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  • In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?

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    • SSJB of course, Xeno Goku and Vegeta are just really powerful.

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    • Cunber is not defeated yet.

      And Super Sayan Blue is stronger than Super Sayan 4

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    • SSB Vegito failed to beat him in a form that's equivalent to SS4, but OK.

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    • I think what we can say now is, A) I was wrong. B) SSj4 and SSB are at similar power levels/the same tier. C) Vegito and Gogeta have different hair from each other in SSj4 form for no reason.

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    • SSB and SS4 are basically the same level of power, Golden Great Ape cumber is 10x stronger than his ss3 form.

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:
      In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?

      Super Saiyan 4 for the win.

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    • DrWhofan7 wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote:
      In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?

      Super Saiyan 4 for the win.

      How when SSJBKK took on GG Cumber which is way stronger than SSJ3

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    • Yeah, I can also take on Mike Tyson. Just ignore the fact that I lose.

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    • DrWhofan7
      DrWhofan7 removed this reply because:
      moving it.
      22:01, October 29, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      DrWhofan7 wrote:


      XIII13Hero wrote:
      In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?
      Super Saiyan 4 for the win.
      How when SSJBKK took on GG Cumber which is way stronger than SSJ3

      because SSJ4 would need 4 saiyans to make it more stronger, just like in GT.

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    • How does Great Ape + Super Saiyan + not being an animal > Super Saiyan GOD + Super Saiyan  ?

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    • SS4 and SSB are about the same in power, they just have different benefits and drawbacks. Golden Great Ape Cumber is 10x stronger than SS3 Cumber btw..

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    • I know they are, I just don't understand why they are. It's saying that Great Ape and Super Saiyan God are equal in power.

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    • Golden Great Ape is 10x Super Saiyan 3's level of power. It isn't far fetched to say that Super Saiyan God is 10x SS3's level of power. Super Saiyan 4 is a transformation FROM Golden Great Ape that apparently makes it 10x more powerful than Golden Great Ape. Super Saiyan Blue is confirmed to be about 10x stronger than Super Saiyan God. So in the end it's just a parallel, one is the path a Saiyan takes to power with God Ki, the other is the Normal Ki path to power.

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    • Yes but a Golden Great Ape is Great Ape + Super Saiyan, so how is that above GOD?

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    • Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just shortcuts to the full power of Super Saiyan. So its 400x10 equals Golden Great Ape, and apparently Super Saiyan God. 400x10x10 equals SS4 and SSB.

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    • I think we should ignore the standard multiplayers we know, since most came from kanzen and Toriyama has stated that those are exaggerated

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    • In order for Goku to be able to fight full power frieza he would of had to have a pl of 120,000,000 at minimum making the basic unmastered super saiyan multiplier 40x base power meaning Toriyama wasn't just bullshitting us and 50x for the unmastered form was indeed an exaggeration.

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    • Would *have

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    • SSB and SS4 are nowhere near the same in power. SSG alone pulled off insanely better feats than SS4 ever did. Xeno Goku is just powerful alone.

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    • Not how current media portrays it. Your opinions aren't facts, b.

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    • And the opinion of the media is a fact..?

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    • The media being fake news is fake news.

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    • The media was literally just lied about Etika attempting suicide and also lied about a bunch of Toriyama quotes a while ago-

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    • News media or new media?

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    • Media in general to be frank

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    • Most times on reddit

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    • Reddit isn't news. It's reddit.

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    • SSJB stomps SSJ4, Xeno Goku and Vegeta are just really powerful in base form. I do not know why there is a discussion about this.

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    • Because you just made that up, that's why. There is no proof for anything you just said.

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    • SSG Goku was about to destroy all of Universe 7 with just punches, and before this, Base Goku was only around Solar System Level. This alone says alot about the SSG multiplier being far above SS4, and SSB is 50x SSG.

      Beerus being there doesn't matter, considering Universe 7 is the size of multiple Universes due to including Otherworld, the Demon Realm and Hell

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    • No. Just no. Stop.

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    • According to Whis Goku at SSGod is 1/10 the power of Vegeta at SSBlue, and at the time Goku and Vegeta were equal in base form. So SSBlue is 10x SSGod.

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    • That was in the manga, which is completely different.

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    • Even then, Goku still almost destroyed the Universe in the manga.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Because you just made that up, that's why. There is no proof for anything you just said.

