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  • I know i'm not the only one that noticed that GT and Super both start off with their first major enemy being an intergalactic muscle for hire.

    Introducing a penultimate form of the dragon balls,

    A new Super Saiyan form fighting with dieties? 

    One that was powered up by the secondary characters for the main fight?

    An arc where the main enemy steals Vegeta's power to fight Goku? Which I honestly think was meant to overshadow the arc after it where a main character gets their body stolen, only for the villain to power up into a new and different transformation in their body.

    Of course topping it off with the main characters fusing in the series' new form but the time limit running out before they could kill the big bad. Weird thing to do since they decided to go with potara specifically here.


    GT is god tier amazing cell animation show. Super is just a more flandarized fanservicy version of it that can't solo.

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    • If this is a joke it's not a very funny one. And if you're serious it's even worse.

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    • Nice argument.

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    • GTapologist wrote: Nice argument.

      I wasn't trying to make an argument.

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    • Thank Kami, Someone finally gets it! Super is nothing but a subpar, uninspired, copy-and-paste farce that is unworthy to bear the "Dragon Ball" name. Oh, and you forgot the fact that Super featured a fighter that (like Pikkon) faced Goku with a new technique that Goku had to figure out to beat and (like with Pikkon) used a Kaio-Ken/SSJ form combo. Plus the "multiverse" tournament arc bore a strong resemblence to the DBZ anime filler Otherworld tournament arc (and not just because of the two situations I mentioned)

      RIP Dragon Ball November 20th, 1984-November 19th, 1997

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    • I have never associated GT and amazing in the same sentence.

      Super may be heavily flawed, and at times just outright terrible. But I'll still take it over GT in a heartbeat, which was nothing but frustration and making me want to give up on DB completely.

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    • GT isn't THAT bad, but Subpar is still superior in most respects. 

      Heck, if not for the incredibly bad ending to the Future Trunks / Goku Black saga I wouldn't be complaining quite as much. 

      Subpar rips off of itself and bad fan ideas much more than it reuses GT ideas, frankly. 

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    • I've never really liked GT not only because it is flawed and it isn't Toriyama's work. Super is not perfect but I like it because it is different than the original Dragon Ball series in regards to less violence and more comedy. In a scale of 1 to 10, I would give Dragon Ball a 2, DBZ a 7.5, Super an 8.5, and GT a 2.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      I know i'm not the only one that noticed that GT and Super both start off with their first major enemy being an intergalactic muscle for hire.

      Introducing a penultimate form of the dragon balls,

      A new Super Saiyan form fighting with dieties? 

      One that was powered up by the secondary characters for the main fight?

      An arc where the main enemy steals Vegeta's power to fight Goku? Which I honestly think was meant to overshadow the arc after it where a main character gets their body stolen, only for the villain to power up into a new and different transformation in their body.

      Of course topping it off with the main characters fusing in the series' new form but the time limit running out before they could kill the big bad. Weird thing to do since they decided to go with potara specifically here.


      GT is god tier amazing cell animation show. Super is just a more flandarized fanservicy version of it that can't solo.

      All of these points are akin to saying Freeza is a carbon copy of King Piccolo because he's a villain that conquered a large area, killed the main character's friends, was barely beaten by the main character, and came back later.

      Also, Toei can't exactly plagiarize themselves. It's like saying a painting that has some similarities to another painting by the same author is a rip-off.

      I wouldn't say a forest by Bob Ross is just a flawed copy of another forest by Bob Ross.

      Some minor details might be the same, but the characters, events, and places around them are vastly different.

      By the logic of the time limit running out being a rip-off and stuff, shouldn't you be more pissed about GT ripping off the Gotenks fight?

      Also, the Shadow Dragons aren't exactly gods, and the power boost granted to SS4 Goku to fight baby could be said to be a rip-off of every single time they send their power into one person ever.

      Not like them giving Goku their power gave Goku a new transformation, did it?

      Baby didn't exactly steal Vegeta's body so he could merge with himself to Destroy All Humans.

      There are similarities, sure. But it isn't like they lifted entire arcs and characters wholesale from previous material.

      Except for the Kaio-ken thing, but who cares? That's something that should've happened anyways.

      Also, having a tournament and calling it a rip-off when the show has had like seven of these things so far is just a boring argument. I guess I could call the Cell Games the work of a hack who is unoriginal and grasping at straws cuz he did a World Martial Arts Tournament already, or I could see how it is different from previous ones because of a few key things.

      The Multiverse one, for example, isn't a Tournament. It's a battle royale with the prize money being "You get to exist"

      I don't remember any of those things being in the Otherworld Tournament.

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    • @Stryzzar I feel the opposite. Super was what made me almost give up DB as a whole. I'm currently reading the Super manga (which is somewhat of an improvement) because the anime was so utterly deplorable. I only have 2 1/2 issues with GT's in general:

      1. Black Star DB saga

      2. Super 17 saga

      1/2. Pre-Nova Shenron Shadow Dragon saga. Nova was a bada**, and you know it; Merged/Fused Zamasu is a little crybaby b*tch of a bad fanfic-esque "villain" (and I use that term lightly)

      @Lilyxflower Super is no less flawed than GT. Nothing but uninspired palatte swaps for "new" forms and (much like GT) sidelining the other Z-fighters power-wise (and plot-wise) in exchange for glorifying the almighty blue-hair-dyed Goku and Vegeta. Beerus and Whis are also two of the biggest eyesores in DB history. I'd take Baby or even Broly over those two imbiciles any day of all of eternity.

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    • Pseudo Super Saiyan Jake wrote:
      @Stryzzar I feel the opposite. Super was what made me almost give up DB as a whole. I'm currently reading the Super manga (which is somewhat of an improvement) because the anime was so utterly deplorable. I only have 2 1/2 issues with GT's in general:

      1. Black Star DB saga

      2. Super 17 saga

      1/2. Pre-Nova Shenron Shadow Dragon saga. Nova was a bada**, and you know it; Merged/Fused Zamasu is a little crybaby b*tch of a bad fanfic-esque "villain" (and I use that term lightly)

      @Lilyxflower Super is no less flawed than GT. Nothing but uninspired palatte swaps for "new" forms and (much like GT) sidelining the other Z-fighters power-wise (and sometimes plot-wise) in exchange for glorifying the almighty blue-hair-dyed Goku and Vegeta. Beerus and Whis are also two of the biggest eyesores in DB history. I'd take Baby or even Broly over those two imbiciles any day of all of eternity.

      You have issues with almost the entirety of GT, and the side characters are getting more focus in Super than they have in decades.

      For example, in GT, Krillin's only contribution was to die.

      In Super, on the other hand, Krillin is finally back to being a fighter.

      Yamcha didn't even show up for GT from what I can remember.

      In Super, on the other hand, he showed us just how good of a baseball player he is and how his story turned out.

      Nova was also in GT for such a small amount of time it isn't even funny, so if you have issues with all parts of the show's 3 sagas that don't include him, then you have issues with almost the entire show itself.

      And if you're honestly complaining about how Goku and Vegeta are using a new transformation and that its to the detriment of other characters to glorify said powerup, I'll direct you to the SS4 Goku show, also known as Dragon Ball GT

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    • Some minor details might be the same, but the characters, events, and places around them are vastly different.

      By the logic of the time limit running out being a rip-off and stuff, shouldn't you be more pissed about GT ripping off the Gotenks fight?

      Also, the Shadow Dragons aren't exactly gods, and the power boost granted to SS4 Goku to fight baby could be said to be a rip-off of every single time they send their power into one person ever.

      Not like them giving Goku their power gave Goku a new transformation, did it?

      Baby didn't exactly steal Vegeta's body so he could merge with himself to Destroy All Humans.



      Metamoran fusion is a consistant thing that exists in the show. It was demonstrated as powerful fusion, but with a time limit. Potara's difference was being eternal. And in it's fight they only unfused when they had to save people from inside buu. 

      Gogeta's and Vegito's roles in GT and Super are nearly idential besides who finishes off the enemy afterwards. 

      I definitely defy saying the Shadow Dragons aren't gods. Shenron as a whole is considered a lesser god than Beerus in Super, to the point of being afraid of him. But in GT it could be said at least Omega was on-par with Beerus in terms of supposed strength.

      Yes it did, Super Full Power Saiyan 4. Though GT /is/ different since that form is just an augmentation instead of a new form. 

      And, no he stole Vegeta's body to gain power from the Tuffles to Destroy All Saiyans, completely different I see. 

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    • Kaestal wrote:
      Pseudo Super Saiyan Jake wrote:
      @Stryzzar I feel the opposite. Super was what made me almost give up DB as a whole. I'm currently reading the Super manga (which is somewhat of an improvement) because the anime was so utterly deplorable. I only have 2 1/2 issues with GT's in general:

      1. Black Star DB saga

      2. Super 17 saga

      1/2. Pre-Nova Shenron Shadow Dragon saga. Nova was a bada**, and you know it; Merged/Fused Zamasu is a little crybaby b*tch of a bad fanfic-esque "villain" (and I use that term lightly)

      @Lilyxflower Super is no less flawed than GT. Nothing but uninspired palatte swaps for "new" forms and (much like GT) sidelining the other Z-fighters power-wise (and sometimes plot-wise) in exchange for glorifying the almighty blue-hair-dyed Goku and Vegeta. Beerus and Whis are also two of the biggest eyesores in DB history. I'd take Baby or even Broly over those two imbiciles any day of all of eternity.

      You have issues with almost the entirety of GT, and the side characters are getting more focus in Super than they have in decades.

      For example, in GT, Krillin's only contribution was to die.

      In Super, on the other hand, Krillin is finally back to being a fighter.

      Yamcha didn't even show up for GT from what I can remember.

      In Super, on the other hand, he showed us just how good of a baseball player he is and how his story turned out.

      Nova was also in GT for such a small amount of time it isn't even funny, so if you have issues with all parts of the show's 3 sagas that don't include him, then you have issues with almost the entire show itself.

      And if you're honestly complaining about how Goku and Vegeta are using a new transformation and that its to the detriment of other characters to glorify said powerup, I'll direct you to the SS4 Goku show, also known as Dragon Ball GT

      Yes, everyone's talked about GT's problems with other character representation. It's a fair complaint that they were too scared to move away from Goku for a second. 

      Though I guess if GT had all the budget to give each character two episodes of development to build up one fight they'd all be in, it would. 


      I just like it and it's seamlessly ripped off ideas. 

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    • So he possessed Vegeta's body to kill 4 people, such a similar goal to killing all people in all universes. And hell, he didn't actually kill them at all, he only tried to kill Goku. Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Bulla were totally fine with being allowed to live.

      Guess he was only trying to kill Full-Saiyans.

      His plan was entirely different from Zamasu's after getting a stronger body, his was to rule this new planet. Zamasu's was..... dunno what he was gonna do after killing all mortals.

      Omega Shenron and any variant of Shenron being a god is like saying Dende is a god. Sure, they can be called that and they do have some interesting powers, but saying they're like the Supreme Kai or Gods of Destruction is just wrong.

      Considering how Omega Shenron was apparently supposed to be a Galaxy Destroyer while SSG Goku/70% Beerus clashing was on the verge of destroying the universe.....

      So the fusion isn't eternal, and we're going with what amounts to stomach acid being a good explanation for why a permanent fusion split.

      And they did say the fusion was permanent.

      For Supreme Kais.

      Why would any of the characters in DBZ know otherwise? Not like the only other example wasn't a Supreme Kai and the Elder Kai fused with another magic being, not a mortal, or they just opened up a plot hole in the Manga version.

      Super Full Power Saiyan 4 is the exact same type of boost as the one given to Goku so he could defeat Broly, not a form at all, just giving someone some extra power. If they want to say it's a version of the form, then that's just saying "You can play as this transformation when it was boosted by the power of others!"

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      GT is god tier amazing cell animation show. Super is just a more flandarized fanservicy version of it that can't solo.

