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  • As SBG Vegeta beat SSJ3 Gotenks to pulp, what is the multiplier for Saiyan Beyond God in Super anime? 

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    • There is no official multiplier for any of the transformations/states introduced in DBS. 

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    • Well there is no multiplier in GT either, yet people make up base Goku is 4000x

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    • Joseph619 wrote:
      Well there is no multiplier in GT either, yet people make up base Goku is 4000x

      It's stated In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x Super Saiyan 3 in power.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      Joseph619 wrote:
      Well there is no multiplier in GT either, yet people make up base Goku is 4000x
      It's stated In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x Super Saiyan 3 in power.

      So we're using video games for evidence now.

      It's official, Videl is more powerful than Whis.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      Joseph619 wrote:
      Well there is no multiplier in GT either, yet people make up base Goku is 4000x
      It's stated In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x Super Saiyan 3 in power.

      You're using video games as source of anime? Mr Satan can beat Zeno in video games

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    • SJoseph619 wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:
      Joseph619 wrote:
      Well there is no multiplier in GT either, yet people make up base Goku is 4000x
      It's stated In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x Super Saiyan 3 in power.
      You're using video games as source of anime? Mr Satan can beat Zeno in video games

      You're confusing what is stated in video games with what happens in video games. Like with the whole golden frieza and broly fiasco that happened a while back. By people who own the franchise, it's their ip they can do whatever they want with it.

      Btw death battle used the 4000 times increase in power for goku in his first fight against superman.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      SJoseph619 wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:
      Joseph619 wrote:
      Well there is no multiplier in GT either, yet people make up base Goku is 4000x
      It's stated In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4 is 10x Super Saiyan 3 in power.
      You're using video games as source of anime? Mr Satan can beat Zeno in video games
      You're confusing what is stated in video games with what happens in video games. Like with the whole golden frieza and broly fiasco that happened a while back.

      By people who own the franchise, it's their ip they can do whatever they want with it.

      Btw death battle used the 4000 times increase in power for goku in his first fight against superman.

      Stated in video games means little with regards to the anime/manga.

      Death Battle is not an official source for anything.

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    • Also, here's the actual number said by this very wikia.

      In Dragon Ball Z: Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha, Super Saiyan 4's power is 10x that of a Super Saiyan.

      So it's a boost of 500, not 4000, and if you claim that the Dub says otherwise you're wrong on the sheer fact that the Dub isn't the original sub, which has the most trustworthy information due to no translation errors or stuff like that.

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    • Like i said they do what they want their ip. also neffarious just edited that in since i pasted it here.

      I should also mention that ssj4 being a only 1.25 times stronger transformation then 3 makes no sense for goku to defeat baby vegeta. 

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    • Wait a minute, I didn't realize Bandai owned Dragon Ball.....

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    • Anyways, back on topic.

      The multiplier for Beyond Saiyan God would be roughly.....

      25,600,000 times the original base form of the user..... actually it would probably be more than that because again the majority of this calculation is based on Super Buu destroying Gohan being a .5% of Freeza as he lost to the space tyrants First Form, and we don't know how much stronger God Goku and Vegeta got after training with Whis.

      Somewhere around twenty-five million times at the very least.

      So Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta is most likely around eight hundred times stronger than SS3 Gotenks.

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    • you learn something new every day. Making the plot of xenoverse etc.

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    • maybe one day we'll learn to understand sarcasm

      I'll just point out that Future Trunks from Super obviously didn't go on the Time Patrol and leave it at that.

      And how the plots of the games and stuff stated in them is never referenced in the actual show.

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    • So what. 

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    • So Future Trunks, according to the source material, never became a Time Patroller.

      Which would mean that Xenoverse didn't happen because it stated the Video Game Only Character Chrona appeared and told Trunks he messed up and had to work his butt off to pay for his sins of Time Travel.

      He never had that Super Saiyan Rage form in the games, while the Source Material Future Trunks did.

      I hope I don't have to explain this further.

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    • Kaestal wrote:
      So Future Trunks, according to the source material, never became a Time Patroller.

      Which would mean that Xenoverse didn't happen because it stated the Video Game Only Character Chrona appeared and told Trunks he messed up and had to work his butt off to pay for his sins of Time Travel.

      He never had that Super Saiyan Rage form in the games, while the Source Material Future Trunks did.

      I hope I don't have to explain this further.

      huh. One aspect of the video games that makes it into the manga and anime, is the law of time travel. it's forbidden.

      Also it doesn't matter anyway both the video games and the manga and anime are part of the same franchise over all. The owners i repeat OWNERS. that means people with the rights to them that can take you to court if you infringe on them, can shape either in any way they want.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      Kaestal wrote:
      So Future Trunks, according to the source material, never became a Time Patroller.

      Which would mean that Xenoverse didn't happen because it stated the Video Game Only Character Chrona appeared and told Trunks he messed up and had to work his butt off to pay for his sins of Time Travel.

      He never had that Super Saiyan Rage form in the games, while the Source Material Future Trunks did.

      I hope I don't have to explain this further.

      huh. One aspect of the video games that makes it into the manga and anime, is the law of time travel. it's forbidden.

      Also it doesn't matter anyway both the video games and the manga and anime are part of the same franchise over all. The owners i repeat OWNERS. that means people with the rights to them that can take you to court if you infringe on them, can shape either in any way they want.

      Which includes Shueisha and Akira Toriyama.

      Not Bandai-Namco.

      There's a reason they're called "Video-Game Only Characters"

      It's because they are only present in the games, which don't share continuity with the manga or anime (Line from Z to Super and the separate line that goes from Z to GT) if they go literally one step out of bounds.

      Chrona, Towa, Mira, Demigra, and Toki-Toki all fall under this category.

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    • Kaestal wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:
      Kaestal wrote:
      So Future Trunks, according to the source material, never became a Time Patroller.

      Which would mean that Xenoverse didn't happen because it stated the Video Game Only Character Chrona appeared and told Trunks he messed up and had to work his butt off to pay for his sins of Time Travel.

      He never had that Super Saiyan Rage form in the games, while the Source Material Future Trunks did.

      I hope I don't have to explain this further.

      huh. One aspect of the video games that makes it into the manga and anime, is the law of time travel. it's forbidden.

      Also it doesn't matter anyway both the video games and the manga and anime are part of the same franchise over all. The owners i repeat OWNERS. that means people with the rights to them that can take you to court if you infringe on them, can shape either in any way they want.

      Which includes Shueisha and Akira Toriyama.

      Not Bandai-Namco.

      There's a reason they're called "Video-Game Only Characters"

      It's because they are only present in the games, which don't share continuity with the manga or anime (Line from Z to Super and the separate line that goes from Z to GT) if they go literally one step out of bounds.

      Chrona, Towa, Mira, Demigra, and Toki-Toki all fall under this category.

      It includes bandai. they have the right to this stuff you could still be sued by them as well over this. fine then ignore that it's part of the same franchise regardless if they are from different sets of media.

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    • Sued by them over what?

      Saying their games aren't a good official source of power levels or multipliers?

      Good luck with that.

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    • hashtag infringe.

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    • Again, good luck with that.

      Anyways, good to see you're still the same as ever Aussieboy.

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    • you too.

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    • So there's no multiplier for GT and we can usee dokkan battle for reference? lol nice

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    • Joseph619 wrote:
      So there's no multiplier for GT and we can usee dokkan battle for reference? lol nice

      Technically there still is. If you're unwilling to use video games to determine something that's your choice.

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    • Hey.

      These are the mutlipliers.

      This result is bassed on the following sources.

      • gt perfect files
      • super exciting guide
      • movie(s)/manga/anime statements and events.
      • author(s) statements.

      Here's how i got to this conclusion:

      • KK = Kaioken
      • (B) = Base Form
      • BP = Battle Power
      • SBG = Saiyan Beyond God

      Confirmed Power Levels

      • Goku (B)          (DBZ)
      • Goku ssj          (DBZ)
      • Gogeta ssj       (DBZ Movie 12)

      Multipliers

      • Kaioken×10     ×          10(confirmed)
      • Ssj                    ×          50(confirmed)
      • Ssj2                  ×        100(confirmed)
      • Ssj3                  ×        400(confirmed)


      • SBG                   ×     60(calculated)
      • Ssg                   ×     3,000(calculated)
      • Ssb                   ×   30,000(calculated)
      • SsbKK×10       × 300,000(calculated)


      • Ssj4                  × 500,000(calculated)

      Fusion

      • Portara Earing's :X's BP × Y's BP (confirmed)
      • Fusion Dance     :8.33333333333×2×BP (calculated)

      Guide Lines

      • Ssj4 = Super Vegeto (DBZ)      (confirmed)
      • S.B.G "ssg ÷ ssj"      (DBS)  (calculated)
      • Ssb = 10 × ssg                 (confirmed)
      • Whiz 50% > Beerus               (confirmed)
      • GokuGT(B) = 350 x GokuZ(B) (calculated)

      Result :

      DRAGON BALL Z

      • Goku (B)                                          3,000,000
      • Goku ssj                                      150,000,000
      • Goku ssj2                                   300,000,000
      • Goku ssj3                                1,200,000,000


      • Vegeta (B)                                        3,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj                                  150,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj2                                300,000,000


      • Vegeto (B)                        9,000,000,000,000
      • Vegeto ssj                   450,000,000,000,000


      • Gogeta ssj                               2,500,000,000

      DRAGON BALL SUPER

      Battle of Gods

      • Goku (B)                                        3,000,000
      • Goku ssj                                      150,000,000
      • Goku ssj2                                    300,000,000
      • Goku ssj3 (8%)                        1,200,000,000
      • Goku ssjg (60%)                     9,000,000,000


      • Vegeta (B)                                       3,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj                                  150,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj2                                 300,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj2 angry (9%)        1,350,000,000


      • Beerus (10%)                           1,500,000,000
      • Beerus (80%)                        12,000,000,000
      • Beerus (100%)                      15,000,000,000
      • Whiz                                        22,500,000,000

      Post Battle of Gods (aka S.B.G)

      • Goku (B)                                      180,000,000
      • Goku ssj                                   9,000,000,000
      • Goku ssj2                              18,000,000,000
      • Goku ssj3                               72,000,000,000
      • Goku ssjg                            540,000,000,000
      • Goku ssjb                         5,400,000,000,000
      • Goku ssjbKKx10           54,000,000,000,000


      • Vegeta (B)                                   180,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj                                9,000,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj2                            18,000,000,000
      • vegeta ssjb                       5,400,000,000,000


      • Beerus                            54,000,000,000,000
      • Whiz                                81,000,000,000,000


      • Vegeto (B)              32,400,000,000,000,000
      • Vegeto ssjb 972,000,000,000,000,000,000

      DRAGON BALL GT

      • Goku (B)                                     900,000,000
      • Goku ssj                                45,000,000,000
      • Goku ssj2                               90,000,000,000
      • Goku ssj3                            360,000,000,000
      • Goku ssj4                     450,000,000,000,000


      • Vegeta (B)                                   900,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj                              45,000,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj2                             90,000,000,000
      • Vegeta ssj4                  450,000,000,000,000


      • Gogeta ssj4              7,500,000,000,000,000


      THIS IS NOT CONFIRMED!(this is math)

      however i strongly believe its some where around these numbers(since it follows all valid sources).

      And this is about the MULTIPLIERS NOT THE BATTLE POWERS!.

      I hope this answered your question :D </div>

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    • In short

      • sbg = (60 × base)
      • ssg = (7.5 x ssj3)
      • ssb = (10 x ssg (confirmed manga chapter 13)
      • ssj4 = (50,000 x oozaru / "or" (1,000 golden(ssj) oozaru)


      Also wanted to note that ssj4 mutliplier isnt quite acurate since i took the difference between goku gt base power(beginning gt)and super vegeto(dbz) as mutliplier.


      Wich isnt acurate since goku gt increased his base power while the show(gt) went on.

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    • Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

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    • Solember wrote: Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      This wasn't about the power levels as i already made clear in my comment.

      if u need to know C u have to use A and B(thats just the basic prinsable of math since u cant get C whit out A and B). Thats why i had to use some sort of power level system.

      Ssg and ssb are clearly multipliers(if not,see below).

      Goku in the manga still can transform into ssg.if they arnt multipliers then ssg goku (post bog) would be weaker then ssj2(post bog)and just slightly stronger then ssj(post bog)

      Here some samples.

      This would be ssg additional power boost in the scale i gave.

      • 8,997,000,000

      And this is gokus new base after absorbing a amount of ssg.

      • 180,000,000

      Now here the problem when ssg/ssb arnt multipliers.

      • 180,000,000 x (ssj) = 9,000,000,000
      • 180,000,000 + (ssg) = 9,177,000,000
      • 180,000,000 x (ssj2) = 18,000,000,000
      • 180,000,000 x (ssj3) = 72,000,000,000
      • 180,000,000 + (ssb) = 91,770,000,000

      See the paradox?

      Ssb is also weaker then ssj3 since they got alot stronger(not in my scale since it wasnt about the powerlevels but about the multipliers)

      So yea ssb and ssg are clearly mutlipliers

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    • It's very hard to figure out multipliers for the God forms because they rarely used numbers then. SBG especially difficult because it's not clear how much weaker it is then SSG/SSB.

      Based on statements in BoG, one can roughly guess that SSG is at least a 7x multiplier of SSJ3 (<5-10% Beerus to ~70% Beerus), quite possibly more though considering Beerus was very unclear.

      In the Super manga they also gave the statement that SSG >/= 10% SSB. So full power SSB about 10x SSG.

      That'd make SSB at least 70x SSJ3, and 3500x SSJ.


      In terms of multipliers alone, SSG and SSJ4 are nearly the same. Maybe slightly lower or higher depending on how much Beerus used against SSJ3 Goku.

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    • Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC99riGj-vNiE4sGr04YPGw

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    • @DBZ Macky, he means powerlevels (as in the numbers from scouters) aren't really relevant after Frieza. Power scaling on the other hand still applies at times, but putting an actual number on a person is very hard to do.

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    • DBZ Macky wrote:

      Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCC99riGj-vNiE4sGr04YPGw

      I have a hard time understanding your view on super saiyan.

      Ssj is confirmed to be a 50 x multiplier,so how can it be 25,000? Same goose for ssj1 being higher then ssj3 wich is confirmed to be 6x ssj.

      Vegeta ssb was 10% of ssg goku,NOT ssj goku

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    • Stryzzar wrote: It's very hard to figure out multipliers for the God forms because they rarely used numbers then. SBG especially difficult because it's not clear how much weaker it is then SSG/SSB.


      That'd make SSB at least 70x SSJ3, and 3500x SSJ.


      In terms of multipliers alone, SSG and SSJ4 are nearly the same. Maybe slightly lower or higher depending on how much Beerus used against SSJ3 Goku.

      SBG is not so difficult.goku turned back to ssj and he dint lose any power.so there for:

      • sbg = (3,000 ÷ 50)60 x

      U miss calculated it.

      • 70 x 400 = 28,000
      • 3500 x 50 = 175,000

      It should be: ssb = 560 x ssj and 70 x ssj3

      XD not this again.ssj4 is stronger then ssg and ssb even stronger then ssbkkx10 in powerscaling.And gt comes after the end of dbz and dbs is before the end of dbz.so it wouldnt make sence that they got weaker in gt.

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    • Zany101
      Zany101 removed this reply because:
      Double
      03:14, March 12, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • I'm not going by base power level, I'm going by multiplier between the forms.

      SSJ3 is 4x SSJ2 and 8x of SSJ. I know SSJ is 50x base. I was comparing SSG with SSJ3. If SSJ3 Goku went up against 10% Beerus (absolute highest) while SSG Goku fought 70% Beerus, then it's 10 x 7 = 70

      I said SBG can't really be calculated because we never got a clear indication of SBG's full power. The only time Goku and Vegeta used it was in RoF, and they quickly abandoned it in favor of SSB when Frieza went Golden. We can only say SBG is weaker than SSB and stronger than SSJ3, but by how much is not clear.

      Zany101 wrote:

      XD not this again.ssj4 is stronger then ssg and ssb even stronger then ssbkkx10 in powerscaling.And gt comes after the end of dbz and dbs is before the end of dbz.so it wouldnt make sence that they got weaker in gt.

      You failed to prove that last time, and you still failed to prove it this time. You kept using speculated fanon multipliers and just plain bias to crunch out some numbers that seem to put SSJ4 above SSG/SSB and Beerus.

      Literally your whole argument was just "GT is later than Super, therefore everything in GT is stronger than Super"

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    • Ooh yea i see what u mean.(but then its still wrong :V)

      I think its pretty clear in regard of sbg as what i mentioned before.(sbg 60x)

      Actualy 3 arguments.

      • ssj4 = super vegeto(wich is obiously far superior then ssb)
      • gt is after dbs(same time line as it currently stands)thats solid
      • whit powerscaling(even if u give dbs the favor)db gt will still be stronger(go ahead put ssj3 at 1 % of beerus and see what i mean:D)

      U have a head cannon bro ^^.

      And besides why do u want to see dbs stronger then gt?its essentially the same franchise and it doesnt hurt the franchise when dbs is weaker then gt,if anything it expends the franchise whit more powerfull characters.

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    • ssj4 = super vegeto(wich is obiously far superior then ssb)

      Complete speculation

      gt is after dbs(same time line as it currently stands)thats solid

      doesn't prove anything

      whit powerscaling(even if u give dbs the favor)db gt will still be stronger(go ahead put ssj3 at 1 % of beerus and see what i mean:D)

      pretty much the exact same thing you said above on "GT is later than Super therefore stronger.


      I honestly don't care which one is stronger. It's just the evidence presented seem to lean towards Super having stronger forms and characters. If you say "I'm going to put all of Goku's GT training on top of his Super" then of course GT will be stronger, but we don't even have confirmation that Super leads into GT at this stage. As far as we know it could branch off.

      Before 0551E80Y comes in and lashes at me for calling GT noncanon. No, I'm not saying GT is non-canon, I'm just saying it's not right to add GT's power on top of Super when comparing the two.

      Again, I want or care if Super is stronger or weaker than GT. But saying stuff like Beerus is weaker than Baby is just BS.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      ssj4 = super vegeto(wich is obiously far superior then ssb)

      Complete speculation

      gt is after dbs(same time line as it currently stands)thats solid

      doesn't prove anything

      whit powerscaling(even if u give dbs the favor)db gt will still be stronger(go ahead put ssj3 at 1 % of beerus and see what i mean:D)

      pretty much the exact same thing you said above on "GT is later than Super therefore stronger.


      I honestly don't care which one is stronger. It's just the evidence presented seem to lean towards Super having stronger forms and characters. If you say "I'm going to put all of Goku's GT training on top of his Super" then of course GT will be stronger, but we don't even have confirmation that Super leads into GT at this stage. As far as we know it could branch off.

      Before 0551E80Y comes in and lashes at me for calling GT noncanon. No, I'm not saying GT is non-canon, I'm just saying it's not right to add GT's power on top of Super when comparing the two.

