowing stuff up. Might be part of the reason Goku could turn out the way he did.

      Bardock's character is full of retcons, resets, noncanon moments, and a ton of other stuff. It's a swamp I don't want to get into but he's the reason I said Saiyans could be 'merciless soldiers'. This is basically the sort of guy who worked under Hitler or was an officer under Stalin. Oh, I have friends, I have family, I actually give a damn about them, but everyone else? Yeah. Sorry I commit genocide on your race, just orders. Well, not sorry, I actually enjoy it if you put up a fight. 

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    • Let's be honest now Ventihil Vegeta's genetics was definitely one of the best the saiyan race had to offer but it was not at all because of them that he became so strong. Just look at the fact that even the best of them was not considered anything special by Frieza's army's standards. He just 'suffers' from something similar to Goku, but unlike Goku he doesn't have any special masters that we can attribute some of his success to. I agree that something should be done to lower some of the saiyan's hype but rather than having a 'weak' saiyan I think some of the non-saiyan races should have some special powers, you know something unique to their race or a technique that would be incompatible with the saiyan race, that rivals that of the many Super Saiyan transformations.

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    • 1) It can actually also be attributed to Vegeta's 'core' changing between Freeza / Cell saga and Majin Buu saga. In Saiyan and Freeza Saga, Vegeta's attitude is pretty much 'every man for himself' and 'by any means neccessary, at all costs'. He's absolutely ruthless and with little honor. He doesn't care much about his race until his dying moments at the hands of Freeza (heck, he doesn't originally seem fazed by Freeza destroying Planet Vegeta). It's actually losing on Earth and then dying to Freeza only to be given a second chance that makes him realize he *has* any pride, arguably, and that's his character shtick from then on. He develops beautifully through Android and Cell Saga, where his pride keeps getting trampled again and again with the occasional tickle until he realizes he is not the center of the universe, gets furious at Trunks' death, and apologizes to Gohan.

      In Majin Buu saga while Vegeta's development is fun, Toriyama basically rewrote his origins and basics. He's proud to be a Saiyan, he seems to have cared about his race, and for the first time he really cares about the 'Prince' thing. Nevertheless my point still stands : Vegeta took over a decade in universe time to become a decent person. This is not the luxury many have, no.

      I was never in disagreement about that, Vegeta did develop a lot. It's just anyone who's kept around Goku long enough, is bound to have some of his influence brush off. There's a reason why Goku's makes friends by befriending his enemies. Also in Vegeta's case he's fueled by the extremely strong motivation of being better than Goku, largely due to his pride being in play. That in turn led him to the conclusion that to be better than Goku he had to be more like Goku, hence he was open to having his own family and loved ones to protect.

      2) Arguably King Piccolo is just as bad (only not as ridiculously powerful), but because of Piccolo Jr's wacky status as something between a brainwashed child and a half-reincarnation it's hard to put all the blame on him when he's a third of Goku's age. Hell, Piccolo Daimao's arguable redeeming quality ("I want to be back to my prime" instead of "I want to be immortal"; a dose of honor, maybe) became Vegeta's chief quality in Cell and Buu Sagas.

      I'm not sure King Piccolo counts. He never redeemed himself, unlike his offspring. Also, he was a lot more evil than Piccolo Jr. was to begin with. Although, the one aspect that made King Piccolo less evil was he wanted to rule the planet rather than wipe it out. Which is why Piccolo Jr. was able to team up with Goku to begin with, he was the lesser of two evils.

      3) I guess this is differing character interpretation we'll have to disagree on. Maybe it's because I have a sibling I get along with that I find Raditz' treatment of Gohan and Goku inexcusable. I'd argue that Raditz didn't want to kill Goku if Goku could be recruited, but he was ready to kidnap and potentially kill Gohan, as well as kill Goku, if Goku wouldn't come over to his side or stood in his way. Even when Goku actually showed him mercy and trust he just abused it (remember Goku grabbed Raditz' tail). Vegeta had several opportunities to kill Gohan and Kuririn on Namek, but didn't (they were useful and he did seem to feel only mildly indebted), only becoming ready to do so after saving their lives and when he was supposed to get his wish. The way I saw Raditz character in Saiyan Saga, he would've destroyed Gohan the moment they met on Namek.

      I guess it's just how I am with my personal morality. There are two crimes which I see as higher than your run-off-the-mill murder (which is easy to perform en masse when you have the ability to blow up cities / planets), and unjustified kinslaying is one of them.

      In that aspect Vegeta was no better than Raditz. He didn't give a crap when Bulma and baby Trunks were going to get killed, with them meaning nothing to him. And when he was a kid he showed no sadness when his father and the rest of his race was killed. I'm just comparing them before Vegeta's development, I know afterwards he had changed.

      4) Regrettably Raditz was more of a device for Goku's development than a character. Him turning a new leaf might make sense if he survived being on Earth, went to get Vegeta and Nappa and attacked with them, got killed anyway in the Saiyan Saga finale (by Nappa or Vegeta as punishment for 'weakness'), and then got wished back on a technicality ('Revive everyone who died in the battle against the Saiyans', 'Revive everyone killed by Freeza's men', etc.). Being backstabbed by his own after being allowed to flee Earth is really the only way I could see Raditz develop the kick to go on a 5-10-15 years journey to becoming a good person. Just being shown mercy? He'd consider that stupidity.

      No argument there. Toriyama-san thought it'd be a good idea to make Goku's brother a plot device, to introduce the concept of Saiyans, and to allow Piccolo to get redeemed. I can definitely see Raditz pulling a turn if he was rejected by the Saiyan elites, thereby giving him a common enemy with the heroes. Although it would be stale for him to be a Z-fighter imo. He would be better as a Yajirobe type character, who sometimes shows up.

      5) It would be fun seeing a Super Saiyan villain that wasn't Vegeta or Broly get defeated by someone who wasn't Goku, though. Or to see a Saiyan ally that isn't outmatching every Non-Saiyan, just to lower their hype somewhat.

      Meh. Don't think we need any more Saiyan villains. If Raditz did come back, Goku would probably try and turn him, considering how Vegeta had changed. Even seeing the Saiyan prince having a new start might have some influence on Raditz as well.

      6) You see, the issue I always have with Saiyans is that people keep judging them by Goku's and Vegeta's standards. Goku 'suffers' from Protagonist Powerup Case, was trained by great martial artists, drunk weird poisoned sacred water thing, trained in other dimensions including afterlife, and never really had to grab a motivation to get better. Vegeta is pretty much the best his race has to offer short of Broly [Only considering the physical and genetic potential, I mean], and trained his freaking heart out like you mentioned (Goku after the above is obviously better). But everyone else? Warrior race or not, Freeza's soldiers who were around for decades couldn't believe a Saiyan can hit Ginyu Force level. The thing that was worrisome about Saiyans was not their strength, but the Oozaru transformation. Bardock, who constantly got beat up and recovered, couldn't defeat Dodoria two decades before Vegeta did. Too many people judge Saiyan potential on the most amazing specimen of their race, and forget the run off the mill guys couldn't match up to Zarbon.

      True, training would improve them drastically when compared to what they were doing, but arguably that stands for almost everyone else, too - the Ginyu Force, Freeza, and so on. Goku's haxxor potential and Vegeta's super mega ultra final elite bloodline combined with ridiculous determination and training regimes are not a measuring stick for Saiyan potential they're the cream of the crop. I just don't see Raditz growing stronger than double-fused Piccolo no matter how much he trained even if they had similar amount of 'lifetime'.

      I concede that Goku and Vegeta are exceptional by Saiyan standards, especially Vegeta who was of elite class. But that is not to say Raditz could not improve phenomenally from his powerlevel in the Saiyan Saga. Zenkai isn't discriminatory, and can bolster any Saiyan. Even when Goku was first the strongest on Earth with training from 2 mentors, Raditz was already more powerful with no training whatsoever. Had Raditz trained, he would easily have overtaken the Humans and a fair share of Frieza's men.

      That's the thing. Goku and Vegeta were allowed to reach such heights, because they survived for so long and were allowed to keep getting stronger. What Frieza noticed and feared was the Saiyans kept getting stronger as a whole, and if left unchecked, there was the chance that one day a Super Saiyan would emerge that could bring him down. Vegeta couldn't take down Dodoria and Zarbon until several Zenkais after his battle on Earth.

      Well now that you mention that, I'm not sure Raditz could reach Piccolo levels either (unless he attained a massive powerup along the way). Because much like Goku and Vegeta are the pinnacle for Saiyan standards, Piccolo is an exceptional Namekian and the most powerful one to ever exist. It would be tough to reach his status after two assimilations.

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    • Reach Piccolo's level? I was thinking more of managing to get up to SSJ2, like Vegeta. I mean, he's a Saiyan! He'll get stronger along the way.

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    • Well Piccolo's a Super Namek. He's stronger than an untrained Super Saiyan.

      Gohan, the first to reach SSJ2 was a prodigy when it came power. Having a hidden power that made him stronger than Raditz when he was 4.

      If Raditz was to ever reach Super Saiyan 2 level by zenkais alone, it's going to be a helluva long time.

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    • Just being a SSJ2 doesn't mean he's surpassed Piccolo. I mean, by his fight with Frost I am fairly certain Piccolo could beat the oldschool regular Perfect Cell by now, and probably more. Whereas Adult SSJ2 Gohan, not neccessarily so.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      If Raditz was to ever reach Super Saiyan 2 level by zenkais alone, it's going to be a helluva long time.

      Really...

      Goku: So, brother. Now we're gonna make you strong. 

      Raditz: Okay... What do you actually mean?

      Goku: You'll see. Piccolo?

      Piccolo: Makankosappo!

      Krillin: Senzu Bean!

      Vegeta: Big Bang Attack!

      Krillin: Senzu Bean!

      Gohan: Masenko!

      Krillin: Senzu Bean! 

      (repeat until the day ends)

      Goku: So brother, with this many zenkais maybe tomorrow you'll reach Super Saiyan. In too weeks maybe you'll be SS2, who knows? (laughs innocently at his terrified brother)

      Raditz: You mean we're gonna do this again? (passes out)

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    • HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAA!!! Good one!

      But seriously...

      Super Saiyan 2 Raditz

      Raditz as a Super Saiyan 2 (hypothetical)


      If Raditz became a Super Saiyan 2 as a good guy, during the 

      Majin Arc, he could fight on par with Dabura. At his full potential at SSJ2, he would be as strong as SSJ2 Adolescent Gohan after seven years of no training. Not the best, but still very strong.

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:
      If Raditz was to ever reach Super Saiyan 2 level by zenkais alone, it's going to be a helluva long time.
      Really...