      Yeah, the GT in DBGT stands for "Goku Time" while S in DBS stands for "S**t"

      GT was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than S

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    • GTapologist wrote:

      I just like it and it's seamlessly ripped off ideas. 

      How can a creator rip themselves off?

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    • Kaestal wrote:

      His plan was entirely different from Zamasu's after getting a stronger body, his was to rule this new planet. Zamasu's was..... dunno what he was gonna do after killing all mortals.

      Zamasu's plan is actually perfectly viable if you get into the intricacies of DB-Verse. He wants to kill mortals, erase divine mistakes and reign as the supreme deity. With Kaioshins and Gods of Destruction gone and all angels deactivated, he is technically the sole Kaioshin, so he goes off killing mortals.


      But Kaioshins do not reproduce, they grow from fruits of a tree. As an immortal, all he has to do is wait for the new batch of Kaioshins to be ready then teach them his ideals, way of thinking and mold them however he likes.


      Compare with Baby who tries to take revenge by essentially reinforcing the strongest Saiyan he can find into being even stronger, taking over his life and allies/friends/family then crafting a new planet through the Black Star Dragon Balls even though he has a perfectly habitable planet at hand. 

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    • That's great, entirely your theory on what Zamasu's plan was after he killed all mortals though.

      For all we know, after getting that part done, he could've just dusted his hands off and said "My work is done" and then not done anything.

      Hell, he could've destroyed the Kaioshin tree cuz he views only himself worthy of being a god.

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    • Pseudo Super Saiyan Jake wrote:

      @Stryzzar I feel the opposite. Super was what made me almost give up DB as a whole. I'm currently reading the Super manga (which is somewhat of an improvement) because the anime was so utterly deplorable. I only have 2 1/2 issues with GT's in general:

      1. Black Star DB saga

      2. Super 17 saga

      1/2. Pre-Nova Shenron Shadow Dragon saga. Nova was a bada**, and you know it; Merged/Fused Zamasu is a little crybaby b*tch of a bad fanfic-esque "villain" (and I use that term lightly)

      @Lilyxflower Super is no less flawed than GT. Nothing but uninspired palatte swaps for "new" forms and (much like GT) sidelining the other Z-fighters power-wise (and plot-wise) in exchange for glorifying the almighty blue-hair-dyed Goku and Vegeta. Beerus and Whis are also two of the biggest eyesores in DB history. I'd take Baby or even Broly over those two imbiciles any day of all of eternity.

      I'll agree the manga is better. The anime feels like beta before they receive feedback and Toyotaro improves what people hated.

      The only GT Saga that was alright was the Baby Saga. Every other Saga sucked, especially Black Star Saga which I didn't want to watch after episode 2.

      Nuova Shenron was the one ripe tomato in a rotten bag. The Shadow Dragons idea was very poorly executed and they were better off not doing it all.

      You can say Super took ideas from GT, but GT never did them well to begin with. Besides GT "plagiarized" far worse since Super 17 was a complete rehash of Fusion Reborn, with even the same characters being used. About the only difference was the absence of Gogeta.

      GT was far more guilty of sidelining the heroes than Super ever was. While not everyone in Super fights, they take time to show what the non-fighting heroes do in their downtime. The entirety of GT was "The Goku and Pan" show, without any breather episodes focusing on the other characters lives. And sidelining is no longer an issue with the Universe Survival Arc where nearly everyone; strong and weak, is involved in the main plot and action, aside from Yamcha.

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    • Though Yamcha did already beat a God of Destruction.

      Nobody else in the cast can say the have done that when challenged by someone like that.

      Yamcha for King of All, Age 780.

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    • Kaestal wrote:

      Nobody else in the cast can say the have done that when challenged by someone like that.

      Farmer with Shotgun can!

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Nice argument.

      The topic doesn't deserve one.

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    • Right now when I compare both series I just look at what GT did to Frieza and is unspeakable. Super gave him a new arc, a new transformation and now they did the impossible by making him team up with Goku, his worst enemy.

      GT, apart from the disgusting animation, not only did not increased his strenght one bit but also gave him a new technique which sucks you into the depths of hell where a weird old lady tickles you and frozes you forever? I'm out of words.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Right now when I compare both series I just look at what GT did to Frieza and is unspeakable. Super gave him a new arc, a new transformation and now they did the impossible by making him team up with Goku, his worst enemy.

      GT, apart from the disgusting animation, not only did not increased his strenght one bit but also gave him a new technique which sucks you into the depths of hell where a weird old lady tickles you and frozes you forever? I'm out of words.

      Thanks, I love the Hell's Buster, how cool that two of the baddest villains developed such a strong technique together? 

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    • i don't think you can use "strong" or "baddest" when talking about GT cell or frieza. They're so lame goku (as a kid) could deflect a kamehameha shot from cell by twirling a staff. Does that sound like a very "strong" thing that one of "baddest" villains did in GT?

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    • I agree, GT Frieza and Cell were so weak it was funny. Goku didn't even need to go Super Saiyan to beat them. Golden Frieza was giving him the badass upgrade he deserved.

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    • That sounds like something Goku did, with the way you phrased it. 


      See the thing is, GT Goku in his base is stated to be around the level of ssj3 Buu arc Goku. It makes sense he dominated the fight so well. If they weren't just build up to the /real/ enemy of that fight, they probably could have gotten more screentime.

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    • That doesn't change the fact that two of the most iconic villains were reduced to gag fodder. If Goku gets strong, villains he faces should get stronger too.

      Also, GT Kid Goku is far too overpowered. He almost never seems to lose a fight, having a higher success rate than SSJ4 Goku.

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    • And let's not forget the defeats in both series.

      In Resurrection F, it took SSB Goku with a god kamehameha to kill Frieza which it look fantastic but I must say the film version nailed it more than the anime.

      Base Kid Goku not only humbled both Frieza and Perfect Cell at the same time but he defeats them by freezing them with that stupid machine from the old woman? not to mention they say they cannot be killed because they're already dead. So what happened to the earlier statement about if they die while they're spirits, they cease to exist?

      Oh I remember, it's GT, that's all I need to know.

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    • With Goku being a kid while everyone's older than him, I just couldn't take a single episode with him seriously. The only episode that felt like Dragon Ball was when Baby invaded the Earth, because Kid Goku wasn't there to ruin it, as well as giving focus to everyone who wasn't named Goku and Pan.

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    • Final Chidori
      Final Chidori removed this reply because:
      spam
      04:47, June 29, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Skar800 wrote:
      And let's not forget the defeats in both series.

      In Resurrection F, it took SSB Goku with a god kamehameha to kill Frieza which it look fantastic but I must say the film version nailed it more than the anime.

      Base Kid Goku not only humbled both Frieza and Perfect Cell at the same time but he defeats them by freezing them with that stupid machine from the old woman? not to mention they say they cannot be killed because they're already dead. So what happened to the earlier statement about if they die while they're spirits, they cease to exist?

      Oh I remember, it's GT, that's all I need to know.



      GT bothered to create a new enemy instead of resuing an old villain for an old arc except again, whoops. And please don't try to act like Super 17 is the same as the 17 from the Cell saga.


      That was super clever how Goku turned their trap on them right? I don't know where you're pulling that supposed statement from. Please cite it.

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    • Oh, a character truning an enemies attack against them, like Goku with frieza on namek, or Gohan with garlic jr.

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    • GTapologist wrote:

      GT bothered to create a new enemy instead of resuing an old villain for an old arc except again, whoops. And please don't try to act like Super 17 is the same as the 17 from the Cell saga.


      That was super clever how Goku turned their trap on them right? I don't know where you're pulling that supposed statement from. Please cite it.

      Pretty much everything after Golden Frieza has been original characters. Not all of them have been good, but to say Super copies everything is just plain wrong. Zamasu is the most unique Dragon Ball villain to ever appear.

      Super 17 is a combination of Androids, fusion, and energy absorption, all rehashed ideas that have appeared before. You can't deny villains escaping from hell is lifted straight out of Fusion Reborn.

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    • I didn't say it copied everyting. What it did copy though can't solo with what it was from GT. 


      Zamasu is really unique though, in his plan to do eventually what Super Buu did in one episode. Kill all the humans. 


      The idea is similar with Super 17 and Fusion Reborn, but the execution is different enough, including not having most of the same villains that came back in Fusion Reborn, instead opting this time for Dragon Ball enemies and Rilldo. 


      Though Super 17 himself used ideas from past series, it's not like he's a 1 to 1 of Cell or something like Black is to Baby Vegeta.

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    • Super Buu kills for shits and giggles. Zamasu is a visionary villain who views humans as a mistake and thinks he's doing what is right in his own distorted way. Every villain after Frieza had the end goal of killing the entire population of Earth.

      Only difference was they added Cell and removed Gogeta. Fusion Reborn did it way better as characters aside from Goku were useful and the villain was actually intimidating.

      Black isn't remotely like Baby Vegeta. If you make that comparison you haven't seen the Future Trunks Saga. Baby is a parasite who wants revenge on the Saiyans for wronging his species. Black/Zamasu was jealous of Goku's power and viewed him as unworthy of having such power so stole his body. Also we dont even know who or what Black is until very late, while Baby we knew from the start.

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    • He's edgier than anything from GT, I'll give him that. Including the rap.


      Fusion Reborn did it better because it had the money of a feature length film, dumbnuts. Though comparing the enemies and calling the stronger enemy with more develeopment from the anime less intimidating makes me think you didn't see the Super 17 arc.


      Yes I know, they have different goals, and they're introduced in different ways. 

      They're both evil guys that stole a Protagonist's body and powered up into an intensely marketable form by combining their power with "Saiyan power"


      Only Golden Great Ape Baby was slightly cooler than Fused Zamasu becoming the universe.

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    • Super 17 wasn't intimidating at all because he was battling only the 'background'. Vegeta could stand up to him for a couple minutes of screentime and everyone else was assured to be knocked on their butts the moment they appeared. When Goku himself makes an appearance it is clear 17's going to be defeated because GT was just THAT banal about how things played out. 


      Janemba displayed various powers and weaknesses battling both Goku SSJ3 and Vegeta SSJ2 and yet defeated both. 

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    • It's not like Super doesn't do the same thing with him. They've just added extra steps between when the fight starting, and Goku getting serious and becoming the actual main character. 


      And wasn't he just Buu without speech before transforming? And then he was completely unstoppable except saying mean things to him? 


      The funny thing is the lack of relevance that movie would've had if Vegeta pulled out the tiers of insults he used on Magetta. 

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    • GTapologist wrote:

      That was super clever how Goku turned their trap on them right? I don't know where you're pulling that supposed statement from. Please cite it.

      Dragon Ball Z Episode 278: True Saiyans Fight Alone.

      Just as Kid Buu was about to blown up Grand Kai's Planet, Goku says "That's not good, Krillin and Yamcha have already died, if it happens again they wouldn't exist in this realm anymore"

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    • Stand corrected. Though it boggles the mind to think of dead people dying and then that's the ultimate death. 

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    • Eh, I'd say that GT is plagarizing Z. Both have arcs with the origins of Goku's race, The Frieza Arc and the Baby Arc, arcs about the perfect andriod created by Dr.Gero--The Cell Saga and The Super 17 Saga--and the arc about evil reincarnated--Majin Buu Arc and Shadow Dragons Arc.

      However, the main reason why I'm here is because as you guys may know, we have a somewhat serious problem: The information between the differences between the anime and manga in the Future Trunks Saga. We are currently struggling to find an argument and/or find another idea after 10x Kamehameha disapproved of Bullza and my idea of using the sliders in the Biography section. If you are intrested in giving an idea or have an argument to prove 10x wrong, please discuss it in my forum page . And if you're not intrested, at least please share this to others. I would like to discuss this as a community.

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    • Have a manga section and an anime section on the same page... how is this an issue?

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    • He too dissaproves of that. Talk about this in my forum page...........