      Again, I want or care if Super is stronger or weaker than GT. But saying stuff like Beerus is weaker than Baby is just BS.

      Gt is a direct follow up of dbz(it has always been like that) And dbs is between end buu saga and the end of z(thats still true)so ofc all that they achieve in dbs will be added onto dbgt(since gt follows up).

      And what u said about "we dont know dbs will branche off"yea thats true.but lets get real here'i dont think that will hapen(nether should u) toei has no reason to so.if they want to expand db they will add it in the gap between end dbz and start gt(wich is 10/5 years gap)

      Thats some solid evidence dont u think?(u probaly don't since u have this huge head canon)

      Anyways believe what u want if u think 1+1=3 then what ever floats your boat.lets get back to the topic on hand

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    • It was a sequel that so many of the fandom thought was trash and chose to ignore, with even some of the cast members joining the hate for it.

      Why would they branch it off? Well why do they keep adding more and more inconsistencies between Super and GT rather than fixing up the plot holes? (I'm not talking to you 0551E80Y, I don't need your long list of how all the Super inconsistencies can be fixed up).

      You act like you're the center of all common sense and I'm a lunatic. Yet so many people responded to you on that other thread on why you were wrong and you never replied back. You want to call me the crazy person who thinks "1+1=3" then I think you owe all of them a reply first.

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    • DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: garbage link garbage link garbage link .com

      I know plenty about DBS power levels. No need to plug your channel here. 

      As for Roshi VS Gohan... yeah, I think that Toriyama would not hesitate to defeat Gohan with Roshi. I would not put it past him for a second if it was intended to drive a story. Power levels do not matter anymore. The guiding principle of Dragonball since the Frieza arc has been that if one relies on Power Levels, they miss the forest for the trees. 

      Furthermore, Toriyama has stated, "As the original author, I can mess with what has already been established."

      He has also mentioned that he never intended for power levels to be as signifigant as they have become. So I will say it again... power levels do not matter. It is now more or less how efficient a person is at controlling their Ki that has taken dominance. Look at what SSB is in essence. It is taking that outrageous energy and taking control of it in am ore efficient way. Consider two people with guns. Just because one person has a more powerful gun does not mean that they will win every confrontation. The person who lines up the shot and utilizes skill will win more frequently.

      This is clearly the direction Dragonball has moved in.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: It was a sequel that so many of the fandom thought was trash and chose to ignore, with even some of the cast members joining the hate for it.

      Why would they branch it off? Well why do they keep adding more and more inconsistencies between Super and GT rather than fixing up the plot holes? (I'm not talking to you 0551E80Y, I don't need your long list of how all the Super inconsistencies can be fixed up).

      You act like you're the center of all common sense and I'm a lunatic. Yet so many people responded to you on that other thread on why you were wrong and you never replied back. You want to call me the crazy person who thinks "1+1=3" then I think you owe all of them a reply first.

      Eum dbs has just as many(if not more) inconsistencys whit dbz as it does whit dbgt(also has plenty whit it self beerus?).

      Fans dont decide what happens whit a,show author's do.it doesnt maher what peaple feel they just have to suck it up(mind u there are also plenty peaple that heavily disagree whit the exsistance of dbs)

      I always replied to them infact i was the one that last posted.and yes some i ignored because they say something that already had been debunked so there was no need for me to.repeat my self(when I already did servial times)

      I dont think your a lunatic.however your reasoning is wel wierd(lets put it like that)

      Anyways tell.me why ssg/ssb are superior to ssj4 and give me some solid prove whit it.(i cant fund anything that leads to that conclusion)

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    • For the tards here. SSJ3 is 400x base power.. add the Ozaru state and it is 10x SSJ3.. what is that?? 4000. How is that hard to put together? btw XenoVerse and XenoVerse 2 treat SS4 as if it is stronger than SSG. One of the official guides or interviews.. can't remember which questions if SS4 is stronger than SSG. So I think it is safe to assume that SS4 is stronger than SSG even if only a bit.

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    • There's a difference between Toriyama's bad memory causing him to leave stuff out and very large intentional changes to contrast GT. Super has actually gone to really great lengths to do callbacks to original Dragon Ball and Z, where GT failed to do so.

      Orly? Observe the power of fanboyism. Fan favorite Future Trunks with his very own saga. Goku gets an Evil Twin, something which you'd only find in fanfictions prior to Super. Not one, but two new Super Saiyan forms, to appease the "give us more Super Saiyans form" fanboys. Everybody's favorite fusion, Vegito, is back (even though they ruined him with the time limit thing). If there's anyone who's susceptible to fanboyism it's Toriyama.

      Oh okay. I haven't checked the thread for a while.

      If you're going to get GT SSJ4 Goku to fight Super SSG Goku, then yes GT Goku would probably take this. But that doesn't mean the form itself is weaker. When comparing the huge power boost from SSJ3 for both SSG and SSJ4, there's a much more evident increase for SSG. We had Goku using both SSJ3 against Beerus and Baby. Beerus was stomping him with a finger, while Baby had to actually block his punches. Along with the fact GT Goku's base was higher, that should indicate Beerus was stronger than Baby. When Goku went SSG he was able to match Beerus at 70% (or whatever he was at) and trade blows with him evenly. While SSJ4 allowed him to surpass the weaker Baby.

      Yes, I know GT Goku's base was higher. But comparing the performance of both times Goku used SSJ3, he had a much larger jump in power when he went SSG.

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    • Baby was playing with him and instantly defeated him right after. He never had to dodge punches or anything he just chose to troll Goku. Beerus is definitely stronger than Baby. But before we go any further, Toriyama has retconned the 70% thing, as Beerus and Whis were now stated to be walls that the others will never pass or reach. Meaning that even after all the power they gained from the Future Trunks Saga, and from preparing for the Universal Survival Tournament.. Beerus is still stronger. Therefor your comparison goes moot. GT also takes place in another timeline and since there is no Beerus, god Ki, or whis that means that the split takes place when Beerus is supposed to wake up.. but instead he doesn't wake up. Therefor without Whis's training, or the giant boost from mastering Super Saiyan God, and God Ki. I would say that at best Base Gt Goku is as strong as his Base "vs Golden Frieza" self and that's being generous. GT Goku is not at current Super Goku's level, and that is another of Toriyama's ways of killing off GT from his main continuity. Although he did say he liked the SSJ4 transformation.. so maybe that will debut in Super??

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    • Even so, Baby never displayed the power to flick Goku away with a finger like Beerus did. The 70% thing is like "Beerus at weakest", I'm aware that Beerus keeps lying and lying about his power and shows he's always stronger than he first said. But we don't really have any other numbers to go by at the moment.

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    • Gt is NOT a diffrent time line.its still is after dbz no?wel then stop believing other wise. If anything,dbs would be more likely to be a diffrent time line.

      Yes u might say but kabito kai and the pilaf gang?yes thats a masive plot hole in the franchise(thanks dbs for your excellent research)

      There are also inconsistencies whit dbz.goten and trunks are now younger in dbs!(how in the world does that add up)bulla is older then pan(not in dbs)

      Now lets take a look into gt. Gt neatly follows dbz whit very minal inconsistencies.

      So yea dbs is FAR more likely to be a diffrent time line(but both are still in the same timeline).

      Abcent of a being doesn mean anything.if so,then its now official dbz is NOT a follow up of dragon ball.

      Ugh how come peaple still believe that ssj4 = 10x ssj3? That's not possable.remember baby?the guy who dominates ssj3 goku and he went golden oozaru? If ssj4 is 10x ssj3 then ssj4 cant beat golden oozaru baby(oozaru 10x no?)so please stop believing that.

      Baby is stronger then beerus regardless of ssj4 being stronger or weaker then ssjg(goku gt is 400x stronger then goku dbs)or other words thats a ssj3 that can go ssj3 over it(and baby had no problems whit that)


      Ssg is a about 7x(can differ between 5/9) ssj3.ssj4 cant be 10x ssj3(there for ssj4>ssg)


      Ssj4 is said to be equal to super vegeto(there for ssj4>ssb)since ssb is confirmed to be 10x ssg.

      And no super vegetto cant be weaker then ssb (super vegeto is more then 10x ssg)this is not a asumption! portara is confirmed to be A x B battle power(we are talking about milions of multiplication)

      Why is it that so many peaple fail to understand this?

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    • Saying that Super is in a different timeline is synonymous to saying GT is in a different timeline. Goten and Trunks are not younger in Super than they are in Z they are only drawn the same and from my understanding even before Super there were sources that said Bulla/Bra is younger than Pan.

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    • Excactly.

      So long dbs doesnt retcon the ending of dbz(or goose past gt starting time)there isnt a real reason to believe that gt is a diffrent time line.ofc there are contradictions this dragon ball we are talking about it has a ton of contradictions(nothing new).

      Those where just some examples(there are plenty more).the point is many discard gt for reasons that also aply for dbs,leading to a contradiction.

      • if u discard one for reasons that also exsist in the other u discard both of them.if not,then we are talking about a double standard.
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    • Have you not read my comments? If GT was the same timeline, then where are Beerus and Whis? Where is Super Saiyan Blue? GT was retconned into being in a different timeline. It starts off where Beerus is supposed to wake up, but he doesn't wake up.. then later the last chapter of DB takes place with Goku leaving with Oob.. 5 years later GT begins. In the real timeline Beerus wakes up, Goku and Vegeta gain God ki and Super Saiyan Blue.. then the last DB chapter takes place and Goku and Oob go off to train.. that is the END of the real timeline. Retcons and continuity changes happen and they get explained by being different dimensions.. or different timelines. Be glad Kishi hinted it to be a different timeline instead of ignoring it period.. when Kishi said GT was a different timeline he made it canon. Be happy with that and stop complaining. There is no contradiction for Super as Goku and Vegeta never transformed at all in the Last DB chapter, and Beerus most likely went back to sleep before it began. Therefor Super is main timeline canon, and GT is an alternate timeline canon.

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    • Solember wrote:
      DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: garbage link garbage link garbage link .com

      I know plenty about DBS power levels. No need to plug your channel here. 

      As for Roshi VS Gohan... yeah, I think that Toriyama would not hesitate to defeat Gohan with Roshi. I would not put it past him for a second if it was intended to drive a story. Power levels do not matter anymore. The guiding principle of Dragonball since the Frieza arc has been that if one relies on Power Levels, they miss the forest for the trees. 

      Furthermore, Toriyama has stated, "As the original author, I can mess with what has already been established."

      He has also mentioned that he never intended for power levels to be as signifigant as they have become. So I will say it again... power levels do not matter. It is now more or less how efficient a person is at controlling their Ki that has taken dominance. Look at what SSB is in essence. It is taking that outrageous energy and taking control of it in am ore efficient way. Consider two people with guns. Just because one person has a more powerful gun does not mean that they will win every confrontation. The person who lines up the shot and utilizes skill will win more frequently.

      This is clearly the direction Dragonball has moved in.

      What the hell are you on about? Toriyama never ever said any of that. Are you just making this up, because if not, then I'd like to see your source. Besides, your knowledge of power levels is pretty shit if you honestly believe that Roshi could defeat Gohan.

      First of all, Toriyama never said that power levels do not matter. Tell me a single one-on-one fight in the series where the power level of the victor was lesser than his opponent. You can't, because there is none.

      Of course teamwork and skill are important factors, but power is much, much more important when it comes to Dragon Ball.

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    • End of Z already got retconned with the fact that Goku did visit Bulma during the 5 year gap.

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    • Power, battle experience and strategy matter most. For example if Krillin was strategic enough, he could kill Gohan with Destructo Disk. Piccolo could kill Gohan with Special Beam Canon, Piccolo could seal somebody with Mafuba. Or as was shown in Super recently, poison could take a large role too.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Have you not read my comments? If GT was the same timeline, then where are Beerus and Whis? Where is Super Saiyan Blue? GT was retconned into being in a different timeline. It starts off where Beerus is supposed to wake up, but he doesn't wake up.. then later the last chapter of DB takes place with Goku leaving with Oob.. 5 years later GT begins. In the real timeline Beerus wakes up, Goku and Vegeta gain God ki and Super Saiyan Blue.. then the last DB chapter takes place and Goku and Oob go off to train.. that is the END of the real timeline. Retcons and continuity changes happen and they get explained by being different dimensions.. or different timelines. Be glad Kishi hinted it to be a different timeline instead of ignoring it period.. when Kishi said GT was a different timeline he made it canon. Be happy with that and stop complaining. There is no contradiction for Super as Goku and Vegeta never transformed at all in the Last DB chapter, and Beerus most likely went back to sleep before it began. Therefor Super is main timeline canon, and GT is an alternate timeline canon.

      Where are whiz and beerus?

      • they always say "dont rely on the gods"wel geas what in gt they dont rely on them(that answers your question).and the abcent of a character doesnt mean anything or are we cleverly ignoring all the other characters that are abcent in dbz and in dbs?(where is beerus in dbz?surely he put elder kai in the z sword but was never mentioned or shown)

      Where is ssb?

      • same can be said for ending of dbz.its also very easy to explain,never noticed that goku and vegeta are absorbing the god ki?(thats not for no reason)and it was said that goku and vegeta are going to be perfecting tier ssj and base form.(by the time gt starts they have fully done so)

      Beerus dint wake up

      • fan theory not fact.

      Akira said dbgt is a diffrent time line

      • does akira have 100% right over db?no he doesnt.basically what akira says is meaning less until the other authors agree.(thats just the law)

      Canon?

      • a bilion peaple have debunked the whole db canon notion.there is no canon its also inpossable since dbz has different time lines and universe's wich go against the therm "canon"(fact btw)if u realy want to be nitpicking every one that has rights over db,tier work is by default canon(that includes gt,movies and games)and not for fanfic since they dint have rights.


      I hope that answers your questions.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: End of Z already got retconned with the fact that Goku did visit Bulma during the 5 year gap.

      It wont be retconned.everything so far is leading towards that moment pan is born,bulma is pregnant whit bulla etc etc.dbs will end whit uub and goku in the tournament.

      And u have to ask your self why would they do that?when it only will be causing problems.

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    • There's also the fact that Pan seems younger than Bra in GT, while in Super she was born after Pan. I'd like to see them fix that.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: There's also the fact that Pan seems younger than Bra in GT, while in Super she was born after Pan. I'd like to see them fix that.

      Duh bra is older then pan in both dbz and dbgt.gt isnt the wrong on here its dbs.

      The girl standing next to bulma is bra

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    • You can call Super wrong or call it a retcon. Personal preference.

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    • Before anyone will reply on the dbs vs dbgt subject . take a good look on what i said previously.

      • if u discard one for reasons that also exsist in the other u discard both of them.

      So far u guys came up whit reasons that also aply to dbs.if u cant come up whit a reason that doesn't aply for both of them'dont reply.

      we should keep it on topic as wel since this is about the multiplier for SBG. I gave multipliers wich are more or less canon(since it follows the rules of db)

      • im not saying its official(canon and official are not the same thing)
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    • Well the fact is DBS is the most recent material, so it reflects the writer's current intentions. Whatever decisions they made in the past that can change with time and it reflects in their work.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Well the fact is DBS is the most recent material, so it reflects the writer's current intentions. Whatever decisions they made in the past that can change with time and it reflects in their work.

      Ofc there is a possibility that they retcon it. however it unlikely,they clearly are building up towards that episode.

      However as it currently stands it hasnt been retconned.so gt is still in the same time line.

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    • If you to believe that then it's your right. Time will reveal all.

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    • The only AUTHORS on the Dragon Ball series are Toriyama and Toyotaro(Super) and they both work on Super and Toriyama also works on the anime version. Try again Zany.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: The only other AUTHOR on DB series is Toyotaro and he works with Kishi, and they both work on Super. Try again Zany.

      Toyotarō is the writher of dbs and dbaf "manga's" he has no involvement in db,dbz or dbgt.(so no hes by no means the only author)

      Get your facts straight. "And try again QuakingStar" :)

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    • Zany101
      Zany101 removed this reply because:
      Double
      06:29, March 13, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • My last comment was edited to correct my unknowing mistake. Also.. you don't know what an author is do you? GT was anime only, before Toriyama placed it in an alternate timeline. Also the whole BS reason you made up about not having SSB or god Ki in GT? Yeah it's just that.. BS. SSB is stronger than SS3, God, and 4. It has been confirmed as the ultimate Saiyan transformation. Therefor.. why in the literal fuck would Goku drop it?? the asnwer is he wouldn't. Toyo and Akira simply retconned GT, leaving it in an alternate timeline. If that's hard for you to swallow then that's your problem. Take your childish bullshit and cry somewhere else over this. 

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    • It's obvious that GT was retconned. I mean the give-away factor is the fact that Kibito and Supreme Kai have seperated in Super, but they're still Kibito Kai in GT. Toriyama said that GT is a side-story. That pretty much confirms that it doesn't fit into the regular canon.

      "Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together."

      — Akira Toriyama

      Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/

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    • THANK YOU

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    • QuakingStar wrote: My last comment was edited to correct my unknowing mistake. Also.. you don't know what an author is do you? GT was anime only, before Toriyama placed it in an alternate timeline. Also the whole BS reason you made up about not having SSB or god Ki in GT? Yeah it's just that.. BS. SSB is stronger than SS3, God, and 4. It has been confirmed as the ultimate Saiyan transformation. Therefor.. why in the literal fuck would Goku drop it?? the asnwer is he wouldn't. Toyo and Akira simply retconned GT, leaving it in an alternate timeline. If that's hard for you to swallow then that's your problem. Take your childish bullshit and cry somewhere else over this. 

      Ssj4 is called "the ultimate form"(not ssb)

      • ssb = 10x ssg,ssj4 = super vegeto(u sont have to be genius yo figure out whos stronger)
      • akira has 100% rights?

      Im crying?are u kidding me?

      I come whit facts and whit logic.u on the other hand just makes shit up just because u dont wabt gt to be the superior serie(well srry bro as it currently stands gt>dbs(those are facts)

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    • DBZ Macky wrote: It's obvious that GT was retconned. I mean the give-away factor is the fact that Kibito and Supreme Kai have seperated in Super, but they're still Kibito Kai in GT. Toriyama said that GT is a side-story. That pretty much confirms that it doesn't fit into the regular canon.

      "Dragon Ball GT is a grand side-story of the original Dragon Ball, and it’ll make me happy for us to watch and enjoy it together."

      — Akira Toriyama

      Source: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/

      Gt has not been reconned.

      Akira has no rights over gt,so its not hiss call to make(law )toei in fact could sue him for it. do these sheep fans believe that akira stands above the law?

      Dbz contradicts dbs. Your logic: dbz over writes there fir dbs cant exsist.

      Are u guys NOT sseing that problem?

      • if u discard one for reasons that also exsist in the other u discard both of them.
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    • DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: garbage link garbage link garbage link .com

      I know plenty about DBS power levels. No need to plug your channel here. 

      As for Roshi VS Gohan... yeah, I think that Toriyama would not hesitate to defeat Gohan with Roshi. I would not put it past him for a second if it was intended to drive a story. Power levels do not matter anymore. The guiding principle of Dragonball since the Frieza arc has been that if one relies on Power Levels, they miss the forest for the trees. 

