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  • Hello, everyone. So a lot of people have a hard time understanding this movie because they haven't watched the original version of the movie. There's a lot of misconception floating around on the internet and it's getting ridiculous when everything is clearly explained in the JAP version of the movie. All the pictures I'm showing you come from the movie.

    Does Broly even remember Goku as a baby?

    Movie 8 - Dragon Ball Z: Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan

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    Part 1 - Broly knowing Kakarot/Goku's name

    A good indication that Broly might remember Goku would be him knowing Goku's name... as long as adult Broly doesn't hear his name before addressing Goku in the movie.

    So, what happens in the movie?

    Goku's first interaction with Broly happens around 20 minutes and 25 seconds into the movie. Goku is already in New Vegeta and is sitting on a hallway when Vegeta, Paragus and Broly pass by Goku. Goku addresses Vegeta, and Vegeta responds, calling him "Kakarot" while Broly is within earshot. After that, Vegeta and Paragus continue to walk on by Goku, but Broly stops, faces Goku for a minute and then leaves after Paragus strengthens his mind control.

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    In other words, the movie shows us that Broly had the opportunity to learn Goku's name by hearing what Vegeta said before ever addressing Goku. Therefore, Broly knowing Goku's name is not an indication that he remembers Goku at all.

    Part 2 - Broly's reaction to Goku

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    Another good indication that Broly might remember Goku is how he reacts to him in the movie. Broly has an obvious reaction to Goku in the movie, but does the movie actually try to explain that reaction with the fact that Broly remembers Goku and/or that Goku's crying as a baby is the cause for the reaction, or does the movie offer other explanations?

    Let's see.

    Throughout the entire movie, only one character talks about Broly's reaction to Goku, trying to make sense of it, with no other character ever addressing it. That character is Paragus.

    As stated, Goku's first interaction with Broly happens around 20 minutes and 25 seconds into the movie. After that encounter, Paragus has his mind-control device checked out, and he is told that the device is working fine.

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    Then, at 22 minutes and 39 seconds into the movie, Paragus, knowing that the device is working starts to wonder why Broly had that reaction.

    This is what he says:

    Paragus: "Could it be Kakarot? Does this mean that Broly's instints as a Saiyan have been awakened by Kakarot's power and he is starting to overcome the limits of my control?"

    This speculation seems to be not only aimed at Paragus himself, but also at the audience. In other words, it seems to be expositional in nature, meaning that the movie is offering the audience the explanation through Paragus' speculation and Paragus never says or implies that Broly remembers Kakarot.

    *Interesting thing in Dokkan Battle Paragus exactly says the same thing

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    That being the case, it seems that the movie doesn't actually explain Broly's reaction with Broly remembering Goku or with Goku's crying making Broly mad. In fact, it straight up offers another explanation: that Broly reacted that way because Goku's power stimulated his saiyans instincts and, because of that, he started fighting off his mind-control.

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    Therefore, my conclusion can only be that Broly's reaction to Goku is not an indication that he remembers Goku at all or even an indication that Goku's crying affected Broly at all since that's not the explanation provided.

    Part 3 - The baby Goku crying flashback 

    Another indication that Broly might remember Goku is the crying flashback. The movie seems to put a significant amount of importance on that flashback and it's possible to interpret that scene as an important part of why Broly remembers Goku or even hates him. But does the movie shows us that to be the case?

    At 23 minutes and 1 second into the movie, Paragus, after speculating on why Broly reacted to Goku in that fashion, thinks back to how Broly was, how he put him under control and he even thinks about Broly and Goku as babies, and we, the audience, get flashbacks of these events alongside his narration, leaving no doubt that the information is meant for the audience and is expositional in nature. Here's what Paragus had to say about Broly and Goku as babies:

    Paragus: "Broly and Kakarot were born on the same day, one right after the other. If it is Kakarot...", "Damn, the threads of destiny have once again intertwined here, have they? The two infants, born on the same day and laid down in adjoining beds..."

