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  • In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?

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    • SSJB of course, Xeno Goku and Vegeta are just really powerful.

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    • Cunber is not defeated yet.

      And Super Sayan Blue is stronger than Super Sayan 4

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    • SSB Vegito failed to beat him in a form that's equivalent to SS4, but OK.

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    • I think what we can say now is, A) I was wrong. B) SSj4 and SSB are at similar power levels/the same tier. C) Vegito and Gogeta have different hair from each other in SSj4 form for no reason.

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    • SSB and SS4 are basically the same level of power, Golden Great Ape cumber is 10x stronger than his ss3 form.

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:
      In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?

      Super Saiyan 4 for the win.

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    • DrWhofan7 wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote:
      In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?

      Super Saiyan 4 for the win.

      How when SSJBKK took on GG Cumber which is way stronger than SSJ3

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    • Yeah, I can also take on Mike Tyson. Just ignore the fact that I lose.

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    • DrWhofan7
      DrWhofan7 removed this reply because:
      moving it.
      22:01, October 29, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      DrWhofan7 wrote:


      XIII13Hero wrote:
      In episode 6 of SDBH SSJ4 Vegito proves to be stronger than SSBKK Vegito by defeating SSJ3 Cumber but ​In manga SSBKK Vegito was able to hang with Golden Great Ape Cumber so maybe in manga SSJB Vegito is stronger than SSJ4 Vegito so it might be the viewer's choice on which form is stronger. What do you say?
      Super Saiyan 4 for the win.
      How when SSJBKK took on GG Cumber which is way stronger than SSJ3

      because SSJ4 would need 4 saiyans to make it more stronger, just like in GT.

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    • How does Great Ape + Super Saiyan + not being an animal > Super Saiyan GOD + Super Saiyan  ?

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    • SS4 and SSB are about the same in power, they just have different benefits and drawbacks. Golden Great Ape Cumber is 10x stronger than SS3 Cumber btw..

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    • I know they are, I just don't understand why they are. It's saying that Great Ape and Super Saiyan God are equal in power.

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    • Golden Great Ape is 10x Super Saiyan 3's level of power. It isn't far fetched to say that Super Saiyan God is 10x SS3's level of power. Super Saiyan 4 is a transformation FROM Golden Great Ape that apparently makes it 10x more powerful than Golden Great Ape. Super Saiyan Blue is confirmed to be about 10x stronger than Super Saiyan God. So in the end it's just a parallel, one is the path a Saiyan takes to power with God Ki, the other is the Normal Ki path to power.

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    • Yes but a Golden Great Ape is Great Ape + Super Saiyan, so how is that above GOD?

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    • Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just shortcuts to the full power of Super Saiyan. So its 400x10 equals Golden Great Ape, and apparently Super Saiyan God. 400x10x10 equals SS4 and SSB.

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    • I think we should ignore the standard multiplayers we know, since most came from kanzen and Toriyama has stated that those are exaggerated

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    • In order for Goku to be able to fight full power frieza he would of had to have a pl of 120,000,000 at minimum making the basic unmastered super saiyan multiplier 40x base power meaning Toriyama wasn't just bullshitting us and 50x for the unmastered form was indeed an exaggeration.

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    • Would *have

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    • SSB and SS4 are nowhere near the same in power. SSG alone pulled off insanely better feats than SS4 ever did. Xeno Goku is just powerful alone.

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    • Not how current media portrays it. Your opinions aren't facts, b.

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    • And the opinion of the media is a fact..?

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    • The media being fake news is fake news.

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    • The media was literally just lied about Etika attempting suicide and also lied about a bunch of Toriyama quotes a while ago-

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    • News media or new media?

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    • Media in general to be frank

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    • Most times on reddit

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    • Reddit isn't news. It's reddit.

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    • SSJB stomps SSJ4, Xeno Goku and Vegeta are just really powerful in base form. I do not know why there is a discussion about this.

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    • Because you just made that up, that's why. There is no proof for anything you just said.

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    • SSG Goku was about to destroy all of Universe 7 with just punches, and before this, Base Goku was only around Solar System Level. This alone says alot about the SSG multiplier being far above SS4, and SSB is 50x SSG.

      Beerus being there doesn't matter, considering Universe 7 is the size of multiple Universes due to including Otherworld, the Demon Realm and Hell

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    • No. Just no. Stop.

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    • According to Whis Goku at SSGod is 1/10 the power of Vegeta at SSBlue, and at the time Goku and Vegeta were equal in base form. So SSBlue is 10x SSGod.

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    • That was in the manga, which is completely different.

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    • Even then, Goku still almost destroyed the Universe in the manga.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Because you just made that up, that's why. There is no proof for anything you just said.