      I heard he is at least 6D at base, vsbattles wiki put Xeno Goku at multiverse level. Go check it out yourself, I thought people already knew this.

      Here is what is says...

      Multiverse level (Stronger than Giant Demon God Demigra, and fought on par with Demigra Makyouka, who was going to cause the collapse of the DBH Multiverse and the "Real World", in base and defeated him as a SSJ. Defeated Chamel who gained all of Demigra's powers and with his presence alone was about to collapse the Multiverse and Beat's World. One-shot Gravy as a SSJ3 who is stronger than Demigra and fought against SSJ4 Dark Broly alongside Final Form Mira as SSJ4.)

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    • I don't take vs battles wiki as a source for anything.

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    • Personally I'd take what the anime gives us. The real debate is confusing, are we discussing if SS4 or SSB is superior as a form, or SS4 Goku/Vegeta or SSB Goku/Vegeta are superior?

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    • In all honesty we can't discuss which of the two scenarios with exact fact. We can only speculate with what is shown and given and current media, and so far it seems like SS4 and SSB are the same level of power, just with different drawbacks and benefits. It seems SS4 zaps Ki more than SSBlue, but SSBlue zaps Stamina more than SS4.

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    • So then SS4 and Blue together would probably kill you quickly.

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    • SSGSS requires perfect Ki control, so if they attained that while in SSGSS4 they would not have to worry about the Ki drain.. I imagine it would be like mixing Kaioken with SSGSS in that aspect, it was really tough on Goku at first and messed him up but with time he mastered it. All this is theoretical, because SS4 is directly transformed from the Golden Great Ape form and that is a combo of SS and Great Ape so its hard to ascertain whether a Great Ape Blue etc could even happen since that would be a great ape using and controlling God Ki along with Super Saiyan.. scratch that because if he awakened each form separately then he might actually be able to make a hybrid of SSGSS and SS4 by using the same principles of acquiring and using SSGSS with SS4.. that may be possible.

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    • Then the real question becomes, is that form more or less powerful than MUI?

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    • Well SSGSS:Evolution starts at the same power as SSBlue Kaioken x20, and then it gets even stronger once Vegeta unlocks more of its power with the manga comparing its power to Ultra Instinct - Sign. I imagine that SSGSS4 would be stronger than SSGSS:Evolution. So it should maybe equal Perfect Ultra Instinct.

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    • Who knows, it might even equal mastered ultra instinct.

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    • haha all the supe fanboys trying to defend ssj Blue

      Its official now Ssj4 is stronger kids, SSj3 Canba is the strongest form hes been in since hes introduced and SSJ4 pushed him back, ssj Blue vegito lost against a lesser form.

      THATS. A. FACT.

      deal with it even toei knows how trash dbs is

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    • Everything you've just said undercuts your argument. You belittled the other side by calling them kids, you mispelled super, it's, he's twice, Vegito, and every SSJ form and you were yelling in your post while using periods instead of exclamation points. Thank you for making SSB look better.

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    • RYan Odin wrote: haha all the supe fanboys trying to defend ssj Blue

      Its official now Ssj4 is stronger kids, SSj3 Canba is the strongest form hes been in since hes introduced and SSJ4 pushed him back, ssj Blue vegito lost against a lesser form.

      THATS. A. FACT.

      deal with it even toei knows how trash dbs is

      That's bullcrap. How is Cunber in SSJ3 more powerful than Golden Great ape. It sounds like you're a GT fan and if so you should remember that SSJ3 Goku with his tail was slapped around by Baby but after he turned GGA he was beating Baby. Did you not read that in the manga SSJB Kaio-ken was beating Cunber. And no Super is not trash, its way better than GT any day. In Super there's actual character development, hardly any plot holes to the story itself, and though its not like Z other characters have their shine moments. The only real thing against Super is power scaling. GT had stories that made no sense like Black Star Dragon Balls, no character development, stupid plots, and made prominent characters that had years of development like Vegeta useless and mediocre.

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote: haha all the supe fanboys trying to defend ssj Blue

      Its official now Ssj4 is stronger kids, SSj3 Canba is the strongest form hes been in since hes introduced and SSJ4 pushed him back, ssj Blue vegito lost against a lesser form.