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    Paragus never says or implies that their meeting as babies or that Goku's crying had any part in causing Broly's reaction or that Broly might remember Goku because of it. Instead, he seems to just be saying that it's a twist of fate, of destiny, that they were born on the same day and were right beside each other as babies and that they are now in that situation. The point of his statement seems to be to emphasize the marking of destiny, of fate, imprinted upon their meeting, and not on Broly remembering Goku or Goku's crying affecting Broly.

    Therefore, in regards to Paragus and the crying flashback, my conclusion can only be that there is no indication in it that Broly remembers Goku or that Goku's crying affected Broly at all.

    However, besides that, we also get two unknown guys in the flashback commenting on Broly and Goku as babies, and this is what they have to say:

    "I'm shocked by Paragus' son. He's just been born, and yet his battle power is already 10.000." "Bardock's son, with a battle power of only 2, made Paragus' son cry!" "His battle power may be low, but that kid who they named Kakarrot at least has a lot of guts!"

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    So, what can we take from these statements? They seem to stress the difference in their power and how Goku was still able to affect Broly despite of this. But can we take from these statements that Goku's crying played a part on Broly's reaction despite what Paragus said and his expositional lines? What are the point of these statements if not?

    I believe the movie answers this question 1 hour, 8 minutes and 24 seconds into the movie when Broly is being defeated by Goku and the crying flashback, once again, is played. It seems to be at this moment that the statements made by those two unknown guys gain meaning. As they said, baby Goku was much weaker than baby Broly, but he still found a way to disturb him with his cry. And isn't that basically what happened in the fight in the movie? Goku was much weaker, but he still found a way to disturb and beat Broly, by cumulating the power of his friends with his own and striking back.

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    The guys that made this movie chose to repeat that flashback as Broly was being defeated and I see no other plausible justification for that than giving meaning to the words of those two unkowns. That means that the crying flashback works as foreshadowing and a metaphor for the fight between Broly and Goku, and not as the cause for Broly's actions towards Goku. Even though it's possible to interpret the flashback in that way, the statements of those two unknowns don't say or imply by themselves that Broly remembers Goku or that he became crazy due to Goku's crying, and in conjunction with the rest of the movie, namely the repetition of the flashback as Broly is being defeated, I am forced to conclude that those statements are not an indication that Broly remembers Goku or that Goku's crying made Broly mad

    If Broly at any time during the movie said anything that might imply that he remembers Goku, or even that he is mad at him because of something in the past, that would be a good indication. However, throughout the movie, in all his lines, Broly never says anything that implies such. Therefore, nothing that Broly says serves as an indication that he remembers Goku.

    Conclusions:

    Unless the subtitles of the version of the movie I watched are completely wrong (which I highly doubt), I see nothing, whatsoever, in the movie that actually supports the notion that Broly remembers Goku as a baby. Nor do I see anything that supports the notion that Goku's crying made Broly mad and that that is the cause of Broly's reaction to Goku. The movie flat-out tells the audience why Broly had that reaction through Paragus in what seems to be, undoubtedly, expositional lines. And as for the crying flashback, nothing in the movie implies that the flashback means that the crying is the cause of the reaction or that Broly remembers Goku because of it, and we have Paragus mentioning it simply to point out what a twist of fate it is and the scene being used by the movie itself as both foreshadowing and a metaphor for the fight.

    I'll also add this:

    Nowhere in the first movie it is stated or implied that Broly "hates" anyone, except King Vegeta (and maybe Vegeta too because when Vegeta charged at him, Broly said "Hmph! I'm not going to let you die so easily!" which proves he doesn't like him at all but he probably didn't care about Vegeta because he was much weaker than Goku) 

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    Note:

    His reaction to Goku is explained by Paragus when he says: ""Could it be Kakarot? Does this mean that Broly's instints as a Saiyan have been awakened by Kakarot's power and he is starting to overcome the limits of my control?". That's the explanation. Goku's power is stimulating Broly's saiyan instincts. That's it.