      I heard he is at least 6D at base, vsbattles wiki put Xeno Goku at multiverse level. Go check it out yourself, I thought people already knew this.

      Here is what is says...

      Multiverse level (Stronger than Giant Demon God Demigra, and fought on par with Demigra Makyouka, who was going to cause the collapse of the DBH Multiverse and the "Real World", in base and defeated him as a SSJ. Defeated Chamel who gained all of Demigra's powers and with his presence alone was about to collapse the Multiverse and Beat's World. One-shot Gravy as a SSJ3 who is stronger than Demigra and fought against SSJ4 Dark Broly alongside Final Form Mira as SSJ4.)

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    • I don't take vs battles wiki as a source for anything.

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    • Personally I'd take what the anime gives us. The real debate is confusing, are we discussing if SS4 or SSB is superior as a form, or SS4 Goku/Vegeta or SSB Goku/Vegeta are superior?

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    • In all honesty we can't discuss which of the two scenarios with exact fact. We can only speculate with what is shown and given and current media, and so far it seems like SS4 and SSB are the same level of power, just with different drawbacks and benefits. It seems SS4 zaps Ki more than SSBlue, but SSBlue zaps Stamina more than SS4.

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    • So then SS4 and Blue together would probably kill you quickly.

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    • SSGSS requires perfect Ki control, so if they attained that while in SSGSS4 they would not have to worry about the Ki drain.. I imagine it would be like mixing Kaioken with SSGSS in that aspect, it was really tough on Goku at first and messed him up but with time he mastered it. All this is theoretical, because SS4 is directly transformed from the Golden Great Ape form and that is a combo of SS and Great Ape so its hard to ascertain whether a Great Ape Blue etc could even happen since that would be a great ape using and controlling God Ki along with Super Saiyan.. scratch that because if he awakened each form separately then he might actually be able to make a hybrid of SSGSS and SS4 by using the same principles of acquiring and using SSGSS with SS4.. that may be possible.

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    • Then the real question becomes, is that form more or less powerful than MUI?

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    • Well SSGSS:Evolution starts at the same power as SSBlue Kaioken x20, and then it gets even stronger once Vegeta unlocks more of its power with the manga comparing its power to Ultra Instinct - Sign. I imagine that SSGSS4 would be stronger than SSGSS:Evolution. So it should maybe equal Perfect Ultra Instinct.

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    • Who knows, it might even equal mastered ultra instinct.

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    • haha all the supe fanboys trying to defend ssj Blue

      Its official now Ssj4 is stronger kids, SSj3 Canba is the strongest form hes been in since hes introduced and SSJ4 pushed him back, ssj Blue vegito lost against a lesser form.

      THATS. A. FACT.

      deal with it even toei knows how trash dbs is

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    • Everything you've just said undercuts your argument. You belittled the other side by calling them kids, you mispelled super, it's, he's twice, Vegito, and every SSJ form and you were yelling in your post while using periods instead of exclamation points. Thank you for making SSB look better.

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    • RYan Odin wrote: haha all the supe fanboys trying to defend ssj Blue

      Its official now Ssj4 is stronger kids, SSj3 Canba is the strongest form hes been in since hes introduced and SSJ4 pushed him back, ssj Blue vegito lost against a lesser form.

      THATS. A. FACT.

      deal with it even toei knows how trash dbs is

      That's bullcrap. How is Cunber in SSJ3 more powerful than Golden Great ape. It sounds like you're a GT fan and if so you should remember that SSJ3 Goku with his tail was slapped around by Baby but after he turned GGA he was beating Baby. Did you not read that in the manga SSJB Kaio-ken was beating Cunber. And no Super is not trash, its way better than GT any day. In Super there's actual character development, hardly any plot holes to the story itself, and though its not like Z other characters have their shine moments. The only real thing against Super is power scaling. GT had stories that made no sense like Black Star Dragon Balls, no character development, stupid plots, and made prominent characters that had years of development like Vegeta useless and mediocre.

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote: haha all the supe fanboys trying to defend ssj Blue

      Its official now Ssj4 is stronger kids, SSj3 Canba is the strongest form hes been in since hes introduced and SSJ4 pushed him back, ssj Blue vegito lost against a lesser form.