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    • No. There's no point in getting involved in something like this. If the people in charge don't understand how to organize information that makes it clear which source they're using, then we can't fix that level of ignorance. America elected Trump, ignorance is in the in thing right now.

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    • Are you b8ing as well?

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Are you b8ing as well?

      ... no, I'm google.

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    • Super has better storylines, except for the baby saga, GT sucked a**, How does someone grow a tail back almost instantly, and some of you are talking about Goku and Vegeta being able to be a SSJB in four months, they trained their entire life, + Goku has the SSG power inside of him. Also along with getting new characters, Super focuses on the characters who no one cares about, especialy GT, such as: Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, and others. SO YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      DBS

      GT sux for no female super saiyans too

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    • MehQueen25 wrote:
      Super has better storylines, except for the baby saga, GT sucked a**, How does someone grow a tail back almost instantly, and some of you are talking about Goku and Vegeta being able to be a SSJB in four months, they trained their entire life, + Goku has the SSG power inside of him. Also along with getting new characters, Super focuses on the characters who no one cares about, especialy GT, such as: Tien, Yamcha, Krillin, and others. SO YA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Well the true reason Vegeta's/Gohan's didn't grew back becuase Toriyama was getting lazy with drawing them, saiyan tails regrow anytime

      As for Goku yeah, his tail should be needed to grew back magicly, didn't God "somehow" removed it? Why is this tail regrows naturally but Vegeta needed the blutz waves?

      Also yeah DB Goku Time uses GOKU as the main character (heck yeah) so it is the ONLY time Super is useful

      Also you meant Super Lapis saga

      Baby saga is bassicly "a retarded tsuful turns everyone into "demons" so he can avenge his pathethic race and Goku saves the day, thend" saga

      Also as a Vegeta fanboy, Baby saga made no sense, why the fudge did Baby took over Vegeta's body and how then proceeded to pound Goku?

      Goku in GT as base had the power of SSJ3 Z Goku, Vegeta was no match for Goku, Baby Vegeta was stronger than that, wha?

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    • Ok...so i just wasted my time reading this thread. It seriously boils down to; Super sucks because it ripped off GT's ide of this, which was already done before in DB. To add to that, when someone states a flaw about GT the OP replies with; yea but its GT Goku. 

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    • Gt is a what-if ten years later. So, sorry Gogeta.... but Vegerot is still stronger than you in SSB.

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    • ... vegito?

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    • It must be terrible for people to see hundreds of different names for the same character. Also, bills? The f does that come from?

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    • "Bills" is a horrible name, for me the character is Beerus, simple.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: It must be terrible for people to see hundreds of different names for the same character. Also, bills? The f does that come from?

      I'm using the Manga one. Seems to be the most sense than "Vegito". Vegetto is better....by a little.

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    • And Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      Gt is a what-if ten years later.

      Um GT takes place "5 years after Z"

      "I'm using the Manga one." - no offence but "Bills" makes as much sense as "Bulma" (her name is a pun on Bloomers, i don't see Bloomers in "Bulma", so Big green dub got this correct) "Gokou", "Krilyn", "Barduck" (this one makes sense, as dakku is "Duck" in japanese - see the famicom game "Duck Tales 2")

      Also Vegeta should be Vegerta, as Vegetable is BEJITABURU in japanese, not BEJIITABURU

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    • "Bills" is already a wasted name that only the Latin American dub seems to use for some reason. In short, it was all related to the original concept for Beerus as an evil lizard-like villain who infected people with evil, much like a virus.

      But thankfully Toriyama changed the pun of the GOD and Angels with alcoholic drinks.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      "Bills" is already a wasted name that only the Latin American dub seems to use for some reason. In short, it was all related to the original concept for Beerus as an evil lizard-like villain who infected people with evil, much like a virus.

      But thankfully Toriyama changed the pun of the GOD and Angels with alcoholic drinks.

      If Beerus drinks Champangne I am so done with relationships

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    • Or if Whis drinks Calvados 

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    • Yeah, though I like the puns, I really don't know why he associated Gods and Angels with alcohol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • Because faith is the opiate of the masses.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      I really don't know why he associated Gods and Angels with alcohol ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Most name puns make no sense

      Like Garlic Junior being named after Garlic despite looking like a Vampire

      Or Chi-Chi being named after Milk

      Maron is a mistery, is she named after "moron" or the chestnut?!

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      Most name puns make no sense

      Like Garlic Junior being named after Garlic despite looking like a Vampire

      Or Chi-Chi being named after Milk

      Maron is a mistery, is she named after "moron" or the chestnut?!

      Well, some of them actually do make sense:

      "For example, the one in control of the Saiyans and other villainous aliens is Frieza. Strictly speaking, Frieza is “freezer”, but I envisioned a refrigerator when I named him. So, I grouped the names according to foods that go inside it. The Saiyans are vegetables [yasai, “vegetables”], and the Ginyu Force are dairy products."
      Akira Toriyama

      I think the intended pun of Maron (the filler character) was indeed chestnut. And yeah some of them are mostly named after random food or objects.

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    • Without going too much offtopic, my problem with "Bills" is that it makes sense but with an original concept of the character. Toriyama didn't envisioned Beerus as an evil lizard who infects people.

      Why would you name a guy who is not technically a villain after something dangerous like a "virus"?

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    • NervousShipper wrote: And Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

      What...?

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    • Iso33 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: And Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

      What...?

      Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Iso33 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: And Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

      What...?

      Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

      So... in other words...it doesn't make SENSE.

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    • ... Veggietales is a cartoon featuring vegetables that always has a moral to their stories. STD's are bad, and sometimes called crotch rot. The name Vegerot sounds like Veggietales did an episode about STD's where one of the veggies.... has rot.


      Not sure how that was at all difficult to understand, especially since google is a thing. If you didn't care enough to check for yourself, why would you care enough to ask what I meant?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      And Vegerot sounds like an episode of veggietales about STD's

      Well since Carrot is Kyarotto in japanese, i geuss Viz's Vegerot is more valid than calling him Veget (Vegerta + Cacarrot)

      Even kanzenshuu/VegettoEX doesn't want to use the Veget rominization

      And no while Veget is "VEGETA - A" to some, Gotenks is "GOTEN + ks" to others

      "Freeza is “freezer”, but I envisioned a refrigerator when I named him. So, I grouped the names according to foods that go inside it." - i don't renember putting potatoes (Toteppo) in a fridge

      Also speaking of saiyan birth name, can someone please make logic to them?

      Bardock/Barduck

      King Vegeta/Prince Vegeta/Vegeta jr

      Paragus

      Onio/Onion/Gine/Eschalot

      Toma/Tora

      Selypa/Fasha/Korn

      Pumbukin/Shugesh/Pumpkin

      Totappo/Borgos

      Raditz

      Nappa (note: he's not named after the Napa cabbage)

      Kakarotto/Kakarot

      Tullece/Turles

      Broli/Broly

      Cabba

      Cauliflia

      Kale

      Vegetto

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    • NervousShipper wrote: ... Veggietales is a cartoon featuring vegetables that always has a moral to their stories. STD's are bad, and sometimes called crotch rot. The name Vegerot sounds like Veggietales did an episode about STD's where one of the veggies.... has rot.

      I watched it before....

      Not sure how that was at all difficult to understand, especially since google is a thing. If you didn't care enough to check for yourself, why would you care enough to ask what I meant?

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    • Vemeato

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    • Vegerot sounds like Vegeta's body rotted... so dark. 

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    • Bills sounds like cancer.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Bills sounds like cancer.

      ...? Weird idea.

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    • MehQueen25 wrote:
      Vegerot sounds like Vegeta's body rotted... so dark. 

      By a little.

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    • @Gtapologist, all of them did that, DB was the start, Z took all that from it, GT took that from Z, and super took that from GT

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Vemeato


      I lol'd

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    • This might actually make sense(which is not) IF GT actually had characters like Hit or Jiren,I mean ffs,shit all you want on DBS but Tournament of Power alone delivers more than everything GT ever made,how is dis even a thing???find me something in GT that can top Goku vs Hit,or Black vs Vegeta rematch,or Goku vs Jiren,or Hit vs Jiren,hahahahahaha,even if its copy-pasted(which is a huge stretch ffs) like you say,Super did it better.PERIOD

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    • Hit?

      That's Ledgic dude.

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    • CaessarC wrote:
      I mean ffs,shit all you want on DBS but Tournament of Power alone delivers more than everything GT ever made

      Say what? ToP is just a DBM rippoff but the losers gets wiped out from existense instead of being sent back to their universes

      Still Salagir's DBM isn't good either (Broli is overpowered, Pan dies, other Pan loses to freaking Kakarotto, Kakarotto being more powerful than he should be, Vegetto's personality, no Future Gohan's universe), but at least it is better than DBS and DBGT combined

      Future Trunks Saga is worse thought : "Trunks" owns Trunkie, Future Gohan gets wiped out, Non Kaioshin Potara fusions has a time limit, Trunkie is dating an grandma, Goku Black being a penisless green god who switched bodies with Goku and thinks he's "the best like no one ever was"

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    • Sorry for the delay, but I stopped posting cause of the drama. I cease no reason to argue.

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    • You cease no reason? Would you like some warm milk and turkey?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      You cease no reason? Would you like some warm milk and turkey?

      WHAT

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      "Trunks" owns Trunkie, Future Gohan gets wiped out, Non Kaioshin Potara fusions has a time limit, Trunkie is dating an grandma, Goku Black being a penisless green god who switched bodies with Goku and thinks he's "the best like no one ever was"

      Not to mention, Goku Black is just an overall cliche character. I mean seriously, he is a rip-off of several characters such as Sigma, Anakin, Skynet, and other characters who have god complexes and want to eliminate all human life. Not to mention, he looks like an offspring of Shrek.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:
      BH Ouji wrote:
      "Trunks" owns Trunkie, Future Gohan gets wiped out, Non Kaioshin Potara fusions has a time limit, Trunkie is dating an grandma, Goku Black being a penisless green god who switched bodies with Goku and thinks he's "the best like no one ever was"
      Not to mention, Goku Black is just an overall cliche character. I mean seriously, he is a rip-off of several characters such as Sigma, Anakin, Skynet, and other characters who have god complexes and want to eliminate all human life.

      Um no, Goku Black doesn't want to wipe out humans (that would be too good) he wants to wipe out all MORTALS

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    • Oh, that is what I meant. After all, humans is also another word for mortals. In other words, like Sigma, Skynet, and Ultron, his goal is to exterminate all biological life to create a "utopia" and also has a complicated plot to evolve, much like Ultron. Which is caused bu a fight woth an important character, like Sigma. And is created through a time loop created by their attempts to eliminate their "John Connor", like Skynet. Also views his enemies as evil, and wields an energy blade, like Sigma and Anakin.

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    • All humans are mortals, but not all mortals are human.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: All humans are mortals, but not all mortals are human.

      Earthlings call themselves human. But all gods call mortals humans.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote: All humans are mortals, but not all mortals are human.

      Earthlings call themselves human. But all gods call mortals humans.

      Wrong. The Japanese word for "human" is the same as the word for "mortal", and is roughly transliterated as "ningen". Strangely enough, it's almost identical to the Portuguese and Spanish words for "nobody".

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    • SuperBen 1000000
      SuperBen 1000000 removed this reply because:
      Dyu
      17:50, October 30, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      BH Ouji wrote:
      "Trunks" owns Trunkie, Future Gohan gets wiped out, Non Kaioshin Potara fusions has a time limit, Trunkie is dating an grandma, Goku Black being a penisless green god who switched bodies with Goku and thinks he's "the best like no one ever was"

      Not to mention, Goku Black is just an overall cliche character. I mean seriously, he is a rip-off of several characters such as Sigma, Anakin, Skynet, and other characters who have god complexes and want to eliminate all human life. Not to mention, he looks like an offspring of Shrek.