      THATS. A. FACT.

      deal with it even toei knows how trash dbs is

      That's bullcrap. How is Cunber in SSJ3 more powerful than Golden Great ape. It sounds like you're a GT fan and if so you should remember that SSJ3 Goku with his tail was slapped around by Baby but after he turned GGA he was beating Baby. Did you not read that in the manga SSJB Kaio-ken was beating Cunber. And no Super is not trash, its way better than GT any day. In Super there's actual character development, hardly any plot holes to the story itself, and though its not like Z other characters have their shine moments. The only real thing against Super is power scaling. GT had stories that made no sense like Black Star Dragon Balls, no character development, stupid plots, and made prominent characters that had years of development like Vegeta useless and mediocre.

      haha I think you need to research more, Super got more plotholes than GT and Z combined its even here on the wiki.

      But im not here to talk about the quality of the series, we all know that both super and GT are trash, its just that super is even trasher.

      I was never talking about golden great ape, base Canba slapped ss blue vegito around too if you remember hahaha

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    • No the plot holes on this site are dumb stuff like Trunks' hair or Krillin's height. The point is a comparison of the manga and anime. Even in the game base Cunber was losing to SSJB Goku and Vegeta. It would be one thing if the anime was on its own, but there are two other versions of this story. One clearly shows SSJB out classing SSJ4. And really the one real main source is the game since both manga and anime are promotional.

      And how is Super worse than GT? Is it because it follows Toriyama's generic shounen story telling. Despite what we DBZ fans think it was not a masterpiece work of art. It was a gag that turned into a battle manga, basic hero versus villain nothing more and nothing less. We all know it was the awesome fights that made it an icon

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    • no super is trash because its inconsistent, like when Vegeta was out of energy in one episode, fired final flashes in the next episodes and then is out of energy again in the following.

      it has no hint of creatovity or originality, the first two arcs are just the movies but worse, the third arc is stolen from dragonball multivers, the trunks arc is just the cell arc with a less interesting villain (my preference I find goku black insanely stupid in concept and zamasu allright but uninspired) anf the tournament of power was just narutos shinobi world war.

      second super got NO stakes, because it takes place before the last chapter of the manga, the tournament of power was so boring because we knew from the beginning that universe 6 would win because the end of the manga has to still happen.

      third the animation is trash, the art style got far better but the characters still barely move and of they are the moves are looped, zoomed in or worse blurred, it looks presentable but not as beautiful as Gt did (the animation in GT is fluent and gorgeous, basically the only good thing about Gt)

      I got plenty more should I go on lol

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    • Super is not trash, don't bash one thing just to try and make another better. GT had good designs and good main villains.. but really that was it. The whole Goku becoming a kid thing and Gohan no longer needing to use Ultimate Gohan state was pointless to me honestly. Other than that GT was ok. Super did drop the ball a few times with certain characters and in some of the arcs but other than that it was ok too.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Super is not trash, don't bash one thing just to try and make another better. GT had good designs and good main villains.. but really that was it. The whole Goku becoming a kid thing and Gohan no longer needing to use Ultimate Gohan state was pointless to me honestly. Other than that GT was ok. Super did drop the ball a few times with certain characters and in some of the arcs but other than that it was ok too.

      dont missunderstand me, Im not bashing on Super to defend GT, Im bashing on Super because it simply isnt good, its trash even worse than Gt, because as you said GT at least had good and consistent artwork and interesting mainvillains, super has none of those, when the animation and artwork looks good its never lasting the whole episode its only key scenes that look presentable.

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    • Super isn't trash, they did make mistakes obviously. GT has plenty of mistakes too.Goku with dark tan skin, GT Trunks with grape purple colored hair among other things hahahaha. They both had many mistakes man you just take your personal hate for Super and try and blow out all over the forums.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Super isn't trash, they did make mistakes obviously. GT has plenty of mistakes too.Goku with dark tan skin, GT Trunks with grape purple colored hair among other things hahahaha. They both had many mistakes man you just take your personal hate for Super and try and blow out all over the forums.

      like I said the trashyness of Super has nothing to do with Gt, seriously man I used to downplay it too, but if you rewatch episodes of super withou the „oh my god its a new episode of dragonball“ mindset then its just boring to watch.

      its not just made mistakes, its a mistake as a whole, because they cant make significant changes to anything because the end of Z still has to happen, setting a whole series between the last to chapters of the manga was a stupid idea and doomed the series from the start

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    • In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't watch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you want to watch for the story, if you did then you would think DBZ was dumbest thing ever. You watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

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    • XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent


      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      It's just your opinion and no one else's. 