    As for why Broly is so keen to destroy, kill and be evil in general, that is also answered in the movie 23 minutes and 32 seconds in, with Paragus saying: "Broly was the very model of a saiyan. As he began to develop, the extraordinary battle power he was born with increased and turned savage as I, his father, felt terror towards him". In other words, his overwhelming power is what is makes him act savagely.

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    But wait, there's more...

    Movie 10 - Dragon Ball Z: Broly - Second Coming

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    However, Movie 8 is not the only Broly movie. It's without a doubt the most significant Broly movie, but not the only one. Do the other two movies change the answers and conclusions reached with the analysis of movie 8?

    Let's find out.

    The two relevant aspects of movie 10 in regards to the topic at hand are the circumstances behind Broly's awakening and his reaction to Goten and Gohan. The movie starts with a wounded Broly that has managed to survive, reached Earth and is obviously angry at Goku for being defeated and almost killed.  He then remains frozen and comatose on a kind of frozen lake or iceberg while still recovering.

    He remains in that situation until Goten starts to yell and cry. Those yells and cries apparently reach the ears of a frozen and comatose Broly, who reacts to it, and the audience is presented with flashbacks to baby Goku crying and the final events of movie 8, and Broly starts to wake up.

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    https://img11.hostingpics.net/pics/1151289610.jpg What conclusions can we draw from these events?

    Well, in my opinion, this is the first sign that Broly actually manages to remember Goku crying as a baby, and the first real piece of info that might support the theory/interpretation that Broly reacts to Goku in that fashion because he remembers him and/or his crying made him mad.

    But, is it the most logical interpretation and is it really what the movie is trying to tell us? If we answered this question with yes, that would mean that this movie is trying to go against the explanations offered in the last movie by Paragus. Is that what the movie is trying to do with this scene?

    In my opinion, no, it isn't.

    Broly is frozen and in a coma and even though the movie seems to be telling us that Broly is indeed managing to remember baby Goku thanks to Goten's yells and cries that sound remarkably like him, that doesn't mean that Broly actually remembered baby Goku before that moment in time (aka in movie 8 ).

    Furthermore, the movie links that crying with the final events of movie 8, when Broly had a hole punched in his chest by Goku, showing those flashbacks in sequence. Therefore, the most logical interpretation is that it's not the crying and remembering the crying that is upsetting Broly and eventually manages to wake him up, but how all that is making him remember how he was defeated and almost killed by Goku in a very painful way.

    Unlike the previous movie, where Broly didn't actually hate Goku and was just stimulated by his power into action as was clearly stated in the movie itself, in this movie Broly has every reason to hate Goku due to what he did to him in movie 8, and he does hate him and everything that has to do with him.

    This is where Goten enters since he not only looks like Goku but he also sounds like Goku, even in his yells and cries, and this is also where Broly's reaction to Goten and Gohan fits in.

    Broly, later on the movie, has obvious reactions to them, while yelling many times Goku's name. But all that just means that he is very focused and very angry with Goku, it doesn't tell us why he is that angry and focused on Goku. And it seems obvious that he is more focused and angry with Goku than he ever was. Why is that? The plausible answer is the events of movie 8, namely his painful defeat. Meaning that what drives Broly in this movie and motivates him and his anger is what happened in movie 8. Even though he remembered baby Goku crying while he was comatose and frozen, that's not what, ultimately, drove him, even in this movie.

    Conclusions:

    While he does appear that Broly manages to remember baby Goku while in a coma and frozen, this fact doesn't act as his motivation for his actions in the movie. Rather, it's the events of movie 8. And the fact that he remembered doesn't contradict the previous conclusions regarding movie 8 because nothing is suggesting or implying that he remembered him during the events of movie 8.

    However, in regards to the topic at hand, aka "Does Broly even remember Goku as a baby?", the answer with this movie becomes more nuanced, meaning that the answer should be that during the events of movie 8 Broly didn't remember it (because nothing suggests he did), but he does seem to remember it, at least briefly, during the events of movie 10.