      Oh, that is what I meant. After all, humans is also another word for mortals. In other words, like Sigma, Skynet, and Ultron, his goal is to exterminate all biological life to create a "utopia" and also has a complicated plot to evolve, much like Ultron. Which is caused bu a fight woth an important character, like Sigma. And is created through a time loop created by their attempts to eliminate their "John Connor", like Skynet. Also views his enemies as evil, and wields an energy blade, like Sigma and Anakin.

      That doesn't stop the fact that this still applies. Black compared to them makes Black a terrible character. I don'the know why you people like him so much.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      SuperBen 1000000 wrote:


      BH Ouji wrote:
      "Trunks" owns Trunkie, Future Gohan gets wiped out, Non Kaioshin Potara fusions has a time limit, Trunkie is dating an grandma, Goku Black being a penisless green god who switched bodies with Goku and thinks he's "the best like no one ever was"
      Not to mention, Goku Black is just an overall cliche character. I mean seriously, he is a rip-off of several characters such as Sigma, Anakin, Skynet, and other characters who have god complexes and want to eliminate all human life. Not to mention, he looks like an offspring of Shrek.

      Oh, that is what I meant. After all, humans is also another word for mortals. In other words, like Sigma, Skynet, and Ultron, his goal is to exterminate all biological life to create a "utopia" and also has a complicated plot to evolve, much like Ultron. Which is caused bu a fight woth an important character, like Sigma. And is created through a time loop created by their attempts to eliminate their "John Connor", like Skynet. Also views his enemies as evil, and wields an energy blade, like Sigma and Anakin.

      That doesn't stop the fact that this still applies. Black compared to them makes Black a terrible character. I don'the know why you people like him so much.


      Black would be better if he was the Yin form of Future Goku rather than a Kaio who switched bodies with Goku (becuase Goku doesn't know his place in the pecking order) and gain a xxx organ

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    • I don't understand how you idiots can argue about such tom foolery. These series are clearly just cash grabs by Toei to make money off of a popular series. The real disscusions that we should be having is that Z, GT and especially Super are pittance compared to the original Dragon Ball. It is extremely unclear to me how you can argue which inferior product is better then the other when the gold standard has already been made. Dragon ball is so superior to these series that even the filler is much more entralling then any subsequential series made after these, the worst of these being that horrid Dragon Ball Z. 

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    • Ha, great troll, dude. DB was awful.

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    • You think I am some lowly troll? You clearly do not have good taste because Dragon ball is the best part of the entire series. Are you trying to tell me that anything is better animated, written and handled better in Super, GT and Z. Nothing produced in any of those series is close to being as engaging or interesting as anything done in dragon ball. You make a mockery of yourself for saying otherwise.

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    • I actually like DB as well. Though I disagree that Z was inferior. It wasn't. In fact, it's what made us Westerners into the series in the first place. I might be an exception because what got me in the series was GT. But point being, Z had a lot of good in depth fight scenes. All were meaningful and iconic and changed the characters in a big way. Not to mention it spawned the greatest villain in all of Dragon Ball, just look at the rankings, Frieza. Z had all of us at the edge of our seats at all times. I think that they potrayed the intensity of every fight and conflict very well not to mention the iconic soundtrack. And yes, while it did not have as much humor as DB, it still managed to have some humor in it and popularize DB's action scenes a lot more. Not to mention, the clever wit in DBZ is better than DB and continues off of it. And yes, while it had an inferior handling and filler, the excitement and continuation of development of every character just increased.

      And yed, I agree with you on how GT and worst of all Super is very inferior compared to Z and DB

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    • GT did justice by Dragon Ball by planning out the powerscaling, meanwhile in Super everything is weak and inconsistant, Db was bad because goku was a lolboy.

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    • Edmang161 wrote: You think I am some lowly troll? You clearly do not have good taste because Dragon ball is the best part of the entire series. Are you trying to tell me that anything is better animated, written and handled better in Super, GT and Z. Nothing produced in any of those series is close to being as engaging or interesting as anything done in dragon ball. You make a mockery of yourself for saying otherwise.

      as engaging as wishing to be able to talk to girls is, yeah, I think the animation style is too shoddy to make such a ridiculous plot worth watching.

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    • I liked Dragon Ball, but it was more restrictive compared to Z. Fewer iconic characters (Gohan, Vegeta, Frieza), and it emphasised humour over excitement. Z unlocked so many more posdibilities. I mean how cool would it be if Kid Goku turned Super Saiyan when Tambourine killed Krillin?

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    • Let's not throw the troll word around. Discuss in a civilised manner please.

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    • Bullza wrote: Let's not throw the troll word around. Discuss in a civilised manner please.

      Oh my god Bullza you actually listened to him/her?! I don't wanna insult but that was a snitch move he/she did. Seriously, as long if that doesn't keep happening it's fine.

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    • I'm male, since you're wondering.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      Bullza wrote: Let's not throw the troll word around. Discuss in a civilised manner please.

      Oh my god Bullza you actually listened to him/her?! I don't wanna insult but that was a snitch move he/she did. Seriously, as long if that doesn't keep happening it's fine.

      Agreed. Kudos, Ben.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      as engaging as wishing to be able to talk to girls is, yeah, I think the animation style is too shoddy to make such a ridiculous plot worth watching.

      As engaging as wishing babies to not have headaches is, yeah, I think the animation style of Super is too shoddy to make such a ridiculous plot worth watching.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      Bullza wrote: Let's not throw the troll word around. Discuss in a civilised manner please.

      Oh my god Bullza you actually listened to him/her?! I don't wanna insult but that was a snitch move he/she did. Seriously, as long if that doesn't keep happening it's fine.

      Agreed. Kudos, Ben.

      Oh....why thank you.😀 That's the first time you have ever kudos me.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I liked Dragon Ball, but it was more restrictive compared to Z. Fewer iconic characters (Gohan, Vegeta, Frieza), and it emphasised humour over excitement. Z unlocked so many more posdibilities. I mean how cool would it be if Kid Goku turned Super Saiyan when Tambourine killed Krillin?

      Pretty much every character that's iconic in z made their debut in dragon ball (Piccolo, Goku, Bulma, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kuririn) except the 3 you listed and like 2 others. It would not have been cool if Goku turned super saiyan as a kid. It would've ruined the story arc for one because absolutely no one would be capable of opposing him until Freeza. But also it'd just be confusing because there was no set up, in the manga his hair would just be randomly white and spikier for no reason. The reason it was cool in the Freeza arc is because there was a set up that took forever and the pay out for that set up did not dissapoint. The only reason it sounds cool in retrospect is because we know what super saiyan is and we've had that set up already.

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    • Well actually Gohan and Vegeta went on to have far more fame and influence than Yamcha or Tien ever did. Yamcha is pretty much nothing more than the Magikarp of Dragon Ball these days. I know it wouldn't have worked, but it's just a "what if" scenario that's popular in among fans.

      I still don't get your hate for Z. In DB we were stuck on an Earth, but in Z we got to see such a huge universe with endless possibilities. The King Piccolo Saga was where the stakes became high and the story became exciting, as all the villains before him were silly and goofy.

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    • If by universe of endless possibilty you mean going to one planet that looks about the same where ever you go.  and yeah all the villains were goofy, Like tenshinhan, you know, the guy who broke yamcha's leg and intends to murder Goku initally, or Taopaipai, ya know the guy who murders a guy in front of his son and almost kills Goku. The Red Ribbon Army is a millitant organization that will actively execute and enslave innoncents to acheive their goal, maybe their leaders motivation of being tall is a dumb gag but then he gets murdered and replaced by staff officer black. I don't know why Pilaf is apparently the standard of Dragon Ball villians, or why less silly = better. Yamcha and Tenshinhan's death on the series fuels the plot of the arc that alot of people say is the best and just because they do less does not mean they are not Iconic


      As for why Dragon Ball is better then Dragon Ball Z. Goku actually learns some techniques instead of seeking the latest and most powerful super saiyan transformation that is the most almighty thing that will be replaced in a month. Sure stronger characters still win in dragon ball but when they fight Kurirn's brains almost beat Goku's brawn and Jackie Chun and Goku lock in a battle of not only strength, but skill as well, which make for a much more interesting fights then screaming until you're stong enough to win. They actually spend time adventuring in dragon ball and there are actually more interesting locatons then desolate wasteland #45. Goku actually developes as a character in Dragon Ball going from a naive child to an adult throughout the course of the series he actually matures and if anything more recently he has regressed in character. Goku is not the absolute winner everytime and it takes him until the end to actually win a tournament which is something that he wanted since the second arc. The art of the fights is generally better drawn\animated and are more then invisible streaks of lines and and 4 frame loops of constant punching and the series is over all higher quality.

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    • Okay now you're just being biased. Those were all legitimate points that anyone could see, but apparently anything that doesn't match your opinion is wrong.

      No. I'm talking about introducing an afterlife, introducing Goku's Saiyan heritage, planet destroying ki attacks, Frieza's organisation .etc Not the same old dull repetitive Earth.

      Tien didn't stay a villain so he doesn't count, even when he was an enemy he was merely opposed to the Turtle School but had no grandiose evil plans. Pilaf, Murasaki, General Blue, Commander Red were all goofy comic relief villains. Vegeta, Frieza, and Cell all had very complex personalities that Toriyama put a lot of work into and were not meant to be as one-note as DB villains. No one is going to remember Commander Red, but everyone remembers Frieza.

      Okay, that is one of the things I do like more about Dragon Ball. There was more emphasis on learning rather than getting stronger. But Dragon Ball's plot was still too simple as a whole compared to Z.

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    • None of those villains are complex, they carry about two major personality traits each. He didn't really put a lot of time into Vegeta, it seems he was going to kill him off before he saw his fan popularity.

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    • I would say Baby from GT was more complex than Frieza, at least he carried more with him than "Ruthless dictator whom acts politely" 

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    • What was the point of enslaving Earthlings against their will? Weren't the Saiyans the ones who killed the Tsufuru? Why not kill Vegeta and the rest of the remaining Saiyans as payback?

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    • This whole argument is biased, this is literally an arguement about baises.

      Planet destroying Ki attacks was never a new thing, Max power Muten Roshi is capbable of destroying the moon. General Blue executes a man for sneezing and is the most capable antagonist until Taopaipai and is taken rather seriously. General Red is pretty much the most powerful man in the world, he has the means to do anything he wants and the only joke is he is as tall as Chaozu you're ignoring the serious qualities of these characters to support you arguement. Ninja Murasaki is the first antagonist to actually make Goku mad and threatens to kill android 8 because he dares disobey. Perfect Cell is just Freeza. I don't know how you wouldn't remember commander red, I guess his major contribution is getting shot in the face by Staff Officer Black, but he plays a big role in the arc 

      How does Tenshinhan not count as a villian but Vegeta does? Does Piccolo jr. count as a villian? He actually kills Goku

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    • Baby could have interperated the planet as essentially being under the rule of the saiyans, plus when he got the knowledge from one of the GT fighters of the Black Star Dragon Balls, he could have figured it was the only way to save them from the planet's demise after he brought back Planet Plant. 


      He was obviously corrupt and mad with power by the end, no doubt affected by Vegeta's saiyan instincts during his fight against Goku.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:

      How does Tenshinhan not count as a villian but Vegeta does? Does Piccolo jr. count as a villian? He actually kills Goku

      They all are on "Former Villains" category.

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    • But you can't cherry pick which one is a villian or not, they're either all villians or they're not.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Okay now you're just being biased. Those were all legitimate points that anyone could see, but apparently anything that doesn't match your opinion is wrong.

      No. I'm talking about introducing an afterlife, introducing Goku's Saiyan heritage, planet destroying ki attacks, Frieza's organisation .etc The same old dull repetitive

      Tien didn't stay a villain so he doesn't count, even when he was an enemy he was merely opposed to the Turtle School but had no grandiose evil plans. Pilaf, Murasaki, General Blue, Commander Red were all goofy comic relief villains. Vegeta, Frieza, and Cell all had very complex personalities that Toriyama put a lot of work into and were not meant to be as one-note as DB villains. No one is going to remember Commander Red, but everyone remembers Frieza.