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      It's just your opinion and no one else's. 

      haha go along kid the adults are talking

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      Rogeta234 wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      It's just your opinion and no one else's. 

      haha go along kid the adults are talking

      Judging from your language and tone, I'd say I'm the adult and you're the child.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent


      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      Yes you do watch it for fights. When someone say Dragon Ball Z even hardcore fans one of the first things that pop into their the heads is the fights, and what their favorite fights were not the moments. None thinks of Goku showing mercy, Piccolo saving Gohan, or Vegeta being taken over by Babidi you're full of shit if you think that's what people think of. And if the animation for Super is trash then so is Z and Gt cause one week you'll have and badass episode with awesome animation then next week it look like something that belongs on Spongebob. Being in denial would be me saying Super was perfect with nothing wrong about it, I accept that it had episodes with terrible animation, inconsistencies, and scenes that made no sense. And I have rewatched the Black arc loved it as much as the first time, and if you paid attention I already told you the ToP arc was pretty much boring. It was the most overhyped arc and was a let done. Stop trying to make Super sound like it was so horrible when at the end of the day it's exactly like Z.

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    • Watching DBZ/S/GT for things other than the fights is like watching pornography for the cinematography.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Watching DBZ/S/GT for things other than the fights is like watching pornography for the cinematography.

      What a dumb argument, Dragonball has so much more to offer than mediocre fight scenes

      And yes, 90% of fight scenes in Dragonball are mediocre, no choregraphy at all, lots of fist flurries, long periods of powering up (longer than necesary just to clarify).

      What makes dragonball good is the number of emotions attached to the fights, we dont want Goku to fight against freezer because it looks cool, we want them to fight because we want to see Goku bring justice to his friends, Vegeta and planet namek.

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    • If you want to pretend there's more to DB than fighting then go ahead, but that won't change the fact that's what the majority of the fandom watch it for. Emotion may ply a role but not as big as you're trying to let on.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Watching DBZ/S/GT for things other than the fights is like watching pornography for the cinematography.
      What a dumb argument, Dragonball has so much more to offer than mediocre fight scenes

      And yes, 90% of fight scenes in Dragonball are mediocre, no choregraphy at all, lots of fist flurries, long periods of powering up (longer than necesary just to clarify).

      What makes dragonball good is the number of emotions attached to the fights, we dont want Goku to fight against freezer because it looks cool, we want them to fight because we want to see Goku bring justice to his friends, Vegeta and planet namek.

      Literally only you.

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    • okay then go ahead and tell my why the fights are good Ill wait

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    • Or rather, what excactly makes a fight scene in dragonball good

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    • RYan Odin wrote:
      okay then go ahead and tell my why the fights are good Ill wait

      No one said they were good, we said that there isn't another reason to watch. If you can find emotional weight to something happening in DBZ/GT/S, then you should watch Twilight, it'll blow you away.

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    • RYan Odin wrote: Or rather, what excactly makes a fight scene in dragonball good

      Lets see it's the transformations, yelling, techniques, and blowing stuff up just to name a few. Its those clichés of DB that made it memorable. In all my life as a DB fan I have never heard anyone talk about moments of emotion. Yeah they're pivotal moments for the plot and the development as a character and there are some that stand out like Majin Vegeta blowing himself up, but moments like that don't happen all the time so in DB there is hardly is any emotion thus its watched for the battles

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote: Or rather, what excactly makes a fight scene in dragonball good

      Lets see it's the transformations, yelling, techniques, and blowing stuff up just to name a few. Its those clichés of DB that made it memorable. In all my life as a DB fan I have never heard anyone talk about moments of emotion. Yeah they're pivotal moments for the plot and the development as a character and there are some that stand out like Majin Vegeta blowing himself up, but moments like that don't happen all the time so in DB there is hardly is any emotion thus its watched for the battles

      youre looking at it just from a surface level, of course the explosions and transformations are exciting... sure, buts WHY are they exciting?