    In any case, in both movies, there is never the suggestion or implication that it's the actual crying and its memory that drives Broly. From the conjunction of the two movies and the flashback to Goku defeating Broly, what actually seems to be his motivations are the final events of movie 8 which justify his obsessive focus and anger towards Goku and everything that reminds him of Goku.

    by: rereboy

    So Broly in the first movie is only interested in battles, that's his motivation (a violent, powerful, bloodthirsty warrior)

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    and in the second coming he wants to get his revenge because he got defeated by Goku, that's all. Goku's crying never been a motivation for Broly.

    ______________________________

    "It's a writing tool that is incredibly common. It's called Chekhov's gun, and it is a way of communicating things to an audience without directly stating it.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chekhov%27s_gun

    In this case, Goku's inclusion in that scene with Broly is intentional and very obvious. It implies that Goku's presence and his persistent crying upset Broly, and since we see Broly get stabbed right afterwards, the audience is able to quickly connect that the annoying cry we heard was attached to Broly's intense pain at being stabbed. It causes part of his anger towards Goku.

    I'm not saying that Goku's power is not another reason for Broly's obsession with Goku. However, the anger and hatred originated in that bedchamber where Broly got stabbed. As a literary device, the author is literally shoving it down your throat."

    reply :

    "Chekhov's gun is a principle of storytelling (not a necessity) and it merely speaks against having elements in a story that are irrelevant and don't amount to anything in the end. That isn't really violated here in that way because Goku's crying is not irrelevant for the story at all. It's used thematically, as a metaphor, for the relationship between Goku and Broly, and it fully develops in the conclusion of the fight between them when the audience understands the parallel between the metaphor and the conclusion of the fight, as I've explained in my post.


    There are countless movies, series, books, and so on that have elements in them that reinforce the themes of the story or the characters on various levels, and without which the stories would still make sense, but the themes just wouldn't come across as strongly. This is the case with Goku's crying. 

    Let's imagine that the movie didn't show baby Goku crying next to baby Broly in the flashback but the rest was the same. The story would still work and it would still be largely the same, since Paragus would still say that Broly was triggered by Goku's power and so we would have the explanation for Broly's reaction to Goku. What would actually change would be that the theme that the movie had for Goku and Broly, with their encounter being a fated encounter, and with Goku, despite being weaker, managing to affect Broly despite his power, one way or another, which is how their fight concludes, would not come across as strongly or wouldn't come across.

    That's what would be lost, not the explanation for why Broly reacted that way to Goku. That explanation, if we remove the whole scene of baby Goku crying, would still be there in the movie, with Paragus telling the audience that it was Goku's power that caused it. This is so because the scene of baby Goku crying never actually contradicts what Paragus said, as I've fully explained in my post. Sure, it's possible to interpret it differently, and interpret it as contradicting what Paragus said, but I don't believe that to be the most logical interpretation because there are stronger indicators pointing towards it being a deliberate metaphor to reinforce the theme and establish the parallel between the situation and their relationship and the end of their fight.

    In other words, what the author is literally "shoving down our throats" is the parallel between the metaphor of baby Goku crying managing to affect baby Broly despite their power difference, and adult Goku managing to affect and beat adult Broly despite the power difference. It's an obvious parallel to strongly show the audience the theme of their relationship. As for why Broly reacted that way when he met Goku, the explanation is freely offered to the audience and never actually contradicted: Goku's power stimulated him enough to start breaking his mind control, which, as a saiyan, and not just any saiyan, but the saiyan that is most in tune with his saiyan instincts because that's what the LSSJ represents, makes perfect sense considering how strong Goku was in this period, despite still being weaker than Broly. It's probably the only one that Broly has met that even came close to Broly's power."