      Okay, that is one of the things I do like more about Dragon Ball. There was more emphasis on learning rather than getting stronger. But Dragon Ball's plot was still too simple as a whole compared to Z.

      Also to go back and cover a point I missed the concept of an afterlife is introduced in dragon ball. Specifically when it is stated that your soul passed on when you die and that if you are killed by a demon clansmen your soul does not pass on. 

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    • Just because DB introduced a similar concept doesn't invalidate for doing it. And no one else came close to destroying the moon other than Roshi, even King Piccolo could only level a city.

      Tien was more of an antihero like Yamcha. He had a code of honor which he abided by, which is why Roshi saw there was good in him and could coax it out. Piccolo was just straight out evil.

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    • So if Roshi is the only one capable of destroying the moon why didn't he go max power and kill piccoloWhy did he stake everything on the mafuba instead of using the option thay would not have resulted in his death and had less room for error. Also by that standard nobody but Freeza and kid buu can blow up a planet, even though that's clearly not true. 

      Tenshinhan was never an antihero, he still is actively working against Goku as the antagonist for the whole arc and only then does he join Goku. He's not Vegeta, who works with the heroes only for his own self gain and will also do things that are actively against the heroes' cause. You can not say Tenshinhan was not a villain because he has morals and good in him. Where were these when he brutally beat yamcha, or when his inital motivation is to kill Goku and become an assassin? These things only serve as the instruments of his redemption from being a villian not to say he is not a villian. 

      I was not saying Z did not expand the concept of the after life, I said it did not introduce it. 

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    • Because Roshi didn't want to BFR and kill many innocent lives. Good guys don't destroy the planet if you haven't been paying attention. Mafuba would have resulted in less collateral damage if he got it right, but he didn't.

      Call him what you want, but he's distinctly different from the category Frieza and Cell are in. He was never that evil and didn't take much persuading, he was more of a rival to Goku than a nemesis. The villain-villains of DB are Pilaf, Red Ribbon Army, King Piccolo, and Piccolo Jr.

      But you're literally acting like "because Z wasn't the first one to do it then it sucks". Why change something that works?

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    • At what point did I say it sucks because it wasn't first, quote me. I said Z as a series sucks. I actually gave no opinion on the expansion of otherworld in Z.

      If you hadn't noticed the angle of the attack matters in Dragon ball, why would he be so willing to use the attack that could destroy a moon and possibly the planet to put out a fire, but not to kill the greatest threat the world as ever faced if just using the attack would destroy the entire planet. Same with Vegeta and the final flash and Goku with the Teleport Kamehameha. Never does he say "I wish there weren't so many innocents in this remote location so I could use my full power kamehameha" he clearly intends to mafuba piccolo because he does not have the power to beat him in combat, but he does have a trick up his sleeve that could theorectically defeat him. When the characters in Dragon Ball become stronger then Roshi is he still the only one capable of destroying the moon?

      It doesn't look like King Piccolo puts anymore more effort into his attack that destroys a city then Nappa does when he does that same, and frankly king piccolo's attack looks more spectacular in my opinion. Both has the same purpose, to show that the villian is capable of making a city into a desolate wasteland to prove they are powerful. 

      The inital point I made was that you categorized Tenshinhan as not a villian and continue to do so but cited Vegeta as a villian in the same paragraph. You can not cherry pick which character that redeems himself is to be considered a villian and which is not. 

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    • But to stop digressing from the initial topic. 

      It's pretty clear that the original poster was correct and that Super is copying off of GT's homework.

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    • Even if they are copying, they're doing it better than the original. Not one of them has been defeated by a building.

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    • Then why did you keep bringing up "it wasn't the first" if it wasn't relevant?

      If so, then you're just hating on Z for not being DB which is even more dumb.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      Then why did you keep bringing up "it wasn't the first" if it wasn't relevant?

      If so, then you're just hating on Z for not being DB which is even more dumb.

      Because you kept incorrectly stating it was the first when it wasn't. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Even if they are copying, they're doing it better than the original. Not one of them has been defeated by a building.

      GT is extremely better then Super. So much so it isn't even fair to compared the too. Turning Goku back into a child was the prefect choice for his character because it created a balance between his mind and body because he's a man child anyway. The Villians are better. Dolltaki was a way better antagonist then Zamasu. The shadow dragons are much cooler and more interesting then anybody introduced in the tournament of power. GT did not make a new broly that's worse then the original Broly, which is something I thought not possible until recently. The powerscale in Gt is more concise and makes sense while Super's is a sloppy mess that makes no sense.

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    • I said Z made it famous, never said it was the first. If we're going to play that game, Toriyama wasn't the first either and destroying planets has been around in plenty of other works. Does that make it a ripoff? No it doesn't.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I said Z made it famous, never said it was the first. If we're going to play that game, Toriyama wasn't the first either and destroying planets has been around in plenty of other works. Does that make it a ripoff? No it doesn't.

      When did you even say that? You said that it was the first to have an after life and planet destroying techniques and I said no it was in dragon ball. Z made it famous IN AMERICA. it was already a big deal in japan. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Ha, great troll, dude. DB was awful.

      Nope, Dragon Ball is my fav version of the anime, it's not a story about tailed humanoids that can become blond being the best, it's about friendship and comedy

      "Turning Goku back into a child was the prefect choice" - you mad? This is one thing GT sucked (other than Toei making him the only useful character in the series and turning Pan into an agressive whinning brat)

      "The villain-villains of DB are Pilaf (...)" - lololol no, while Pilaf is no doubt a "villain", he's just a comidic (sp) villain, i bet he and his lackeys were turned into Pokemon's Meowth, Jessie and James. They share in common in being pathethic villains

      Also Pilaf and his gang were wished back during the Buu saga, so they can't be that evil

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    • I meant in DB planets were never destroyed, that stake was only introduced in Z. The moon is still smaller than a planet so doesn't count.

      DBZ is the grandfather for ki blasts and beat em animes. There's a reason why Goku is one of Japan's mascots because they made it phenomenally famous everywhere. Your hate for Z makes no sense other than preference for DB.

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    • BH Ouji wrote:
      Nope, Dragon Ball is my fav version of the anime, it's not a story about tailed humanoids that can become blond being the best, it's about friendship and comedy


      At least the word "training" was more pronounced there. If you wanted to be stronger you needed to work your butt hard unlike now that there's 5 transformations that increase your strenght to god level in seconds

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      I meant in DB planets were never destroyed, that stake was only introduced in Z. The moon is still smaller than a planet so doesn't count.

      DBZ is the grandfather for ki blasts and beat em animes. There's a reason why Goku is one of Japan's mascots because they made it phenomenally famous everywhere. Your hate for Z makes no sense other than preference for DB.

      I'm pretty sure I gave several good reasons why Z is inferior to Dragon Ball and I used at least one positive example for z. It's as simple as that, Dragon ball is better then Z 

      I mean it's not hard to be better then Z though, Gt is the second best series. But I've done some thinking and it's clear to me now that Super is actually the worst dragon ball series to date. There's just no stakes anymore. 

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    • GT better than Z? Hahahahahahahaha! Yeah sorry man, you lost any credibility you had. Good day to you sir, I won't be replying anymore.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
      GT better than Z? Hahahahahahahaha! Yeah sorry man, you lost any credibility you had. Good day to you sir, I won't be replying anymore.

      You understand that a person having different preferences than you doesn't make them lose credibility, yeah?

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      You understand that a person having different preferences than you doesn't make them lose credibility, yeah?

      Explain to me objectively how in any way GT could be better than Z?

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      You understand that a person having different preferences than you doesn't make them lose credibility, yeah?

      Explain to me objectively how in any way GT could be better than Z?

      Preferences are subjective by definition. I could no more objectively explain that to you than I could objectively explain why one taste is better than another.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      You understand that a person having different preferences than you doesn't make them lose credibility, yeah?

      Explain to me objectively how in any way GT could be better than Z?

      Preferences are subjective by definition. I could no more objectively explain that to you than I could objectively explain why one taste is better than another.

      The fact that Z is iconic around the world and GT gets slandered on by the majority would suggest that Z at least has an upperhand over GT.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      You understand that a person having different preferences than you doesn't make them lose credibility, yeah?

      Explain to me objectively how in any way GT could be better than Z?
      Preferences are subjective by definition. I could no more objectively explain that to you than I could objectively explain why one taste is better than another.
      The fact that Z is iconic around the world and GT gets slandered on by the majority would suggest that Z at least has an upperhand over GT.

      From what I hear, when we get down to it, GT gets slandered for "not being made by Toriyama", which does not address the actual content of the series. That said, the fact that most people don't like GT doesn't make someone else lose credibility just because they do.

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    • Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:

      You understand that a person having different preferences than you doesn't make them lose credibility, yeah?

      Explain to me objectively how in any way GT could be better than Z?
      Preferences are subjective by definition. I could no more objectively explain that to you than I could objectively explain why one taste is better than another.
      The fact that Z is iconic around the world and GT gets slandered on by the majority would suggest that Z at least has an upperhand over GT.

      From what I hear, when we get down to it, GT gets slandered for "not being made by Toriyama", which does not address the actual content of the series. That said, the fact that most people don't like GT doesn't make someone else lose credibility just because they do.

      Nah, nothing to do with that "Toriyama didnt make so not canon" stuff. It gets hated on simply because it was bad writing. Literally scroll up to see reasons why people didn't like the content.

      Something being good is defined by its ability to make others like it. If it fails at that, then it's trash.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      Blaziken rjcf wrote:From what I hear, when we get down to it, GT gets slandered for "not being made by Toriyama", which does not address the actual content of the series. That said, the fact that most people don't like GT doesn't make someone else lose credibility just because they do.

      Nah, nothing to do with that "Toriyama didnt make so not canon" stuff. It gets hated on simply because it was bad writing. Literally scroll up to see reasons why people didn't like the content.

      Something being good is defined by its ability to make others like it. If it fails at that, then it's trash.

      All the complaints about GT can be applied to Z, Super, and DB.

      Bad writing?

      How about Goku going from a murder-happy kid to someone who lets villains go for no reason?

      Don't even get me started on Piccolo's "I changed my mind about hating you because I spent time training you" bit.

      God wants to wipe out humanity because he deems them evil/unworthy/whatever and is defeated by the collective power of humanity? I can't even think of how many series have this.

      Main character has an evil clone/body double/doppelganger that hates the main character for one reason or another? Again, cliché. And it was already done with Turles.

      Dark and brooding does not a personality make, and Vegeta('s writers) would do well to learn this. At least Batman wasn't always whining about how someone else was stronger than him.


      Like I said, when we get down to it, it's all about sucking Toriyama's Super Saiyan dick.


      And yeah, it is defined by its ability to make others like it. And millions do like it. In my country, GT is universally preferred over Z. I went to a party one time where a bunch of people at a table started singing GT's theme song, and everyone else broke out into song as well. So, again, personal preference.

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    • Look I've already had this debate many times on this thread and don't really feel like listing all of GT's problems again.

      Even if GT is preferred over Z in some areas, Z is almost always positively received while GT at best is a mixed bag. Creating controversy is not a good sign and as far as animes go GT is one of the best examples of that.

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    • I can name several reasons GT is better than Z. By extension Super as well. On the most basic level the animation is much better than Z because they stopped outsourcing for cheaper scenes, even if repeat animations continued. 

      There isn't a single use of CGI in Super that doesn't look disjointed and distracting, especially when the ki blasts are CG now, mm, very satisfying. 

      But on the most basic level, GT had a lot of planning, it didn't need a Kai version to cut down all of the fluff because every episode is supposed to mean something to the plot in some way. 


      For example, the enemies Goku fights in sequence seem appropriately strong, and clearly have a rate of progression from Ledgic to Omega. 