      THATS. A. FACT.

      deal with it even toei knows how trash dbs is

      That's bullcrap. How is Cunber in SSJ3 more powerful than Golden Great ape. It sounds like you're a GT fan and if so you should remember that SSJ3 Goku with his tail was slapped around by Baby but after he turned GGA he was beating Baby. Did you not read that in the manga SSJB Kaio-ken was beating Cunber. And no Super is not trash, its way better than GT any day. In Super there's actual character development, hardly any plot holes to the story itself, and though its not like Z other characters have their shine moments. The only real thing against Super is power scaling. GT had stories that made no sense like Black Star Dragon Balls, no character development, stupid plots, and made prominent characters that had years of development like Vegeta useless and mediocre.

      haha I think you need to research more, Super got more plotholes than GT and Z combined its even here on the wiki.

      But im not here to talk about the quality of the series, we all know that both super and GT are trash, its just that super is even trasher.

      I was never talking about golden great ape, base Canba slapped ss blue vegito around too if you remember hahaha

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    • No the plot holes on this site are dumb stuff like Trunks' hair or Krillin's height. The point is a comparison of the manga and anime. Even in the game base Cunber was losing to SSJB Goku and Vegeta. It would be one thing if the anime was on its own, but there are two other versions of this story. One clearly shows SSJB out classing SSJ4. And really the one real main source is the game since both manga and anime are promotional.

      And how is Super worse than GT? Is it because it follows Toriyama's generic shounen story telling. Despite what we DBZ fans think it was not a masterpiece work of art. It was a gag that turned into a battle manga, basic hero versus villain nothing more and nothing less. We all know it was the awesome fights that made it an icon

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    • no super is trash because its inconsistent, like when Vegeta was out of energy in one episode, fired final flashes in the next episodes and then is out of energy again in the following.

      it has no hint of creatovity or originality, the first two arcs are just the movies but worse, the third arc is stolen from dragonball multivers, the trunks arc is just the cell arc with a less interesting villain (my preference I find goku black insanely stupid in concept and zamasu allright but uninspired) anf the tournament of power was just narutos shinobi world war.

      second super got NO stakes, because it takes place before the last chapter of the manga, the tournament of power was so boring because we knew from the beginning that universe 6 would win because the end of the manga has to still happen.

      third the animation is trash, the art style got far better but the characters still barely move and of they are the moves are looped, zoomed in or worse blurred, it looks presentable but not as beautiful as Gt did (the animation in GT is fluent and gorgeous, basically the only good thing about Gt)

      I got plenty more should I go on lol

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    • Super is not trash, don't bash one thing just to try and make another better. GT had good designs and good main villains.. but really that was it. The whole Goku becoming a kid thing and Gohan no longer needing to use Ultimate Gohan state was pointless to me honestly. Other than that GT was ok. Super did drop the ball a few times with certain characters and in some of the arcs but other than that it was ok too.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Super is not trash, don't bash one thing just to try and make another better. GT had good designs and good main villains.. but really that was it. The whole Goku becoming a kid thing and Gohan no longer needing to use Ultimate Gohan state was pointless to me honestly. Other than that GT was ok. Super did drop the ball a few times with certain characters and in some of the arcs but other than that it was ok too.

      dont missunderstand me, Im not bashing on Super to defend GT, Im bashing on Super because it simply isnt good, its trash even worse than Gt, because as you said GT at least had good and consistent artwork and interesting mainvillains, super has none of those, when the animation and artwork looks good its never lasting the whole episode its only key scenes that look presentable.

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    • Super isn't trash, they did make mistakes obviously. GT has plenty of mistakes too.Goku with dark tan skin, GT Trunks with grape purple colored hair among other things hahahaha. They both had many mistakes man you just take your personal hate for Super and try and blow out all over the forums.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Super isn't trash, they did make mistakes obviously. GT has plenty of mistakes too.Goku with dark tan skin, GT Trunks with grape purple colored hair among other things hahahaha. They both had many mistakes man you just take your personal hate for Super and try and blow out all over the forums.

      like I said the trashyness of Super has nothing to do with Gt, seriously man I used to downplay it too, but if you rewatch episodes of super withou the „oh my god its a new episode of dragonball“ mindset then its just boring to watch.

      its not just made mistakes, its a mistake as a whole, because they cant make significant changes to anything because the end of Z still has to happen, setting a whole series between the last to chapters of the manga was a stupid idea and doomed the series from the start

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    • In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't watch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you want to watch for the story, if you did then you would think DBZ was dumbest thing ever. You watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

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    • XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent


      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      It's just your opinion and no one else's. 