      Furthermore, Toriyama has stated, "As the original author, I can mess with what has already been established."

      He has also mentioned that he never intended for power levels to be as signifigant as they have become. So I will say it again... power levels do not matter. It is now more or less how efficient a person is at controlling their Ki that has taken dominance. Look at what SSB is in essence. It is taking that outrageous energy and taking control of it in am ore efficient way. Consider two people with guns. Just because one person has a more powerful gun does not mean that they will win every confrontation. The person who lines up the shot and utilizes skill will win more frequently.

      This is clearly the direction Dragonball has moved in.

      What the hell are you on about? Toriyama never ever said any of that. Are you just making this up, because if not, then I'd like to see your source. Besides, your knowledge of power levels is pretty shit if you honestly believe that Roshi could defeat Gohan.

      First of all, Toriyama never said that power levels do not matter. Tell me a single one-on-one fight in the series where the power level of the victor was lesser than his opponent. You can't, because there is none.

      Of course teamwork and skill are important factors, but power is much, much more important when it comes to Dragon Ball.

      Goku and Piccolo VS Raditz. Literally Teamwork and Skill beating Power Level. Yajirobe VS Vegeta. 


      Look at Krillin's Destructo Disk VS Nappa. Are you telling me that if Vegeta wasn't there to tell Nappa to move, Krillin wouldn't have destroyed Nappa? Frost defeated Goku and if you argue it was only because of cheating, then I can say Piccolo defeated Frost.

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    • Skills is very inportand no denying that but strength is still superior to it.

      Picollo is depicted as a very skillfull(a strategist if u like) character but he can by no means compete against someone that is stronger then frieza(dbz), this has also been shown in the show,he clearly couldn't compete whit semi perfect cell,all forms of buu and beerus.

      Also krillin's destructo disk is arguably one of the best techniques(skill)however its shown that when there is a hopelessly big difrence in power(strength), power will cancel out skill. Krillin used the destructo disk against perfect cell and the destructo disk had no effect on perfect cell.

      Conclusion strenght>skill.

      I do understand what u mean and this would indeed aply to the real world. But, dragon ball doesn't follow real world principles.

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    • HOW.... HOW are you still not getting this Zany?? I am shocked.... holy shit.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: HOW.... HOW are you still not getting this Zany?? I am shocked.... holy shit.

      What is there to understand.

      • Dbgt follows after dbz.
      • dbs play whit in dbz.

      Its not that difficult to understand(well for remotely inteligent peaple at least)


      Also why are u ignoring all the facts that i presented?

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    • Guy. I promise I am more intelligent to you. I also promise that you don't understand my comments apparently. GT comes after end of Z... as a SIDE STORY.. the same description used for the movies.. which were said to take place in different timelines.. therefore GT takes place in a different timeline. I understand you are kind of slow and childish, but you need to hop off GT's **** and grow up.


      http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/ Wanna know why Toriyama still gets paid for GT's merchandise?? and why he still gets paid for Z and Super? Because he has shared rights and the top call on the series.. they ask HIM if something is ok.. they go to HIM for information and confirmation. He gave them the permission to make GT and he concluded it was a side story... he even had part in designing characters in GT as well as the movies and in fact he even chose the names for said designs, even overrideing the original names the others gave the characters.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Guy. I promise I am more intelligent to you. I also promise that you don't understand my comments apparently. GT comes after end of Z... as a SIDE STORY.. the same description used for the movies.. which were said to take place in different timelines.. therefore GT takes place in a different timeline. I understand you are kind of slow and childish, but you need to hop off GT's **** and grow up.


      http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/dragon-book-gt-toriyama-intro/ Wanna know why Toriyama still gets paid for GT's merchandise?? and why he still gets paid for Z and Super? Because he has shared rights and the top call on the series.. they ask HIM if something is ok.. they go to HIM for information and confirmation. He gave them the permission to make GT and he concluded it was a side story... he even had part in designing characters in GT.

      http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/01/05/yahoo-japan-discusses-dragon-ball-room-initiative-with-section-chief-akio-iyoku/

      That destroys your argument about akira having rights.


      Dude are u realy this stupid?

      • Your quote "GT comes after end of Z... as a SIDE STORY.. "

      I will try to explain this as best as possable.

      • GT COMES AFTER END OF Z
      • DBS PLAYS BEFORE THE END OF Z(basically its a filler)

      Okay lets asume DBGT plays in a diffrent time line. Does it make a diffrence? NO BECAUSE IT'S STILL THE FOLLOW UP OF DBZ AND THERE FOR ALSO THE FOLLOW UP OF DBS(BECAUSE DBS IS WHIT IN DBZ)

      If u want that DBGT doesnt come after DBS u have to put DBS in a diffrent time line so that it's not chained with DBZ allowing u to say beerus never woke up.

      Because as it stand now beerus did wake up and that is chained whit DBZ.there for its also chanined whit DBGT, because DBGT is chained whit the end of DBZ(wich is DBZ)

      Do u understand?

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    • http://db30th.com/into/into_nenpyo.html there is no GT it was retconned in the main timeline by Super, and this OFFICIAL timeline even has anime events added as non canon, with stars next to them to show it. GT is a side story, placed in an alternate timeline. I am seriously shocked at you kid.


      http://dragonballuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_SSSS this has a translation of the timeline.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: http://db30th.com/into/into_nenpyo.html there is no GT it was retconned in the main timeline by Super, and this OFFICIAL timeline even has anime events added as non canon, with stars next to them to show it. GT is a side story, placed in an alternate timeline. I am seriously shocked at you kid.


      http://dragonballuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_SSSS this has a translation of the timeline.

      Notice how no toei animation project(movies and gt) are not shown in the link u provided.

      If u actualy read the link i provided u would know why thats the case

      The abcent of toei animation project in your link is because toei has it's own rights(so they can diside what to do whit the anime/movies)

      The link you provided only show cases what 1 other author thinks the time line is.

      So pleaae seck out the link i provided.

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: http://db30th.com/into/into_nenpyo.html there is no GT it was retconned in the main timeline by Super, and this OFFICIAL timeline even has anime events added as non canon, with stars next to them to show it. GT is a side story, placed in an alternate timeline. I am seriously shocked at you kid.


      http://dragonballuniverse.wikia.com/wiki/Dragon_Ball_SSSS this has a translation of the timeline.

      Notice how no toei animation project(movies and gt) are not shown in the link u provided.

      If u actualy read the link i provided u would know why thats the case

      The abcent of toei animation project in your link is because toei has it's own rights(so they can diside what to do whit the anime/movies)

      The link you provided only show cases what 1 other author thinks the time line is.

      So pleaae seck out the link i provided.

      Zany, the last episode of Z and everything after has been removed from continuity. GT could have been argued as canon until Battle of the Gods was released. Even then, though, it was speculative. There is Toriyama Canon, Manga Canon, Anime Canon, Kai Canon, Movie Canon GT Canon and Super Canon. Then there is TOTAL Canon which includes all things (despite conflicts).

      For all intents and purposes, canon depends on the subject. Right now, the current canon is Super Canon. If you are discussing Super Canon, you must exclude GT, as that continuity can not exist while Super exists.


      Example: Bulla isn't born yet in Super and Pan is, while in the old GT continuity from when Goku fought Uub and throughout all of GT, Bulla was much older than Pan.

      Example: Pilaf and his crew are children in Super Canon, but were aged normally in GT canon.

      Example: The transformations in Super don't exist in GT at all.

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    • Zany loves GT and thinks he can talk GT into being Canon and super into being Non-canon lol.. he thinks Toriyama has no authority on what is the main story here.. LMAO

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Zany loves GT and thinks he can talk GT into being Canon and super into being Non-canon lol.. he thinks Toriyama has no authority on what is the main story here.. LMAO

      Thats not even the case i disliked gt and i also dislike dbs. Dbz is where it at.

      Still havnt read the interview have u?akira has no more rights

      Canon none canon again this whole notion has already been debunked.

      Also i said it doesnt even mather if gt is in the main time line or not.why?

      Gt time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz,dbgt

      Main time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz

      Gt still is the last in the time line.

      So regardless of gt being in the main time line or not it's still the superior series. Or do u want to say that db is stronger then dbz?

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    • Zany101
      Zany101 removed this reply because:
      Fault
      04:27, March 14, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Zany101 wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: Zany loves GT and thinks he can talk GT into being Canon and super into being Non-canon lol.. he thinks Toriyama has no authority on what is the main story here.. LMAO

      Thats not even the case i disliked gt and i also dislike dbs. Dbz is where it at.

      Still havnt read the interview have u?akira has no more rights

      Canon none canon again this whole notion has already been debunked.

      Also i said it doesnt even mather if gt is in the main time line or not.why?

      Gt time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz,dbgt

      Main time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz

      Gt still is the last in the time line.

      So regardless of gt being in the main time line or not it's still the superior series. Or do u want to say that db is stronger then dbz?

      You clearly don't know or understand what retcon is...

      The previous continuity has been retracted. Retracted Continuity or Retroactive Continuity. RETCON.

      The fact that Goku is stronger in Dragonball Super is one of the things that proves that GT doesn't exist anymore in the main continuity. 

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    • Solember wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: Zany loves GT and thinks he can talk GT into being Canon and super into being Non-canon lol.. he thinks Toriyama has no authority on what is the main story here.. LMAO

      Thats not even the case i disliked gt and i also dislike dbs. Dbz is where it at.

      Still havnt read the interview have u?akira has no more rights

      Canon none canon again this whole notion has already been debunked.

      Also i said it doesnt even mather if gt is in the main time line or not.why?

      Gt time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz,dbgt

      Main time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz

      Gt still is the last in the time line.

      So regardless of gt being in the main time line or not it's still the superior series. Or do u want to say that db is stronger then dbz?

      You clearly don't know or understand what retcon is...

      The previous continuity has been retracted. Retracted Continuity or Retroactive Continuity. RETCON.

      The fact that Goku is stronger in Dragonball Super is one of the things that proves that GT doesn't exist anymore in the main continuity. 

      I know what retcon is and i also know the last episode of dbz hasnt been retconned.

      Goku stronger then gt goku? Can u please tell me how that works? when

      • ssj4 = super vegeto
      • ssb = 10x ssg
      • ssg = roughly 7 x ssj3.
      • Portara = Ys battle power x Xs battle power

      Not to mention that dbgt Congress after dbs.

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    • Super Saiyan God Goku is stronger than Super Vegito it was confirmed whent they said that fusion was too weak to fight Beerus.

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      Solember wrote:


      Zany101 wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: Zany loves GT and thinks he can talk GT into being Canon and super into being Non-canon lol.. he thinks Toriyama has no authority on what is the main story here.. LMAO

      Thats not even the case i disliked gt and i also dislike dbs. Dbz is where it at.

      Still havnt read the interview have u?akira has no more rights

      Canon none canon again this whole notion has already been debunked.

      Also i said it doesnt even mather if gt is in the main time line or not.why?

      Gt time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz,dbgt

      Main time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz

      Gt still is the last in the time line.

      So regardless of gt being in the main time line or not it's still the superior series. Or do u want to say that db is stronger then dbz?

      You clearly don't know or understand what retcon is...

      The previous continuity has been retracted. Retracted Continuity or Retroactive Continuity. RETCON.

      The fact that Goku is stronger in Dragonball Super is one of the things that proves that GT doesn't exist anymore in the main continuity. 

      I know what retcon is and i also know the last episode of dbz hasnt been retconned.

      Goku stronger then gt goku? Can u please tell me how that works? when

      • ssj4 = super vegeto
      • ssb = 10x ssg
      • ssg = roughly 7 x ssj3.
      • Portara = Ys battle power x Xs battle power

      Not to mention that dbgt Congress after dbs.

      Bulla is younger than Pan in Super. That equates to the last chapter of Z and all of GT being no longer considerable for the continuity, as she was older than Pan in those instances. Also, read this! 

      http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_kai/topics/

        Loading editor
    • Solember wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      Solember wrote:


      Zany101 wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: Zany loves GT and thinks he can talk GT into being Canon and super into being Non-canon lol.. he thinks Toriyama has no authority on what is the main story here.. LMAO

      Thats not even the case i disliked gt and i also dislike dbs. Dbz is where it at.

      Still havnt read the interview have u?akira has no more rights

      Canon none canon again this whole notion has already been debunked.

      Also i said it doesnt even mather if gt is in the main time line or not.why?

      Gt time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz,dbgt

      Main time line

      • db,dbz,dbs,dbz

      Gt still is the last in the time line.

      So regardless of gt being in the main time line or not it's still the superior series. Or do u want to say that db is stronger then dbz?

      You clearly don't know or understand what retcon is...

      The previous continuity has been retracted. Retracted Continuity or Retroactive Continuity. RETCON.

      The fact that Goku is stronger in Dragonball Super is one of the things that proves that GT doesn't exist anymore in the main continuity. 

      I know what retcon is and i also know the last episode of dbz hasnt been retconned.

      Goku stronger then gt goku? Can u please tell me how that works? when

      • ssj4 = super vegeto
      • ssb = 10x ssg
      • ssg = roughly 7 x ssj3.
      • Portara = Ys battle power x Xs battle power

      Not to mention that dbgt Congress after dbs.

      Bulla is younger than Pan in Super. That equates to the last chapter of Z and all of GT being no longer considerable for the continuity, as she was older than Pan in those instances. Also, read this! 

      http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_kai/topics/

      Trunks and goten should be older in dbs. Does this mean dbs is retconned before it even started?or how about goku and krillin getting damaged by bullets?while in db they can tank bullets.does this also mean dbs is retconned? Etc etc

      These things are in the realm of inconsistencies and do not effect the story or what ever.

      Other wise u might as well trash db the whole franchise since everything will retcon everything.

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    • Trunks and Goten ARE older. Remember that Goku was 12 when DB began. As for Goku and Krillin getting damaged by bullets, both are forced to hold back in both scenarios so as not to obliterate their opponents. If anything the Sorbet Laser incident established, it is that Goku can drop his guard and be hurt by redundant sources.

      What you are doing though is called argument from fallacy. You complained about something unrelated to my statement to make it seem like my statement is false.

      Here is another incident. Goku acknowledges the existance of Uub before the Universal Tournament. In the last episode of Z he is surprised by Uub at the Budokai Tenkaichi.

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    • Solember wrote: Trunks and Goten ARE older. Remember that Goku was 12 when DB began. As for Goku and Krillin getting damaged by bullets, both are forced to hold back in both scenarios so as not to obliterate their opponents. If anything the Sorbet Laser incident established, it is that Goku can drop his guard and be hurt by redundant sources.

      What you are doing though is called argument from fallacy. You complained about something unrelated to my statement to make it seem like my statement is false.

      Here is another incident. Goku acknowledges the existance of Uub before the Universal Tournament. In the last episode of Z he is surprised by Uub at the Budokai Tenkaichi.

      No what im doing is canceling your agrumemts out because they aply to the whole franchise.

      Ooh and here a thing wich u cant excuse why is trunks hair collor not the same as in dbz?yup thats it dbs is now acording to u retconned.

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    • Solember wrote:
      DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: garbage link garbage link garbage link .com

      I know plenty about DBS power levels. No need to plug your channel here. 

      As for Roshi VS Gohan... yeah, I think that Toriyama would not hesitate to defeat Gohan with Roshi. I would not put it past him for a second if it was intended to drive a story. Power levels do not matter anymore. The guiding principle of Dragonball since the Frieza arc has been that if one relies on Power Levels, they miss the forest for the trees. 

      Furthermore, Toriyama has stated, "As the original author, I can mess with what has already been established."

      He has also mentioned that he never intended for power levels to be as signifigant as they have become. So I will say it again... power levels do not matter. It is now more or less how efficient a person is at controlling their Ki that has taken dominance. Look at what SSB is in essence. It is taking that outrageous energy and taking control of it in am ore efficient way. Consider two people with guns. Just because one person has a more powerful gun does not mean that they will win every confrontation. The person who lines up the shot and utilizes skill will win more frequently.

      This is clearly the direction Dragonball has moved in.

      What the hell are you on about? Toriyama never ever said any of that. Are you just making this up, because if not, then I'd like to see your source. Besides, your knowledge of power levels is pretty shit if you honestly believe that Roshi could defeat Gohan.

      First of all, Toriyama never said that power levels do not matter. Tell me a single one-on-one fight in the series where the power level of the victor was lesser than his opponent. You can't, because there is none.

      Of course teamwork and skill are important factors, but power is much, much more important when it comes to Dragon Ball.

      Goku and Piccolo VS Raditz. Literally Teamwork and Skill beating Power Level. Yajirobe VS Vegeta. 


      Look at Krillin's Destructo Disk VS Nappa. Are you telling me that if Vegeta wasn't there to tell Nappa to move, Krillin wouldn't have destroyed Nappa? Frost defeated Goku and if you argue it was only because of cheating, then I can say Piccolo defeated Frost.

      Goku & Piccolo Vs. Raditz is not a one-on-one fight. And they were only able to "win" because of Gohan's interference and using the Special Beam Cannon that increased Piccolo's battle power and surpassed Raditz. So that's a pretty shitty example.

      Yajirobe was able to get one hit on a Vegeta who was battered to bits after being overwhelmed by the Kaioken x3, a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha, a Spirit Bomb and after being crushed by Great Ape Gohan. That doesn't count as a one-on-one fight at all,

      Krillin's destructo disk didn't work, so it doesn't count. Nonetheless, Krillin's power level may be lower than Nappa's, but his Destructo Disk is a special technique that can work on opponents many times stronger than him.

      You answered your own self on that, it was by no means a fair fight. And Piccolo didn't "win" against Frost either. He probably would have, but he didn't. That's the point.

      There, all your examples are null. In a Shonen series like Dragon Ball, power is the most important factor. Technique, skill and teamwork comes later, though it is important aswell.

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      Solember wrote: Trunks and Goten ARE older. Remember that Goku was 12 when DB began. As for Goku and Krillin getting damaged by bullets, both are forced to hold back in both scenarios so as not to obliterate their opponents. If anything the Sorbet Laser incident established, it is that Goku can drop his guard and be hurt by redundant sources.

      What you are doing though is called argument from fallacy. You complained about something unrelated to my statement to make it seem like my statement is false.

      Here is another incident. Goku acknowledges the existance of Uub before the Universal Tournament. In the last episode of Z he is surprised by Uub at the Budokai Tenkaichi.

      No what im doing is canceling your agrumemts out because they aply to the whole franchise.

      Ooh and here a thing wich u cant excuse why is trunks hair collor not the same as in dbz?yup thats it dbs is now acording to u retconned.

      You are so ridiculous... Toriyama always drew Trunks with Blue hair. Toei are the ones who changed it to purple to match Bulma. That is what they do with Kid Trunks still to this day.

      http://i.imgur.com/CYTJPRD.png

      That is a Toriyama image. As we know, Kid Trunks keeps the purple hair. Visual aspects are not story aspects, especially considering that the Manga was the Toriyama Canon, not the Z anime. Now the Super Anime is the Toriyama Canon. It is what Toriyama is working on most directly with. Remember, the Anime needs to be more visually stunning.