      Wheras in Z, the android saga changed it's main antagonist twice because Toriyama didn't know what his character designer wanted of him, and the Buu saga has so many sudden decisions that have no powerscaling in effect that it's rather hated by the fickle fanbase. 

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    • Talking about enemy progression. The first enemy Goku fights in Super Saiyan Blue is stronger than Super Saiyan Blue, and that never really ends, I guess Toyble made Hit weaker than Blue in the manga but otherwise it was a transformation born to die and that's more than obvious with how fast it's been replaced.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:

      I'm pretty sure I gave several good reasons why Z is inferior to Dragon Ball and I used at least one positive example for z. It's as simple as that, Dragon ball is better then Z 

      I mean it's not hard to be better then Z though, Gt is the second best series. But I've done some thinking and it's clear to me now that Super is actually the worst dragon ball series to date. There's just no stakes anymore. 

      He's not wrong, in GT you feel people could have died at various points, in Z the situations are tense with equal stakes. 


      In Super what can happen? This series was bookended before it started.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:
       I won't be replying anymore.

      Fake news.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:
       I won't be replying anymore.

      Fake news.

      I no longer replied to that guy on about "Z is worse than DB". Was gonna leave the thread altogether before I got quoted.

      Now it's turned into GT better than Z which is even stupider than the original topic of a series "plagiarising off itself"

      You have fun with them, I'm unfollowing this garbage thread of GT wank.

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    • Man i'm depressed you're not making any more weak aguements, it meant so much from one of your caliber. 

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    • ... wow.

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    • Stryzzar wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:

      Stryzzar wrote:
       I won't be replying anymore.
      Fake news.
      I no longer replied to that guy on about "Z is worse than DB". Was gonna leave the thread altogether before I got quoted.

      Now it's turned into GT better than Z which is even stupider than the original topic of a series "plagiarising off itself"

      You have fun with them, I'm unfollowing this garbage thread of GT wank.

      Super is plagerizing GT, it's so simple to see. New form. Form is used in a fusion thay fails to kill a villian. A villian that steals a main characters body to become more powerful. Only everything in GT is written better. Baby was much more interesting then hot topic's dream boy Goku Black. 

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      ... wow.

      I love you too, man.

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    • ... have you thought of running for office?

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      Stryzzar wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:


      Stryzzar wrote:
       I won't be replying anymore.
      Fake news.
      I no longer replied to that guy on about "Z is worse than DB". Was gonna leave the thread altogether before I got quoted.

      Now it's turned into GT better than Z which is even stupider than the original topic of a series "plagiarising off itself"

      You have fun with them, I'm unfollowing this garbage thread of GT wank.

      Super is plagerizing GT

      Nah, Super is using fan ideas, Future Trunks coming back? Fan idea, A blue haired SSJ1? Fan idea, Freeza getting new form? Fan idea

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    • Yeah, only fans would be able to come up with good ideas like that.

      On the other hand, GT has:

      -reverse aging Goku for a desparate attempt to get DB raitings.

      -reverse Buu (Baby)

      -Android 17 X 2

      -evil dragons, which is about the most obvious plotline one could come up with, and it's a surprise  Z never got around to it.

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    • NervousShipper wrote: Yeah, only fans would be able to come up with good ideas like that.

      On the other hand, GT has:

      -reverse aging Goku for a desparate attempt to get DB raitings.

      -reverse Buu (Baby)

      -Android 17 X 2

      -evil dragons, which is about the most obvious plotline one could come up with, and it's a surprise  Z never got around to it.

      Oh yeah, like Super is better than that.

      • Has everyone act more stupid Than they usually would act. With Goku being unlikable because he is suffering with Alziemer's and acts like a jerk to everybody around him, he literally does stuff I would kill anyone for doing. Meanwhile, Vegeta is literally reduced to now neon the Drax of Dragon Ball. In which the once tragic warrior is reduced to now being a tool for comedy. Everyone else is also literally dumbed down in Super in same way. Wit the clever wit now completely gone in favor of more jokes. It's literally becoming the MCU level of bad.

      Now, are the villains better? The answer is no.

      Yeah man, Super is SO MUCH BETTER THAN GT.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:

      Super is SO MUCH BETTER THAN GT.

      Agreed :)

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    • "Hey GT"

      "What?"

      "Mangaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa"

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    • @SuperBen 1000000

      Was that sarcasm?

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    • Guys, how would Super Saiyan 4 go against Ultra Instinct? I  mean, look at it! So fast, So cool.

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      Guys, how would Super Saiyan 4 go against Ultra Instinct? I  mean, look at it! So fast, So cool.


      OMG how annoying is when people already do these fights. SSJ4 vs SSG was kinda realistic but when it became SSJ4 vs SSB, SSJ4 vs. SSBKK and now SSJ4 vs. UI just doesn't make sense.

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    • That's not a good match-up. Goku's change vs Ultra Instinct "Omen" would be good.

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    • SS4 would lose to current 18.

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    • Why are you talking about that "change" like it's a form he could casually fight in


      Isn't the implication that he's already dead?

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      SS4 would lose to current 18.

      The Shadow Dragons would beat Team Universe 7

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    • Only if Team Universe 7 consisted of Krillen, Roshi, Goten, Trunks, Mai, Tien, Chiaotzu, Yamcha, Chichi, and Bulma.

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:
      Goku's change

      That form's official name is "Godku" ;)

      Speaking of him, he's now unstopable and can't die of old age

      "Isn't the implication that he's already dead?" - he isn't "dead", he is just Toei's wet dream about the character (See Movie 13 version of SSJ3 Goku)

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      Iso33 wrote:
      Guys, how would Super Saiyan 4 go against Ultra Instinct? I  mean, look at it! So fast, So cool.

      OMG how annoying is when people already do these fights. SSJ4 vs SSG was kinda realistic but when it became SSJ4 vs SSB, SSJ4 vs. SSBKK and now SSJ4 vs. UI just doesn't make sense.

      I was just thinking about it....

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      SS4 would lose to current 18.
      The Shadow Dragons would beat Team Universe 7

      No so fast. They are GODS and they are simply mortals. King Piccolo KILLED Shenron. That's the thing: Gods can beat mortals. Even fact, SHENRON cowarded over a god (Beerus). The Shadow Dragons? No way, no how.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      SS4 would lose to current 18.
      The Shadow Dragons would beat Team Universe 7


      Keep dreaming, each one of them except for Krillin would destroy them.

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    • Skar800 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      SS4 would lose to current 18.
      The Shadow Dragons would beat Team Universe 7

      Keep dreaming, each one of them except for Krillin would destroy them.

      You agree with me? And my evidence?

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      Skar800 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      SS4 would lose to current 18.
      The Shadow Dragons would beat Team Universe 7

      Keep dreaming, each one of them except for Krillin would destroy them.
      You agree with me? And my evidence?


      Yeah I agree but this guy just uses them because they were the final villains, which honestly doesn't matter cause they would still take the L against more than half of Super characters.

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    • No matter how sweet the retrospectively pointless episodes recapping all the members of the team were, no one on that team seems very much stronger than expected.


      Sad to say actually Oceanus would probably take everyone but the ssjbs, and Syn would kill them.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      No matter how sweet the retrospectively pointless episodes recapping all the members of the team were, no one on that team seems very much stronger than expected.


      Sad to say actually Oceanus would probably take everyone but the ssjbs, and Syn would kill them.

      Your views are somewhat right. However, it would be obvious that they (Team Universe 7) would have better control as it seemed that they were able to deal with powerful universes. 

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    • With how Tien and Krillin went, and how Gohan and Piccolo's performances in the Tournament of Power have been, I wouldn't expect the four of them to last long.

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    • Does it really matter? Even if Team 7 had Omega Shenron AND SS4 Gogeta, they would still lose to Jiren.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Does it really matter? Even if Team 7 had Omega Shenron AND SS4 Gogeta, they would still lose to Jiren.

      Maybe ;3

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Does it really matter? Even if Team 7 had Omega Shenron AND SS4 Gogeta, they would still lose to Jiren.

      Jiren is nothing compared to either of those two. What's he gonna do, stare at them?

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    • Super Saiyan Four Gogeta would knock so much positive energy into Jiren he would smile and die.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Super Saiyan Four Gogeta would knock so much positive energy into Jiren he would smile and die.

      Your a too much of a GT fan. Gogeta would be nothing compared to Jiren. Jiren doesn't flinch. Gogeta could be dominated easily cause of Jiren's power. PLUS Gogeta would get disqualified if Jiren dies.

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    • If Ultra Instinct was stronger than Super Saiyan 4, why didn't Xeno Goku use it in the DBHGM7 opening against Final Form Mira?


      I Will Ask One More Time


      Why would Xeno Goku use SSJ4 if it was weaker than Ultra Instinct?

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      Super Saiyan Four Gogeta would knock so much positive energy into Jiren he would smile and die.
      Your a too much of a GT fan. Gogeta would be nothing compared to Jiren. Jiren doesn't flinch. Gogeta could be dominated easily cause of Jiren's power. PLUS Gogeta would get disqualified if Jiren dies.

      There is absolutely no way that Jiren is anywhere close to Omega shenrons level. So that being said seeing as Omega Shenron was not anywhere as strong as Gogeta, Jiren wouldn't even stand a chance, Gogeta would see right through his movements and take his punches like they were nothing.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      If Ultra Instinct was stronger than Super Saiyan 4, why didn't Xeno Goku use it in the DBHGM7 opening against Final Form Mira?


      I Will Ask One More Time


      Why would Xeno Goku use SSJ4 if it was weaker than Ultra Instinct?

      Because game canon =/= anime (actual) canon

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    • Edmang161 wrote:

      There is absolutely no way that Jiren is anywhere close to Omega shenrons level. So that being said seeing as Omega Shenron was not anywhere as strong as Gogeta, Jiren wouldn't even stand a chance, Gogeta would see right through his movements and take his punches like they were nothing.

      If Jiren cut off his baby toe after having both android 19 and 20 draining power from it for 2 weeks, it would still have more power than Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta combined.

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    • I agree, Jiren is not on the same level as Omega Shenron. One has the potential to become a GoD, which means he can still be surpassed by a mortal 1v1, and the other was only stopped with the most powerful attack Goku has ever performed: the Universal Spirit Bomb.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      Iso33 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      Super Saiyan Four Gogeta would knock so much positive energy into Jiren he would smile and die.
      Your a too much of a GT fan. Gogeta would be nothing compared to Jiren. Jiren doesn't flinch. Gogeta could be dominated easily cause of Jiren's power. PLUS Gogeta would get disqualified if Jiren dies.
      There is absolutely no way that Jiren is anywhere close to Omega shenrons level. So that being said seeing as Omega Shenron was not anywhere as strong as Gogeta, Jiren wouldn't even stand a chance, Gogeta would see right through his movements and take his punches like they were nothing.

      Gogeta IS NOT a deity. Jiren is stronger than THE god of Destruction. Gogeta wouldn't stand a even chance. In fact, Gogeta would hardly harm Jiren. 

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    • Jiren is almost weaker than spirit bomb base form goku with ultra-full-power-saiyan-4 abilities. (Ultra Instinct)


      He's essentially old news already, though Gogeta shouldn't fight him when Ledgic would be enough.

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    • at no point during that fight was Jiren almost weaker. You don't even watch the show, do you? Jiren just powered up and then Goku was done.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      at no point during that fight was Jiren almost weaker. You don't even watch the show, do you? Jiren just powered up and then Goku was done.

      Other way around. Goku powered down, and then he was gone. Jiren was being pushed back.

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    • Jiren is trash, Kafla is stronger already.

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    • With all this pointless maneuvering about two characters who can never meet and arguing about who's stronger, every single day, I wonder if the world would be simpler if GT never existed. Probably.

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    • The world would be much better if Super was never made. GT is the superior product. 

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    • If Toriyama didn't get pissed about Evolution and make a movie, we'd probably have a Goku Jr series, but dear god how can we have a series without the OG Goku getting new forms left and right?