      Goku: So, brother. Now we're gonna make you strong. 

      Raditz: Okay... What do you actually mean?

      Goku: You'll see. Piccolo?

      Piccolo: Makankosappo!

      Krillin: Senzu Bean!

      Vegeta: Big Bang Attack!

      Krillin: Senzu Bean!

      Gohan: Masenko!

      Krillin: Senzu Bean! 

      (repeat until the day ends)

      Goku: So brother, with this many zenkais maybe tomorrow you'll reach Super Saiyan. In too weeks maybe you'll be SS2, who knows? (laughs innocently at his terrified brother)

      Raditz: You mean we're gonna do this again? (passes out)

      As funny as this is, it's not actually how Saiyans strengthening up works. A point made by Goku when Vegeta wanted to go back to the Room of Spirit & Time / Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

      Diminishing returns from zenkais gained short-term are probably part of the reason why Vegeta got completely trashed by Freeza on Namek and Goku actually put up a fight before going SSJ. Other than Goku suffering from Immense Protagonist Potential. 

      Also, if that's how it worked, it'd already be abused mercilessly by now.

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    • I see your point.

      Anyways... why did I read Krillin shouting "Senzu Bean!" in TFS Krillin's voice?

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    • If it comforts you, at least half of us did :P 

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    • Hilarious xD

      But they don't have that many senzu beans to waste. Also, Raditz's zenkai probably isn't as effective as Goku and Vegeta's, so will take a longer time.

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    • How do you know that, Stryzzar? How can Raditz's Zenkai be less effective? What about Nappa?

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    • Glad you liked my story. :D

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote:
      Glad you liked my story. :D

      I did, too.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:
      Lich Coldheart wrote:
      Glad you liked my story. :D
      I did, too.

      Thank you very much, sir. ^_^

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Hilarious xD

      But they don't have that many senzu beans to waste. Also, Raditz's zenkai probably isn't as effective as Goku and Vegeta's, so will take a longer time.

      Anyways, Stryzzar, what makes you think Raditz's Zenkai isn't as effective? Is it because he's weaker than Vegeta and Nappa that you came up to that conclusion?

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    • I don't know with certainty. But it is based on how Raditz was weak by Saiyan standards. Goku was stated to be a late bloomer, so didn't hit his potential until very late.

      Anyone, it doesnt really matter. If they did want to bring Raditz back they'd find a way to make him stronger somehow.

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    • Maybe Raditz is a late bloomer, too? Perhaps that kind of hidden, then unlocked, potential runs in the family?

      Another thought just came to mind. If he did live, and Toriyama decided to give him a wife, who would it be?

      It can be anyone.

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    • Who knows? But one things for certain, he could not have gotten as far as Goku without the many mentors Goku has had.

      A wife? Not sure Raditz would indulge in that concept. Saiyans had mates, but they didn't commit to relationships. Idk, maybe Launch.

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    • But Launch is in love with Tien.

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    • But Tien didn't want her.

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    • But it quotes directly from Tien's database on this website, "Though Tien gave her the cold shoulder, she still tenaciously persisted and she and Tien got together."

      Also, I thought after the Androids Arc ended, Vegeta and Bulma made it official and married.

      And Goku married Chi-Chi, even though he didn't know he was a Saiyan at the time.

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    • Oh. Well I don't think there's any other existing female character that's available. Toriyama will probably have to create one.

      It took a very long time for Vegeta to go that direction, where he initally thought of Bulma as expendable and didn't care for her at all. They seem to have married sometime during the 7 year time-skip, but it was a very gradual thing.

      Obviously Goku is exempt since he was raised as a human.

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    • ...What about Maron? I know technically she isn't canon, but, still. He could meet her before she meets Krillin. She might annoy him at first, but eventually he gets used to it, and... you know.

      Maybe not a good idea, but, it's the only thing I could come up with.

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    • Unless Raditz's personality changes, I can't see him with the kind of commitment required to have a wife.

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    • To Lich Coldheart: OH, GOOD GRIEF, NO!!!

      But... yeah. The only person I can see avaiable to Raditz (canon or not) is Maron. Considering his personality and Nappa's were rather tame compared to the ruthless and non-caring Vegeta, he might change along the way...

      That's my hypothesis, anyway. And I would've liked it if Maron had had more screen time...

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    • ...You're crazy. Burter's MOM? REALLY??????????????

      Why not Maron?

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    • Why no one mention Tights?

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    • Dimension Creator wrote:
      Why no one mention Tights?

      True.

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    • Vegeta wouldn't want to become relatives with Raditz. He'd final flash him into the sun.

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    • Vegeta wouldn't give two flying sh*ts about who Raditz would have married even if it was Bulma's sister.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:
      ...You're crazy. Burter's MOM? REALLY??????????????

      Why not Maron?

      First, because it was a joke.

      Second, because Raditz may be many things, but he never appeared naive enough to go after a self-centered bimbo.

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    • Or maybe he'd be like "I'm not sensing any brain waves from this one, so I guess that means I can keep it."

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote:
      https://i.imgflip.com/1d0psr.jpg

      xD

      Well, of course Maron might still annoy the heck out of Chi-Chi and Bulma, but still.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      Well, of course Maron might still annoy the heck out of Chi-Chi and Bulma, but still.

      She'd probably have to change. I doubt Raditz (or anyone else except for Krillin) would want to marry such a woman. So, she might also learn to get along with Bulma and maybe even Chi Chi.

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    • Oh look at that, Chi-Chi learned the Kaio-ken too!

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote:
      Centurion of Books wrote:

      Well, of course Maron might still annoy the heck out of Chi-Chi and Bulma, but still.

      She'd probably have to change. I doubt Raditz (or anyone else except for Krillin) would want to marry such a woman. So, she might also learn to get along with Bulma and maybe even Chi Chi.

      She probably would change around Raditz. While Krillin was too naïve to see that Maron was unwittingly insulting Chi-Chi and Bulma, Raditz might catch on, trying to tell her, "Wrong." 

      And seeing how naïve and not-so-bright Maron is at the time, Raditz, the crafty Saiyan that he is, could eventually mold her into the girlfriend he wants.

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    • Or they could break up over her cheating on him with a turtle, I suppose. 

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Oh look at that, Chi-Chi learned the Kaio-ken too!

      Did Goku teach her that?

      Then why don't Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, and the other human warriors know that?!

      Don't teach the Saiyans, they're already too powerful.

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    • Venithil wrote:
      Or they could break up over her cheating on him with a turtle, I suppose. 

      Ha! Funny.

      But if you're serious, I know Maron is dense, but she can't be stupid enough to do something like that, is she?

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    • I am not  fully convinced.

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    • Holy crap Lich where are you getting this s*it from xD

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    • Venithil wrote:
      Holy crap Lich where are you getting this s*it from xD
      Raditz and Maron - Lust

      Raditz and Maron

      I think he got that from Deviantart from one Ukyo-Ku. I got this pic from the same person.

      I believe the child they have in the pic was a result of that night.

      And I JUST found this, looking for results of pictures with Raditz and Maron together.

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    • OK, but if Ranfan ever came back in DBZ, maaaaaaybeeeee...

      But I'm sticking right now with Raditz/Maron.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:
      OK, but if Ranfan ever came back in DBZ, maaaaaaybeeeee...

      But I'm sticking right now with Raditz/Maron.

      No, never mind, Ranfan is married.

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    • Venithil wrote:
      Holy crap Lich where are you getting this s*it from xD

      What I wanna know is where the "Raging Chi-Chi" and "Goku and Raditz can share Chi-Chi" pics came from.

      Bomber XD instead of DX.

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    • Are you ignoring the possibility of Tights? Or did you like not see my comment?

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    • Dimension Creator wrote:
      Are you ignoring the possibility of Tights? Or did you like not see my comment?

      No, I didn't mean to ignore you. Sorry.

      It's just she didn't play a very dominant role in the series like her sister. Maybe if she had more screen time, maybe.

      I'm just focused on Maron at the moment because she had more scenes.

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    • I wasn't suggesting that you were ignoring me personally just the possibility of Raditz marrying Tights in this hypothetical situation.

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    • If she became a more dominant character, then sure.

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    • Venithil wrote:
      Holy crap Lich where are you getting this s*it from xD

      Google Images.

      Original Raditz image

      Original Chi Chi image

      Original Raditz and Marron family image

      After finding the image I need I use Meme Generator.

      I don't draw/edit them myself or anything like that in case you believed that.

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    • Great. More memes.

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    • Raditz the womb slayer.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Raditz the womb slayer.

      Lich, Venithil, and you are making this discussion very humorous.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      But Tien didn't want her.

      I kinda think that if FGohan killed Lapis and Lazuli he wouldn't want to score FVidel, as he isn't a love type

      But hey, a badass Gohan needs a badass Pan ^^

      "Oh look at that, Chi-Chi learned the Kaio-ken too!" - Kaio-what?

      "What about Nappa?"

      Me - What about Nappa :3?

      Nappa - ;( you didn't need to hurt my feelings

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    • Nappa could probably be redeemed too since he originally wanted to wish for Raditz back to life and to repopulate the Saiyan race by making Earth the new Planet Vegeta by breeding with all the humans. Also he is really loyal to Vegeta so he would probably go along with Vegeta's plans except letting Cell become perfect which is where Nappa tries to intervene.

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    • Nappa was an even bigger asshole than Vegeta. He killed all the Z-fighers for fun, while Vegeta killed them because they annoyed him. I can't see Nappa being redeemed tbh.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:
      Nappa could probably be redeemed too since he originally wanted to wish for Raditz back to life and to repopulate the Saiyan race by making Earth the new Planet Vegeta by breeding with all the humans. Also he is really loyal to Vegeta so he would probably go along with Vegeta's plans except letting Cell become perfect which is where Nappa tries to intervene.

      1.Of course, Nappa's just a dumbass to me ^^

      2.Nah, ALL saiyans want a good fight, even Goku would let Cell become perfect

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Nappa was an even bigger asshole than Vegeta. He killed all the Z-fighers for fun, while Vegeta killed them because they annoyed him. I can't see Nappa being redeemed tbh.

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner because he was paralyzed and deemed him worthless. Not to mention Vegeta didn't give a shit about Freeza killing his race and his planet. But Nappa would probably be pissed about it since he does seem to care about his comrades.

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    • Vegeta's no saint. But he isn't as impulsive in killing others. Nappa turned it into a game. As for killing his own comrade thing, yes I guess Nappa did better off in that area since he thought about wishing Raditz back. But I feel Nappa is much more crueler to his enemies than Vegeta was.

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    • Being more sadistic doesn't necessarily mean he was more evil. I think Vegeta back then was still number one though even if only by a little.