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    • It's a nice interpretation of the film. I like people who try to delve in to a simple lore and show that the story is actually a mixture of complexity and intelligence as well as symbolism. Broly from what I see from your interpretation like Kevin 11 from Ben 10. In which power is the reason why these mutants drive these characters insane. It also makes Goku less of a Gary Stu and an actual likeable character in which he is good at everything except common knowledge. Seriously, Goku is good at everything he just suffers the same fish out of water cliche as Wonder Woman. But for Goku, Toriyama and Toei stretch it out for decades even though it is not funny anymore. 

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    • SuperBen 1000000 wrote:
      It's a nice interpretation of the film. I like people who try to delve in to a simple lore and show that the story is actually a mixture of complexity and intelligence as well as symbolism. Broly from what I see from your interpretation like Kevin 11 from Ben 10. In which power is the reason why these mutants drive these characters insane. It also makes Goku less of a Gary Stu and an actual likeable character in which he is good at everything except common knowledge. Seriously, Goku is good at everything he just suffers the same fish out of water cliche as Wonder Woman. But for Goku, Toriyama and Toei stretch it out for decades even though it is not funny anymore. 

      that's not my interpretation, i just C/P the analysis and added the pictures. I thought it'd be nice to share it with the others, because this is what the movie tells you... as you can see once broly got free of his father's control he was pretty stable ... there's a big difference from M8 broly and M10 Broly who is only filled with hatred and is angrier than ever and people just don't understand that ... i understand people might find him dumb because he only screams kakarrot in the second movie but at least he has a good reason to hate goku there, he only becomes a brainless monster in M10 (but like i said he has a good reason to become angrier). The hate absolutely drove him crazy in the second coming and the way he acts is pretty understandable.

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    • BrolyKale wrote:

      SuperBen 1000000 wrote:
      It's a nice interpretation of the film. I like people who try to delve in to a simple lore and show that the story is actually a mixture of complexity and intelligence as well as symbolism. Broly from what I see from your interpretation like Kevin 11 from Ben 10. In which power is the reason why these mutants drive these characters insane. It also makes Goku less of a Gary Stu and an actual likeable character in which he is good at everything except common knowledge. Seriously, Goku is good at everything he just suffers the same fish out of water cliche as Wonder Woman. But for Goku, Toriyama and Toei stretch it out for decades even though it is not funny anymore. 

      that's not my interpretation, i just C/P the analysis and added the pictures. I thought it'd be nice to share it with the others, because this is what the movie tells you... as you can see once broly got free of his father's control he was pretty stable ... there's a big difference from M8 broly and M10 Broly who is only filled with hatred and is angrier than ever and people just don't understand that ... i understand people might find him dumb because he only screams kakarrot in the second movie but at least he has a good reason to hate goku there, he only becomes a brainless monster in M10 (but like i said he has a good reason to become angrier). The hate absolutely drove him crazy in the second coming and the way he acts is pretty understandable.

      Yeah, agreed. In fact, if I remember correctly, didn't the Japanese version actually have Broly outright compliment his foes (and not in the grudging manner) for even having the guts to fight him despite it being hopeless at one point, including Goku? That doesn't sound like a guy who even hates Goku, especially regarding Movie 8.

      BTW, speaking of Japanese comparisons, think you can post the screencaps with subtitles of where Paragus explains his motives for wanting revenge on Vegeta? Only reason I'm asking is because the dub implies that the horrific events of his birth also played a massive factor into Broly being driven mad, not to mention living in isolation for the past thirty years (Paragus essentially says "Now you will suffer the pain and fear we had to endure for so long, and then you will die."), and I want to see if the Japanese version had a similar implication. Not to mention Shin Budokai definitely implies he remembered Frieza's blowing up Vegeta and if anything is amused at the irony that he essentially owes Frieza his life.