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      The world would be much better if Super was never made. GT is the superior product. 

      Au contraire, fans have always had arguments about whether or not GT was 'canon' between those who liked it and those who did not, which is a pointless avenue one way or another on both sides. Regardless of any debate on quality, Super is undeniably still an intended and direct continuation, and at the very least, such pointless discussions by children and somehow the occasional adult about what is and is not 'real' about a fictional universe that's solely for Shounen power fantasies would not be QUITE as common.

      I also said simpler, and not necessarily better.

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    • So I know you think you’re not, but you’re still arguing the same points other people have this entire time. Now that that’s cleared up

      Real great way to support your arguement, calling us kids, is that because you don’t have any real way to support your claims or what?

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      So I know you think you’re not, but you’re still arguing the same points other people have this entire time. Now that that’s cleared up

      Real great way to support your arguement, calling us kids, is that because you don’t have any real way to support your claims or what?

      I don't see how? I'm not claiming or disclaiming whether anything is 'canon' or not. Dragon Ball and it's entirety is a franchise, made to earn money, and is overall THE Shounen experience, full of dazzling fights that'll catch a reader or watcher's attention, but power arguments and what did or did not happen in it's universe is not part of the deal, regardless of how many fans would like to think so.

      Admittedly that's more from personal experience, I haven't been here in a while, but most people here that I knew weren't even adults, afterall, Dragon Ball's target audience is, in fact, not adults! Who'd have thought? It's a guilty pleasure for a lot of people though, myself included, nonetheless. I'm not even trying to say anything bad about GT, nor Super, I can enjoy both for what they are, and what both tried or are trying to do. I just don't see a point in trying to ask who'd win in a fight that could never happen, and using faulty logic at that on both ends to justify their preferred character. It's been something that has been done to death by fans since the beginning, of the same ilk as power level lists, trying to justify powerscaling, or anything of the such. If there was only one series managed by Toriyama, or if GT at least had him on board in a more direct manner, or if there wasn't even any sequel to the end of Z at all, perhaps the fandom altogether wouldn't be quite so stale. Despite everything new, despite any attempt to revitalize interest, people still do the same exact things they've always done: 'Well, MY favorite character could beat yours!'

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    • Apparition of Dusk wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      So I know you think you’re not, but you’re still arguing the same points other people have this entire time. Now that that’s cleared up

      Real great way to support your arguement, calling us kids, is that because you don’t have any real way to support your claims or what?

      I don't see how? I'm not claiming or disclaiming whether anything is 'canon' or not. Dragon Ball and it's entirety is a franchise, made to earn money, and is overall THE Shounen experience, full of dazzling fights that'll catch a reader or watcher's attention, but power arguments and what did or did not happen in it's universe is not part of the deal, regardless of how many fans would like to think so.

      Admittedly that's more from personal experience, I haven't been here in a while, but most people here that I knew weren't even adults, afterall, Dragon Ball's target audience is, in fact, not adults! Who'd have thought? It's a guilty pleasure for a lot of people though, myself included, nonetheless. I'm not even trying to say anything bad about GT, nor Super, I can enjoy both for what they are, and what both tried or are trying to do. I just don't see a point in trying to ask who'd win in a fight that could never happen, and using faulty logic at that on both ends to justify their preferred character. It's been something that has been done to death by fans since the beginning, of the same ilk as power level lists, trying to justify powerscaling, or anything of the such. If there was only one series managed by Toriyama, or if GT at least had him on board in a more direct manner, or if there wasn't even any sequel to the end of Z at all, perhaps the fandom altogether wouldn't be quite so stale. Despite everything new, despite any attempt to revitalize interest, people still do the same exact things they've always done: 'Well, MY favorite character could beat yours!'

      I can tell you are the type of person that does not see that other people can find fun in a arguement. 

      You are claiming that without GT there would be no arguements about what is "canon" and that we are apparently kids because we are arguing over the quality of the series and/or strenght of the character. This is not a new debate. See the series Death Battle. There has always been arguements about who would win in a fight. Amongst anybody of any age group. 

      Why do people keep stating Dragon Ball was initially a kids show, like it's supposed to come as some sort of big shot.

      Toriyama being onboard with something is not a fan stamp of approveval. Take Dragon Ball Minus for instance. Toriyama wrote that but it is genrally said to be uncanon in favor of the Bardock Special. 

      As for arguing for my favorite character to win. I haven't even brought them up. I was actually arguing for who I thought would win. 

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    • Edmang161 wrote:

      I can tell you are the type of person that does not see that other people can find fun in a arguement. 

      You are claiming that without GT there would be no arguements about what is "canon" and that we are apparently kids because we are arguing over the quality of the series and/or strenght of the character. This is not a new debate. See the series Death Battle. There has always been arguements about who would win in a fight. Amongst anybody of any age group. 

      Why do people keep stating Dragon Ball was initially a kids show, like it's supposed to come as some sort of big shot.

      Toriyama being onboard with something is not a fan stamp of approveval. Take Dragon Ball Minus for instance. Toriyama wrote that but it is genrally said to be uncanon in favor of the Bardock Special. 

      As for arguing for my favorite character to win. I haven't even brought them up. I was actually arguing for who I thought would win. 

      I suppose so, I just find trying to compare characters with neither having a firm base to compare eachother to, means the entire point lies solely with one's preference of who's stronger, and again, the simple concept of 'X can beat Y because Z!' really is a pointless endeavor.

      That wasn't quite the intent, it's that, given it started as a kid's show, and even now, at this point, is merely an attempt at power fantasy, and Super's entire existance boils down to Toriyama, effectively, going 'Oh, I forgot everyone else, I have to give them something to do.' At least for the current arc, anyway, see: ranging a park will put you on the level of a god. It's damage control at this point. Trying to analyze it beyond the surface isn't really a worthwhile thing: All the feats are there for viewership, people are only stronger than others when the plot demands it to catch interest.

      As for whether Toriyama's involvement would be accepted as a sign of being 'canon', sure, there's outliers, but one of the biggest reasons people hate on GT is 'Toriyama wasn't involved!', (though the vast majority of them are also the ones who would get sick of Super's writing as well), trying to use it as some excuse for it to be bad, despite still being pretty acceptable, in my opinion. Whether there was no GT, or Toriyama was involved in even the slightest manner more than he actually was, things wouldn't be quite so prone to bickering about it. Even if Super or the two reboot movies were never made, debates on GT as-things-actually-happend would always go on regardless.

      Also yeah, I know, it was a figure of speech friendo.

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    • Apparition of Dusk wrote:

      Au contraire, fans have always had arguments about whether or not GT was 'canon' between those who liked it and those who did not, which is a pointless avenue one way or another on both sides. Regardless of any debate on quality, Super is undeniably still an intended and direct continuation, and at the very least, such pointless discussions by children and somehow the occasional adult about what is and is not 'real' about a fictional universe that's solely for Shounen power fantasies would not be QUITE as common.

      I also said simpler, and not necessarily better.

      Citation please.


      I don't see Toriyama's name on the Dragon Ball Super manga, it's not canon. The mangas originally labeled Dragon Ball all the way to the ending after the Buu arc are canon. Super isn't canon, GT isn't canon, Online isn't canon. 


      My original argument was, Super lazily copied aspects of GT, to bring things around.

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    • GTapologist wrote:

      Citation please.


      I don't see Toriyama's name on the Dragon Ball Super manga, it's not canon. The mangas originally labeled Dragon Ball all the way to the ending after the Buu arc are canon. Super isn't canon, GT isn't canon, Online isn't canon. 


      My original argument was, Super lazily copied aspects of GT, to bring things around.

      Toriyama writes a rough outline of the plot as he'd like it to be, overseeing Toyotaro's manga, while the animators at Toei rely mostly on just said outline. It's stated on This Very Wiki, and unless you'd like to edit that out of every Super article, I'd assume that's true. And still, the entire concept of 'canon' is meaningless, though. But at the very least, it could shut up those who decide arguing about what is and isn't is somehow more stimulating than discussing any actual merits or flaws of a series.

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    • Apparition of Dusk wrote:Toriyama writes a rough outline of the plot as he'd like it to be, overseeing Toyotaro's manga, while the animators at Toei rely mostly on just said outline. It's stated on This Very Wiki, and unless you'd like to edit that out of every Super article, I'd assume that's true.

      And still, the entire concept of 'canon' is meaningless, though. But at the very least, it could shut up those who decide arguing about what is and isn't is somehow more stimulating than discussing any actual merits or flaws of a series.

      You contradict yourself.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      You contradict yourself.

      I do not quite see how? 'Canon' does not matter to me in particular is all, but what is and isn't 'canon' is an argument people into Dragon Ball have been having for..just about forever, actually, even since the days of old fan webpages, though regarding anime-only content back then, rather than GT, of course. Not to mention, you're the one whom asked for a citation, I merely provided it.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Apparition of Dusk wrote:Toriyama writes a rough outline of the plot as he'd like it to be, overseeing Toyotaro's manga, while the animators at Toei rely mostly on just said outline. It's stated on This Very Wiki, and unless you'd like to edit that out of every Super article, I'd assume that's true.

      And still, the entire concept of 'canon' is meaningless, though. But at the very least, it could shut up those who decide arguing about what is and isn't is somehow more stimulating than discussing any actual merits or flaws of a series.

      You contradict yourself.

      No he didn't. This is the problem with assuming everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

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    • Apparition of Dusk wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      You contradict yourself.
      I do not quite see how? 'Canon' does not matter to me in particular is all, but what is and isn't 'canon' is an argument people into Dragon Ball have been having for..just about forever, actually, even since the days of old fan webpages, though regarding anime-only content back then, rather than GT, of course. Not to mention, you're the one whom asked for a citation, I merely provided it.

      I don't think you know what a citation is. 

      I don't know why you came here to point out that this argument is assinine. But that was throughly unneeded. You are not above us. We get it, you like super better then GT. 

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      I don't think you know what a citation is. 

      I don't know why you came here to point out that this argument is assinine. But that was throughly unneeded. You are not above us. We get it, you like super better then GT. 

      I gave one an easy manner to find it yourself on any of the Super pages, and this wiki does use sources, no? I don't even mind the original topic matter, it's an interesting point, but it had devolved into 'Could X main villain beat Y current rival?', which isn't even related to the actual topic, now, is it? That's what I considered pointless. Not to mention, I actually don't. I figure statements like 'Park ranging makes you strong as a god', or that I consider both to be alright, but flawed, was a sign I actually perfectly enjoy GT as it is.

      That just doesn't change Toriyama's actual involvement, or the usual opinion of this fanbase, regardless of it's merits, GT practically split people pretty roughly on the aforementioned debate.

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    • Apparition of Dusk wrote:


      That just doesn't change Toriyama's actual involvement.

      > And still, the entire concept of 'canon' is meaningless, though. But at the very least, it could shut up those who decide arguing about what is and isn't is somehow more stimulating than discussing any actual merits or flaws of a series.

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    • Speaking on actual merits of each series, with exclusion to the OVA fight I would say that Super's animation isn't as good as GT's. 


      I wouldn't expect them to continue cell animating the series to keep the 'feel' but it seems whatever that Z 'feel' that was once there was gone. 

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    • GTapologist wrote:

      > And still, the entire concept of 'canon' is meaningless, though. But at the very least, it could shut up those who decide arguing about what is and isn't is somehow more stimulating than discussing any actual merits or flaws of a series.

      I'm not speaking for myself. I'm speaking for others who actually do care for that, given I started with the fact that GT made things far more complicated than they needed to be, for those who DID care about what was 'canon' or not. Apologies if this is a 'tad condescending, but reading comprehension is generally required to engage in conversation. I even said what I meant in the latter half  of exactly what you're quoting. And further, it was all from someone who thought those debates 'wouldn't change' regardless, but of course, at least they'd be relegated to, hell, I don't know, only in-so-far as to whether harmless things like the rock-throwing scene were 'canon', which is far less vitrolic of a debate than GT usually ends up being.