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    • Well its just Goten was able to go Super Saiyan apparently because he was born after his dad was able to control or maybe it has to do when Chi Chi and Goku well you know while Goku was still Super Saiyan all the time for the Cell Games. Also I believe that Broly is some type of mutant Super Saiyan.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote: Nappa was an even bigger asshole than Vegeta. He killed all the Z-fighers for fun, while Vegeta killed them because they annoyed him. I can't see Nappa being redeemed tbh.

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner because he was paralyzed and deemed him worthless. Not to mention Vegeta didn't give a shit about Freeza killing his race and his planet. But Nappa would probably be pissed about it since he does seem to care about his comrades.

      I agree with Joker Jay 779. Vegeta is the greater of two evils. If Vegeta could be made a better person, why not his two Saiyan comrades?

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    • BH Ouji wrote:

      "Oh look at that, Chi-Chi learned the Kaio-ken too!" - Kaio-what?

      Great. Now I'm remembering that one scene from "No Country for Old Namekians" with Frieza saying, "92... 355... Ooh, wow, 419." while that Namekian Warrior is making a heroic speech.

      You know, Frieza's list when he hears certain lines in a heroic speech.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      BH Ouji wrote:

      "Oh look at that, Chi-Chi learned the Kaio-ken too!" - Kaio-what?

      Great. Now I'm remembering that one scene from "No Country for Old Namekians" with Frieza saying, "92... 355... Ooh, wow, 419." while that Namekian Warrior is making a heroic speech.

      You know, Frieza's list when he hears certain lines in a heroic speech.

      And yeah Goku was the first to ever say he was gonna deck him in the schnoz.

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    • TFS Frieza: ...I'm sorry, that's a new one.

      Back to Raditz. If he did become a good guy (along with Nappa), would this also allow redemption for more bad guys?

      Who do you suppose would be other good candidates for redemption? This can even be from the movie sagas, like Cooler's Revenge, Super Android Thirteen, Bojack Unbound, whatever.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote: TFS Frieza: ...I'm sorry, that's a new one.

      Back to Raditz. If he did become a good guy (along with Nappa), would this also allow redemption for more bad guys?

      Who do you suppose would be other good candidates for redemption? This can even be from the movie sagas, like Cooler's Revenge, Super Android Thirteen, Bojack Unbound, whatever.

      A friend of mine is doing a thing with Zarbon and even Broly becoming good guys.

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    • Alright, you guys win. Vegeta is more evil.

      Although a guy like Vegeta turning good was pretty unlikely to begin with. He did spend 4 seasons still being evil.

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    • Anyone can be redeemed (except for Freeza's family and obviously-evil-demongods). 


      You just need to be accidentally revived with the Dragonballs and spent 10+ years doing character development.

      Zarbon pre-transformation appeared to be one of the less vicious of Freeza's men; and heck, Ginyu is more of a worthy adversary type until he decided to pull out the bodychange move. 

      Good Broly, though? How'd that even come along?

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    • More accurately, 10+ years being stuck with Goku.

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    • Not even half of those ten+ years was spent with Goku.

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    • Oh yeah true, but by the end of the Cell saga Vegeta had already turned good. Goku's return in the Majin Buu Saga then let him complete the rest of his development.

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    • Venithil wrote: Anyone can be redeemed (except for Freeza's family and obviously-evil-demongods). 


      You just need to be accidentally revived with the Dragonballs and spent 10+ years doing character development.

      Zarbon pre-transformation appeared to be one of the less vicious of Freeza's men; and heck, Ginyu is more of a worthy adversary type until he decided to pull out the bodychange move. 

      Good Broly, though? How'd that even come along?

      Also Cell I don't think he could be redeemed, or Dr. Gero, or the Time Breakers, or Babidi, or Dabura (that was non canon filler don't bring that up), or Demigra, I could go on.

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    • Break Through The Limit, anyone? It's about Raditz becoming good and it's probably the best fanfiction I've ever read.

      A common theme with the characters who were redeemed is that they were guided by others into their lives of evil. Tenshinhan was guided by Shen and Tao. Piccolo was influenced by his father. Vegeta was raised in a warlike culture, forced by Frieza to purge planets and treated as a second-class citizen at best and tortured at worst, depending on your take on the Planet Trade Organization.

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    • Planterobloon wrote: Break Through The Limit, anyone? It's about Raditz becoming good and it's probably the best fanfiction I've ever read.

      A common theme with the characters who were redeemed is that they were guided by others into their lives of evil. Tenshinhan was guided by Shen and Tao. Piccolo was influenced by his father. Vegeta was raised in a warlike culture, forced by Frieza to purge planets and treated as a second-class citizen at best and tortured at worst, depending on your take on the Planet Trade Organization.

      Best fanfic you ever read doesn't sound too big of a milestone. But if its a decent DBZ fanfic I am interested. Also that title are literally lyrics from the One Punch Man opening. So like does it revolve around Raditz or what?

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    • I linked that here before. It's decent for DBZ fanfics, but too much Tien fanboyism tbh.

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    • Well Tien is the only serious character there. That's the joke. But seriously I did plan on making a fanfic myself. Called Dragon Ball Alternate Timeline or Dragon Ball AT for short. Which is full of a bunch of different what-if scenarios in one story. I deleted it though cause I was proud of the description and didn't realized I could have just changed the description. I have a lot of ideas for it including Raditz becoming good. Like Cooler going to Namek instead of Freeza, the Saiyans coming to Earth during Goku's training to face Piccolo in the Budokai Tenkaichi tournament, Super Buu absorbing Janemba and Janemba's evil energy trying to possess Buu causes Buu and the Evil Energy to mix to create a fusion of the two, and many more.

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    • Super Janembuu? Uh, oh.

      For candidates of redemption, how about Jeice? I mean, what if Goku stopped Vegeta from killing Burter and Recoome like the complete jack*** that he (Vegeta) was? How do you suppose Jeice would see it?

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Venithil wrote: Anyone can be redeemed (except for Freeza's family and obviously-evil-demongods). 


      You just need to be accidentally revived with the Dragonballs and spent 10+ years doing character development.

      Zarbon pre-transformation appeared to be one of the less vicious of Freeza's men; and heck, Ginyu is more of a worthy adversary type until he decided to pull out the bodychange move. 

      Good Broly, though? How'd that even come along?

      Also Cell I don't think he could be redeemed, or Dr. Gero, or the Time Breakers, or Babidi, or Dabura (that was non canon filler don't bring that up), or Demigra, I could go on.

      Cell is Freeza's family technically (he's simultaneously Freeza's clone and his dad's clone). Time Breakers are not canon and I don't know enough about them to make a comment. I jokingly took Zamasu and the demonpeople under one moniker as 'obviously-evil-demongods'. I admittedly also don't think Gero can be redeemed and just forgot about him.


      A shame as that guy could revolutionize the energetic industry. Androids who absorb Ki? Check. Infinite energy androids? Check. Converting biomass to ki effectively? Check.


      It's his brainwashing and programming skills that sucked.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner

      Was? Vegeta always was a dick, heck when he died, the hell keepers needed over 9000 minutes to clean him up, even Broli is cute in comprassion, and after being revived, Vegeta raped Bulma after he went SSJ for the first time.

      He's a devil!!!

      "Who do you suppose would be other good candidates for redemption? This can even be from the movie sagas, like Cooler's Revenge, Super Android Thirteen, Bojack Unbound, whatever. "

      1.The 3 androids WERE good, they just were programmed to kill that damned Son Goku, the murderer of the Innocent RR Army, but if i had to choose, then Android 13 and Android 14 (15 in Toriyama's original idea) 2.I'll say Gohan would say to Bido, Zangya and Bujin that helping people can be fun too, and those 3 would gang on Bojack 3.Oh and Tullece of course, he was Kakarotto from U? and yet he was killed

      "Good Broly, though? How'd that even come along?" - Toyble's DBAF has that Broli, there's also this http://dragonballfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Broli_(BH_Saga) however since it was a bad idea, i made Broli evil again (but keeping his calmness intact)

      "I mean, what if Goku stopped Vegeta from killing Burter and Recoome like the complete jack*** that he (Vegeta) was?" - you do know that Vegeta done the right thing? I mean, would you like to spare Hitler's life?

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    • Why no one talks about tarble?He is better than others in many ways.

      1.He is the only full blooded saiyan

      2.He is supposedly good.

      3.The biggest advantage he is alive.

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    • What about Tarble? He is, as you already said, good, we were talking about what would happen if Raditz or some other villain in the series got "redeemed".

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    • It'd be really cool to see Tarble make a return, but it seems Toriyama has forgotten him, just like how he forgot Launch and maybe even Raditz, so I don't think he'll come back.

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    • "Vege-Tarble". Toriyama really outdid himself on that one.

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    • Personally I quite like the fact that their names are both derived from the same word since they are brothers (it also makes naming a fusion between the two easy). Just like how I like how Goku was named Kakarot and his brother Raditz because they are both named after roots.

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    • Tarble got a nod in the Battle of the Gods movie, but his canonicity level is low as he's technically been added by the person who more-or-less made additional Dragon Ball manga (like the one where Bardock goes back in time), and not by Toriyama himself. He's also not a villain.


      Personally I think DBZ has just the right amount of redeemed villains (Piccolo, Buu, and Vegeta being actual villains and several people being just rivals). I'd rather see a member of the Freeza race turning good/ joining a good team in actual series over more Saiyans, but I'd be down for having another Saiyan who doesn't 'steal the show' the way Goku and Vegeta do as long as he was shown as redeemed in a way that respects his original personality and Saiyan savageness. But Raditz seems too flat for me to predict if he actually has real potential and Broly is... Broly. 


      JokerJay779 wrote:
      Well Tien is the only serious character there. That's the joke. But seriously I did plan on making a fanfic myself. Called Dragon Ball Alternate Timeline or Dragon Ball AT for short. Which is full of a bunch of different what-if scenarios in one story. I deleted it though cause I was proud of the description and didn't realized I could have just changed the description. I have a lot of ideas for it including Raditz becoming good. Like Cooler going to Namek instead of Freeza, the Saiyans coming to Earth during Goku's training to face Piccolo in the Budokai Tenkaichi tournament, Super Buu absorbing Janemba and Janemba's evil energy trying to possess Buu causes Buu and the Evil Energy to mix to create a fusion of the two, and many more.