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    • Rogeta234 wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      It's just your opinion and no one else's. 

      haha go along kid the adults are talking

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      Rogeta234 wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent

      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      It's just your opinion and no one else's. 

      haha go along kid the adults are talking

      Judging from your language and tone, I'd say I'm the adult and you're the child.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: In this day and age do you think any work of fiction is 100% percent original. Everyone knows U6 is DBM, Black arc was not the Cell arc it was actually the only arc in DB with a twisted villain and a twist ending. Again you don't wtch DB for story you watch it for the fights, the writing style isn't like Naruto were it has a deeper meaning and you watch for the story, you watch for fighting. It was no brained what universe would win, it was to see fight after fight the very foundation of DBZ's popularity though the majority was boring except for the OVA and the when it was just 7 & 11

      And really the animation is trash? That was 2015 dude come one, even Z had its moments of garbage animation do you really think toei would spend a lot of money every week for good animation. In case you haven't noticed a lot of weekly anime has crappy animation. Also a lot of scenes weren't looped unlike GT, for example with SSJ4 Goku and Vegeta vs Omega Shenron almost the whole episode's fight was stock footage, Gt was never fluent


      lol sorry but that is just stupid, you just watch Dragonball for the fights seriously?

      I got something for you then: the fights were never that good beyond dragonball!

      its character moments that mke us remember dragonball, the high stakes and the endeering personalities.

      super has no stakes, the characters are all the same idiot (except for vegeta who is literally the only one represented with respect) and character moments are nonexistant.

      like the iconic scene where goku showed mercy towards vegeta or freezer, or when picollo overcame his hatred and saved gohan, or when vegeta made the worst mistake of his life and let babidi control him.

      stuff like that doesnt happen in super because the writers either arent capable or arent allowed to take risks.

      and yes, the animation is one piece tier of trash, produsing it weekly was the second nail in the coffin because nowadays EVERY anime that respects itself is produced in seasons rather than weekly.

      you can stay in denial as long as you want frankly I dont care, but Super being trash is a fact.

      its hard to accept because its dragonball after all, but I challenge you to rewatch the future trunks arc or the tournament of power arc and not be bored out of your mind.

      trust me ive tried its a painfull experience

      Yes you do watch it for fights. When someone say Dragon Ball Z even hardcore fans one of the first things that pop into their the heads is the fights, and what their favorite fights were not the moments. None thinks of Goku showing mercy, Piccolo saving Gohan, or Vegeta being taken over by Babidi you're full of shit if you think that's what people think of. And if the animation for Super is trash then so is Z and Gt cause one week you'll have and badass episode with awesome animation then next week it look like something that belongs on Spongebob. Being in denial would be me saying Super was perfect with nothing wrong about it, I accept that it had episodes with terrible animation, inconsistencies, and scenes that made no sense. And I have rewatched the Black arc loved it as much as the first time, and if you paid attention I already told you the ToP arc was pretty much boring. It was the most overhyped arc and was a let done. Stop trying to make Super sound like it was so horrible when at the end of the day it's exactly like Z.

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    • Watching DBZ/S/GT for things other than the fights is like watching pornography for the cinematography.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      Watching DBZ/S/GT for things other than the fights is like watching pornography for the cinematography.

      What a dumb argument, Dragonball has so much more to offer than mediocre fight scenes

      And yes, 90% of fight scenes in Dragonball are mediocre, no choregraphy at all, lots of fist flurries, long periods of powering up (longer than necesary just to clarify).

      What makes dragonball good is the number of emotions attached to the fights, we dont want Goku to fight against freezer because it looks cool, we want them to fight because we want to see Goku bring justice to his friends, Vegeta and planet namek.

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    • If you want to pretend there's more to DB than fighting then go ahead, but that won't change the fact that's what the majority of the fandom watch it for. Emotion may ply a role but not as big as you're trying to let on.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:
      NervousShipper wrote:
      Watching DBZ/S/GT for things other than the fights is like watching pornography for the cinematography.
      What a dumb argument, Dragonball has so much more to offer than mediocre fight scenes

      And yes, 90% of fight scenes in Dragonball are mediocre, no choregraphy at all, lots of fist flurries, long periods of powering up (longer than necesary just to clarify).

      What makes dragonball good is the number of emotions attached to the fights, we dont want Goku to fight against freezer because it looks cool, we want them to fight because we want to see Goku bring justice to his friends, Vegeta and planet namek.

      Literally only you.

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    • okay then go ahead and tell my why the fights are good Ill wait

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    • Or rather, what excactly makes a fight scene in dragonball good

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    • RYan Odin wrote:
      okay then go ahead and tell my why the fights are good Ill wait

      No one said they were good, we said that there isn't another reason to watch. If you can find emotional weight to something happening in DBZ/GT/S, then you should watch Twilight, it'll blow you away.