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    • There is no deeper level.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      There is no deeper level.

      in dragonball super there isnt youre right, but In OG, Z and even GT there is a subtext in every battle, a pretty minor and aín few places shallow one, but its there.

      SUper is just fighting to introduce new merchandise that idiots can buy.

      Gifting Goku and vegeta new transformations withou them having to put effort into optaining them, and Toei not putting effort into designing them.

      Its just a disgrace.

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    • No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

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    • XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

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    • Also I never said i didnt like Super

      I just said it is uninspired, unoriginal and unprofessional trash.

      Which it objectively is if you compare it to other productions of the same timeframe.

      I still have fond feelings for it because its dragonball after all.

      But that wont stop me from calling out trash when I see it.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.

      Oh ya how many episodes of training was it? 5? 10? i dont remember because the ressurection F arc was just unbearable.

      Regardless, its better than nothing ( which we got in the movie) however its still very uncreative to just let them train and get gifted a new form.

      SSJ Blue doesnt feel deserved because it came out of nowhere, it wouldve been better if the ROF moivie hadnt existed and they couldve surprised us with it, but due to them being obligated to retell the movies they had to include it and quickly rushed something together so it would.



      What Im getting at is that SSJ1 felt earned, and ssj god, blue, and even the ultra asspull didnt. they were just given away.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.

      Oh ya how many episodes of training was it? 5? 10? i dont remember because the ressurection F arc was just unbearable.

      Regardless, its better than nothing ( which we got in the movie) however its still very uncreative to just let them train and get gifted a new form.

      SSJ Blue doesnt feel deserved because it came out of nowhere, it wouldve been better if the ROF moivie hadnt existed and they couldve surprised us with it, but due to them being obligated to retell the movies they had to include it and quickly rushed something together so it would.



      What Im getting at is that SSJ1 felt earned, and ssj god, blue, and even the ultra asspull didnt. they were just given away.

      As was every other SSJ form after 1

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:


      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.
      Oh ya how many episodes of training was it? 5? 10? i dont remember because the ressurection F arc was just unbearable.

      Regardless, its better than nothing ( which we got in the movie) however its still very uncreative to just let them train and get gifted a new form.

      SSJ Blue doesnt feel deserved because it came out of nowhere, it wouldve been better if the ROF moivie hadnt existed and they couldve surprised us with it, but due to them being obligated to retell the movies they had to include it and quickly rushed something together so it would.



      What Im getting at is that SSJ1 felt earned, and ssj god, blue, and even the ultra asspull didnt. they were just given away.

      As was every other SSJ form after 1

      ya you claim that despite me having proof that its wrong.

      You either just cant admit that youre wrong, or you really dont get how basic foreshadowing and narration work.

      either of those is pretty pathetic

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    • What was so original or innovative about Dragon Ball GT? Are you kidding me? lol They:

      1. Turn Goku back into a kid and bring back the Pilaf Gang to capture the original feeling of Dragon Ball and kick off the first arc with a hunt across the galaxy for the Dragon Balls. Hm. Wonder where I've seen that.
      2. Second arc, Vegeta gets possessed and becomes evil. Real innovative. No subtext there, either.
      3. Super 17 arc. Do I need to point out that this arc was basically one big fan fiction? They use two 17s to merge Hell and the real world, revive all the villains (movie and anime villains), only for Goku to fight against an Android that can absorb his energy as a gimmick. Again, wonder where I saw that?

      Arguably the best arc is the Shadow Dragon Arc, because at least there were some consequences for the Dragon Team's actions using the Dragon Balls; but you could make the same argument about the Goku Black arc where you have Trunks paying the consequences of his time traveling.

      So you don't like that Super Saiyan Blue is a reskin of Super Saiyan. Who tf cares. I don't like that Goku's pants and shoes magically grow with him in Super Saiyan 4 (but he loses his shirt because logic) and then shrink again for no apparent reason when he reverts transformations. You want to talk lazy? Magical clothes growing (or growing back in the case of Vegeta) is as lazy as it gets when it comes to design.

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    • And as someone who has been watching Dragon Ball from a very young age, I can tell you for certain I never watched it for the emotion or for the story fulfillment. There's very little of that in Dragon Ball. It was originally a gag manga that turned into a fighting manga, and when it did, everyone turned in to see the fights.