      I wanted to make a series that were alternative to DB Super and DBGT, spinning off Battle of the Gods and Goku's training with Uub immediately and preserving SSG as the strongest Saiyan form to a large degree, but real life intervened. I also ended up realizing I brought too many villains back at certain points, and even if they weren't the main threat that actually seemed boring.  I was moderately proud of the plotline where reviving people with Saiyan blood causes both Future and Present cell to go back to life, and when they die Future Cell gets the ability to freely move around Hell (remember that was anime filler) and causes himself to transform into a Janemba-type demon on purpose.It also let me show where I thought Broly placed on the power ladder, as he got his ass handed off to him several times in that plotline.  


      I approve of Tien fanboyism to a degree. Any setup that makes him as much or more of a help than present Trunks and Goten (NOT Gotenks!) are would still be viable in my eyes.

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    • Hawk9211 wrote: Why no one talks about tarble?He is better than others in many ways.

      1.He is the only full blooded saiyan

      2.He is supposedly good.

      3.The biggest advantage he is alive.

      His design is good but not his personality, he should be a dick like Vegeta since he's a prince, not some gentle saiyan

      Heck i think Toriyama based him on my saiyan twins, who while were born with a power of SSJ3 in base, had a very gentle personality and thus their parents disliked them

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    • Venithil wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      Well Tien is the only serious character there. That's the joke. But seriously I did plan on making a fanfic myself. Called Dragon Ball Alternate Timeline or Dragon Ball AT for short. Which is full of a bunch of different what-if scenarios in one story. I deleted it though cause I was proud of the description and didn't realized I could have just changed the description. I have a lot of ideas for it including Raditz becoming good. Like Cooler going to Namek instead of Freeza, the Saiyans coming to Earth during Goku's training to face Piccolo in the Budokai Tenkaichi tournament, Super Buu absorbing Janemba and Janemba's evil energy trying to possess Buu causes Buu and the Evil Energy to mix to create a fusion of the two, and many more.

      I wanted to make a series that were alternative to DB Super and DBGT, spinning off Battle of the Gods and Goku's training with Uub immediately and preserving SSG as the strongest Saiyan form to a large degree, but real life intervened. I also ended up realizing I brought too many villains back at certain points, and even if they weren't the main threat that actually seemed boring.  I was moderately proud of the plotline where reviving people with Saiyan blood causes both Future and Present cell to go back to life, and when they die Future Cell gets the ability to freely move around Hell (remember that was anime filler) and causes himself to transform into a Janemba-type demon on purpose.It also let me show where I thought Broly placed on the power ladder, as he got his ass handed off to him several times in that plotline.  


      I approve of Tien fanboyism to a degree. Any setup that makes him as much or more of a help than present Trunks and Goten (NOT Gotenks!) are would still be viable in my eyes.

      Interesting fanfic idea. I also thought of doing setups for DB AT that makes the humans more useful. And also adds the events of some of the movies into it but edited to fit into it. Another I have thought of but didn't make any work on is Dragon Ball Chrono which is heavily based on Dragon Ball Online.

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    • Venithil wrote:

      I approve of Tien fanboyism to a degree. Any setup that makes him as much or more of a help than present Trunks and Goten (NOT Gotenks!) are would still be viable in my eyes.

      Don't get me wrong, I love Tien. I would love nothing more than him and some of the humans to keep up with the Saiyans, especially given he's the only human able to make a difference by Cell Saga. But giving Tien the spirit bomb? That just doesn't work. It was tailored specifically to Goku to show his pure heart, Tien being pure is quite a stretch.

      To make Tien significant he needs his own thing, not just dumping Goku's techniques on him.

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    • BH Ouji wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner

      Was? Vegeta always was a dick, heck when he died, the hell keepers needed over 9000 minutes to clean him up, even Broli is cute in comprassion, and after being revived, Vegeta raped Bulma after he went SSJ for the first time.

      He's a devil!!!

      "Who do you suppose would be other good candidates for redemption? This can even be from the movie sagas, like Cooler's Revenge, Super Android Thirteen, Bojack Unbound, whatever. "

      1.The 3 androids WERE good, they just were programmed to kill that damned Son Goku, the murderer of the Innocent RR Army, but if i had to choose, then Android 13 and Android 14 (15 in Toriyama's original idea) 2.I'll say Gohan would say to Bido, Zangya and Bujin that helping people can be fun too, and those 3 would gang on Bojack 3.Oh and Tullece of course, he was Kakarotto from U? and yet he was killed

      "Good Broly, though? How'd that even come along?" - Toyble's DBAF has that Broli, there's also this http://dragonballfanon.wikia.com/wiki/Broli_(BH_Saga) however since it was a bad idea, i made Broli evil again (but keeping his calmness intact)

      "I mean, what if Goku stopped Vegeta from killing Burter and Recoome like the complete jack*** that he (Vegeta) was?" - you do know that Vegeta done the right thing? I mean, would you like to spare Hitler's life?

      But I really don't think the Ginyu Force were so bad. Did you ever red the fanfiction "From Enemy to Student"?

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Venithil wrote:

      I approve of Tien fanboyism to a degree. Any setup that makes him as much or more of a help than present Trunks and Goten (NOT Gotenks!) are would still be viable in my eyes.

      Don't get me wrong, I love Tien. I would love nothing more than him and some of the humans to keep up with the Saiyans, especially given he's the only human able to make a difference by Cell Saga. But giving Tien the spirit bomb? That just doesn't work. It was tailored specifically to Goku to show his pure heart, Tien being pure is quite a stretch.

      To make Tien significant he needs his own thing, not just dumping Goku's techniques on him.

      I'd dump kaioken-esque techniques on almost everyone without a transformation that I'd like to keep relevant, though. I mean, Tien and Piccolo would both benefit immensely from Kaioken (or that flamestuff Pikkon did against Cell), although I do agree Goku should be the only one with the Spirit Bomb (though I applaud the creativity of people from Supersonic Warriors in letting max-power Kuririn learn it in his storyline). 


      BH Ouji wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner

      Was? Vegeta always was a dick, heck when he died, the hell keepers needed over 9000 minutes to clean him up, even Broli is cute in comprassion, and after being revived, Vegeta raped Bulma after he went SSJ for the first time.

      I just noticed this.

      BH, I am honestly starting to become convinced you're reading and watching something different than everyone else is. 

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    • Venithil wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:

      Venithil wrote:

      I approve of Tien fanboyism to a degree. Any setup that makes him as much or more of a help than present Trunks and Goten (NOT Gotenks!) are would still be viable in my eyes.

      Don't get me wrong, I love Tien. I would love nothing more than him and some of the humans to keep up with the Saiyans, especially given he's the only human able to make a difference by Cell Saga. But giving Tien the spirit bomb? That just doesn't work. It was tailored specifically to Goku to show his pure heart, Tien being pure is quite a stretch.

      To make Tien significant he needs his own thing, not just dumping Goku's techniques on him.

      I'd dump kaioken-esque techniques on almost everyone without a transformation that I'd like to keep relevant, though. I mean, Tien and Piccolo would both benefit immensely from Kaioken (or that flamestuff Pikkon did against Cell), although I do agree Goku should be the only one with the Spirit Bomb (though I applaud the creativity of people from Supersonic Warriors in letting max-power Kuririn learn it in his storyline). 


      BH Ouji wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner

      Was? Vegeta always was a dick, heck when he died, the hell keepers needed over 9000 minutes to clean him up, even Broli is cute in comprassion, and after being revived, Vegeta raped Bulma after he went SSJ for the first time.

      I just noticed this.

      BH, I am honestly starting to become convinced you're reading and watching something different than everyone else is. 

      Like what though some kind of Supreme Kaioken? I thought about doing that but apparently that has been done in other fanfics. Basically the idea was the humans were taken to Supreme Kai world for safety instead of the Lookout. And Old Kai was training the humans so that the potential unlock process won't take ridiculously long. And when they shown them the Kaioken Kibito Kai was trying to figure out a better version. It gives a huge power increase without the harm to their bodies but the only drawback is that it can't be multiplied further.

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    • Honestly you don't need any super-kaiokens or anything like that. The techniques that are already present in the series are enough, considering Goku could get a Kaioken x20 fairly early into DBZ.

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    • True but could the Kaioken even make Yamcha more useful he had done it along with Chaotzu and Tien? Also since Namekians have regenerative abilities could they use the Kaioken more thanks to that?

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    • Kaioken is fine since Saiyans already have so many SSJ transformations. I never got why the Z-fighters didn't learn that. But Tien dying instead of Goku in the fight against Raditz, just altered the perfect formula.

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    • But they did went to King Kai though? Most likely Toriyama forgot about that.

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    • Yes they did go to King Kai, after Nappa killed all of them except Krillin and Gohan.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Yes they did go to King Kai, after Nappa killed all of them except Krillin and Gohan.

      Then why did they never get the Kaioken minus Krillin? Also couldn't Krillin have trained at King Kai's planet while he was dead for a while?

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    • There is/was no logical explanation as to why they didn't learn it, one could argue that it was because it became one of Goku's signature techniques and they didn't want to let someone else use it but the Kamehameha is also one of Goku's signature techniques and everyone plus one can use it.

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    • He doesn't even use it anymore since becoming a Super Saiyan though. Most logical conclusion Toriyama forgot for them to use Kaioken.

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    • Yes Toriyama probably forgot, but I think he forgot to make King Kai teach them at all. They only ever did the gravity training.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Yes Toriyama probably forgot, but I think he forgot to make King Kai teach them at all. They only ever did the gravity training.

      Plus could they even do the Spirit Bomb? Krillin was shown able to use it when Goku gave him the power so he might be able to. Tien was evil once too but he still might be able to use it. Chaotzu most likely. But Yamcha probably would be the only one unable to use the Spirit Bomb.

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    • Logically, no one other than Goku (or Gohan and Goten) would have the pure heartedness to do it. Tien was technically a reformed villain, so I doubt he's pure.

      Even if Krillin can wield it, he can't create it. His mind is just too dirty to be pure.

      Yamcha. No comment..

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:
      True but could the Kaioken even make Yamcha more useful he had done it along with Chaotzu and Tien? Also since Namekians have regenerative abilities could they use the Kaioken more thanks to that?

      Does EVERYONE hate Yamcha? Why can't one certain character have anything nice?

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote: Yes Toriyama probably forgot, but I think he forgot to make King Kai teach them at all. They only ever did the gravity training.

      Plus could they even do the Spirit Bomb? Krillin was shown able to use it when Goku gave him the power so he might be able to. Tien was evil once too but he still might be able to use it. Chaotzu most likely. But Yamcha probably would be the only one unable to use the Spirit Bomb.

      You say that because you think he's weak.

      You know, I might start a thread later on about why Yamcha deserved Bulma more than anyone: he deserves something nice, and he has nothing because of Vegeta. And Krillin (who you'd rarely expect to see get someone) scored Maron and Android Eighteen! Can Yamcha have nothing nice?!