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    • RYan Odin wrote: Or rather, what excactly makes a fight scene in dragonball good

      Lets see it's the transformations, yelling, techniques, and blowing stuff up just to name a few. Its those clichés of DB that made it memorable. In all my life as a DB fan I have never heard anyone talk about moments of emotion. Yeah they're pivotal moments for the plot and the development as a character and there are some that stand out like Majin Vegeta blowing himself up, but moments like that don't happen all the time so in DB there is hardly is any emotion thus its watched for the battles

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote: Or rather, what excactly makes a fight scene in dragonball good

      Lets see it's the transformations, yelling, techniques, and blowing stuff up just to name a few. Its those clichés of DB that made it memorable. In all my life as a DB fan I have never heard anyone talk about moments of emotion. Yeah they're pivotal moments for the plot and the development as a character and there are some that stand out like Majin Vegeta blowing himself up, but moments like that don't happen all the time so in DB there is hardly is any emotion thus its watched for the battles

      youre looking at it just from a surface level, of course the explosions and transformations are exciting... sure, buts WHY are they exciting?

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    • There is no deeper level.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      There is no deeper level.

      in dragonball super there isnt youre right, but In OG, Z and even GT there is a subtext in every battle, a pretty minor and aín few places shallow one, but its there.

      SUper is just fighting to introduce new merchandise that idiots can buy.

      Gifting Goku and vegeta new transformations withou them having to put effort into optaining them, and Toei not putting effort into designing them.

      Its just a disgrace.

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    • No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

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    • XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

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    • Also I never said i didnt like Super

      I just said it is uninspired, unoriginal and unprofessional trash.

      Which it objectively is if you compare it to other productions of the same timeframe.

      I still have fond feelings for it because its dragonball after all.

      But that wont stop me from calling out trash when I see it.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.

      Oh ya how many episodes of training was it? 5? 10? i dont remember because the ressurection F arc was just unbearable.

      Regardless, its better than nothing ( which we got in the movie) however its still very uncreative to just let them train and get gifted a new form.

      SSJ Blue doesnt feel deserved because it came out of nowhere, it wouldve been better if the ROF moivie hadnt existed and they couldve surprised us with it, but due to them being obligated to retell the movies they had to include it and quickly rushed something together so it would.



      What Im getting at is that SSJ1 felt earned, and ssj god, blue, and even the ultra asspull didnt. they were just given away.

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    • RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.

      Oh ya how many episodes of training was it? 5? 10? i dont remember because the ressurection F arc was just unbearable.

      Regardless, its better than nothing ( which we got in the movie) however its still very uncreative to just let them train and get gifted a new form.

      SSJ Blue doesnt feel deserved because it came out of nowhere, it wouldve been better if the ROF moivie hadnt existed and they couldve surprised us with it, but due to them being obligated to retell the movies they had to include it and quickly rushed something together so it would.



      What Im getting at is that SSJ1 felt earned, and ssj god, blue, and even the ultra asspull didnt. they were just given away.

      As was every other SSJ form after 1

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    • XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:

      XIII13Hero wrote:

      RYan Odin wrote:


      XIII13Hero wrote: No there isn't stop trying to make DB more than it is. Where is this subtext of emotion you go on about. You know what I'll start a new thread to see what makes DB memorable and why people watch it. Gifting Goku and Vegeta with transformation they didn't put effort into obtaining? Really? Even though it shows them training hard to reach new levels of power, but OK. But going by that logic Goku never put effort into obtaining SSJ he just got mad nor did he put effort into getting SSJ2 or SSJ3, every other Saiyan in Z worked hard to obtain it. Don't make up bullshit claims cause you don't like Super

      wow you really are dense...

      super saiyan is the culmination of growth weve seen Goku endure over a decade (in both reL time and in universe time) its the pinnacle of his evolution (at least it was conseptualiced as that)

      super saiyan 2 was the same but for Gohan, it was the passing of the torch moment for and made him into the character that was built up since the beginning of Z

      with ssj3 youre right that was random lol

      I never once said anything about Gohan. And you're statement about SSJ is the same of SSJB only with god ki. But you're saying despite them showing Goku and Vegeta working to obtain the new level of power they put no effort into. Which could be said for SSJ. saying it was a culmination of growth is just an excuse to cover the no effort statement.
      Oh ya how many episodes of training was it? 5? 10? i dont remember because the ressurection F arc was just unbearable.

      Regardless, its better than nothing ( which we got in the movie) however its still very uncreative to just let them train and get gifted a new form.

      SSJ Blue doesnt feel deserved because it came out of nowhere, it wouldve been better if the ROF moivie hadnt existed and they couldve surprised us with it, but due to them being obligated to retell the movies they had to include it and quickly rushed something together so it would.



      What Im getting at is that SSJ1 felt earned, and ssj god, blue, and even the ultra asspull didnt. they were just given away.