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    • Dude you've been condensending from the beginning it's hilaarious. 

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    • I know you're acting like you don't care, but you clearly do, otherwise you wouldn't have bothered to post.

      So you don't like GT and wish it never happened. Okay good. Stop writing poorly written college essays about how much better you are then us because you're above this conversation you are actively participating in. Your thesises need work, and you need to provide some real citations instead of telling me about them, Grade D-. Go back to your Wesleyan University english 101 class. I know big words make you seem smarter, but anyone can open a thesaurus. 

      We were having a enjoyable discussion about super vs GT, before you tried to diminish us by telling us we were kids. 

      So miss me with that reply you're writing

      So that being said. I would like to go back to the actual topic because even that probably won't get through to you because you lack the comprehension to realize what I'm saying.

      You are right GTapologist the animation in Gt was alot better then supers, cell animation is a lost art form these days, they should bring it back.

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    • Ehh, I understand how much money it would have cost to animate it like that though, if anything if they changed the palette just a little it would look better.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Ehh, I understand how much money it would have cost to animate it like that though, if anything if they changed the palette just a little it would look better.

      The color scheme definitely could've used some work. I prefer the ones from dragon ball and z. The colors are much brighter and it definitely helped visually.

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    • I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      Jiren is almost weaker than spirit bomb base form goku with ultra-full-power-saiyan-4 abilities. (Ultra Instinct)


      He's essentially old news already, though Gogeta shouldn't fight him when Ledgic would be enough.

      Again. Your mistaken. Jiren didn't get harmed at all from the Spirit Bomb. Gogeta was just as mere as going SSB against Jiren. Oh, wait. Ultra Instinct is more quicker and doesn't have SS4 abilities.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

      The lack of an interesting background definitely killed the visual, the best part of the arc is when Trunks fights black and zamsu at their hot topic getway lodge. 

      and that's the only bit that's comparable to GT

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    • I guess this isn't the most popular thing to say but the CG Tournament stage is also really boring to look at, though when the action is high paced that's almost as unnoticeable as the stage being made of the canonically strongest material ever.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

      The lack of an interesting background definitely killed the visual, the best part of the arc is when Trunks fights black and zamsu at their hot topic getway lodge. 

      and that's the only bit that's comparable to GT

      The future is in ruins. OBVIOUSLY it would remain the same for Goku Black Arc. What are you supposed to do?

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    • The world was in ruins during the Baby arc and the backround was still interesting. 

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      The world was in ruins during the Baby arc and the backround was still interesting. 

      But the future wasn't as ruined in the Baby arc than the Goku Black Arc.

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    • There is one thing GT did better than Super. Even though it's laughably inferior in terms of power, SS4 does look cooler than blue.

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

      The lack of an interesting background definitely killed the visual, the best part of the arc is when Trunks fights black and zamsu at their hot topic getway lodge. 

      and that's the only bit that's comparable to GT

      The future is in ruins. OBVIOUSLY it would remain the same for Goku Black Arc. What are you supposed to do?

      You're telling me the sky had to be olive drab the whole time? There couldn't have been any sunlight? In Gt when omega shenron destroys the city the sky at least adds some color and in Z with the androids, same deal. the backgrounds are more visually interesting then drab colored buildings on drab colored background of the black arc

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      There is one thing GT did better than Super. Even though it's laughably inferior in terms of power, SS4 does look cooler than blue.

      You sure about that power thing, I feel like ssj4 won more of it's fights. 


      Maybe I think that because it's debut meant something.

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    • That's what I love about the power scaling in GT, Omega is so fucking powerful... that he can mostly destroy a city.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      That's what I love about the power scaling in GT, Omega is so fucking powerful... that he can mostly destroy a city.

      If you think that is the limit of his power them you are sorely mistaken. This is a series where destroying a planet is childs play. Omega is probably on par with Beerus.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      That's what I love about the power scaling in GT, Omega is so fucking powerful... that he can mostly destroy a city.
      If you think that is the limit of his power them you are sorely mistaken. This is a series where destroying a planet is childs play. Omega is probably on par with Beerus.

      The existance of Omega Shenron's energy was going to erode the entire universe on it's own. Beerus is probably on Syn's level.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

      The lack of an interesting background definitely killed the visual, the best part of the arc is when Trunks fights black and zamsu at their hot topic getway lodge. 

      and that's the only bit that's comparable to GT

      The future is in ruins. OBVIOUSLY it would remain the same for Goku Black Arc. What are you supposed to do?
      You're telling me the sky had to be olive drab the whole time? There couldn't have been any sunlight? In Gt when omega shenron destroys the city the sky at least adds some color and in Z with the androids, same deal. the backgrounds are more visually interesting then drab colored buildings on drab colored background of the black arc

      First of all, we didn't really SEE it when it was happening. I mean, what are you thinking? ._. If you are talking about GT, it was ALWAYS daylight. ALWAYS. Super? More darker, Darker clouds, intense battles. Gt's was....fine. Hardly intense with Gogeta playing around. Goku's was awesome. Now- Vegito should've lasten longer due to screen time. Easy.

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    • Super sounds kind of edgy.

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

      The lack of an interesting background definitely killed the visual, the best part of the arc is when Trunks fights black and zamsu at their hot topic getway lodge. 

      and that's the only bit that's comparable to GT

      The future is in ruins. OBVIOUSLY it would remain the same for Goku Black Arc. What are you supposed to do?
      You're telling me the sky had to be olive drab the whole time? There couldn't have been any sunlight? In Gt when omega shenron destroys the city the sky at least adds some color and in Z with the androids, same deal. the backgrounds are more visually interesting then drab colored buildings on drab colored background of the black arc
      First of all, we didn't really SEE it when it was happening. I mean, what are you thinking? ._. If you are talking about GT, it was ALWAYS daylight. ALWAYS. Super? More darker, Darker clouds, intense battles. Gt's was....fine. Hardly intense with Gogeta playing around. Goku's was awesome. Now- Vegito should've lasten longer due to screen time. Easy.
      I don't think you understand what I'm saying, I'm saying there are examples of backgrounds that don't look boring like in the black arc. for example, Look at how much better The background looks in the trunks shot, compared to the vegeta shot.  
      Vegeta vs black
      -Future-Trunks-vs-Android-18-dragon-ball-z-38925444-500-281
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    • That's two shades of yellow against each other, in what twisted world is that more interesting? Yellow and yellow are not contrasting colours. A sunset isn't suspensful.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      I like GT's darker color palette, the sky usually is colored well to have the characters stand out against it. 

      Unlike the Goku Black arc.

      The lack of an interesting background definitely killed the visual, the best part of the arc is when Trunks fights black and zamsu at their hot topic getway lodge. 

      and that's the only bit that's comparable to GT

      The future is in ruins. OBVIOUSLY it would remain the same for Goku Black Arc. What are you supposed to do?
      You're telling me the sky had to be olive drab the whole time? There couldn't have been any sunlight? In Gt when omega shenron destroys the city the sky at least adds some color and in Z with the androids, same deal. the backgrounds are more visually interesting then drab colored buildings on drab colored background of the black arc
      First of all, we didn't really SEE it when it was happening. I mean, what are you thinking? ._. If you are talking about GT, it was ALWAYS daylight. ALWAYS. Super? More darker, Darker clouds, intense battles. Gt's was....fine. Hardly intense with Gogeta playing around. Goku's was awesome. Now- Vegito should've lasten longer due to screen time. Easy.
      I don't think you understand what I'm saying, I'm saying there are examples of backgrounds that don't look boring like in the black arc. for example, Look at how much better The background looks in the trunks shot, compared to the vegeta shot.  
      Vegeta vs black
      -Future-Trunks-vs-Android-18-dragon-ball-z-38925444-500-281

      Thanks! :)

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      That's two shades of yellow against each other, in what twisted world is that more interesting? Yellow and yellow are not contrasting colours. A sunset isn't suspensful.

      In what world is Dark green and a few shades lighter of dark green more visually interesting?

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    • Because the background has to work with the foreground. If you're watching the show for what's happening behind the characters, maybe it would be better turn off the tv and go stare at a painting.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Because the background has to work with the foreground. If you're watching the show for what's happening behind the characters, maybe it would be better turn off the tv and go stare at a painting.

      That's what i was saying. I was enjoying the visuals of the foreground but I feel that are ultimately detracted from because of the lame background. I am saying that the background is making the foreground less interesting. My favorite fight in the whole arc is the whole arc is ssj Rage Trunks fighting Black and Zamasu at their edgy log cabin. The background serves as a good foil to the Foregrounds and the fight feels more visually interesting.

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    • I think Super sucks because the log cabin was underutilized, we never even saw what was inside.


      Seriously, Isn't it a bit weird the sun never comes up in the future though?

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      I think Super sucks because the log cabin was underutilized, we never even saw what was inside.


      Seriously, Isn't it a bit weird the sun never comes up in the future though?

      You don't need to see the inside. It's the villains that matter, and not the cabin.

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    • That's a lie, I believe whatever was inside that log cabin would have offically added a second dimention to Zamasu's character.

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      GTapologist wrote:
      I think Super sucks because the log cabin was underutilized, we never even saw what was inside.


      Seriously, Isn't it a bit weird the sun never comes up in the future though?

      You don't need to see the inside. It's the villains that matter, and not the cabin.

      But don't you wonder what's inside.

      Like did Black and Zamasu have a hot topic or a Journey in there?

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    • They had each other in there, and that's what matters <3

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    • NervousShipper, don't act like you know if there was one bed or two in there.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      NervousShipper, don't act like you know if there was one bed or two in there.

      True. The two DON'T date! THEY'RE Villains!

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    • Are you saying villians can't find love?

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    • It's not dating, it's masturbation.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      Are you saying villians can't find love?

      Villians don't feel "empathy" (Isle of the Lost), do they? I mean, DO Dragon Ball VILLIANS date? A very UNLIKELY chance.

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    • Killing all of humanity is stressful. Sometimes you need some help talking off the edge. 

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    • Iso33 wrote:
      Edmang161 wrote:
      Are you saying villians can't find love?
      Villians don't feel "empathy" (Isle of the Lost), do they? I mean, DO Dragon Ball VILLIANS date? A very UNLIKELY chance.

      Well I mean Black and Zamasu clearly had something more then a platonic partnership. 

      They were brothers by day, lovers by night. 

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    • Who says empathy is needed for love, both Zamasu and Black are narcissists, they reflect what they love about themselves. 


      Meanwhile Mira and Towa are a canon couple.

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    • Edmang161 wrote:
      Killing all of humanity is stressful. Sometimes you need some help talking off the edge. 

      Talking...er...edgy.....

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    • Besides, if there's anyone Black and Zamasu could empathise with, it's themselves.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Besides, if there's anyone Black and Zamasu could empathise with, it's themselves.

      Of course. Villains want to think they are the big bad. 

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    • ... No, because the easiest feelings to understand are those possessed by your alternate universe self.

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    • And sometimes the easiest person to love is yourself

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    • Especially if you prefer a hands on approach.

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    • Especially if you watch too many Goku videos on godtube but are also a narcissist

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      There is one thing GT did better than Super. Even though it's laughably inferior in terms of power, SS4 does look cooler than blue.

      Yeah, SSJB is bassicly a SSJ1 recolor, how lame, but then again we can see a green SSJ

      SSJ4 brings the monkey form in saiyans, and Goku looks like Simba from Lion king in that form

      I would love to see Pan going SSJ4

      Sadly the theory of armored saiyan keeping their upper armors in this form was now debulked with the release of Bardock SSJ4..............or does it?

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    • They just have to rebulk the armor for ssj4.

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    • GTapologist wrote:
      They just have to rebulk the armor for ssj4.

      Why since it shouldn't even be destroyed?

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    • SSB is a combination of SSG and SS. It would obviously be colored that way.

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