      Back to Raditz. If he became good, who would he fight in the series? I was thinking he'd take Krillin's place in fighting Imperfect Cell at the airport, but does a better job and doesn't get pummeled in the end. Also maybe fighting alongside Goku against Burter and Jeice, as well as maybe battling Frieza before Goku is recuperated.

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    • I don't hate Yamcha per say, but don't really care for him after Toriyama turned him into him into a punchbag. He's just the guy who keeps losing first round of every tournament or getting killed/injured by the weaker villain. He was decent in Dragon Ball back when he was a desert bandit though, but pity that amounted to nothing.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:
      JokerJay779 wrote:
      True but could the Kaioken even make Yamcha more useful he had done it along with Chaotzu and Tien? Also since Namekians have regenerative abilities could they use the Kaioken more thanks to that?
      Does EVERYONE hate Yamcha? Why can't one certain character have anything nice?

      Back when I was planning things for my fanfic, Yamcha didn't really get any 'moments of glory', but after Tien bullied him into training he actually became competent again (a lot stronger than namek-level Goku, not counting Kaioken and SSJ), and he was mentioned to rock at baseball even with only minimal Ki usage. 

      I think I made him beat up Nappa and the Ginyu Force easily and do well against Lord Slug's men in the saga where Cell turned Janemba-ic. Probably a couple other fights and fusions with Tien, too. I definitely had Tiencha kill a Cell Junior. With Kaioken, that fusion could also surpass SSJ1 Goku in the same saga, and match unboosted Piccolo. 


      I don't dislike Yamcha, but the reason he remained weak and not liked by fans is that he himself just stopped training at some point. He's also in the position similar to Kuririn; he doesn't do enough 'badass' stuff for people to remember his good moments. 

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    • Fist of Wolf Fang Gale though. That was too cool for Yamcha, that Gotenks had to steal it.

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    • True enough.


      I think DBZ / DB Super could benefit from OCCASIONALLY borrowing the One Piece formula; everyone has a fight or two, but it's clear only one or two characters can take out the main boss.

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    • Since after this arc goku and vegeta will most likely stay with whis it would be a good idea to have little spin offs of different characters like picollo,gohan etc.

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    • Venithil wrote:
      Centurion of Books wrote:
      JokerJay779 wrote:
      True but could the Kaioken even make Yamcha more useful he had done it along with Chaotzu and Tien? Also since Namekians have regenerative abilities could they use the Kaioken more thanks to that?
      Does EVERYONE hate Yamcha? Why can't one certain character have anything nice?
      Back when I was planning things for my fanfic, Yamcha didn't really get any 'moments of glory', but after Tien bullied him into training he actually became competent again (a lot stronger than namek-level Goku, not counting Kaioken and SSJ), and he was mentioned to rock at baseball even with only minimal Ki usage. 

      I think I made him beat up Nappa and the Ginyu Force easily and do well against Lord Slug's men in the saga where Cell turned Janemba-ic. Probably a couple other fights and fusions with Tien, too. I definitely had Tiencha kill a Cell Junior. With Kaioken, that fusion could also surpass SSJ1 Goku in the same saga, and match unboosted Piccolo. 


      I don't dislike Yamcha, but the reason he remained weak and not liked by fans is that he himself just stopped training at some point. He's also in the position similar to Kuririn; he doesn't do enough 'badass' stuff for people to remember his good moments. 

      It seems all the characters who aren't Saiyans became irrelevant the second someone besides Goku went Super Saiyan.

      As for Krillin, he got a hot chick, but Yamcha lost his to Vegeta, the guy who indirectly killed him. If Yamcha survived that Saibaman, he wouldn't have suffered through all that grief.

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    • Well at least Piccolo lasted longer than the other non-Saiyans. And he still might have a shot of becoming relevant again.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      As for Krillin, he got a hot chick, but Yamcha lost his to Vegeta, the guy who indirectly killed him. If Yamcha survived that Saibaman, he wouldn't have suffered through all that grief.

      Gonna need a senzu bean for that one. :P

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Well at least Piccolo lasted longer than the other non-Saiyans. And he still might have a shot of becoming relevant again.

      Picollo absorbed kami,kami had god ki.Picollo masters it and becomes relevent.

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    • No I meant Yamcha couldn't use the Spirit Bomb cause he's the least pure compared to the others.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:
      No I meant Yamcha couldn't use the Spirit Bomb cause he's the least pure compared to the others.

      Come on, I don't believe that jack that Yamcha cheated. If anything, Bulma could have cheated on Yamcha for Vegeta (slut) and lied to her child (Future Trunks) about it, and that's why Trunks told Goku that story.

      But that's not the discussion, and I made a separate thread for this. Our discussion is a good Raditz (and maybe a good Nappa).

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    • Raditz could have been revived after Cell's defeat by Gohan who after being saddened by his dad's decision to stay dead decided he wanted to make peace with his uncle.

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    • Hey, good idea.

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    • I still doubt Nappa could go Super Saiyan. Raditz maybe.

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    • But if Nappa still had his tail, maybe he could discover a new Ape transformation, like the Oozaru, only smaller, like an 8-foot tall version. That would be pretty cool.

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    • I don't think we need anymore transformations not with the Kaioken in existence.

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    • If Krillin, Yamcha, Tien, Chiaotzu, and the other human warriors could do that, they'd be relevant again.

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    • For a while, maybe, but they'd still need something better to keep up with the Buu Arc, much less the gods. Kaioshin-ken, anyone?

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    • They need more techniques that don't rely on physical raw power, like Tien's Kikoho, Krillin's Destructo Disk, Solar Flare, or mystical techniques. The humans probably won't ever be able to catch up in physical attributes, but they can still be useful in other ways.

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    • Yeah like Chaotzu being able to improve his psychic powers to be able to stop time like Guldo.

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    • ^Yes, perfect example there.

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    • Heck for Dragon Ball AT I thought of even Chi Chi joining the fight with the others and she learned a technique where she hits an opponents pressure points so that they lose feeling in the points she striked.

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    • Oh, that would be pretty cool, too! That, and if she fought, she might not be so overprotective over Gohan, because she'd more than understand the risks.

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    • I find it more likely that she'd take the "I fight so you don't have to" stance. 

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    • I am more than certain that Chi Chi's overprotectiveness is the result of her know exactly what the risks are as she is a martial artist as well.

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    • I guess you're right, but at least she has reason to gripe, unlike Bulma.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:
      I guess you're right, but at least she has reason to gripe, unlike Bulma.

      https://i.imgflip.com/1df291.jpg

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    • O_O

      Uh... Umm... VENITHIL SAID IT!!!!

      (Runs for the hills)

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    • Yeah she basically forced the others to allow her to join the training too so she could protect Gohan however she would end up dying in Dragon Ball AT along with Yajirobe and Chaotzu and Launch who also tried to help.

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    • Chi-chi died?


      Oh boy.

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    • Well Goku would be so furious he would kill the person who did it with no mercy. But imagine the rage boost Gohan would get from that.

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    • He might go Super Saiyan 3?

      Wait, can you achieve Super Saiyan 3 through great rage like the two previous Ki enhancing Super Saiyan forms (SSJ1 and SSJ2)?

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    • It's really unknown. THe only two people to achieve SSJ3 were Gotenks and Goku, even though both Vegeta and Cabe are certainly strong enough to do that; furthermore Vegeta didn't achieve it against Beerus.


      Feels to me like SSJ3 has some unique requirement, since Goku achieved it in the other world, and when he returned to Earth for a day he burned off 'time' for 'energy', and Gotenks achieved it while fused and burned off fusion time as well according to Trunks' words.

      Future Trunks, who in the manga has mastered SSJ2 and can match Goku SSJ3 with it hasn't achieved SSJ3 either. It feels like power + anger isn't enough.

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    • I wonder if in the manga Super Saiyan 3 will be what Trunks attains as opposed to this new one in the anime.

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    • Is the manga different to the anime? In the anime SSJ2 Trunks never really equalled SSJ3 Goku, who blocked his sword with his fingers.

      Vegeta logically should be able to turn SSJ3, but I guess they like giving him a trend of skipping forms. He skipped from SSJ2 to SSJ4, SSJ2 to SSB (without going through SSJ4).

      But it's indeed true that SSJ3 is extremely demanding. Goku said he could achieve it in the afterlife where time didn't matter. I'm guessing that applies to HTC too. Maybe Vegeta needs a time free place to acquire it.

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    • I actually theoretized what Trunks gained *is* the real Super Saiyan 3.


      Back in the day, there was a theory that explained Super Saiyan 2 could only be achieved when you mastered Super Saiyan 1, which is why Vegeta and Trunks initially unlocked Ascended & Ultra Super Saiyan Forms. Later, Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta were the only ones with the form, and Gotenks who never used it but arguably has to have it, was a fusion with a ridiculous powerlevel.


      Now, what connects ASSJ, USSJ, and SSJ3?

      They're reached by someone who didn't master the previous form, and they give a big boost in power at a price (Ascended Super Saiyan arguably doesn't have much of a price other than speed not being completely up to date with the powerlevel and a bigger strain on the body/energy drain). 

      But, in the manga, Trunks did master SSJ2 and could boost its power to let him match SSJ3 Goku. 


      I held the theory that there might be a different level of SSJ branching from SSJ2 before because of this, but only when the Super manga showed Trunks mastering SSJ2 did it go from "Bull**it Trunks Powerup" to "What if I was right?" 

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    • @Stryzzar Yeah the manga is different to the anime even if only by a little. In the manga Goku is able to go Super Saiyan God, instead of using Kaioken Times 10 he just went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan which is ten times stronger than Super Saiyan God, Trunks as Super Saiyan 2 equalled Goku as a Super Saiyan 3, Goku briefly went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when he b*tch slapped Trunks but he did it because he was being petty. These differences in the execution of the plot makes me theorize that he might also get Super Saiyan 3.

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    • They're different branches of the Super Saiyan heirarchy of power.

      Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan boost physical power.

      Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 boost Ki power.

      You have to be a normal Super Saiyan or a Mastered Super Saiyan to be able to become a Super Saiyan 2, and you need to be a Super Saiyan 2 to become a Super Saiyan 3.

      What makes no sense if SSJ2 Trunks matching SSJ3 Goku. That sounds like Krillin becoming powerful enough to match Frieza in his Second Form. And we all know how that turned out in the anime.

      Yeah, I agree with you, Venithil. This sounds like a bulls**t power-up.

      But then again...

      TFS Vegeta: POWER LEVELS ARE BULLS**T!!!