      As was every other SSJ form after 1

      ya you claim that despite me having proof that its wrong.

      You either just cant admit that youre wrong, or you really dont get how basic foreshadowing and narration work.

      either of those is pretty pathetic

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    • What was so original or innovative about Dragon Ball GT? Are you kidding me? lol They:

      1. Turn Goku back into a kid and bring back the Pilaf Gang to capture the original feeling of Dragon Ball and kick off the first arc with a hunt across the galaxy for the Dragon Balls. Hm. Wonder where I've seen that.
      2. Second arc, Vegeta gets possessed and becomes evil. Real innovative. No subtext there, either.
      3. Super 17 arc. Do I need to point out that this arc was basically one big fan fiction? They use two 17s to merge Hell and the real world, revive all the villains (movie and anime villains), only for Goku to fight against an Android that can absorb his energy as a gimmick. Again, wonder where I saw that?

      Arguably the best arc is the Shadow Dragon Arc, because at least there were some consequences for the Dragon Team's actions using the Dragon Balls; but you could make the same argument about the Goku Black arc where you have Trunks paying the consequences of his time traveling.

      So you don't like that Super Saiyan Blue is a reskin of Super Saiyan. Who tf cares. I don't like that Goku's pants and shoes magically grow with him in Super Saiyan 4 (but he loses his shirt because logic) and then shrink again for no apparent reason when he reverts transformations. You want to talk lazy? Magical clothes growing (or growing back in the case of Vegeta) is as lazy as it gets when it comes to design.

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    • And as someone who has been watching Dragon Ball from a very young age, I can tell you for certain I never watched it for the emotion or for the story fulfillment. There's very little of that in Dragon Ball. It was originally a gag manga that turned into a fighting manga, and when it did, everyone turned in to see the fights.

      Even epic moments like Vegeta sacrificing himself against Boo lost its meaning because the Dragon Balls, the Kaioshins, and any other number of plot devices out there, can just bring people back. There are no stakes in Dragon Ball. But that's fine. I'm not watching it for stakes, or story, or whatever "subtext" you're reading (it isn't there, man); I'm watching it to see people punch each other, yell, scream, transform, and blow crap up. The end.

      And newsflash, that's most of us Dragon Ball fans. That's why a lot of people like Super despite the reasons you complain about it. It gave us what we wanted. Awesome fights and transformations.

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    • I love Super Saiyan 4, I just dislike what they did with GT. Kid again? Stupid. Magical growing and shrinking clothes with no explanation? Stupid. GT had MANY mistakes and dumb concepts. But I do like the main enemies, and the Super Saiyan 4 design. I think Super 17 could be redone and brought into the main canon, I think the same for Baby and the Evil Dragons. HOW they do it would be extremely important though. Ryan's problem is he is acting like a 4 year old and praising GT like its the holy lord himself while bashing all over Dragon Ball series animes at the same time. You like SS4? cool I do too but I'm not going to sit here and act childish about Super Saiyan Blue and Dragon Ball Super so just relax and chill man wtf.

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    • Says the person insulting a show and its contents other people like just because it has stuff you don't agree with. If you have a problem make up your own story that way you can control it to your liking and quit bitching about Super cause you feel it unoriginal or whatever your problem with it is.

      Basic foreshadowing you mean plot points building up to pivotal moment right. Ok where was the foreshadowing to Frieza's other transformations (after his second), Majin Buu's absorption, SSJ3, SSJ4, fusion, or hell even Great Ape. Where was the foreshadowing for all these points, there wasn't why? PLOT so that way the story can progress and can entrain, not every little thing has to foreshadowed otherwise where's the surprise. No one wants a story with no surprise so yes while SSJB might not have been foreshadowed, even though it was, it gives the audience more. So if you don't understand the basic mechanics of storytelling besides foreshadowing than I don't know what to tell you.

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    • Read my comment again, I was talking to Ryan. But you need to chill tf out too. Ya'll are acting like babies.

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    • I know who you were talking to. I was just replying to him cause basically he's calling me pathetic cause I don't agree with him. Don't worry I'm not going to go crazy over a cartoon.

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    • Yeah, Ryan really needs to stop. Funny how we have moderators on here, but none of them do their jobs.

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    • Wait there are moderators? No joke. Really? Then why don't they do anything?

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    • They are the ones who are supposed to give out warnings, control the forums to keep them civil etc.

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    • Different from comic vine who's mods are way too strict who lock topics they don't agree with then?

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    • Yeah, they are supposed to lock threads that get out of control, come to a conclusion, or are against the rules.

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    • I mean other than certain individuals who shall remain nameless, like Ryan, insulting people, this topic hasn't gotten out of hand.