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    • He's a special case. I think it's best we ignore Zany.. he's sucking a little too hard on GT's ****

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    • DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      DBZ Macky wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      Can we all agree that power levels don't matter past the Frieza Saga? These are numbers we use to argue, but at the end of the day this is a martial arts manga/anime.

      A skilled opponent can defeat a powerful opponent. We are probably going to see this in the upcoming episodes of Super with Master Roshi, Krillin and Tien.

      Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are not neccesarily linear transformations. They are also not multipliers of base form power, as they utilize God Ki, not the same Ki that we are familiar with from most of Dragon Ball.

      Power Levels are a plot device with very limited usage during the Saiyan and Frieza arcs. After that, it really should have been removed from relevance. Instead, we should be measuring feats. Those numbers no longer matter exclusively.

      As we don't know the "power levels" of any character right now, the power level multiplier should not be considered, at least not regarding numbers.

      So we need to ask ourselves this: have Goku or Vegeta exhibited any feat in their Blue forms that could provide a hint at a multiplier? If not, then we should drop it and just enjoy the show.

      No sir, we cannot. Battle powers were an essential aspect of two major story arcs in the series and have technically been there since the beginnining and also remain even after they were abolished.

      They are just a numerical representation of the power gaps between the characters. Even before they were introduced, we still had statements like King Piccolo defeating Goku with "not even half of my full power" and even after scouters were gone, we still had the Kiri meter.

      Sure, martial arts is the main focus of the series, but I don't think even the skilled Master Roshi could've beaten Gohan from the Saiyan Arc even with the huge skill gap.

      Power levels aren't linear either. They were pretty much proven to be exponential when Vegeta claimed to be able to destroy the planet with a power level of 18,000 while an average human was a 5. Measuring feats and measuring battle powers is completely different.

      We DO have feats that put the "multiplier" of SSB into perspective. Super Saiyan Vegeta in the Manga was able to overcome Goku Black even as a Super Saiyan. who was stronger than SS2 Trunks and SS3 Goku even in Base.

      That would put Vegeta and Goku's improved SS form (Hinted by Toriyama, when he stated that Goku and Vegeta will focus on improving themselves in Base and Super Saiyan) would be approximately at a 25,000x multiplier.

      Because:

      Base Goku/Vegeta= 1

      SS3 Goku= 400

      Goku Black= 500

      SS Goku Black= 25,000

      Improved SS Goku/Vegeta= 25,000+

      Now, we can look at the Hit fight from the Manga. Goku was able to fight better than SSB Vegeta at 10% of his power with just his regular Super Saiyan. So,

      SS Goku/Vegeta = 25,000

      SSB Goku/Vegeta= 250,000

      And there you have it! Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier, at least going by the Manga.

      There is no problem with power levels and "multipliers". Just have patience until we get some power comparison with SSB in the Anime like we did in the Manga.

      If you'd like to know more about DBS power levels, you can always contact me and check out my YouTube channel: garbage link garbage link garbage link .com

      I know plenty about DBS power levels. No need to plug your channel here. 

      As for Roshi VS Gohan... yeah, I think that Toriyama would not hesitate to defeat Gohan with Roshi. I would not put it past him for a second if it was intended to drive a story. Power levels do not matter anymore. The guiding principle of Dragonball since the Frieza arc has been that if one relies on Power Levels, they miss the forest for the trees. 

      Furthermore, Toriyama has stated, "As the original author, I can mess with what has already been established."

      He has also mentioned that he never intended for power levels to be as signifigant as they have become. So I will say it again... power levels do not matter. It is now more or less how efficient a person is at controlling their Ki that has taken dominance. Look at what SSB is in essence. It is taking that outrageous energy and taking control of it in am ore efficient way. Consider two people with guns. Just because one person has a more powerful gun does not mean that they will win every confrontation. The person who lines up the shot and utilizes skill will win more frequently.

      This is clearly the direction Dragonball has moved in.

      What the hell are you on about? Toriyama never ever said any of that. Are you just making this up, because if not, then I'd like to see your source. Besides, your knowledge of power levels is pretty shit if you honestly believe that Roshi could defeat Gohan.

      First of all, Toriyama never said that power levels do not matter. Tell me a single one-on-one fight in the series where the power level of the victor was lesser than his opponent. You can't, because there is none.

      Of course teamwork and skill are important factors, but power is much, much more important when it comes to Dragon Ball.

      Goku and Piccolo VS Raditz. Literally Teamwork and Skill beating Power Level. Yajirobe VS Vegeta. 


      Look at Krillin's Destructo Disk VS Nappa. Are you telling me that if Vegeta wasn't there to tell Nappa to move, Krillin wouldn't have destroyed Nappa? Frost defeated Goku and if you argue it was only because of cheating, then I can say Piccolo defeated Frost.

      Goku & Piccolo Vs. Raditz is not a one-on-one fight. And they were only able to "win" because of Gohan's interference and using the Special Beam Cannon that increased Piccolo's battle power and surpassed Raditz. So that's a pretty shitty example.

      Yajirobe was able to get one hit on a Vegeta who was battered to bits after being overwhelmed by the Kaioken x3, a Kaioken x4 Kamehameha, a Spirit Bomb and after being crushed by Great Ape Gohan. That doesn't count as a one-on-one fight at all,

      Krillin's destructo disk didn't work, so it doesn't count. Nonetheless, Krillin's power level may be lower than Nappa's, but his Destructo Disk is a special technique that can work on opponents many times stronger than him.

      You answered your own self on that, it was by no means a fair fight. And Piccolo didn't "win" against Frost either. He probably would have, but he didn't. That's the point.

      There, all your examples are null. In a Shonen series like Dragon Ball, power is the most important factor. Technique, skill and teamwork comes later, though it is important aswell.

      You can't beat me on this one. I am very much aware that you excluded Frost VS Goku. You either have Frost beating Goku and Piccolo -OR- you acknowledge that both Goku and Piccolo would have beaten Frost.

      And to quote you: "Destructo Disk is a special technique that can work on opponents many times stronger than him."

      When my argument is that techniques and skill can be more important than power level, you really can't dispute that by agreeing with it.

      Teamwork is a skill, by the way. So is Special Beam Cannon. So... Goku+Piccolo were able to strategize to defeat Raditz as a team. They were weaker combined than Raditz by far.

      What about when Roshi defeated Oozaru Goku? He destroyed the moon, which was strategy.

      In Shonen, power levels don't matter exclusively. I will yield on the Yajirobe instance, but not on the rest. There are other instances as well throughout the series. I mean... Fusion Dance is a technique. Potara Fusion is a strategy. Saibaman Self Destruct. The sealing of Demon King Piccolo in the rice cooker. Sorbet shooting Goku with a Lazer. Goku once got beaten by being tickled if memory serves, though that was GT and not Canon (unless you are a GT fangirl). 

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    • Okay lets destroy this debate as wel.

      I will revert back to goten and trunks.

      • Goten and Trunks never age. Trunks is now only 1 year younger than his future self prior to Gohan's death, and there is a very clear difference between the 2
      • The Pilaf gang is surprised that Shenlong is able to grant 3 wishes. However Shenlong has turned them into kids a few years earlier.
      • where is beerus in dbz?he clearly put elder kai in the z sword.
      • beerus order frieza to destroy planet vegeta, wich isn't true frieza destroyed planet vegeta because of fear of the legend of the Super saiyan.
      • bulma is older then goku, yet in dbs its reversed.
      • peaple whit a pure hearth can use the numbus cloud, goku has killed there for not pure anymore.(wich is something that up to interpretation)
      • picollo is a inperfect cell tier and he gets beaten by a dordoria tier.
      • db goku and krillin are bullet prove.(say it has to do whit ki wich isnt true goku and krillin always where of geard when lunch started shooting them)
      • how did gohan get this weak?while after cell sage there is a time skip of 7 years and he dint even become this weak as he is now in dbs.


      These are to name a few(im sure there are plenty more.

      So u want to discard gt because of a inconsistency?very well u by default trow dbs away as wel.

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    • Zany101 wrote:
      Okay lets destroy this debate as wel.

      I will revert back to goten and trunks.

      • Goten and Trunks never age. Trunks is now only 1 year younger than his future self prior to Gohan's death, and there is a very clear difference between the 2
      • The Pilaf gang is surprised that Shenlong is able to grant 3 wishes. However Shenlong has turned them into kids a few years earlier.
      • where is beerus in dbz?he clearly put elder kai in the z sword.
      • beerus order frieza to destroy planet vegeta, wich isn't true frieza destroyed planet vegeta because of fear of the legend of the Super saiyan.
      • bulma is older then goku, yet in dbs its reversed.
      • peaple whit a pure hearth can use the numbus cloud, goku has killed there for not pure anymore.(wich is something that up to interpretation)
      • picollo is a inperfect cell tier and he gets beaten by a dordoria tier.
      • db goku and krillin are bullet prove.(say it has to do whit ki wich isnt true goku and krillin always where of geard when lunch started shooting them)
      • how did gohan get this weak?while after cell sage there is a time skip of 7 years and he dint even become this weak as he is now in dbs.


      These are to name a few(im sure there are plenty more.

      So u want to discard gt because of a inconsistency?very well u by default trow dbs away as wel.

      1. In Dragon Ball, Goku appeared to age suddenly as well. Notice how there is no phase in which he appears as a pre-teen, and then he is suddenly fully grown?

      2. The Pilaf Gang made their wish sometime during the three year android training era, most likely, as we never see them make the wish on screen. This would mean they were returned to infancy by the literal dragon.

      3. Beerus was sleeping throughout Z. Even if he were awake, why would he interfere with what Goku and the others are doing?

      4. Beerus didn't order Frieza to destroy planet Vegeta. This was a dubbing mistake.

      5. Bulma lying about her age is a common occurence in the Japanese versions (and women lying about their age is common in Japanese comics in general).

      6. Goku being impure or pure is speculative, as you said.

      7. Not sure what you are referencing here.

      8. Goku did not learn how to suppress his Ki yet at that point. He learned to suppress his Ki much later.

      9. We don't know Gohan's power, so there really is nothing beyond speculation here. We also don't know that Gohan didn't train at all after the Cell Saga.

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    • Solember wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:
      Okay lets destroy this debate as wel.

      I will revert back to goten and trunks.

      • Goten and Trunks never age. Trunks is now only 1 year younger than his future self prior to Gohan's death, and there is a very clear difference between the 2
      • The Pilaf gang is surprised that Shenlong is able to grant 3 wishes. However Shenlong has turned them into kids a few years earlier.
      • where is beerus in dbz?he clearly put elder kai in the z sword.
      • beerus order frieza to destroy planet vegeta, wich isn't true frieza destroyed planet vegeta because of fear of the legend of the Super saiyan.
      • bulma is older then goku, yet in dbs its reversed.
      • peaple whit a pure hearth can use the numbus cloud, goku has killed there for not pure anymore.(wich is something that up to interpretation)
      • picollo is a inperfect cell tier and he gets beaten by a dordoria tier.
      • db goku and krillin are bullet prove.(say it has to do whit ki wich isnt true goku and krillin always where of geard when lunch started shooting them)
      • how did gohan get this weak?while after cell sage there is a time skip of 7 years and he dint even become this weak as he is now in dbs.


      These are to name a few(im sure there are plenty more.

      So u want to discard gt because of a inconsistency?very well u by default trow dbs away as wel.

      1. In Dragon Ball, Goku appeared to age suddenly as well. Notice how there is no phase in which he appears as a pre-teen, and then he is suddenly fully grown?

      2. The Pilaf Gang made their wish sometime during the three year android training era, most likely, as we never see them make the wish on screen. This would mean they were returned to infancy by the literal dragon.

      3. Beerus was sleeping throughout Z. Even if he were awake, why would he interfere with what Goku and the others are doing?

      4. Beerus didn't order Frieza to destroy planet Vegeta. This was a dubbing mistake.

      5. Bulma lying about her age is a common occurence in the Japanese versions (and women lying about their age is common in Japanese comics in general).

      6. Goku being impure or pure is speculative, as you said.

      7. Not sure what you are referencing here.

      8. Goku did not learn how to suppress his Ki yet at that point. He learned to suppress his Ki much later.

      9. We don't know Gohan's power, so there really is nothing beyond speculation here. We also don't know that Gohan didn't train at all after the Cell Saga.

      1. Goku is goku. We where talking about trunks. Trunks literaly has a futher version of him self(he did grow normal dint he?)

      2. I said they where not aware of the 3 wishes.(wich they should)because they did a wish before.

      3. I said "he sealed elder kai in to the z sword, why wasn't he mentioned?(elder kai even said in dbz a evil guy sealed him up) he did not say a god sealed him up.

      4. Any source that proves your claim?(because all translations of dbs agreeing to agree on this one)

      5. Are u even following dbs? . Her age was mention not as a lie.(it was accidently mentioned)

      6. Yea we cant know this one for sure.

      7. Picollo gets beaten up by togama(togama is as strong as dordoria(or zarbon) picollo should be able to completely destroy him. (Or did picollo get weaker as wel?but how he dint stop training did he?)

      8. Asumption.

      9. Its stated that gohan did not train in the time between cell arc and buu arc. (I agree we don't know exactly how strong gohan is or was)


      These are inconsistencies, u try to come up whit excuses.

      But at the same time u descard gt for having inconsistencies. (Wich also can be excused)

      For eaxmple

      • pilaf gang is old in gt and not in dbs.

      Excuse: ooh they have taken a wish that made them older again.

      Your whole argument about"inconsistencies there for its false" is flawed.

      • if u discard one for reasons that also aply for the other u discard both of them.
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    • The first inconsistency is completely excusable as it is very minor since he is not younger just drawn the same that's just the artist's fault/decision. The second inconsistency might not be an inconsistency but I can't confirm that because I am having a hard time finding what I need to confirm what I am remembering. The third inconsistency isn't an inconsistency Beerus is an evil guy (some would argue against that though), god or not. The fourth "inconsistency" can't be considered an inconsistency since just because Beerus ordered Frieza to do so doesn't mean Frieza didn't destroy Planet Vegeta because of his fear of the prophecy it just means he had an extra reason. The fifth inconsistency is a very important inconsistency that I don't have any reasons for. The sixth "inconsistency", or Goku's possessing or lack of purity, isn't really speculative it just depends on your opinion. The seventh inconsistency is easily explainable, I am not saying it is a minor inconsistency though, power levels are... wait for it... bulls**t! The eighth inconsistency is not an inconsistency GT lacks it does not have an excuse though. Anyways not a single one of these inconsistencies are as major as GT Goku and Vegeta not having Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since this would heavily affect the plot.

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    • 1 - Trunks is a Saiyan and I used Goku as an example to back that Saiyans hit sudden growth spurts and skip the preteen phase.

      2 - There were not 3 wishes during the 3 year Android Training time period.

      3 - Why would the Elder Kai feel it appropriate to talk about Beerus at that time? Goku and Gohan were mortals. We don't know the name of the witch he was fused with either.

      4 - Yes... My source is Dragon Ball Super. Being a fluent Japanese speaker, I watch it in Japanese. Maybe you should go do the same. Beerus says, more or less, "Did Frieza destroy planet Vegeta after all?" Even if he DID tell Frieza to destroy it, that would be a Retcon, though at most. Not like Beerus isn't lazy or anything either. Not out of character to tell someone else to do his job. Regardless, the line does not include "Like I told him to do".

      5 - In Japanese culture, this is a trope. It is a joke that happens in many shows and loses meaning in translation.

      6 - null

      7 - This was AFTER Tagoma trained with Frieza for four months. He was at Dodoria level BEFORE that.

      8 - Goku didn't even learn about Ki as "Ki" until training on the lookout many episodes after being shot by bullets. Doubt he learned to suppress something he didn't know he had.

      9 - null

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    • Women lying about age isn't something unique to Japanese culture I see it all the time outside of anime and manga.

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    • I know, but it is a common trope. As in, a laugh track is not needed, nor is expositional commentary. It is just implied to always question a statement of age. I believe Bulma has been called on this, though I could be wrong.

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    • Your argument is null.

      Regardless of how many excuses u can comenup whit. Its not fixed by the author's wel is it? No it isnt there for it will stay a inconsistency.

      Debate killed.

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    • No, you killed the debate with your incorrect bs.

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    • What died is the discussion of this thread's topic.

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    • There are only two possibilities.


      Either the multiplier is over 9000, or not over 9000. 

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    • Venithil wrote:
      There are only two possibilities.


      Either the multiplier is over 9000, or not over 9000. 

      It could also equal exactly 9000. 

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    • Joseph, I think that it is fair to say that SSJ3 is a 400 Multiplier if one is to trust Kaizenshu.

      From here, it becomes speculative and unclear how to proceed, as God Ki works differently than Mortal Ki.

      I think it is fair to say that SSJG is 50 times stronger than SSJ3, so 20,000 times base.

      Furthermore, we know from what Whis said in the Super Manga when Goku was facing Hit as SSJG that SSJB is about 10 times stronger than that, so I would speculate that a minimum multiplier for SSJB is 200,000 times base.

      This is based on observation and speculation. The fact that Goku and Beerus almost wiped out the universe in Super with Goku at SSJG really makes this hard to comment on, and leads me to encourage you to deviate away from power levels and more towards feats. Going from Galaxy buster to Universe Buster (arguably half of a universe) is a 200 Billion Plus multiplier (100 Billion Plus if halved).


      SUMMARY

      On paper? 200,000 Multiplier.

      Based on Feats? 1 or 2 Trillion at the least.

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    • SSB is about 9 times stronger than SSG, because SSB Vegeta was weakened to 10% of SSB's full power, and SSG was stated to equal that. So SSB is 9 times stronger than SSG. We also know SS4 is 10x SS3 so its 4000 times base power.

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    • Actually SSJ4 is 10x SSJ, not SSJ3. The only source for a SSJ4 multiplier comes Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha. Compared to a SSJ3, SSJ4 is 1.25x

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    • 10 percent is 1/10 of 100%.

      10 times 10 is 100, so Blue is roughly 10 times stronger that SSJG, not 9, but I see why you thought that.

      It is arguable that SSJ4 is simply 500 times stronger than base form. It is the power of a Super Saiyan multiplier plus an Oozaru multiplier with the advantage of the Saiyan being in complete control.

      SSJ is 50 times. Oozaru is 10 times. 50 times 10 is 500.

      As no multiplier is mentioned in any official media, we can't make any real conclusion, but 1.25 times stronger than SSJ3 does sort of feel right. If it was 4000 times base VS 500 times base, than Goku's power would be ridiculous compared to everyone else. Goku would have utterly curb stomped Golden Oozaru Baby (500 times multiplier confirmed) if he were 8 times stronger than him, for example.

      If goku went SSJ3 before becoming Oozaru and then becoming SSJ4, I would agree completely with the 4000 multiplier, as it would make sense.