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    • I have noticed that SSJ3 seems to be similar to ASSJ and USSJ, in that they're both forced transformations that have major drawbacks. SSJ3 could very well be ASSJ2 or something similar.

      Venithil raises an interesting point, since Trunks' new SSJ form was triggered by anger, so it could be the "true" transformation. MasakoX made a video theorizing that what Trunks had was the "missing link" between the normal SSJ line and the God line.

      @Dimension Creator, okay thanks. Based on what little I've seen of the manga, I prefer that over the anime way more. Like how they executed the Trunks fighting Dabura, and involving the Z-sword. So much more satisfying than what the anime.

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    • Goku's Super Saiyan form was awakened by anger when Frieza killed Krillin. Would that make Goku's transformation "true" as well?

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    • Of course. I thought that was implied.

      The Super Saiyan transformations were defined as coming out of necessity rather than desire. So only upon hitting enough anger could the form be reached. SSJ and SSJ2 both fit that bill, but ASSJ, USSJ, and SSJ3 were forced forms.

      I guess Pseudo SSJ technically counts, but pity that's not canon.

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    • Heck Vegeta's Super Saiyan form was unlocked because of how angry he was that he couldn't do it like Kakarot.

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    • @Stryzzar So you read the manga already? I guess my previous comment was unnecessary than.

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    • No I haven't. I've just seen some scans.

      That's why I asked.

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    • Guys, when Stryzzar said 'true' he meant specifically in this instance, as in comparison of SSJ3 with Trunks' new transformation.

      Nobody's arguing anyone's first Super Saiyan form was less true than the other person's first Super Saiyan Form, because everyone's super saiyan 1 is basically the exact same thing (except for Broly's forms and Goku's Pseudo-SSJ).

      However, since :

      - Trunks mastered SSJ2 before reaching the new form, similarly to how Gohan mastered SSJ before reaching SSJ2

      - Trunks transformed into this new form out of anger

      We're considering if maybe it's relation to SSJ levels is making it the 'true' Super Saiyan 3 Form, while what we've been calling SSJ3 so far is more related to the Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan forms.


      Of course this is just a theory since nobody ever said you *have* to master a form to reach the next one, rather than just having enough power and anger. It could still be 'Bull**it Future Trunks powerup."

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    • Once again, like TFS Vegeta once said before...

      "POWER LEVELS ARE BULLS**T!!!"

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    • No Venithil the transformation one is that other one you're thinking of I believe. This one: http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:564258

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    • I'd love to see Broly vs SSGSS Goku, if only so we can hear one of One Punch Man's themes in Dragon Ball Super.


      Broly's the big guy.  Goku is the bald guy for a change.



      JokerJay, we did just start talking about Trunks' new form, though. 

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    • I wouldn't like Broly to get trashed so easily.

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    • Well, you can also re-watch Beerus vs Majin Buu for comparison, the relation of power would be very similar. 

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    • I like to think Broly would get several power boosts before facing SSGSS Goku. Like some training from Vados.

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    • While Vados is literally the only person in DB Super I could ever see training Broly, she has absolute no real reason or motivation to do so. Though it could happen under some extreme circumstances 

      But LSSJ / LUSSJ Broly, even one zenkai above what he presented in Movie 10 vs SSB Goku? No contest. 


      And it's a non-contest fight I would, personally, enjoy seeing.

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    • Venithil wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:

      Venithil wrote:

      I approve of Tien fanboyism to a degree. Any setup that makes him as much or more of a help than present Trunks and Goten (NOT Gotenks!) are would still be viable in my eyes.

      Don't get me wrong, I love Tien. I would love nothing more than him and some of the humans to keep up with the Saiyans, especially given he's the only human able to make a difference by Cell Saga. But giving Tien the spirit bomb? That just doesn't work. It was tailored specifically to Goku to show his pure heart, Tien being pure is quite a stretch.

      To make Tien significant he needs his own thing, not just dumping Goku's techniques on him.

      I'd dump kaioken-esque techniques on almost everyone without a transformation that I'd like to keep relevant, though. I mean, Tien and Piccolo would both benefit immensely from Kaioken (or that flamestuff Pikkon did against Cell), although I do agree Goku should be the only one with the Spirit Bomb (though I applaud the creativity of people from Supersonic Warriors in letting max-power Kuririn learn it in his storyline). 



      BH Ouji wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Well Nappa did kill most of the Z Fighters true but Vegeta was still the bigger dick since he killed his loyal servant/partner

      Was? Vegeta always was a dick, heck when he died, the hell keepers needed over 9000 minutes to clean him up, even Broli is cute in comprassion, and after being revived, Vegeta raped Bulma after he went SSJ for the first time.

      I just noticed this.

      BH, I am honestly starting to become convinced you're reading and watching something different than everyone else is. 

      Nope, Vegeta was a evil douchebag and forever be a douche, Toriyama must've smoked to much weed when he turned him into a good guy, "Goku's brother" is a better person

      "Does EVERYONE hate Yamcha?" I actually respect Yamcha, despite being a Vegeta fanboy

      However i don't know why everybody hate PAN, i've seen 3 episodes with her in Z and haven't understood why people hate her and call her "annoying"

      "But that's not the discussion, and I made a separate thread for this. Our discussion is a good Raditz"

      Well if you want GOOD Raditz, look for ARDBZ Raditz and Ghost Raditz http://www.dragonball-multiverse.com/en/page-649.html

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    • I thought about a good Raditz for Dragon Ball AT. In this timmeline Kakarot gets to Earth a couple years later like at the age of five cause Freeza learned of Broly's higher power level and had the idea to have be raised to be a perfect soldier so that he could be molded into a loyal weapon and perhaps could kill Vegeta for him if he were to rebel and has Broly moved away from Kakarot. Bardock stops the guys about to send Kakarot to Earth saying he decided that it should be better if her were stronger first, like power level of 2 what a bitch, but also because he saw a vision of Goku and Raditz fighting each other to the death and wants to prevent that.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:
      I thought about a good Raditz for Dragon Ball AT. In this timmeline Kakarot gets to Earth a couple years later like at the age of five cause Freeza learned of Broly's higher power level and had the idea to have be raised to be a perfect soldier so that he could be molded into a loyal weapon and perhaps could kill Vegeta for him if he were to rebel and has Broly moved away from Kakarot. Bardock stops the guys about to send Kakarot to Earth saying he decided that it should be better if her were stronger first, like power level of 2 what a bitch, but also because he saw a vision of Goku and Raditz fighting each other to the death and wants to prevent that.

      Thats legit im okay with this

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    • Seraphimon44 wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      I thought about a good Raditz for Dragon Ball AT. In this timmeline Kakarot gets to Earth a couple years later like at the age of five cause Freeza learned of Broly's higher power level and had the idea to have be raised to be a perfect soldier so that he could be molded into a loyal weapon and perhaps could kill Vegeta for him if he were to rebel and has Broly moved away from Kakarot. Bardock stops the guys about to send Kakarot to Earth saying he decided that it should be better if her were stronger first, like power level of 2 what a bitch, but also because he saw a vision of Goku and Raditz fighting each other to the death and wants to prevent that.

      Thats legit im okay with this

      Thanks for liking my idea.

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    • YOU AND YOUR D**N MEMES!!!

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Seraphimon44 wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      I thought about a good Raditz for Dragon Ball AT. In this timmeline Kakarot gets to Earth a couple years later like at the age of five cause Freeza learned of Broly's higher power level and had the idea to have be raised to be a perfect soldier so that he could be molded into a loyal weapon and perhaps could kill Vegeta for him if he were to rebel and has Broly moved away from Kakarot. Bardock stops the guys about to send Kakarot to Earth saying he decided that it should be better if her were stronger first, like power level of 2 what a bitch, but also because he saw a vision of Goku and Raditz fighting each other to the death and wants to prevent that.
      Thats legit im okay with this
      Thanks for liking my idea.

      But then what would happen to us??????????

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    • Worst case scenario Piccolo and Goku ally and own the planet.


      Likely semi-good case scenario Goku actually cannot defeat Piccolo because he never gets access to Ultra Divine Water and Piccolo wins, but Earth is still ravaged by Saiyans later.


      Best case scenario Goku still somehow gets friendly values installed in him (he does get to spend a lot of time amongst the Earthlings even if he's send to Earth already a little older), and not much really changes other than him suggesting they conquer Earthlings rather than killing them when Raditz arrives, or offering to go with his brother in return for Earth's safety. 

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    • But the Androids...

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Seraphimon44 wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      I thought about a good Raditz for Dragon Ball AT. In this timmeline Kakarot gets to Earth a couple years later like at the age of five cause Freeza learned of Broly's higher power level and had the idea to have be raised to be a perfect soldier so that he could be molded into a loyal weapon and perhaps could kill Vegeta for him if he were to rebel and has Broly moved away from Kakarot. Bardock stops the guys about to send Kakarot to Earth saying he decided that it should be better if her were stronger first, like power level of 2 what a bitch, but also because he saw a vision of Goku and Raditz fighting each other to the death and wants to prevent that.
      Thats legit im okay with this
      Thanks for liking my idea.

      But then what would happen to us??????????

      What do you mean what would happen to us?

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Seraphimon44 wrote:


      JokerJay779 wrote:
      I thought about a good Raditz for Dragon Ball AT. In this timmeline Kakarot gets to Earth a couple years later like at the age of five cause Freeza learned of Broly's higher power level and had the idea to have be raised to be a perfect soldier so that he could be molded into a loyal weapon and perhaps could kill Vegeta for him if he were to rebel and has Broly moved away from Kakarot. Bardock stops the guys about to send Kakarot to Earth saying he decided that it should be better if her were stronger first, like power level of 2 what a bitch, but also because he saw a vision of Goku and Raditz fighting each other to the death and wants to prevent that.
      Thats legit im okay with this
      Thanks for liking my idea.
      But then what would happen to us??????????
      What do you mean what would happen to us?

      If Goku/Kakarot doesn't come to Earth, what would happen to our planet???

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    • From what I understood Goku was just supposed to come to Earth later in this scenario.

      But any scenario that doesn't allow Goku to drink the Ultra Divine Water and/or go to King Kai's planet to obtain Kaioken and Genki Dama may end up being a problem for Earth in the long run. 

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    • Yeah. Especially with villains like Emperor Pilaf, The Red Ribbon Army, Demon King Piccolo, Frieza, King Cold, Cooler, Lord Slug, Turles, Doctor Gero, the Androids (Thirteen, Fourteen, Fifteen, Sixteen, Seventeen, Eighteen, and Nineteen), Cell, Broly, Hatchiyack, Bojack, Babidi, Majin Buu, Hirudegarn, Beerus, Zamasu, Goku Black, Doctor Myuu, Baby, Super Android Seventeen, The Shadow Dragons, and Omega Shenron.