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    • If users are having issues report them to have them sorted out.

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    • Everyone calm down, no more flame, kay?

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    • In my opinion SSB has a higher multiplier in the anime. It does depend on who's using the form though, as one could be more powerful, and it probably would vary in different types of media, eg. Xenoverse might have SS4 as a 10,000x increase and SSB at a 200x increase or vice-versa. 

      To reiterate, this is just an opinion, if you disagree then that's fine, but please don't insult me for it. 

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    • ByAsura wrote: In my opinion SSB has a higher multiplier in the anime. It does depend on who's using the form though, as one could be more powerful, and it probably would vary in different types of media, eg. Xenoverse might have SS4 as a 10,000x increase and SSB at a 200x increase or vice-versa. 

      To reiterate, this is just an opinion, if you disagree then that's fine, but please don't insult me for it. 

      Super Saiyan Blue is definitely stronger in the manga. It's just that the weakness is more glaring. In the manga, the stamina drain is more prominent than in the anime, so it seems like a weaker form; but you see that as soon as Goku masters Super Saiyan Blue, he starts dominating the Fused Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu, whereas, in the anime, Super Saiyan Blue barely stacks up to Black as a Super Saiyan Rose.

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    • Thats because in the anime, there is no perfected Super Saiyan Blue, just plain old Super Saiyan Blue. Super Saiyan 4 also has a stronger state that makes it way stronger called Ultra-full-power Saiyan 4, Goku used the form in GT, Dokkan Battle and Heroes.

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    • first off xeno goku used a god enhannced ssj 4 since he also absorbed the power of a super saiyan god at some point in time and second his base form is far stronger than top arc goku so it terms of actual transformation strength ssjb is stronger plus xeno goku admitted he would lose if his and top goku's battle kept going plus also hero's is non cannon so the power scaling used in it is probably not accurate but what is accurate is that ssj god goku was stronger than a potienal ssj 3 vegito who would be hundreds of times stronger than ssj  3 goku while ssj 4 at best is 10x ssj3.

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    • https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000113-dragon-ball-general/76636109 Goku Xeno never got God Ki himself, he was just aware that the other him did. So no, it is not God enhanced Super Saiyan 4.

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    • Jacob Kingston wrote:

      Super Saiyan Blue is definitely stronger in the manga. It's just that the weakness is more glaring. In the manga, the stamina drain is more prominent than in the anime, so it seems like a weaker form; but you see that as soon as Goku masters Super Saiyan Blue, he starts dominating the Fused Super Saiyan Rose Zamasu, whereas, in the anime, Super Saiyan Blue barely stacks up to Black as a Super Saiyan Rose.

      That's not what I meant, what I did mean is that I'm not sure. Sorry for not making it clear at all. Also, they're two different worlds with different power scaling, Fusion Zamasu and Goku Black's Super Saiyan Rose might not have the same multiplier.

      They probably do as well, since a healed SS Black can fight on par with Vegeta as SSB, and after getting another boost from healing he defeats SSB Veg. Zamasu then goes from weaker than a full power SSB Vegeta to fighting Goku at full power.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/2000113-dragon-ball-general/76636109 Goku Xeno never got God Ki himself, he was just aware that the other him did. So no, it is not God enhanced Super Saiyan 4.

      he does goku xenowas stated to have gone ssj god at some point plus this does not disprove any og my other statements plus all you showed me is a fourm of people disagreeing with geekdom that has nothing to do with material shown in the series. 

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    • goku said that fusing with vegeta would not be enough to beat beerus but thought ssj god did meaning ssj god goku is stronger than ssj 3 vegito would be hundreds of times stronger than ssj 3 goku while ssj 4 is only 10x ssj3 at most these. If you pay attetion to supers the batte of gods arc you would know this.

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    • Dude, just stop. Even with Super Saiyan God, he was nowhere near enough to beat Beerus showing his whole previous statemnet was way off. It's called plot points.

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    • and did you not read the translation?? One post translates it clearly for you and he is not talking about himself getting Super Saiyan God.

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    • Oh also, I found out the “Xeno” Goku in DBH anime is not actually xeno Goku, its CC Goku.

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    • Not really consistent to compare Goku: Xeno SSJ4 with SSB Goku. Their base forms are totally different in terms of power, with Xeno Goku being far stronger and older.

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    • @Monzy No he's not. @Chrome No, he's not, Xeno Goku is only stronger than his GT self, until directly stated, he is not stronger than CC Goku in base form.