      Again, this is always going to be fan speculation though, as no multiplier was ever given.

      SUMMARY

      SSJG is 10% of SSJB

      10 x 10% = 100%, so SSJB is 10 times stronger than SSJG

      Oozaru is 10 times Base. SSJ is 50 times base.

      50 x 10 = 500, so SSJ Oozaru is 500 times base.

      SSJ4 is the power of SSJ Oozaru form under the full control of the Saiyan, so SSJ4 could be 500 times base.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Actually SSJ4 is 10x SSJ, not SSJ3. The only source for a SSJ4 multiplier comes Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha. Compared to a SSJ3, SSJ4 is 1.25x

      Using Scouter Battle as a reference sort of hurts the case, but I do feel your multiplier is accurate. I do believe that SSJ4 is not relative to SSJ3 at all though (as in, I believe it is more or less a separate transformational path that could be achieved even if SSJ3 is never touched, so long as SSJ and Oozaru are mastered, such as how Vegeta skipped 3 completely).

      500 times base form is 1.25 times SSJ3, though, so I don't think the game was wrong with that multiplier.

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    • I usually don't, but official sources are so lacking for GT numbers. But SSJ4 is definitely not 10x SSJ3, that's wanking SSJ4 way too high. SSJ2 was 2x SSJ, while SSJ3 was 4x SSJ2, and both were massive boosts in power over their previous forms. There's no way that SSJ4 is that much higher than SSJ3.

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    • I agree.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I usually don't, but official sources are so lacking for GT numbers. But SSJ4 is definitely not 10x SSJ3, that's wanking SSJ4 way too high. SSJ2 was 2x SSJ, while SSJ3 was 4x SSJ2, and both were massive boosts in power over their previous forms. There's no way that SSJ4 is that much higher than SSJ3.

      as a i said earlier ssj4 being only 1.25 times more powerful then 3 wouldn't have stopped baby. Goku became so strong in ssj4 that their roles became completely reversed. even as baby went golden great ape which increased his strength ten fold. there is definitly a ten fold power there but it's not by ssj 1 it's too feeble. 

      also that goku nearly destroying the universe with beerus is an outlier cos goku hasn't replicated the feat since then in super even though he has gotten stronger. and it hasn't been brought up that goku can do it since.

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    • You must also remember that Goku became much smaller but retained the same strength of the Golden Oozaru. Remember when Trunks learned that even a slight increase of musculature decreased the potency of his strength by leaps and bounds, making the smaller form with less power more dangerous?

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    • Solember wrote:
      You must also remember that Goku became much smaller but retained the same strength of the Golden Oozaru. Remember when Trunks learned that even a slight increase of musculature decreased the potency of his strength by leaps and bounds, making the smaller form with less power more dangerous?

      what?

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      Solember wrote:
      You must also remember that Goku became much smaller but retained the same strength of the Golden Oozaru. Remember when Trunks learned that even a slight increase of musculature decreased the potency of his strength by leaps and bounds, making the smaller form with less power more dangerous?
      what?

      What to what part?

      I will rephrase all of it.

      SUMMARY

      SSJ4 is all the strength of Golden Oozaru in a smaller form. GT states this, actually.

      Goku was able to defeat Golden Oozaru Baby so easily because he had the same power multiplier in a smaller form. This subject was mentioned in Z when Trunks was fighting Perfect Cell for the first time. Trunks could power up to Cell's power level, but he was outclassed because he had to become quite large to do so, which made him slower.

      If Goku was 10 times Super Saiyan 3, he would have obliterated Baby in one punch. The 10 times Super Saiyan 3 miscalculation comes from an old videogame that actually had SSJ4 10 times stronger than Super Saiyan 1 (which is a 1.20 multiplier of SSJ3).

      Super Saiyan is the largest multiplier ever used in the series when GT was released, unless you include Kaio Ken x100 in the Lord Slug movie. He always powers up to just where he needs to be to defeat an opponent.

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    • no such thing as kaioken times 100. And goku was going to obliterate baby before baby transformed he wanted baby to suffer and was going to he crippled baby in a couple hits when he was clearly holding back, and took his strongest attack head on without a scratch. a 1.25 increase from ssj3 can't do this. ssj3 was unable to damage baby at all. golden ozaruu is focusing the power and then transforming it increasing the power wage.

      so that video game is wrong. being ten times more powerful then ssj3 is able to pull something like this off.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:
      no such thing as kaioken times 100. And goku was going to obliterate baby before baby transformed he wanted baby to suffer and was going to he crippled baby in a couple hits when he was clearly holding back, and took his strongest attack head on without a scratch. a 1.25 increase from ssj3 can't do this. ssj3 was unable to damage baby at all. golden ozaruu is focusing the power and then transforming it increasing the power wage.

      so that video game is wrong. being ten times more powerful then ssj3 is able to pull something like this off.

      lol I mean, yes, Kaio Ken x 100 does exist. It is specifically mentioned in the pamphlets that came with the Lord Slug movie, and Goku is seen doing it in the movie with Piccolo's boost. But it is a movie, so I was just saying it as a throwaway.

      It didn't affect what I was saying.

      I can see that nothing I say will change your mind, which means you are not here to debate; you are here to lecture. Let's just agree to disagree, as you aren't really providing any solid information to this topic in my opinion. You are just sort of saying that it is so without addressing my reasons for it not being so.

      I will continue this if you can give me a reason why Goku being less than 1/10th the size of Golden Oozaru Baby but with similar strength does not equate to a domination.

      You need to show me:

      - A feat that shows him being 8 times stronger than Oozaru Baby

      - An official source that confirms your claim (quote from the show, a writer etc...)

      - A valid dispute of my claim regarding size, speed and power

      - Some equally or greater proof that disputes anything I have said or supports anything you have said

      If you can not, then I simply halt this discussion on top by having cited in show sources. Consider this: SSJ4 Goku had to take energy from 3 other Saiyans AFTER transforming to become an SFP-SSJ4 before defeating Baby. If he was 10 times stronger, I doubt he would have needed the Super Fully Powered boost. Also, Majuub had to attack Baby from the inside to distract him during the fight.

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    • kaioken x100 was dub only, in the pamphlets it says 10x and in the sub it says 10x... 10x SSJ is too small to be able to beat a further enhanced Golden Great Ape Baby the way he did.. it has to be at max 4000x base... when using his absolute max power he was beating even Syn Shenron who was by far stronger than Baby. 500x is just too small.

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    • He lost to Syn Shenron. Gogeta Fusion was used. He ended up being arguably (probably) killed and then beating Syn with plot devices in his base form while (probably) dead.

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    • That was Omega Shenron you are thinking about, he is Omega when he absorbs the other dark dragon balls.. he is Syn Shenron when he has one dark dragon ball, and SS4 Goku at maximum power was beating him until he became Omega Shenron.

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    • Omega Shenron IS Syn Shenron. That's like saying SSJ Goku is a different character than Base Goku.

      So can you show me any sort of evidence that Syn Shenron is marginally stronger than Golden Oozaru Baby? And that Goku did not substantially increase in base power between the arcs? We had the Super 17 Arc and all of the Shadow Dragon arc in between, not to mention the Zenkai Boost after fighting Baby.

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    • That's speculative that he would get THAT much stronger from Baby onto the Shadow Dragons arc. Syn Shenron was called the strongest Shadow Dragon.. Nuova Shenron at his full power was fighting near equal to a serious SS4 Goku.. who also beat Baby when he was serious.. Syn is stronger than Nuova. So that should tell you right there.

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    • If you think about your statement, you sort of answered my question. If Nuova fought near equal to SSJ4 Goku, and SSJ4 Goku wrecked Syn, as you said earlier... and Syn was the Strongest Dragon, then one can assume that Goku got stronger between just those two fights. Thank you for proving my point.

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    • Solember wrote:
      0551E80Y wrote:
      no such thing as kaioken times 100. And goku was going to obliterate baby before baby transformed he wanted baby to suffer and was going to he crippled baby in a couple hits when he was clearly holding back, and took his strongest attack head on without a scratch. a 1.25 increase from ssj3 can't do this. ssj3 was unable to damage baby at all. golden ozaruu is focusing the power and then transforming it increasing the power wage.

      so that video game is wrong. being ten times more powerful then ssj3 is able to pull something like this off.

      lol I mean, yes, Kaio Ken x 100 does exist. It is specifically mentioned in the pamphlets that came with the Lord Slug movie, and Goku is seen doing it in the movie with Piccolo's boost. But it is a movie, so I was just saying it as a throwaway.

      It didn't affect what I was saying.

      I can see that nothing I say will change your mind, which means you are not here to debate; you are here to lecture. Let's just agree to disagree, as you aren't really providing any solid information to this topic in my opinion. You are just sort of saying that it is so without addressing my reasons for it not being so.

      I will continue this if you can give me a reason why Goku being less than 1/10th the size of Golden Oozaru Baby but with similar strength does not equate to a domination.

      You need to show me:

      - A feat that shows him being 8 times stronger than Oozaru Baby

      - An official source that confirms your claim (quote from the show, a writer etc...)

      - A valid dispute of my claim regarding size, speed and power

      - Some equally or greater proof that disputes anything I have said or supports anything you have said

      If you can not, then I simply halt this discussion on top by having cited in show sources. Consider this: SSJ4 Goku had to take energy from 3 other Saiyans AFTER transforming to become an SFP-SSJ4 before defeating Baby. If he was 10 times stronger, I doubt he would have needed the Super Fully Powered boost. Also, Majuub had to attack Baby from the inside to distract him during the fight.

      you didn't even source what you wrote. So who are you to talk. I'm just disputing that 1.25 increase. It's univeraslly reconized as 10 times ssj3. It's even talked here . but whatever this is just wasting my time. Zany101 is more right then you'll ever be.


      As regarding syn. Syn killed a full powered nouva with two blasts, the first one caught him off guard but the second one aimed for ssj4 goku that nouva jumped in the way to protect who was blinded and somewhat drained from fighting eis. goku then got decimated by syn even after using ten times kamehameha on him which didn't hurt him.

      After getting his energy recharged and increased by gohan goten and trunks. Goku attained that ssj4 full power stage, His energy had skyrocketed past what he was before. But i think it was weaker then the one against baby cos pan didn't contribute this time. He then decimated syn without much effort who then turned the tables again becoming omega increased his power by ten times who butchered full power ssj4 goku without much effort.

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    • 0551E80Y wrote:

      as a i said earlier ssj4 being only 1.25 times more powerful then 3 wouldn't have stopped baby. Goku became so strong in ssj4 that their roles became completely reversed. even as baby went golden great ape which increased his strength ten fold. there is definitly a ten fold power there but it's not by ssj 1 it's too feeble. 

      also that goku nearly destroying the universe with beerus is an outlier cos goku hasn't replicated the feat since then in super even though he has gotten stronger. and it hasn't been brought up that goku can do it since.

      The gap between SSJ3 Goku and Baby wasn't that big. Comparatively, the gap between base Goku and Frieza on Namek was much much greater. Also, doubling one's power can have a huge change on the outcome. Perfect Cell was crushing SSJ Gohan in a bearhug, while SSJ2 Gohan completely wiped the floor with him.

      If it was by a 10x gap, then SSJ4 Goku would have oneshotted Baby with a finger.


      Not an outlier. Reason why it shook the universe is because that happened only when Beerus contributed to the punch as well. Besides, even if Goku was strong enough to shake the universe, he wouldn't, as he was aware of how much damage that did last time and actually made attempts to nullify Beerus' attempt at it.

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    • It is that big.  ssj3 goku hit baby both times but baby didn't even get scratched he down pounded ssj3 goku with little effort till he was unable to move. until goku transformed to a golden great ape. 30 million difference but frieza was able to damage goku for a while.

      Regarding cell. perfect and super perfect could be damaged by fpssj goku gohan, ssj trunks and vegeta. Goku blasted cell's upper body off, gohan  kicked him in the face and caused him to bleed. vegeta managed to stun super perfect cell so gohan could finish him. and cell even claimed that trunks was stronger then him. Ssj2 gohan is a very unique case among ssj2s.  

      Because gohan had this 'unlimited potential' ability that causes his power to increase far more then usual when he's angry. which is why he was able to crush cell with barely any effort and later defeat him along the other factors for cell. It could be that ssj2 gohan was stronger then the average ssj2. Goku vegeta and trunks trained themselves for many years to surpass what gohan showed as a ssj2.  While gohan lacked the abiltiy to tap into that same power again, cos he hadn't trained and the motivation just wasn't at the same level for him. 


      Goku 'CAN' one shot baby with a finger but not by holding back. Why do you think a 1.25 increse in power can do this ssj3 was nothing to baby. It was like when goku battled beerus as a ssj3 and then vegeta did after bulma got slapped. It made him stronger but not enough to defeat beerus.

      Baby is far stronger then 1.25 times stronger then ssj3. from what i've seen it's at least 5, which would make sense for ssj4 to be 10 and then golden great ape increases it ten fold making baby 15 and ful power ssj4 goku at least 18.

      He held back to pummel baby as revenge for what baby did, When baby transformed to golden great ape it increased his power but goku sort of had an advantage over baby like throwing him and punching him. But baby wasn't slowing down, it didn't damage him that much. till baby started playing dirty by aiming for his loved ones and fired at the earth. which goku took the blast and 'damaged' him. the ten times kamehameha after effect paralyzed baby and also weakened him so that when goku hit him. it knocked him out. till he got recharged by bulma.

      It's an outlier for goku beerus has replicated the feat over again with his brother. while goku was scared. Goku on the otherhand hasn't replicated the feat not even with vegeta who is as strong as him. People keep claiming that goku could destroy the universe because of that feat when in fact it's shown he can't. He's fought at his hardest after that fight while getting stronger against frieza hit and zamasu. But nothing happend. Beerus did it at 70% power. which goku can match but goku hasn't done it since. 

      How come this didn't destroy the universe? Both of these characters are far stronger then what goku and beerus showed in the first arc. and they fought harder.

      Everyone is saying that super goku is mentally challenged now. the current arc has people see him as a villain cos he's put all of existance at risk for his own enjoyment for the tournament of power. so i would take that last bit not seriously.

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    • Doesn't feel much different to Fat Buu vs. Gohan, where getting a few hits in does no lasting damage. A 10x gap should've been a complete stomp where Goku wouldn't even be able to touch him.

      Goku managed to damage Cell, at full power, and needing Cell to be caught off guard. The attack also left Goku completely drained and he couldn't keep fighting without a senzu. Yeah, Gohan got a kick in, but also did no lasting damage. For the rest of the time prior to going SSJ2, Cell overwhelmed him, where Goku was being a dick father and refused to intervene. You can't seriously be comparing Cell to Ultra Trunks? That's a whole different transformation, which is power weighted and designed to be stronger but slower.

      That hidden potential thing stopped being relevant after Buu Saga. Especially in GT where it was all Goku Time. Goku has to defeat every enemy, Goku always the strongest, Goku unlocks every new form. Goku, Goku, Goku.

      Are you kidding? Beerus is miles above Baby. Goku couldn't even touch Beerus and got slammed through the planet by a finger poke. You can say Baby was toying with Goku if you want, but the speed and strength gap was quite obviously smaller. Speculation, you can only guess Goku can, but no evidence to show that.

      Look I'm not making up the numbers, they came from a Dragon Ball source. Unlike the 10x SSJ3 which is completely fanon.

      Since when has Goku ever made an enemy suffer out of revenge? Aside from that one OOC instance where he didn't learn to control SSJ and wanted Frieza to suffer (and even then he showed Frieza mercy), all other instances Goku has never prolonged a fight to make the enemy suffer.

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    • I forgotten something. i'm not talking to you anymore stryzzar you should know better then this. i'll end it on this.  It's a comparision. and the point you're missing is that ssj3 couldn't even make baby bleed there was no visal damage on baby. nothing on him it's zero effective. Goku is the type the make someone suffer for their wrong doings when they know that they won't change. In the end he 'murdered' baby by blasting him into the sun. Saiyan nature makes it that goku becomes more impulsive and prone to violence and sadicity when transformed due to trying to control the power affects his emotions. 


      goku also damaged cell earlier by kicking him that's the difference with baby. Goku could stun push and make cell flinch while baby was basically like broly. Punching him does nothing. If it came from cell's own mouth yeah i can. 

      And the source they did is most likely a typing error it was supposed to be ssj3 it being ssj1 conflicts with the show not surprising since the entire franchise is built on contradicitons. If it's universally reconized as 4000 times base keep it like that.

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    • Hey you talked to me first, don't go blaming me now.

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    • you replied to me when i wasn't even talking to you in the beginning i was talking to solember. If you have this impulse to reply to me ignore it.

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    • You quoted my reply when I wasn't even talking to you. I was just responding.

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    • You responded to something i wrote to solember not something i wrote to you. i was disputuing the 1.25 times increase but the conversation changed to solember. Don't reply anymore.

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    • Orly? What's this then?

      0551E80Y wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:
      I usually don't, but official sources are so lacking for GT numbers. But SSJ4 is definitely not 10x SSJ3, that's wanking SSJ4 way too high. SSJ2 was 2x SSJ, while SSJ3 was 4x SSJ2, and both were massive boosts in power over their previous forms. There's no way that SSJ4 is that much higher than SSJ3.

      as a i said earlier ssj4 being only 1.25 times more powerful then 3 wouldn't have stopped baby. Goku became so strong in ssj4 that their roles became completely reversed. even as baby went golden great ape which increased his strength ten fold. there is definitly a ten fold power there but it's not by ssj 1 it's too feeble. 

      also that goku nearly destroying the universe with beerus is an outlier cos goku hasn't replicated the feat since then in super even though he has gotten stronger. and it hasn't been brought up that goku can do it since.

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    • 0551E80Y
      0551E80Y removed this reply because:
      no reason.
      10:43, March 16, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Why did you continued it then? you knew better. here's to crush any belief that you think i will ever change. 1 year from now if we talked my stance will be the same ten years from now: the same even on my deathbed i will not have changed. Get rid of any thought patteren in your mind that i will change.

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    • Your thoughts are always such a joy to read.

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    • I'm your vegeta then i guess.

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    • Have fun not talking to me then.

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    • 0551E80Y
      0551E80Y removed this reply because:
      .
      11:17, March 16, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    •   Loading editor
    • Yet you continue replying to me. The internal conflict you must be experiencing.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Yet you continue replying to me. The internal conflict you must be experiencing.


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    • You know I kind of like it better now that we're not tearing each other apart.

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    • 0551E80Y sort of admitted he doesn't care about facts, and now he is mocking you. Clearly dealing with someone who came to lecture, not to debate, so there is no point. He addressed none of the points asked of him. He simply keeps repeating nonsense. At this point, I believe he has lost the discussion.

      SUMMARY

      SSJB is 200,000 x Multiplier at the LEAST

      SSJ4 is a 500 x Multiplier

      DISPUTE

      IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO DISPUTE THIS, PLEASE DO SO WITH SOURCES THAT COUNTER ARGUMENTS MADE. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME WITHOUT SOURCES THAT AT LEAST EQUAL MY OWN. I HAVE CITED THE SHOW ITSELF, SO ANYTHING LESS IS FAN CANON. THANK YOU FOR RESPECTING BASIC DEBATE STANDARDS! HAVE A NICE DAY!