      I just had to make a list... Heh heh...

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    • Honestly if Goku had received some training from the Saiyans and then went to Earth at age five, if he could somehow be convinced to fight against the same opponents he did before only starting from Piccolo might he have any trouble. But if he can't drink Ultra Divine Water, he doesn't gain the ability to sense Ki out of thin air (and if Goku was more Saiyan-like, others might not be so keen to train him). And if he ends up having to face Raditz, Vegeta, or worst of all, Ginyu or Freeza without Kaioken, he'd be in real trouble. 

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    • Yeah... That would be bad.

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    • No Goku would go to Earth at the age of 5. He was like 10 at the start of Dragon Ball. Goku would have lost his memory similar to the original timeline by bumping his head on impact in a crash landing. He is still raised by Grandpa Gohan for a few years and everything goes the way it did in Dragon Ball. Because after losing his memory he can't let loose the power he gained on Planet Vegeta and forgot how to fly.

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    • Well actually the ki sense thing was only added in by the anime. In the manga he didn't gain ki sense until after training with Kami. In fact Goku didn't seem to display ki sense until Z when he felt Raditz's ki.

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    • Most likely something he picked up later on

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:
      Yeah. Especially with villains like Emperor Pilaf,

      I know you were just making a list, but I'm still laughing from the idea of Goku needing the Kaio-Ken to beat Pilaf. I'm imagining Pilaf transforming into this ridiculously buff form so he can stand up to the Kaio-Ken.

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    • Speaking of which could Kid Goku during the first year of training for the 23rd World Tournament with Piccolo and a younger and a bit weaker Raditz both beat the younger and weaker Nappa and Vegeta by taking advantage of their weakness in their Saiyan tails (when it was tried on Nappa and didn't work that was anime filler I believe). Also Kid Goku and Raditz gotten prep time in the Room of Spirit Time by going in for a few months in Hyperbolic time coming out in a few Earth Hours or whatever. Going back in after a couple weeks of resting and small training and repeat and getting a bunch of Zenkais as a result?

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    • Doubt it. Vegeta as a kid was already strong enough to kill 3 Saibaman, which are at Raditz's power level. Plus, training tails is something the elite Saiyans get taught. Vegeta as part of the royal family would have been well informed on that matter.

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    • Oh then there goes that idea. Gonna have to have the Saiyan saga happen at the same time as in the original timeline then for Dragon Ball AT.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Vegeta as a kid was already strong enough to kill 3 Saibaman, which are at Raditz's power level.

      That's weird, knowing Vegeta was as strong as Krillin, once, considering he (Krillin) once killed the equivalent of 3 Raditz with a Spread Energy Blast.

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    • Speaking of Raditz, where were we when we last left that subject?

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    • Well they had to amp up the human Z-fighters when Vegeta and Nappa arrived, otherwise they'd get stomped even worse than they did.

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    • Well Raditz became good or would have since I haven't typed that part out yet in Dragon Ball AT but thought it in my head because by helping five year old Goku get stronger on Planet Vegeta he developed more of a bond with him and when faced with Goku is more reluctant to kill him but then Gine shows up who went to Earth as well in a separate pod but her pod and Kakarot's got separated and crashed in different location and tried to find her son. But because her son was now known as Goku she had trouble finding him. Anyway Gine stops Raditz from about to be killing Goku and steps in between them and Raditz is even more reluctant to kill now that he has to kill both his own mother and his brother. He then flies off angrily. He then hears about the Dragon Balls and thought about using their power to make his brother and mother more ruthless like him but then Vegeta is on the Scouter who heard the whole thing cause the communicator was accidentally activated during the battle earlier. And Vegeta is mad at Raditz for thinking about wasting a wish like that and for not killing his "failure of a brother" and that he and Nappa will come to kill him and all the Earthlings and get the Dragon Balls. Then Raditz has no choice but to work with his brother to get ready for the Vegeta and Nappa.

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    • Issue I have with this scenario is that :

      a) Freeza hearing of Broly would make him blow up planet Vegeta faster, not slower.

      b) Assuming Raditz is stronger than Gine and bonds with Kakarot, nothing stops him from knocking them unconscious and taking them by force when put in the stressful situation of Vegeta admonishing him. He certainly wouldn't understand why they even care about the humans and would simply fix the issue for them if he cared enough what they do and what happens to his family, in my opinion, at least.

      c) Why's Gine even on Earth? Saiyans don't seem to send more than one child to conquer a planet, and certainly never sent both child and parent...

      Centurion of Books wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:
      Vegeta as a kid was already strong enough to kill 3 Saibaman, which are at Raditz's power level.
      That's weird, knowing Vegeta was as strong as Krillin, once, considering he (Krillin) once killed the equivalent of 3 Raditz with a Spread Energy Blast.

      As weird as thinking a farmer with a shotgun was once stronger than newborn Goku?

      Or that Kuririn was stronger than Goku before they started training together?

      Or that Goku and Piccolo would be trashed by Saibamen if it was Vegeta and Nappa that came to Earth instead of Raditz?

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    • How could you doubt Farmer with Shotgun? He could solo Beerus!

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    • @Venithil Well the answer for C was that Gine basically stole a Pod during Freeza attacking Planet Vegeta and while Bardock was trying to stop him. But yeah perhaps I do need to do a lot more rethinking about Dragon Ball AT. Maybe I should do Dragon Ball Chrono instead.

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    • I never really understood where that particular joke/meme came from...

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    • Raditz needs badly to go SS3. Someone write a story in which he gets killed by Cell 2nd Form so he can train in the underworld till the middle of the Buu Saga, thus unlocking SS3. Then, the Z fighters can revive Raditz so he can fuse with Goku into SS3 Karrotz. 


      Also, no one messes with the farmer.

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    • Lol.

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    • ...Seriously...?

      Anyways, I thought that it would be pretty cool if he fought Imperfect Cell at the airport in Krillin's stead. He'd be able to hold to hold Cell off a lot better and not get his head stuck in that airplane like Krillin.

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    • One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:
      One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.

      Oh, dang, that's a good idea. But when does he come back to find Goku? During the Vegeta Saga when Vegeta is about to kill Nappa?

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.

      Oh, dang, that's a good idea. But when does he come back to find Goku? During the Vegeta Saga when Vegeta is about to kill Nappa?

      Perhaps. Also according to Saiyan logic Raditz would get a Zenkai. The way he would have been injured is him managing the break free from the Full Nelson but still get badly grazed on the side of his body.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.
      Oh, dang, that's a good idea. But when does he come back to find Goku? During the Vegeta Saga when Vegeta is about to kill Nappa?
      Perhaps. Also according to Saiyan logic Raditz would get a Zenkai. The way he would have been injured is him managing the break free from the Full Nelson but still get badly grazed on the side of his body.

      Of course, the reason I want Raditz there at that very moment is so he can save Nappa before Vegeta kills him, but make it appear that he still hit and killed him.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:
      One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.
      Oh, dang, that's a good idea. But when does he come back to find Goku? During the Vegeta Saga when Vegeta is about to kill Nappa?
      Perhaps. Also according to Saiyan logic Raditz would get a Zenkai. The way he would have been injured is him managing the break free from the Full Nelson but still get badly grazed on the side of his body.

      Of course, the reason I want Raditz there at that very moment is so he can save Nappa before Vegeta kills him, but make it appear that he still hit and killed him.

      Or Raditz punches Vegeta before he was about to blast Nappa.

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    • JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:


      JokerJay779 wrote:
      One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.
      Oh, dang, that's a good idea. But when does he come back to find Goku? During the Vegeta Saga when Vegeta is about to kill Nappa?
      Perhaps. Also according to Saiyan logic Raditz would get a Zenkai. The way he would have been injured is him managing the break free from the Full Nelson but still get badly grazed on the side of his body.
      Of course, the reason I want Raditz there at that very moment is so he can save Nappa before Vegeta kills him, but make it appear that he still hit and killed him.
      Or Raditz punches Vegeta before he was about to blast Nappa.

      OOOOH... I can picture Vegeta's reaction to Raditz doing that.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:

      JokerJay779 wrote:

      Centurion of Books wrote:


      JokerJay779 wrote:
      One time I thought of a scenario of Raditz becoming good is survivng the fight but badly injured and he falls unconscious somewhere and is helped to recover by a human family. After living with them for about a year to recover Raditz then comes to understand why Goku wants to protect the humans.
      Oh, dang, that's a good idea. But when does he come back to find Goku? During the Vegeta Saga when Vegeta is about to kill Nappa?
      Perhaps. Also according to Saiyan logic Raditz would get a Zenkai. The way he would have been injured is him managing the break free from the Full Nelson but still get badly grazed on the side of his body.
      Of course, the reason I want Raditz there at that very moment is so he can save Nappa before Vegeta kills him, but make it appear that he still hit and killed him.
      Or Raditz punches Vegeta before he was about to blast Nappa.

      OOOOH... I can picture Vegeta's reaction to Raditz doing that.

      Also Raditz should have new moves named after months. Like January Punch where he charges energy with his fist and then punches his opponent with it. Perhaps he uses that move on Vegeta.

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    • Call it January Knockout.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote: Call it January Knockout.

      I like it I like it. Also if Raditz saves Nappa from Vegeta could he perhaps become a good guy too since his partner almost killed him? Its also gonna be real awkward when they have to work together again during the Androids, Cell, and Buu.

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    • Maybe it could also alter things so that there's no Vegeta/Bulma and no Trunks, but instead either some other kid of Vegeta or Future Gohan coming back in time...

      Sorry, I'm a Yamcha fan. I still wish Vegeta never ruined his relationship with Bulma.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote: Maybe it could also alter things so that there's no Vegeta/Bulma and no Trunks, but instead either some other kid of Vegeta or Future Gohan coming back in time...

      Sorry, I'm a Yamcha fan. I still wish Vegeta never ruined his relationship with Bulma.

      Yeah we talked about it in the other forum and I feel sorry for him as well. He would survive against Nappa and Vegeta along Tien cause they were slightly stronger in this timeline cause they went in the Room of Spirit and Time for a few months. Piccolo in the battle survives too cause Chi Chi who joined the fight took the blast intended for Gohan instead. Tien, Piccolo, and Yamcha get Kami to take them to Other World so they could go train with King Kai themselves.