      Even epic moments like Vegeta sacrificing himself against Boo lost its meaning because the Dragon Balls, the Kaioshins, and any other number of plot devices out there, can just bring people back. There are no stakes in Dragon Ball. But that's fine. I'm not watching it for stakes, or story, or whatever "subtext" you're reading (it isn't there, man); I'm watching it to see people punch each other, yell, scream, transform, and blow crap up. The end.

      And newsflash, that's most of us Dragon Ball fans. That's why a lot of people like Super despite the reasons you complain about it. It gave us what we wanted. Awesome fights and transformations.

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    • I love Super Saiyan 4, I just dislike what they did with GT. Kid again? Stupid. Magical growing and shrinking clothes with no explanation? Stupid. GT had MANY mistakes and dumb concepts. But I do like the main enemies, and the Super Saiyan 4 design. I think Super 17 could be redone and brought into the main canon, I think the same for Baby and the Evil Dragons. HOW they do it would be extremely important though. Ryan's problem is he is acting like a 4 year old and praising GT like its the holy lord himself while bashing all over Dragon Ball series animes at the same time. You like SS4? cool I do too but I'm not going to sit here and act childish about Super Saiyan Blue and Dragon Ball Super so just relax and chill man wtf.

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    • Says the person insulting a show and its contents other people like just because it has stuff you don't agree with. If you have a problem make up your own story that way you can control it to your liking and quit bitching about Super cause you feel it unoriginal or whatever your problem with it is.

      Basic foreshadowing you mean plot points building up to pivotal moment right. Ok where was the foreshadowing to Frieza's other transformations (after his second), Majin Buu's absorption, SSJ3, SSJ4, fusion, or hell even Great Ape. Where was the foreshadowing for all these points, there wasn't why? PLOT so that way the story can progress and can entrain, not every little thing has to foreshadowed otherwise where's the surprise. No one wants a story with no surprise so yes while SSJB might not have been foreshadowed, even though it was, it gives the audience more. So if you don't understand the basic mechanics of storytelling besides foreshadowing than I don't know what to tell you.

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    • Read my comment again, I was talking to Ryan. But you need to chill tf out too. Ya'll are acting like babies.

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    • I know who you were talking to. I was just replying to him cause basically he's calling me pathetic cause I don't agree with him. Don't worry I'm not going to go crazy over a cartoon.

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    • Yeah, Ryan really needs to stop. Funny how we have moderators on here, but none of them do their jobs.

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    • Wait there are moderators? No joke. Really? Then why don't they do anything?

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    • They are the ones who are supposed to give out warnings, control the forums to keep them civil etc.

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    • Different from comic vine who's mods are way too strict who lock topics they don't agree with then?

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    • Yeah, they are supposed to lock threads that get out of control, come to a conclusion, or are against the rules.

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    • I mean other than certain individuals who shall remain nameless, like Ryan, insulting people, this topic hasn't gotten out of hand.

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    • If users are having issues report them to have them sorted out.

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    • Everyone calm down, no more flame, kay?

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    • In my opinion SSB has a higher multiplier in the anime. It does depend on who's using the form though, as one could be more powerful, and it probably would vary in different types of media, eg. Xenoverse might have SS4 as a 10,000x increase and SSB at a 200x increase or vice-versa. 

      To reiterate, this is just an opinion, if you disagree then that's fine, but please don't insult me for it. 

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    • ByAsura wrote: In my opinion SSB has a higher multiplier in the anime. It does depend on who's using the form though, as one could be more powerful, and it probably would vary in different types of media, eg. Xenoverse might have SS4 as a 10,000x increase and SSB at a 200x increase or vice-versa. 

      To reiterate, this is just an opinion, if you disagree then that's fine, but please don't insult me for it. 

      Super Saiyan Blue is definitely stronger in the manga. It's just that the weakness is more glaring. In the manga, the stamina drain is more prominent than in the anime, so it seems like a weaker form; but you see that as soon as Goku masters Super Saiyan Blue, he starts dominating the Fused Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu, whereas, in the anime, Super Saiyan Blue barely stacks up to Black as a Super Saiyan Rose.

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    • Thats because in the anime, there is no perfected Super Saiyan Blue, just plain old Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan 4 also has a stronger state that makes it way stronger called Ultra-full-power Saiyan 4, Goku used the form in GT, Dokkan Battle and Heroes.

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    • A FANDOM user
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