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    • SS4 is 500x base at the least and 4000x at the most. It is worlds above SS3 in ALL aspects as shown in GT. and it is questionably compared to SSG which is 9 times less than the supposed 200,000x base form for SSB you came up with, making SSG about 22,222x stronger than base form.. SS4 being 4000x stronger than base form is just fine. Also 100 divided by 10 equals 10... meaning that 10 goes into 100 10 times right?? that means if SSG is already 10% of SSB(100%) that SSB is only NINE times stronger than SSG. Do you understand what I am trying to tell you??

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    • Solember wrote:
      0551E80Y sort of admitted he doesn't care about facts, and now he is mocking you. Clearly dealing with someone who came to lecture, not to debate, so there is no point. He addressed none of the points asked of him. He simply keeps repeating nonsense. At this point, I believe he has lost the discussion.

      SUMMARY

      SSJB is 200,000 x Multiplier at the LEAST

      SSJ4 is a 500 x Multiplier

      DISPUTE

      IF ANYONE WOULD LIKE TO DISPUTE THIS, PLEASE DO SO WITH SOURCES THAT COUNTER ARGUMENTS MADE. DO NOT ARGUE WITH ME WITHOUT SOURCES THAT AT LEAST EQUAL MY OWN. I HAVE CITED THE SHOW ITSELF, SO ANYTHING LESS IS FAN CANON. THANK YOU FOR RESPECTING BASIC DEBATE STANDARDS! HAVE A NICE DAY!

      You hear that people facts. Even facts that contradict each other with inconscities as well. the ultimate fact  dragon ball is built on incoscities with the original author suffering from severe memory problems that causes him to unable to keep his story consistent. gt also suffered from this problem as well most likely due to being rushed.

      People who say i lost the discussion shows that they seem to have very little for them to go in life. If you feel you have won LEAVE AND NEVER COME BACK!

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    • Chill, you took this too personal.

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    • not really it just gets heated so you want to step back so everything cools down.

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    • Ok, Quaking star...

      What is 10 percent of 100?

      10

      What do you have to multiply 10% by to get back to 100%?

      10

      The multiplier is 10 from SSJG to SSJB

      Please check the math:

      100 / 10=10 so 10 x 10=100

      10% x 9=90% so if the multiplier was 9, SSJG would be 11.11% of SSJB

      Do you see any errors with this math? If you are confused, please ask a friend to explain it to you.

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    • For those thinking that GT can be a follow up, it can't be. Several things have been changed in Super, such as Supreme Kai and Kibito defusing. It's even been said by Kibito Kai himself that Baby Vegeta had the strongest ki he has felt which would make absolutely no sense considering the fact that Beerus would destroy Baby Vegeta.

      SSJ4 is 10x times SSJ as previously stated, you can just do the calculations and go by facts, x10 Kamehameha is x10 SSJ Goku's Super Kamehameha and the fact that SSJ4 is just a condensed version of a Golden Great Ape which is literally 10 x 50 (for people who have doubt). And I firmly believe that SSJB > SSJ4 considering the fact that SSG vs Beerus just colliding their punches threaten to destroy the entire universe along with Frieza vs Goku in RF also said that they could destroy the universe as well. If you're comparing Vegito (DBZ) in league with SSJ4, then SSG still stomps considering the fact that Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta still wouldn't be enough to defeat Beerus. Meanwhile, SSG managed to push Beerus to 70%. Then you stack on SSB which is stronger than SSG and basically SSJ4 isn't even a match for that. I hope this can clear some of the stuff I saw on the thread hopefully. If you want a more reliable person, I prefer you listen to SethTheProgrammer considering he's the best when it comes to power scaling and calculations.

      As for how strong SBG is, I would say relatively strong as SSG considering the fact that it's essentially the same form just not taking on the appearance I suppose. This can be supported by the fact the fight between Final Form Frieza and SBG Goku were fighting so fast that nobody could really see them, despite the fact they were both suppressed, if I might say while 70% Beerus and Goku's fight still had people seeing them.

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    • Beerus lied about using 70%, which makes all of the Super characters much more powerful than we have been thinking.

      10*50=500, so SSJ4 is 500 times base form. SSJ3 is 400 times base form. SSJ4 is 1.25 times SSJ3 because 500 is 1.25 times 400. I think you meant to say SSJ4 is 10 times SSJ (Regular Super Saiyan), right?

      As for power scaling... well, I really think power levels should only apply to anyone weaker than Gohan at this point, because as of right now, the feats of the characters are beyond power levels (which is yet another reason to discard GT from the current continuity).

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    • Solember wrote: Beerus lied about using 70%, which makes all of the Super characters much more powerful than we have been thinking.

      10*50=500, so SSJ4 is 500 times base form. SSJ3 is 400 times base form. SSJ4 is 1.25 times SSJ3 because 500 is 1.25 times 400. I think you meant to say SSJ4 is 10 times SSJ (Regular Super Saiyan), right?

      As for power scaling... well, I really think power levels should only apply to anyone weaker than Gohan at this point, because as of right now, the feats of the characters are beyond power levels (which is yet another reason to discard GT from the current continuity).

      Yeah, regular Super Saiyan :p should've said that. The only one that might have a chance against an opponent stronger than Gohan in Super would probably be Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta.

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    • I don't think you're getting what I am saying.. SSG IS 10% of SSB's full power..  add 10% nine more times and it makes the total 100% which is SSB. Which means that SSB (100%) is NINE times stronger than SSG (10% of SSB's power)

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    • I didn't calculate how powerful SSB is so chill out. I was only talking about how strong SSJ4 is and just powerscaling some of the characters to others.


      Off-topic but I still do not understand why Baby ditched Gohan for Vegeta. Gohan is arguably stronger than Vegeta in the Baby + Super 17 saga considering the fact it was stated he trained. Vegeta was still stuck at Super Saiyan 2 while Gohan (and for some odd reason I honestly do not know why they took Mystic away from him) had Mystic ability. Gohan could've even turned idk Mystic Great Ape or something lol

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    • Ok, Quaking... I am not saying you are dumb or anything, but I am going to make this really simple.

      If I have 1 APPLE and I add 9 APPLES I will have 10 APPLES

      That is ADDITION

      If I have 1 APPLE and I multiply that by 10, I will have 10 APPLES

      That is MULTIPLICATION

      So let us use 10 now.


      If I have 10 power level and I 'ADD '90 I will have 100

      If I have 10 power level and I MULTIPLY 10 I will have 100

      If I have 10 power level and I MULTIPLY 9 I will have 90


      YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ADDITION OF 90, NOT A MULTIPLIER OF 10 OR 9. 10 TIMES 10 EQUALS 100. IF SSJG IS 10% OF SSJB, IT TAKES 10 SSJG TO MAKE 1 SSJB!

      SSJB = 10xSSJG, so SSJGx10 = SSJB


      CAN SOMEONE PLEASE VERIFY FOR QUAKING THAT I AM CORRECT IN THIS SO HE WILL STOP DEBATING THIS? THAT WOULD REALLY HELP! QUAKING, SERIOUSLY... TEXT SOMEONE YOU KNOW AND ASK THEM WHAT YOU HAVE TO MULTIPLY 10% BY TO GET 100%. YOU ARE MISSING MATH THAT AN 8 YEAR OLD IN THE U.S.A. WOULD KNOW. I AM LEGITIMATELY CONSIDERING TAKING ALL OF YOUR POSTS AND CONVERTING THEM INTO A 9GAG IMAGE TO MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH... THIS IS EASY MATH, AND VERY EASY TO VERIFY. I ASSURE YOU, ANY ADULT YOU KNOW CAN VERIFY THIS!

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    • Solember wrote: Ok, Quaking... I am not saying you are dumb or anything, but I am going to make this really simple.

      If I have 1 APPLE and I add 9 APPLES I will have 10 APPLES

      That is ADDITION

      If I have 1 APPLE and I multiply that by 10, I will have 10 APPLES

      That is MULTIPLICATION

      So let us use 10 now.


      If I have 10 power level and I 'ADD '90 I will have 100

      If I have 10 power level and I MULTIPLY 10 I will have 100

      If I have 10 power level and I MULTIPLY 9 I will have 90


      YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ADDITION OF 90, NOT A MULTIPLIER OF 10 OR 9. 10 TIMES 10 EQUALS 100. IF SSJG IS 10% OF SSJB, IT TAKES 10 SSJG TO MAKE 1 SSJB!

      SSJB = 10xSSJG, so SSJGx10 = SSJB


      CAN SOMEONE PLEASE VERIFY FOR QUAKING THAT I AM CORRECT IN THIS SO HE WILL STOP DEBATING THIS? THAT WOULD REALLY HELP! QUAKING, SERIOUSLY... TEXT SOMEONE YOU KNOW AND ASK THEM WHAT YOU HAVE TO MULTIPLY 10% BY TO GET 100%. YOU ARE MISSING MATH THAT AN 8 YEAR OLD IN THE U.S.A. WOULD KNOW. I AM LEGITIMATELY CONSIDERING TAKING ALL OF YOUR POSTS AND CONVERTING THEM INTO A 9GAG IMAGE TO MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH... THIS IS EASY MATH, AND VERY EASY TO VERIFY. I ASSURE YOU, ANY ADULT YOU KNOW CAN VERIFY THIS!

      Beerus and Whis stated Vegeta in SSB could only use 1/10th of his actual power meaning, 100/10 = 10%. There, I just verified simple math, lel

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    • Twizzzler wrote:

      Solember wrote: Ok, Quaking... I am not saying you are dumb or anything, but I am going to make this really simple.

      If I have 1 APPLE and I add 9 APPLES I will have 10 APPLES

      That is ADDITION

      If I have 1 APPLE and I multiply that by 10, I will have 10 APPLES

      That is MULTIPLICATION

      So let us use 10 now.


      If I have 10 power level and I 'ADD '90 I will have 100

      If I have 10 power level and I MULTIPLY 10 I will have 100

      If I have 10 power level and I MULTIPLY 9 I will have 90


      YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT ADDITION OF 90, NOT A MULTIPLIER OF 10 OR 9. 10 TIMES 10 EQUALS 100. IF SSJG IS 10% OF SSJB, IT TAKES 10 SSJG TO MAKE 1 SSJB!

      SSJB = 10xSSJG, so SSJGx10 = SSJB


      CAN SOMEONE PLEASE VERIFY FOR QUAKING THAT I AM CORRECT IN THIS SO HE WILL STOP DEBATING THIS? THAT WOULD REALLY HELP! QUAKING, SERIOUSLY... TEXT SOMEONE YOU KNOW AND ASK THEM WHAT YOU HAVE TO MULTIPLY 10% BY TO GET 100%. YOU ARE MISSING MATH THAT AN 8 YEAR OLD IN THE U.S.A. WOULD KNOW. I AM LEGITIMATELY CONSIDERING TAKING ALL OF YOUR POSTS AND CONVERTING THEM INTO A 9GAG IMAGE TO MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH... THIS IS EASY MATH, AND VERY EASY TO VERIFY. I ASSURE YOU, ANY ADULT YOU KNOW CAN VERIFY THIS!

      Beerus and Whis stated Vegeta in SSB could only use 1/10th of his actual power meaning, 100/10 = 10%. There, I just verified simple math, lel

      LOL, I said it that way at the beginning. I don't get what he doesn't get.

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    • There's nothing hard to understand, it's just simple division.

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    • Here we go. Condensed Conversation Posted on 9Gag

      Let's see if someone there can explain it better...

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    • I got it, I was just tired af yesterday from not sleeping much.

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    • This Is A Dumb Conversation, lol. I Don't Think Saiyan Beyond God Has A Multiplier, Because Of The Fact That Its Just A God Ki Empowered Base Form.

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    • http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/File:GM5BabyVegeta(DBHArt).png


      Do you see something from this image? Baby Vegeta is in Tuffleized SS3 form a.k.a. Super Baby (Strongest Form 2). he turns into Golden Great Ape Baby and is still beaten by SS4 Goku.. there is no Golden Great Ape 2 or 3 just Golden Great Ape. You know what that means? When going SS3 it brings out the users full power without Great Ape's addition and Goku is shown with Great Ape behind him when going SS3.. therefor I believe when he goes into Golden Great Ape.. it is 10x his full super saiyan power(SS3). It makes much more sense than the ridiculous supposed 1.25x upgrade since Golden Great Ape Baby would instantly be too strong for SS4 Goku if that was the case, considering ss3 goku is no match for Strongest Form 2 Baby(SS3 Tuffleized Vegeta)

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    • That was simply a base form. The anime and manga don't imply that "Saiyan beyond god" is another base form.

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    • Star, Golden Great Ape Bebi Was Stronger Than A Normal Golden Great Ape Due To Having Immediate Control, And The Enhancement Of Other People's Power. Btw, SSJB Post Stamina Drain Is 10% Of What SSJB's Power Would Be If He Had Full Stamina. SSJG Wasn't Stated To Be 10% Of SSJB, It Was Stated To Be Stronger Than 10% Of SSJB's Power. Btw, Golden Great Ape With Its x1.25 Is Off SSJ3, Not From Base. That's A 500x Multiplier, Lmao.

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    • That's what I was saying, if it's only a 500x multiplier, then it's not strong enough.. that is simply adding 1 more ss2 to the power of a ss3.. and there is no way in HELL that would be able to beat Baby in Stongest Form 2, or Golden Great Ape. It has to be 4000x base form for Golden Great Ape and SS4.

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    • Except Its Not. lol. Bebi Had To Go Golden Great Ape To Beat Goku In Golden Great Ape, Which Means That Goku Was Stronger Than Him In Golden Great Ape But Not In SSJ3, Which Means That Bebi Vegeta Was Only About 450x Vegeta's Base.

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    • SSJ4 Goku was evenly matched with Golden Great Ape Baby. It was only then when Goten, Gohan, Trunks and Pan gave him energy to defeat him. Not to mention, regardless of what form Baby was in, he can't be 4000x. That's impossible, you can't simply go SSJ3 Golden Great Ape. No character has done that, not even Goku. Full Power SSJ4 > Golden Great Ape = Normal SSJ4.

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    • If Strongest Form 2 Bebi Vegeta Was 450x Like I Guessed, And He Went Golden Great Ape, That's A 562.5x Multiplier, lol.

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    • You're not listening to me. Just because he was in SF2 and went Golden Great Ape doesn't mean the multiplier somehow increased to that much. It was stated several times that Golden Great Ape and SSJ4 were similar in power. How the hell are you going to tell me when it was shown Goku (who reverted back to BASE FORM) went Golden Great Ape then went SSJ4 (which DIDNT change the multiplier still, it's just a CONDENSED version) and managed to beat SF2 Baby who dominated SSJ3 w/ a tail. Golden Great Ape Baby only started to take the advantage when Infected Bulma gave him more energy and Goku had almost none. Please rewatch GT if you honestly do not understand what I'm trying to say here. Just, there's no big of an increase like almost 600x for simple Golden Great Ape Baby. It's only 500x

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    • Ssj4 isnt 10 x ssj. Golden oozaru is 10 x ssj.

      Ssj4 = super vegeto ( gt perfect files ). Vegetto = portara. Portara = Ys battle power x Xs battle power


      Ssj2 vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% of his power. Making vegeta 9% of beerus. Ssj2 is 4x weaker then ssj3. I say ssj3 is about 8% compared to beerus. Why? Because then there is a 10% diffence between ssj2 angry vegeta and ssj3 goku(wich is a huge considering that vegeta already had to get 300x stronger to equal ssj3 goku). In short vegeta got a masive boost of 440x from the rage(wich is quite hard to believe but lets role whit it)

      Akira has said that ssg = 60% of beerus. The difference between ssj3 and ssg = 7.5

      ssg = 3,000 x base.

      Ssb is 10 x ssg

      • 018.png

      Saiyan beyond god Equals ssj1 ÷ ssg = 60 x base

      ssj4. I will use a confirmed power level of goku dbz frieza saga.(3,000,000) and will say that vegeta is equal to goku.

      Super vegeto = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt is 400x stronger then dbz goku(1,200,000,000) is his base.

      divide super vegeto by gt goku = 375,000

      Conclusion :

      • Sbg  = 60 x base
      • Ssjg = 3,000 x base
      • Ssjb = 30,000 x base
      • Ssj4 = 375,000 x base
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      • pfft* Super Saiyan 4 is 375,000 base?! What is you smoking?! Okay let's go back to the top... yeah, I'm gonna ignore the Super Saiyan 4 equals Super Vegito line... Rage Vegeta forcing Beerus to use 10% of his power does not equal Rage Vegeta being 9% of Beerus' power, there being a 10% difference between Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Rage Vegeta is even more bulls**t like seriously it was never stated anywhere that there was 10% difference.

      Akira never ever said Super Saiyan God Goku was equal to 60% of Beerus' power, he said Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, and Whis is a 15. Which means no one knows the difference between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan 3.

      Yes, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is 10 times Super Saiyan God.

      I don't even know how you came up with the rest of this s**t.

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    • LMAO

      Ssj4 = super vegeto is hard to ignore.

      In short translate it says that super vegeto is PERHAPS stronger then ssj4.

      Your point about beerus had to use 10% doesnt mean vegeta was 9% of beerus. I dont know where u learned math but tier teaching wanst good at all if u actualy believe that. If beerus had to use 10% vegeta had to be 9% other wise beerus dint have to use 10%.

      Ssj3 being 8% makes sence. lets say ssj3 is 1% then vegeta ssj2 is 10 x ssj3 goku wich is inpossable to believe since ssj3 is 4 x ssj2. If that where the case then why would they ever use a transformation to begin whit when they just can get angry and get hundreds of multiplication.(also this will heavy contradict whit goku vs frieza and gohan vs cell they where angry and they dint get a increase in power but rather a new form)

      The point about ssg being 60% again here aplys the same as above. Its a scale of 10. 10 being 100% 6 therefor is 60% and 15 being 150%. Well u could argue the scale is if 15 but that wont go well since then ssg will be far less then i previously said.

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    • Beerus using 10% means; 10% Beerus is stronger than Vegeta. Not 10% Beerus = Vegeta.

      Also the rage SSJ2 Vegeta thing was an outlier. Vegeta's anger allowed him to defy powerlevels and multipliers momentarily and overshoot Goku.

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    • Stryzzar wrote: Beerus using 10% means; 10% Beerus is stronger than Vegeta. Not 10% Beerus = Vegeta.

      Also the rage SSJ2 Vegeta thing was an outlier. Vegeta's anger allowed him to defy powerlevels and multipliers momentarily and overshoot Goku.

      Hence vegeta was 9%.

      Indeed, and gave him a miltiplication of 440x on his base(more then 3 times ssj2 on his ssj2 state)surpassing ssj3

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    • Zany101 wrote: Ssj4 isnt 10 x ssj. Golden oozaru is 10 x ssj.