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    • But then, they'd never meet Frieza because Piccolo isn't dead, so they wouldn't have to go to Namek, and therefore, Goku, Vegeta, and Raditz don't become Super Saiyans, and everyone dies to the Androids.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote: But then, they'd never meet Frieza because Piccolo isn't dead, so they wouldn't have to go to Namek, and therefore, Goku, Vegeta, and Raditz don't become Super Saiyans, and everyone dies to the Androids.

      Well true but what if they still went to Namek to stop Vegeta from getting the Dragon Balls there? Like Raditz could figure it out since he knows Vegeta a lot more then the others.

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    • And Nappa, too. Oh, yeah! I just remembered Chiaotzu would be dead, too. So, they'd go to Namek, the whole bunch of Z Fighters. 

      Can you make Goku actually kill Frieza with the Angry Kamehameha? King Cold can still come to Earth, but have a half-Saiyan child of Vegeta and Tights fight him.

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    • Guys, you're going the 'redeem all the Saiyans' route again.

      Nappa kills children face to face, and when clearly defeated actualyl AIMS to do that to spite his opponents.


      Raditz tries to kill you for showing him mercy. 

      Even if they joined Z-fighters in a temporary alliance, they'd act MUCH like Vegeta did on Namek, and three evil teammates can mess you up far more than one can. 

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    • (ignoring Venithil): Whatcha think, Joker Jay?

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    • I don't really care about Nappa. Raditz is the only one I wished was redeemed. And Centurion instead of thinking of possible suitors for Vegeta to knock up why don't you just have Yamcha date Bulma for a short amount time or maybe even not at all. That solves the problem easily.

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    • OK, I admit, he's a sadistic sonuvagun in the original anime, but I can't help but think of TFS Nappa.

      "For PONYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!"

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    • Well honestly I don't really care about Nappa's or Raditz's personalities and if Raditz wasn't Goku's brother I would have said 'Screw him.'

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    • Well, true. But the reason I wanted the Saiyan Triad to live is because, well, Raditz and Nappa weren't as cruel as Vegeta. I mran, Vegeta? Why not let the brother live instead of his master? The master was much more evil. He was so cruel as to kick Goku when he was defenseless (after his fight with Android Nineteen) and not care about his family dying when Doctor Gero knocked them out of the sky.

      Also, people prefer a dark attraction spawned from passion (Vegeta/Bulma) instead of a coupling that should've ended in happiness and marriage (Yamcha/Bulma). 

      Vegeta is a total d**k. I like the guy, but sometimes I hate him, too.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote: Well, true. But the reason I wanted the Saiyan Triad to live is because, well, Raditz and Nappa weren't as cruel as Vegeta. I mran, Vegeta? Why not let the brother live instead of his master? The master was much more evil. He was so cruel as to kick Goku when he was defenseless (after his fight with Android Nineteen) and not care about his family dying when Doctor Gero knocked them out of the sky.

      Also, people prefer a dark attraction spawned from passion (Vegeta/Bulma) instead of a coupling that should've ended in happiness and marriage (Yamcha/Bulma). 

      Vegeta is a total d**k. I like the guy, but sometimes I hate him, too.

      Well perhaps it would be better if Freeza did got killed there but perhaps Cooler could still come to Earth like in the movie. I had once thought of Freeza gaining a fifth form like Cooler's but also making a new technique that gives a cold aura around him that can freeze Ki that I called Arctic Aura. The only downside is he can't use Ki either when its on. But the upside is when used in his fifth the range of it increases and other beings who are not a Frost Demon have trouble breathing inside the cold energy field that has a temperature below zero.

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    • But in this scenario, since Frieza is dead, only King Cold comes to Earth.

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    • Centurion of Books wrote: But in this scenario, since Frieza is dead, only King Cold comes to Earth.

      In your hypothetical scenario yes. But I thought of for Dragon Ball AT Cooler would be the one on Namek but survives and be in critical condition. Cooler turns into his fifth form for the first time when Freeza mocks him. King Cold goes to Earth alone while Cooler stays to control his new form and Freeza is trying to get that form as well not wanting hit brother to be stronger then him. Also I had thought of making a King Cold's wife/Freeza's mother character to be with King Cold on Earth but I am not sure if I am gonna use that idea. Then Freeza and Cooler who learned his fifth

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    • I'm with Venithil and Dimension. I never found anything redeeming about Nappa or any desire to see him again. He murdered all of the Z-fighters in cold blood, including a 4 year old, and treated the thing like a twisted game.

      The only thing going for Raditz is he has some plot potential as Goku's brother.

      Vegeta was only allowed to stay because he had an interesting personality. Redeeming him was to justify why he was allowed to stay that long, not because it was realistic.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I'm with Venithil and Dimension. I never found anything redeeming about Nappa or any desire to see him again. He murdered all of the Z-fighters in cold blood, including a 4 year old, and treated the thing like a twisted game.

      1.He was an old fart (at least in the anime version), if they can't beat an old man they deserved to die!

      2.Gohan was 5, an year had passed

      "Vegeta was only allowed to stay because he had an interesting personality" - Sooo being a copy of hitler makes an interesting personality?

      I agreed that Nappa should also change, but NOT only him, it pisses me off that most fanmade games has Nappa a playable portogatist (sp?) (see DBZ: Death of a God series) but not Raditz!

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    • I've decided to re-write the Dragon Ball story and title it "Dragon Ball ReTold". Right now I'm thinking about the "outline" of the story, about the main events that should occur. Can't tell you much right now but I'm quite sure these are gonna be the arcs:

      0. Garlic Junior Saga

      1. Saiyan Saga

      2. Namek Saga

      3. Turles Saga

      4. Cooler Saga

      5. Cell & Broly Saga

      6. Bojack/Android 13 Saga

      7. Buu/Fusion Saga

      9. Hirudegarn Saga

      9. Black Star Saga

      10. Baby Saga

      11. Super 17 Saga

      12. Shadow Dragon Saga

      13. Destruction Saga

      14. Resurrection Saga

      15. Multiverse Saga

      16. Potafeu Saga

      17. Evil Goku Saga

      18. Makaioshin Saga


      If I ever get to write it the way I want it then the Z fighters would be happy if more Saiyans stuck around.

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    • It seems everyone is trying to redeem all saiyans.That at least explains why every other z warrior is weak.All I can hope is to picollo to become relevent since he is fan favourite.

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote: I've decided to re-write the Dragon Ball story and title it "Dragon Ball ReTold". Right now I'm thinking about the "outline" of the story, about the main events that should occur. Can't tell you much right now but I'm quite sure these are gonna be the arcs:

      0. Garlic Junior Saga

      1. Saiyan Saga

      2. Namek Saga

      3. Turles Saga

      4. Cooler Saga

      5. Cell & Broly Saga

      6. Bojack/Android 13 Saga

      7. Buu/Fusion Saga

      9. Hirudegarn Saga

      9. Black Star Saga

      10. Baby Saga

      11. Super 17 Saga

      12. Shadow Dragon Saga

      13. Destruction Saga

      14. Resurrection Saga

      15. Multiverse Saga

      16. Potafeu Saga

      17. Evil Goku Saga

      18. Makaioshin Saga


      If I ever get to write it the way I want it then the Z fighters would be happy if more Saiyans stuck around.

      But wait GT takes place long after the time period that Super is taking place. Also I also thought of having different versions of the movie events during the couple years or whatever of training for the Androids. But they would be more like mini sagas. Originally I had thought of the Garlic Jr. thing being done over with quickly with Raditz coming in and killing Garlic Jr. and his minions before he had the chance to wish for immortality.

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    • But wait GT takes place long after the time period that Super is taking place. Also I also thought of having different versions of the movie events during the couple years or whatever of training for the Androids. But they would be more like mini sagas. Originally I had thought of the Garlic Jr. thing being done over with quickly with Raditz coming in and killing Garlic Jr. and his minions before he had the chance to wish for immortality.

      Yeah, well I'm planning some changes. 

      Super events happen after GT in my story and I'm also not gonna introduce the notion of "god ki" until the 19th of 20th arc, if I ever write that much.

      Also some movies might actually become mini-sagas (though full sagas are preferable) depending on how much I succeed in developing them. The Garlic Saga will allow me to keep some aspects in the story, which would be left out otherwise.

      It seems everyone is trying to redeem all saiyans.That at least explains why every other z warrior is weak.All I can hope is to picollo to become relevent since he is fan favourite.

      Yeah, well... I'm guilty as charged. :D

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote:

      But wait GT takes place long after the time period that Super is taking place. Also I also thought of having different versions of the movie events during the couple years or whatever of training for the Androids. But they would be more like mini sagas. Originally I had thought of the Garlic Jr. thing being done over with quickly with Raditz coming in and killing Garlic Jr. and his minions before he had the chance to wish for immortality.

      Yeah, well I'm planning some changes. 

      Super events happen after GT in my story and I'm also not gonna introduce the notion of "god ki" until the 19th of 20th arc, if I ever write that much.

      Also some movies might actually become mini-sagas (though full sagas are preferable) depending on how much I succeed in developing them. The Garlic Saga will allow me to keep some aspects in the story, which would be left out otherwise.

      It seems everyone is trying to redeem all saiyans.That at least explains why every other z warrior is weak.All I can hope is to picollo to become relevent since he is fan favourite.

      Yeah, well... I'm guilty as charged. :D

      Well why combine Broly and Cell sagas?

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    • I want someone to cause havoc during the Cell arc. It always seemed a bit too "settle" for me.

      CELL: Goku, I can hardly wait to fight you and respectfully kill you.

      GOKU: Sure, I can hardly wait to fight you, too. You seem strong.


      VEGETA: THE HELL IS GOING ON???!!???!


      Broly will spice things up a bit. ^_^

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    • So Broly versus Cell?

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    • Broly doesn't pick sides. He attacks everything and everyone.

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote: Broly doesn't pick sides. He attacks everything and everyone.

      So Cell has to fight him WITH the Z Fighters?

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    • Yeah, well, it's not like they're gonna team up to defeat Broly or anything. It's just the androids, Cell, the Z fighters - they will all be possible targets. So it's pretty much gonna be a 4-team fight (Broly, Cell, the androids and the Z warriors), with Broly being powerful enough to be on his own.

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote: Yeah, well, it's not like they're gonna team up to defeat Broly or anything. It's just the androids, Cell, the Z fighters - they will all be possible targets. So it's pretty much gonna be a 4-team fight (Broly, Cell, the androids and the Z warriors), with Broly being powerful enough to be on his own.

      Well damn but wait aren't the Androids will inside Cell?

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    • They'll end up there eventually but the Cell saga starts, well, with Cell being imperfect.

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    • Lich Coldheart wrote: They'll end up there eventually but the Cell saga starts, well, with Cell being imperfect.

      Oh I see so he's just wreaking havoc across Earth?

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