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    • Weedle McHairybug wrote:

      BrolyKale wrote:


      SuperBen 1000000 wrote:
      It's a nice interpretation of the film. I like people who try to delve in to a simple lore and show that the story is actually a mixture of complexity and intelligence as well as symbolism. Broly from what I see from your interpretation like Kevin 11 from Ben 10. In which power is the reason why these mutants drive these characters insane. It also makes Goku less of a Gary Stu and an actual likeable character in which he is good at everything except common knowledge. Seriously, Goku is good at everything he just suffers the same fish out of water cliche as Wonder Woman. But for Goku, Toriyama and Toei stretch it out for decades even though it is not funny anymore. 
      that's not my interpretation, i just C/P the analysis and added the pictures. I thought it'd be nice to share it with the others, because this is what the movie tells you... as you can see once broly got free of his father's control he was pretty stable ... there's a big difference from M8 broly and M10 Broly who is only filled with hatred and is angrier than ever and people just don't understand that ... i understand people might find him dumb because he only screams kakarrot in the second movie but at least he has a good reason to hate goku there, he only becomes a brainless monster in M10 (but like i said he has a good reason to become angrier). The hate absolutely drove him crazy in the second coming and the way he acts is pretty understandable.
      Yeah, agreed. In fact, if I remember correctly, didn't the Japanese version actually have Broly outright compliment his foes (and not in the grudging manner) for even having the guts to fight him despite it being hopeless at one point, including Goku? That doesn't sound like a guy who even hates Goku, especially regarding Movie 8.

      BTW, speaking of Japanese comparisons, think you can post the screencaps with subtitles of where Paragus explains his motives for wanting revenge on Vegeta? Only reason I'm asking is because the dub implies that the horrific events of his birth also played a massive factor into Broly being driven mad, not to mention living in isolation for the past thirty years (Paragus essentially says "Now you will suffer the pain and fear we had to endure for so long, and then you will die."), and I want to see if the Japanese version had a similar implication. Not to mention Shin Budokai definitely implies he remembered Frieza's blowing up Vegeta and if anything is amused at the irony that he essentially owes Frieza his life.

      Yep. This is what he says to Goku, Gohan and Trunks "You could have gotten off just being killed like good boys, you didn't have to meet with such a painful fate! I'll give you credit for being every bit Saiyans." if he really hated goku he wouldn't even say that, he wouldn't even talk with anyone in the first place (just like in second movie).


      this is what Paragus says to Vegeta:

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    • This makes me wonder why the idea that Broly hated Goku because of his crying even started.  Paragus says that it's otherwise, so why do people still believe the former?  

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    • Broly's a mentally fractured and hinded being. His hatred of Goku because of his crying is him focusing on that as the catylist for his trauma he experienced as an infant from being stabbed, on top of the insomina he suffed from Goku's crying that happened for days on end.

      Severe insomina can stunt the brain's development and growth especally at infancy. Which is important for babys at that stage to sleep, to help them grow. Broly was never able to nurture that.

      On the other hand, his lssj form that was placed on him geneticlly as well by evolution hinded it even further due to it's overwelming power on his body that enhanced his negative emotions to unbearable levels for him at the cost of his mentally. The strain of the power as it grows while he stayed in that form mentally weaken him. His hatred of Goku's crying keeps him focused to stay in that form.

      Eventally Broly would have lost all mentallity and become as mindless as kid buu, which is why he had to be put out of his misery.



      Ultimately Broly's story is a somewhat tragic one, as he never was able to escape his predetermined purpose that was placed on him by creation and his terrible childhood. Like Goku could from his because he grew up under care and love while being taught how to hone not only his skills, but his spirit as well. Something Broly never got to experience and accept.

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    • Broli was driven insane as a child by the fear of Frieza and his army finding him and his father. I think that info was stated in the Daizenshuu.. Kakarot's crying only helped him build his rage enough to where he went Super Saiyan as Frieza blew up Planet Vegeta.. another tidbit that comes from Daizenshuu. Broly became unstable and his powers just kept growing and growing, so with those two factors Paragus decided to control him before he detroyed every other universe. 

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    • Speaking of things tangeantly related to Broly, why can't GT or Future Trunks moon someone already?

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    • A FANDOM user
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