      Ssj4 = super vegeto ( gt perfect files ). Vegetto = portara. Portara = Ys battle power x Xs battle power


      Ssj2 vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% of his power. Making vegeta 9% of beerus. Ssj2 is 4x weaker then ssj3. I say ssj3 is about 8% compared to beerus. Why? Because then there is a 10% diffence between ssj2 angry vegeta and ssj3 goku(wich is a huge considering that vegeta already had to get 300x stronger to equal ssj3 goku). In short vegeta got a masive boost of 440x from the rage(wich is quite hard to believe but lets role whit it)

      Akira has said that ssg = 60% of beerus. The difference between ssj3 and ssg = 7.5

      ssg = 3,000 x base.

      Ssb is 10 x ssg

      • 018.png

      Saiyan beyond god Equals ssj1 ÷ ssg = 60 x base

      ssj4. I will use a confirmed power level of goku dbz frieza saga.(3,000,000) and will say that vegeta is equal to goku.

      Super vegeto = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt is 400x stronger then dbz goku(1,200,000,000) is his base.

      divide super vegeto by gt goku = 375,000

      Conclusion :

      • Sbg  = 60 x base
      • Ssjg = 3,000 x base
      • Ssjb = 30,000 x base
      • Ssj4 = 375,000 x base

      Jesus Christ this is absolutely ridiculous. SSJ4 IS 10x regular SSJ, hence "x10 Kamehameha". If you're legit saying Golden Great Ape is 10x SSJ and SSJ4 is 375,000 x base, then why the hell was Goku struggling to defeat Baby. Why would he need to absorb the others powers just to beat him if he's clearly that powerful. Also you're fighting the feat of when Goku was fighting Beerus and they weren't going full power yet they ALMOST destroyed the entire universe. Also the argument about scaling makes absolutely no goddamn sense. Beerus AND Whis stated that Goku pushed him to 70% of his full power then it was stated that it was actually MORE than that. Super Saiyan 4 is only 1.25 x SSJ3 meaning he's somewhere between 20-30% of Beerus' ability. Please stop with this crappy calculation, oml

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    • Why goku strugled against oozaru baby?

      First u need to know who baby is.

      Baby does not have transformations that he can tap in and out of. Hes like cell.

      So babys last form(final form baby)became his base form(confirmed in gt perfect files vol 1).

      His final form was already far and far superior to ssj3 goku that got his tail wich made him much stronger.

      Baby transformed into golden oozaru(ssj oozaru) wich made baby 500 times stronger then he previously was.

      So goku(base form) wich was already far and far weaker then baby had to go ssj4.

      If ssj4 was only 10x ssj he wouldn't come even close to golden oozaru baby.

      Also : its a fact that ssj4 equals super vegeto. And as i showed in the calculation u will get a result of 375,000 x base.

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      Hence vegeta was 9%.

      Indeed, and gave him a miltiplication of 440x on his base(more then 3 times ssj2 on his ssj2 state)surpassing ssj3

      It could be 9%, but we don't know for sure. It's just Beerus chose to use 10%, but it never said if he had to use 10%. For all we know he could have beaten Vegeta with 9% just as easily.

      Idk if Vegeta's thing even needs a multiplier. It was a one-time thing which never showed up or became relevant ever again. It was mainly there just for plot progression.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      Hence vegeta was 9%.

      Indeed, and gave him a miltiplication of 440x on his base(more then 3 times ssj2 on his ssj2 state)surpassing ssj3

      It could be 9%, but we don't know for sure. It's just Beerus chose to use 10%, but it never said if he had to use 10%. For all we know he could have beaten Vegeta with 9% just as easily.

      Idk if Vegeta's thing even needs a multiplier. It was a one-time thing which never showed up or became relevant ever again. It was mainly there just for plot progression.

      Beerus quote "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      We do know that beerus had to use 10% there for vegeta was 9%.

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      Beerus quote "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      We do know that beerus had to use 10% there for vegeta was 9%.

      I thought you'd bring up that quote, it's still very ambiguous. It only really shows that whatever Beerus used when Vegeta punched his stomach was not enough so he had to go higher. He could have gone to 10% for convenience.

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    • Okay here u dont make any sence. beerus says he was forced to use 10%. then he had to use 10%. If he had to use 10% then vegeta was 9% otherwise beerus wanst forced to use 10%.

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    • That's one interpretation. But the only clear conclusion we can draw is "10% Beerus > Vegeta", other variables are debatable.

      But honestly, it doesn't really matter anyway. In these calculations, I usually just assume Vegeta is 9-10% Beerus -ish to make it easier.

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      Why goku strugled against oozaru baby?

      First u need to know who baby is.

      Baby does not have transformations that he can tap in and out of. Hes like cell.

      So babys last form(final form baby)became his base form(confirmed in gt perfect files vol 1).

      His final form was already far and far superior to ssj3 goku that got his tail wich made him much stronger.

      Baby transformed into golden oozaru(ssj oozaru) wich made baby 500 times stronger then he previously was.

      So goku(base form) wich was already far and far weaker then baby had to go ssj4.

      If ssj4 was only 10x ssj he wouldn't come even close to golden oozaru baby.

      Also : its a fact that ssj4 equals super vegeto. And as i showed in the calculation u will get a result of 375,000 x base.

      Do you know what 10 x 50 (which is the multiplier for regularly SSJ) is? It's 500. They were evenly matched until both of them ran out of power. You can even search it up on this wikia if you do not believe me. And for the love of god, you are just talking nonsense. First you say SSJ4 is stronger than Vegito then you say SSJ4 is weaker now you're saying they're equal. You do realize this GT Goku we're talking about here. GT Goku's base form = SSJ3 Goku then you multiple that by 500 and bam. Vegito on the other hand, IS weaker than SSJ4. It was stated by Kibito Kai that Baby Vegeta's ki was the STRONGEST he felt. This saying SF2 Baby Vegeta > Buu Arc Vegito

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    • Twizzzler wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      Why goku strugled against oozaru baby?

      First u need to know who baby is.

      Baby does not have transformations that he can tap in and out of. Hes like cell.

      So babys last form(final form baby)became his base form(confirmed in gt perfect files vol 1).

      His final form was already far and far superior to ssj3 goku that got his tail wich made him much stronger.

      Baby transformed into golden oozaru(ssj oozaru) wich made baby 500 times stronger then he previously was.

      So goku(base form) wich was already far and far weaker then baby had to go ssj4.

      If ssj4 was only 10x ssj he wouldn't come even close to golden oozaru baby.

      Also : its a fact that ssj4 equals super vegeto. And as i showed in the calculation u will get a result of 375,000 x base.

      Do you know what 10 x 50 (which is the multiplier for regularly SSJ) is? It's 500. They were evenly matched until both of them ran out of power. You can even search it up on this wikia if you do not believe me. And for the love of god, you are just talking nonsense. First you say SSJ4 is stronger than Vegito then you say SSJ4 is weaker now you're saying they're equal. You do realize this GT Goku we're talking about here. GT Goku's base form = SSJ3 Goku then you multiple that by 500 and bam. Vegito on the other hand, IS weaker than SSJ4. It was stated by Kibito Kai that Baby Vegeta's ki was the STRONGEST he felt. This saying SF2 Baby Vegeta > Buu Arc Vegito

      Are u saying that ssj1 os a 500x multiplier? Ssj1 is a confirmed multiplier of 50x base.

      Eum did u read even what i have said? I have been saying all this time that ssj4 = vegeto.

      I do not understand what u mean whit "ssj3 multiplied by 500 and bam" im geasing u are saying that ssj4 is a 500x multiplier. Wich simply isnt true.

      Vegeto is or isnt weaker then ssj4(hence i say its equal to) U heavly underestimate the portara fusion. Wich is confirmed to be a x b in other words 3 milion x multiplier at least. Its by far superior to any transformation only rivaled by the fusion dance.

      Here are the sources :

      The secind source is in Japanese, it says that super vegetto is perhaps stronger then ssj4.(a very clear indicator that the 2 are very close to one another)

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    • If SSG is 60% stronger than SS3 that would make it less than 900x base form.. and SS4 has to be 4000x base form or it just doesn't work. Honestly how do we figure out what 60% more than SS3 is for SSG?? We know SSB is 10x Stronger than SSG. The wikia says that Toriyama says 60% for SSG btw and 10% for Quake of Fury SS2.

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    • Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

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    • Video games are not sources that take precendence of manga and databook precedence, so leave that bullshit out. SS4 is compared to Super Vegito, who is born of Goku's power multiplied by Vegeta's power multiplied by 50(Super Saiyan). 500x Goku's base power is only the power of two SS1 added onto the power of SS3. There is no Golden Great Ape 2 or 3 and in a constant canon there are only SS2 and SS3 electricies with those forms. Therefor Golden Great Ape Draws out the full power of the Saiyan including Super Saiyan 3's power(the saiyans non great ape full power).. the GT databook even says so. SOOOOOO that means you take the Saiyans Super Saiyan 3 power and multiply it by 10.... that is how you get SS4. leave the video game bullshit out of this. Zany we don't agree on a lot.. but don't you think 4000x is more accurate?

      Golden Great Ape, Super Saiyan 4, and the Evil Shenrons are the best things GT has, I think we can agree on that, even Toriyama likes Super Saiyan 4. In the end 500x base multiplier is illogical.

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    • It also says SSJ3 brings out the full power of a Saiyan, so... Invalid argument. SSJ4 is not the sequel to SSJ3. It is the Golden Great Ape mastered in the regular Saiyan body. Goku needed a boost to defeat GO Baby Vegeta. If SSJ4 was 4k times stronger than base, or 10 times SSJ3, it would have never been a problem to defeat Oozaru Baby. This argument is ridiculous. I'm closing this argument. You have only cited general sources. You lose dude. Sorry.

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    • Wow.. Super Saiyan 3 is a Saiyans full power.. Golden Oozaru is that x10.. the GT databook isn't wrong on Super Saiyan 4. Come back with non video game sources, until then you lose.. you haven't refuted ANYTHING in that comment. its 4000x base form until otherwise, you lose and I'm not sorry :)

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    • Fine. Not going to argue with someone who's already lost. It just creates spam. You have a poor attitude and no debate etiquette. People reading have enough data to make a conclusion. The original post's question was answered long ago anyways.

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    • Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

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    • 4000x base is the best conclusion for ss4, as on Kaizenshuu they made it clear with the image and the translation they were referring to normal vegito not super vegito..

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    • Zany101 wrote:

      Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

      So you're saying basically both of fusees have a power level of thats half of the fusion? If that's so, then explain Goten and Trunks ( who aren't even stronger than Piccolo ) being half of Gotenks' power ( who's above Fat Buu level ). Also it seems you do not know the actual meaning of the word "perhaps", so lemme look it up for you. The meaning of the word "perhaps" is used to express uncertainty or possibility. It never stated he IS equal to SSJ4 nor stronger than, it's only a possibility. And not to mention you're saying SSG is weaker than a SSJ4. Lemme just show how to turn the table against you using your own "fact". In Battle of Gods, Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta would get him stronger but not enough to defeat Beerus. Fusing with could either mean Gogeta OR Vegito and knowing Goku I know for certain he would pick Vegito since that's the stronger fusion method. And he's saying someone like Beerus could BEAT Vegito. Since you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito, SSJ4 STILL wouldn't beat Goku.

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    • Like I said, Zany was pretty much excluded from this topic about a week ago by most participants.

      And quaking is throwing the same unsourced garbage he's been shooting for days.

      At this point, we are playing tennis against a wall. Most people have accepted what you and I have said as true. Let's leave it be to avoid spamming the forums.

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    • Solember wrote: Like I said, Zany was pretty much excluded from this topic about a week ago by most participants.

      And quaking is throwing the same unsourced garbage he's been shooting for days.

      At this point, we are playing tennis against a wall. Most people have accepted what you and I have said as true. Let's leave it be to avoid spamming the forums.

      Invalid sources? Since when are daizenshuu,super exciting guide and gt perfect files not valid sources?

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    • Twizzzler wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

      So you're saying basically both of fusees have a power level of thats half of the fusion? If that's so, then explain Goten and Trunks ( who aren't even stronger than Piccolo ) being half of Gotenks' power ( who's above Fat Buu level ). Also it seems you do not know the actual meaning of the word "perhaps", so lemme look it up for you. The meaning of the word "perhaps" is used to express uncertainty or possibility. It never stated he IS equal to SSJ4 nor stronger than, it's only a possibility. And not to mention you're saying SSG is weaker than a SSJ4. Lemme just show how to turn the table against you using your own "fact". In Battle of Gods, Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta would get him stronger but not enough to defeat Beerus. Fusing with could either mean Gogeta OR Vegito and knowing Goku I know for certain he would pick Vegito since that's the stronger fusion method. And he's saying someone like Beerus could BEAT Vegito. Since you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito, SSJ4 STILL wouldn't beat Goku.

      No i dint say a fusee is A + B, i said its A X B and thats the portara fusion. The fusion dance is for all i know weaker then that(we dont have a confirmed number)

      If u arnt actualy reading someone comments then its best not to reply. I quote "Vegeto is or isnt weaker then ssj4(hence i say its equal to)".

      u say that beerus can beat vegito there for ssj4 vegeto is weaker then goku dbs? Did goku beat beerus if so when? I geas logic went out of the roof right there.


      These are not my opinions these are facts.

      The only thing we can argue opon is how much does ssj3 add ap to beerus and how much t gokus base power is.

      The other 2 points(veheto multiplier,ssj4=to super vegeto) is null.

        Loading editor
    • Zany101 wrote:

      Twizzzler wrote:


      Zany101 wrote:


      Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

      So you're saying basically both of fusees have a power level of thats half of the fusion? If that's so, then explain Goten and Trunks ( who aren't even stronger than Piccolo ) being half of Gotenks' power ( who's above Fat Buu level ). Also it seems you do not know the actual meaning of the word "perhaps", so lemme look it up for you. The meaning of the word "perhaps" is used to express uncertainty or possibility. It never stated he IS equal to SSJ4 nor stronger than, it's only a possibility. And not to mention you're saying SSG is weaker than a SSJ4. Lemme just show how to turn the table against you using your own "fact". In Battle of Gods, Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta would get him stronger but not enough to defeat Beerus. Fusing with could either mean Gogeta OR Vegito and knowing Goku I know for certain he would pick Vegito since that's the stronger fusion method. And he's saying someone like Beerus could BEAT Vegito. Since you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito, SSJ4 STILL wouldn't beat Goku.
      No i dint say a fusee is A + B, i said its A X B and thats the portara fusion. The fusion dance is for all i know weaker then that(we dont have a confirmed number)

      If u arnt actualy reading someone comments then its best not to reply. I quote "Vegeto is or isnt weaker then ssj4(hence i say its equal to)".

      u say that beerus can beat vegito there for ssj4 vegeto is weaker then goku dbs? Did goku beat beerus if so when? I geas logic went out of the roof right there.


      These are not my opinions these are facts.

      The only thing we can argue opon is how much does ssj3 add ap to beerus and how much t gokus base power is.

      The other 2 points(veheto multiplier,ssj4=to super vegeto) is null.

      Ok...did the series or Toriyama say exactly what you're saying is true? No. The answer is no. SSJ4 has never been compared to SSG in the series itself. There have been no official multipliers for either. There has been nothing saying SSJ3 Goku is 8% of Beerus (if you recall, Beerus bluffed his power the entire time he was on Earth. He said that he was using his full power, what, 3 times?) You can argue your opinions. That's fine. But to claim that they are definitive fact when there are no statements saying so is just blind ignorance and head canon.

      Not ONLY that, but you're using base Goku's power level in the FRIEZA SAGA to scale his power to BASE GT GOKU! You're saying that Goku and Vegeta haven't gotten stronger AT ALL since then, even though they've been training for more than a decade.

      I really didn't want to get involved in this. I really didn't. But you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and THAT line was saying basically (key word being basically, since you said we can argue about is SSJ3 or whatever) EVERY ONE OF YOUR OPINIONS is fact. Every. Single. One. I know I'm just banging my head against a wall, but I don't care. I just need to get my opinion out on your points because they are just ridiculous.

        Loading editor
    • Creeperman129 wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      Twizzzler wrote:


      Zany101 wrote:


      Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

      So you're saying basically both of fusees have a power level of thats half of the fusion? If that's so, then explain Goten and Trunks ( who aren't even stronger than Piccolo ) being half of Gotenks' power ( who's above Fat Buu level ). Also it seems you do not know the actual meaning of the word "perhaps", so lemme look it up for you. The meaning of the word "perhaps" is used to express uncertainty or possibility. It never stated he IS equal to SSJ4 nor stronger than, it's only a possibility. And not to mention you're saying SSG is weaker than a SSJ4. Lemme just show how to turn the table against you using your own "fact". In Battle of Gods, Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta would get him stronger but not enough to defeat Beerus. Fusing with could either mean Gogeta OR Vegito and knowing Goku I know for certain he would pick Vegito since that's the stronger fusion method. And he's saying someone like Beerus could BEAT Vegito. Since you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito, SSJ4 STILL wouldn't beat Goku.
      No i dint say a fusee is A + B, i said its A X B and thats the portara fusion. The fusion dance is for all i know weaker then that(we dont have a confirmed number)

      If u arnt actualy reading someone comments then its best not to reply. I quote "Vegeto is or isnt weaker then ssj4(hence i say its equal to)".

      u say that beerus can beat vegito there for ssj4 vegeto is weaker then goku dbs? Did goku beat beerus if so when? I geas logic went out of the roof right there.


      These are not my opinions these are facts.

      The only thing we can argue opon is how much does ssj3 add ap to beerus and how much t gokus base power is.

      The other 2 points(veheto multiplier,ssj4=to super vegeto) is null.

      Ok...did the series or Toriyama say exactly what you're saying is true? No. The answer is no. SSJ4 has never been compared to SSG in the series itself. There have been no official multipliers for either. There has been nothing saying SSJ3 Goku is 8% of Beerus (if you recall, Beerus bluffed his power the entire time he was on Earth. He said that he was using his full power, what, 3 times?) You can argue your opinions. That's fine. But to claim that they are definitive fact when there are no statements saying so is just blind ignorance and head canon.

      Not ONLY that, but you're using base Goku's power level in the FRIEZA SAGA to scale his power to BASE GT GOKU! You're saying that Goku and Vegeta haven't gotten stronger AT ALL since then, even though they've been training for more than a decade.

      I really didn't want to get involved in this. I really didn't. But you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and THAT line was saying basically (key word being basically, since you said we can argue about is SSJ3 or whatever) EVERY ONE OF YOUR OPINIONS is fact. Every. Single. One. I know I'm just banging my head against a wall, but I don't care. I just need to get my opinion out on your points because they are just ridiculous.

      No there arnt official multiplier why u think there are forums?to figure it out.

      We have diffent confirmed information that can be used to discover the unknown. With math

      What does it mather what the base power is? If there is 400x diffrent it wont mather if the base is 10 or 10 milion the result will stil be the power increase of 400x.

      It does mather for vegeto(portara) because the base power will become the multiplier.

      yes 3 milion is a extreme low ball. But that is a level thats confirmed. All the other fan made power levels arnt. I prefer to use facts instead of filling the gaps my self because that will always be influenced by head canons.

      And ssj4 will increase as vegeto does increase. The result i come up was the lowest possable result.

        Loading editor
    • Zany101 wrote:

      Creeperman129 wrote:



      Zany101 wrote:

      Twizzzler wrote:




      Zany101 wrote:




      Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

      So you're saying basically both of fusees have a power level of thats half of the fusion? If that's so, then explain Goten and Trunks ( who aren't even stronger than Piccolo ) being half of Gotenks' power ( who's above Fat Buu level ). Also it seems you do not know the actual meaning of the word "perhaps", so lemme look it up for you. The meaning of the word "perhaps" is used to express uncertainty or possibility. It never stated he IS equal to SSJ4 nor stronger than, it's only a possibility. And not to mention you're saying SSG is weaker than a SSJ4. Lemme just show how to turn the table against you using your own "fact". In Battle of Gods, Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta would get him stronger but not enough to defeat Beerus. Fusing with could either mean Gogeta OR Vegito and knowing Goku I know for certain he would pick Vegito since that's the stronger fusion method. And he's saying someone like Beerus could BEAT Vegito. Since you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito, SSJ4 STILL wouldn't beat Goku.
      No i dint say a fusee is A + B, i said its A X B and thats the portara fusion. The fusion dance is for all i know weaker then that(we dont have a confirmed number)

      If u arnt actualy reading someone comments then its best not to reply. I quote "Vegeto is or isnt weaker then ssj4(hence i say its equal to)".

      u say that beerus can beat vegito there for ssj4 vegeto is weaker then goku dbs? Did goku beat beerus if so when? I geas logic went out of the roof right there.


      These are not my opinions these are facts.

      The only thing we can argue opon is how much does ssj3 add ap to beerus and how much t gokus base power is.

      The other 2 points(veheto multiplier,ssj4=to super vegeto) is null.

      Ok...did the series or Toriyama say exactly what you're saying is true? No. The answer is no. SSJ4 has never been compared to SSG in the series itself. There have been no official multipliers for either. There has been nothing saying SSJ3 Goku is 8% of Beerus (if you recall, Beerus bluffed his power the entire time he was on Earth. He said that he was using his full power, what, 3 times?) You can argue your opinions. That's fine. But to claim that they are definitive fact when there are no statements saying so is just blind ignorance and head canon.

      Not ONLY that, but you're using base Goku's power level in the FRIEZA SAGA to scale his power to BASE GT GOKU! You're saying that Goku and Vegeta haven't gotten stronger AT ALL since then, even though they've been training for more than a decade.

      I really didn't want to get involved in this. I really didn't. But you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and THAT line was saying basically (key word being basically, since you said we can argue about is SSJ3 or whatever) EVERY ONE OF YOUR OPINIONS is fact. Every. Single. One. I know I'm just banging my head against a wall, but I don't care. I just need to get my opinion out on your points because they are just ridiculous.

      No there arnt official multiplier why u think there are forums?to figure it out.

      We have diffent confirmed information that can be used to discover the unknown. With math

      What does it mather what the base power is? If there is 400x diffrent it wont mather if the base is 10 or 10 milion the result will stil be the power increase of 400x.

      It does mather for vegeto(portara) because the base power will become the multiplier.

      yes 3 milion is a extreme low ball. But that is a level thats confirmed. All the other fan made power levels arnt. I prefer to use facts instead of filling the gaps my self because that will always be influenced by head canons.

      And ssj4 will increase as vegeto does increase. The result i come up was the lowest possable result.

      The whole point of me saying that there were no official multipliers was to disprove you saying "These are not my opinions these are facts." which implied that your multipliers are definitive. 

      Fine, I get your point with the 3,000,000 now.

      But again, the Toriyama God Scale is outdated. Right above or below in that SAME interview, Toriyama says he doesn't know where he's going to take the series, which says he had no plans of Dragon Ball Super at the time of that interview. That scale applies to the movie, yes, but the movie and the series are COMPLETELY separate entities from one another. Did Bulma's party happen on a boat in the movie? Did Beerus "give" a percentage in the movie (as it's pretty implied that he was bluffing immensely, since he's still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta in th series)? Did Goku and Beerus almost blow up the universe in the movie? All of these and more are answered with a resounding no. The two cannot be put together as one entity. 

      Based on your own logic, SSG Goku is 60%, and SSB is 10X that. That would mean SSB Goku is 6X stronger than Beerus at least. Does that make sense? At all? No. It does not.

        Loading editor
    • Creeperman129 wrote:

      Zany101 wrote:

      Creeperman129 wrote: SSJ4 Vegito doesn't even exist lmao. And I basically used what you said about SSJ4 = Vegito against you. Did you bother to read it or are you just too ignorant to understand what I'm trying to say here. And I never stated that Goku managed to defeat Beerus, I never even mentioned that. Goku just STATED fusing with Vegeta still wouldn't be able to compete with Beerus and SSG was a better option. Remember in the Universe 6 Saga when Goku used SSB Kaioken and Beerus literally started pissing his pants BEFORE Goku increased the multiplier to up to 10? And you're LOWBALLING it, saying SSB x 10 is WEAKER than SSJ4 which is AROUND 20%-40% logically speaking? Get your crappy logic out of here, please. This is just disgusting how much crap GT fans nowadays come up to make their favorite characters sound stranger than Super characters. You're literally saying Vegito from the Buu Saga is equal to SSJ4 and now you're talking about SSJ4 Vegito which isn't even REAL. Get that crap out of here and use stuff from the actual show, not from fan made crap. I might as well bring out SSB4 Vegito w/ Kaioken x 10 if we're bringing fan-made stuff in here now.


      Zany101 wrote:

      Twizzzler wrote:




      Zany101 wrote:




      Solember wrote: Ok, so everyone but Zany has a reasonable argument. I think we all agree that SSJB is 10x SSJG, but we don't have an absolute multiplier established to determine the multiplier of SSJG. I think we can agree that SSJG is at least half of a universe buster due to the Beerus fight.

      As for SSJ4, let's try to rationalize our math. The 500 times base (1.25 SSJ3) crowd all have sources for their claim, myself included. If the naysayers can't give sources, then this argument should conclude at that.

      Wait what?

      Dint u see all those sources? So we are just going to happly ignore facts? Because it doesnt fit your plans? You guys are unbelievable.

      Here my source :

      1. Being the pprtara fusion.

      2. Secondly is the claim that ssj4 = super vegeto.

      3. Beerus quote

      • "it has been a while since someone has forced me to use one-tenth of my power"

      4. Akra statmemt about ssg

      • SSG Goku = 6, Beerus = 10, Whis = 15

      5. Goku power level dbz frieza saga.

      • 3,000,000

      Math :

      Super vegetto :

      • 3,000,000 x 3,000,000 x 50(ssj) = 450,000,000,000,000

      Goku gt base form

      • 3,000,000 x 400(ssj3) = 1,200,000,000

      Ssj4

      • 450,000,000,000,000 ÷ 1,200,000,000 = 375,000

      Ssg

      • 60%

      Ssj2 vegeta rage vs beerus

      • 9%

      Ssj3 goku vs beerus

      • 8%

      Ssg multiplier

      • 60% ÷ 8% = 7.5 400 x 7.5 = 3,000

      Ssb multiplier

      • 3,000 x 10 = 30,000

      Ssb kaioken x 10

      • 30,000 x 10 = 300,000

      The transformation multipliers

      • ssg = 3,000
      • Ssb = 30,000
      • ssj4 = 375,000

      My reasoning behind ssj3 8%

      • ssj2 is inherently 4x weaker then ssj3. Vegeta pushed beerus to use 10% making vegeta 9% compared to beerus. Vegeta at that point was said to be stronger then ssj3 goku. I put ssj3 goku at 8% so that there is a 10% difference between goku and vegeta. Why 10% diffence between the 2? Because vegeta had to become already 300x stronger to equal a ssj3. 10% of a ssj3 is 40(400 ÷ 100 x 10) in total vegeta got 440 x stronger from the rage wich inthink is a very fitting number. If i gets any higher then it renders all transformations point less(since rage will give u more strenght) also it would contradict whit previouse events in the franchise. Ime goku vs frieza and gohan vs cel. Both of them got extremely angry and both of them dint get a boost out of it they git a transformation from it(ssj1 and ssj2).

      Its incredibly entertaining that u said that everyone has a valid reasoning except me (zany). Then u proceed in saying that ssj4 = 1.5 ssj3. While in gt perfect files its said that ssj4 = super vegeto(i sourced it)

      Once again u are trowing away the facts(remember canon debate?) But yes i totaly agree im the one whit invalid reasoning. LMAO grow up bro.

      So you're saying basically both of fusees have a power level of thats half of the fusion? If that's so, then explain Goten and Trunks ( who aren't even stronger than Piccolo ) being half of Gotenks' power ( who's above Fat Buu level ). Also it seems you do not know the actual meaning of the word "perhaps", so lemme look it up for you. The meaning of the word "perhaps" is used to express uncertainty or possibility. It never stated he IS equal to SSJ4 nor stronger than, it's only a possibility. And not to mention you're saying SSG is weaker than a SSJ4. Lemme just show how to turn the table against you using your own "fact". In Battle of Gods, Goku stated that fusing with Vegeta would get him stronger but not enough to defeat Beerus. Fusing with could either mean Gogeta OR Vegito and knowing Goku I know for certain he would pick Vegito since that's the stronger fusion method. And he's saying someone like Beerus could BEAT Vegito. Since you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito, SSJ4 STILL wouldn't beat Goku.
      No i dint say a fusee is A + B, i said its A X B and thats the portara fusion. The fusion dance is for all i know weaker then that(we dont have a confirmed number)

      If u arnt actualy reading someone comments then its best not to reply. I quote "Vegeto is or isnt weaker then ssj4(hence i say its equal to)".

      u say that beerus can beat vegito there for ssj4 vegeto is weaker then goku dbs? Did goku beat beerus if so when? I geas logic went out of the roof right there.


      These are not my opinions these are facts.

      The only thing we can argue opon is how much does ssj3 add ap to beerus and how much t gokus base power is.

      The other 2 points(veheto multiplier,ssj4=to super vegeto) is null.

      Ok...did the series or Toriyama say exactly what you're saying is true? No. The answer is no. SSJ4 has never been compared to SSG in the series itself. There have been no official multipliers for either. There has been nothing saying SSJ3 Goku is 8% of Beerus (if you recall, Beerus bluffed his power the entire time he was on Earth. He said that he was using his full power, what, 3 times?) You can argue your opinions. That's fine. But to claim that they are definitive fact when there are no statements saying so is just blind ignorance and head canon.

      Not ONLY that, but you're using base Goku's power level in the FRIEZA SAGA to scale his power to BASE GT GOKU! You're saying that Goku and Vegeta haven't gotten stronger AT ALL since then, even though they've been training for more than a decade.

      I really didn't want to get involved in this. I really didn't. But you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and THAT line was saying basically (key word being basically, since you said we can argue about is SSJ3 or whatever) EVERY ONE OF YOUR OPINIONS is fact. Every. Single. One. I know I'm just banging my head against a wall, but I don't care. I just need to get my opinion out on your points because they are just ridiculous.

      No there arnt official multiplier why u think there are forums?to figure it out.

      We have diffent confirmed information that can be used to discover the unknown. With math

      What does it mather what the base power is? If there is 400x diffrent it wont mather if the base is 10 or 10 milion the result will stil be the power increase of 400x.

      It does mather for vegeto(portara) because the base power will become the multiplier.

      yes 3 milion is a extreme low ball. But that is a level thats confirmed. All the other fan made power levels arnt. I prefer to use facts instead of filling the gaps my self because that will always be influenced by head canons.

      And ssj4 will increase as vegeto does increase. The result i come up was the lowest possable result.

      The whole point of me saying that there were no official multipliers was to disprove you saying "These are not my opinions these are facts." which implied that your multipliers are definitive. 

      Fine, I get your point with the 3,000,000 now.

      But again, the Toriyama God Scale is outdated. Right above or below in that SAME interview, Toriyama says he doesn't know where he's going to take the series, which says he had no plans of Dragon Ball Super at the time of that interview. That scale applies to the movie, yes, but the movie and the series are COMPLETELY separate entities from one another. Did Bulma's party happen on a boat in the movie? Did Beerus "give" a percentage in the movie (as it's pretty implied that he was bluffing immensely, since he's still stronger than SSB Goku and Vegeta in th series)? Did Goku and Beerus almost blow up the universe in the movie? All of these and more are answered with a resounding no. The two cannot be put together as one entity. 

      Based on your own logic, SSG Goku is 60%, and SSB is 10X that. That would mean SSB Goku is 6X stronger than Beerus at least. Does that make sense? At all? No. It does not.

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    • wut

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    • The scale is for both. in the movie it wasnt mentioned in the manga and anime it is. Therefor valid. Was he bluffing? there is no reason to believe that after all he would have killed them at the end. Therefor no reason for him to lei about it.

      Yes beerus from bog arc is 6 x weaker then ssb. Is he currently weaker then ssb? No he isnt. Does that make sence? it does if u rember that beerus is under training whit whiz. Or are inly goku and vegeta capable to get strongrr with whiz his training?

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    • Zany101 wrote:
      The scale is for both. in the movie it wasnt mentioned in the manga and anime it is. Therefor valid. Was he bluffing? there is no reason to believe that after all he would have killed them at the end. Therefor no reason for him to lei about it.

      Yes beerus from bog arc is 6 x weaker then ssb. Is he currently weaker then ssb? No he isnt. Does that make sence? it does if u rember that beerus is under training whit whiz. Or are inly goku and vegeta capable to get strongrr with whiz his training?

      No. It has never been stated in the manga or the anime. Ever. Goku was never sated to be 60% of Beerus in the anime or manga. Only in that outdated interview. 

      He actually does have a reason to lie. To make it seem like they actually have a chance against him. To raise their hopes only to crush them.

      So even though Champa is lazy and is too lazy to train is still near equal to his brother who got 6X stronger in a single arc even though that wasn't stated at all. Beerus hasn't been shown to train to that extent. There's also the fact that Beerus was only surprised at SSBX10 Goku, and didn't actually think that Goku could beat him. That would mean...that Beerus...GOT 60X STRONGER, when that hasn't been implied at all. Beerus is lazy. He haas been sleeping and eating food and nothing has said he has been training that much. That is pure head canon.

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    • Ooh u ment the 60% line. Yea that hasnt been mentioned inside the show.

      Beerus saying that he still can beat goku is a stretch it was clearly depicted that he was very un conformable on the sight of ssbkkx10.

      Look at his face that doesn't look like some one thats confident.


      regardless of what u think ssg was. Im geasing that u think sssg was less then 60%(wich means that sssg multiplier is lower) one thing is for sure that ssg is more thebn 9% and lesser then 100%(vegeta forched beerus to use 10%)

      Same goose as i said previously. I prefer that 60% line that akira said then if i have to fill in the gaps my self. Because i can say ssg was 99% of beerus while u might say its 10%. Wich wont get us any where.

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    • Zany101 wrote:
      Ooh u ment the 60% line.

      Yea that hasnt been mentioned inside the show.

      Beerus saying that he still can beat goku is a stretch it was clearly depicted that he was very un conformable on the sight of ssbkkx10.

      Look at his face that doesn't look like some one thats confident.


      regardless of what u think ssg was. Im geasing that u think sssg was less then 60%(wich means that sssg multiplier is lower) one thing is for sure that ssg is more thebn 9% and lesser then 100%(vegeta forched beerus to use 10%)

      Same goose as i said previously. I prefer that 60% line that akira said then if i have to fill in the gaps my self. Because i can say ssg was 99% of beerus while u might say its 10%. Wich wont get us any where.

      It may not even be more than 10%, as I've said before with the bluff. But I'm glad we've reached a point where we aren't attacking each other insanely and can actually move on with our opinions.

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    • Looks like my comment didn't appear. I stated that you're using a fan made character when you said Beerus couldn't defeat SSJ4 Vegito, who hasn't even been mentioned or appeared in any game, movie or show. That's like pulling Mystic SSJB4 Gogito w/ Kaioken x20 even though he hasn't even appeared or been mentioned, only created by fans. I'm using your own words against you, since you said SSJ4 = Vegito. When they were referring to Vegito they meant BUU SAGA Vegito, not Future Trunks Saga Vegito, who can probably solo all of GT in his base form. After Beerus defeated Goku, Goku said fusing with Vegeta would make him stronger but not strong enough to beat Beerus. That's implying neither Vegito nor Gogeta could defeat Beerus. If you're saying SSJ4 = Vegito > SSG then holy crap you're not the brightest then. Does that even make sense to you? Vegito from the Buu Saga beating SSG? No it doesn't. Also how the hell can you say Beerus from the BoG arc is weaker than SSB from RoF? Beerus was ASLEEP when Goku and Vegeta were training and achieved SSB. Then you have to add the fact that Golden Frieza who is STRONGER than SSB started pissing himself when he saw Beerus. Now you mention has Goku ever defeated Beerus well no he hasn't. But in the Universe 6 Saga, when Goku went SSB Kaioken, Beerus started pissing his pants before Goku increased the multiplier. How the hell are you going to tell me that SSJ4 which is only 1.25 x SSJ3 is stronger than SSB x10 Kaioken. GT fans need to get it through their head that Goku and Vegeta from GT aren't anything compared to their Super counterparts.

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    • Lets see what we have goong on so far.

      • ssg = ssj3 precentages ÷ ssg precentages.
      • saiyan beyond god = ssg ÷ ssj
      • ssb = 10 x ssg
      • ssj4 = GokuGT base power ÷ super vegetto
      • Super vegetto = A battle power x B battle power x ssj


      I geas we have to argue about ssj3 prentages and ssg precentages so that we have all the multipliers of DBS.

      After we should argue about how strong goku and vegeta where at the end of dbz and how strong goku gt base power is compared to dbz.

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    • Beerus and Whis are meant to be levels that Goku and Vegeta will never reach.

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    • That quote is a misdirect, methinks.

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    • It's on kaizeshuu.

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    • Toriyama said it. But I believe it is a misdirect. Kinda like what Joss Whedon does.

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    • Solember wrote:
      Toriyama said it. But I believe it is a misdirect. Kinda like what Nose Whedon does.

      It wasn't a misdirect. He simply had no idea that he was even going to make Dragon Ball Super. He says in the same interview he has no future plans for Dragon Ball. Obviously, his thoughts have changed.

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    • He said the quote post Super

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    • The God Scale? No, that was BoG era.Oh wait. I see. Sorry, misunderstanding.

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    • Well according to toriyama. It was Dragonball Evolution that got him back into dragon ball seeing how atrocius it was. Hollywood refused to listen to toriyama when he suggested stuff for the movie.

      That bad movie is the reason we got battle of gods. which then led to a sequel and then a new anime series.

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    • A FANDOM user
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