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    • Um actually, it doesn’t make any sense but this is a video game and also not really canon, Xeno Goku defeated Chamel who had gained all of Demigra's powers and with his presence alone was about to collapse the Multiverse and Beat's World. But I also don’t know if they are taking any of Xeno Gokus previous feats into account or the fact that he is supposed to be over 100 years older than Goku of the main timeline.

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    • No, Xeno Goku is just GT Goku after the Shadow Dragons Saga is over and he is back to being an adult, so either he grew up again, or he was wished back into an adult. Him being from 100 years later is unconfirmed and speculation here. Also the anime, manga, and video games for heroes each has a different telling and continuity for the characters so far. Xeno Goku is at best tied with CC Goku in base forms and at least he is weaker than CC Goku in base forms. I think him being tied is the most likely case here.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      No, Xeno Goku is just GT Goku after the Shadow Dragons Saga is over and he is back to being an adult, so either he grew up again, or he was wished back into an adult. Him being from 100 years later is unconfirmed and speculation here. Also the anime, manga, and video games for heroes each has a different telling and continuity for the characters so far. Xeno Goku is at best tied with CC Goku in base forms and at least he is weaker than CC Goku in base forms. I think him being tied is the most likely case here.

      Xeno Goku > Dragon ball super universe, basically the DBH characters are ridiculously powerful. As I said eariler, the Xeno Goku in the anime is a different version, a weaker one.

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    • Until it is proven it is still speculation. As of yet they have been shown as equals at best.

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    • I suppose he would have to be for super Goku to have a chance.

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    • Xeno Goku isn't GT Goku. He just went through the same experiences as him, and he also went through the Z Movies. He's from a completely different Timeline.

      Also, Xeno Goku's base form >>> CC Goku's base form. SSJ4 and SSB have entirely different feats, they aren't equal whatsoever. I'll explain below:



      Omega Shenron's biggest feat was ripping the entire Universe apart using his strongest attacks. Kid Buu very casually destroyed an entire Galaxy. Omega Shenron still >>>> Kid Buu (obviously). Base GT Goku is between these 2, except light years below Omega (The Universal Spirit Bomb doesn't count since it's not really Goku's ki), putting him closer to Kid Buu's level (around Galaxy Level).

      And SSG Goku was destroying all of Universe 7 with both the punch clash and the beam clash. Even if you say "but Beerus was there, too" it wouldn't change much, if anything. Goku and Beerus were using equal power in the fight, putting both of them at Universal in this clash since Universe 7 is at least the size of multiple Universes.   Keep in mind, Base Goku before this showed no signs of being above Kid Buu level at all, except there being a timeskip. However, he didn't have nearly as much training as he should. And SSB is 50 times SSG in the anime as stated by Goku when he describes SSB as "a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" for Frieza.

      So in GT, Goku went from just above Kid Buu to a still many times below Omega Shenron. This probably isn't descriptive enough, but it's at least thousands of times stronger than he is in base.

      In DBS, Goku went from maybe equal to Kid Buu, to being able to destroy the Universe with basic attacks. Also, Goku in SSG absorbed the same shockwaves that were going to destroy the Universe, which further backs up the argument that he is Universal. and SSB is 50x SSG.

      This makes SSB far superior to SS4.

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    • Can’t figure out how to give kudos but you would have 10 from me STAnarchy

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    • Lmao just no man. You sound like one of those vswikia autistic kids rn with that.

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    • Also no, SSB is only 10x SSG according to Whis, so yet again you people come in here with your own headcanon spouted as facts.

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    • What is your proof for this goku being from shadow dragon saga and he was wished back to being an adult or just grew up? What tells you so certainly that this isn’t Goku after 100 years?

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    • These are Xenoverse characters, so their statistics are vastly different to the Dragon Ball Super stuff, original Manga, Animes, etc. They may have the same forms (SS 1, 2, 3, 4, God, Blue, etc), but that's kind of meaningless since they just do whatever they want. 

      @FlatZone

      I don't really care to comment on the actual multiplier, but the 10x thing is the manga, not the anime. I bring this up because it seems that the latter is being used here.  

      @ST

      Goku isn't "just above" Kid Buu considering how easily he stomped Rildo, who's above Kid Buu. 

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    • Their bases have never fought each other so you cannot say their bases are equal, and Whis did not say Blue was 10x red he said Vegeta specifically couldn’t use even 1/10th of his usual strength, keep in mind SSB is properly named SSGSS because it is Super Saiyan Red gone Super Saiyan, hence 50x stronger, if that is where the SS multiplier is at this point, it may be more. So get your facts straight.

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    • No, YOU get your facts straight and stop making shit up. Goku and Vegeta were equal in strength in the U6 Tournament Saga as was mentioned multiple times beforehand. Goku at SSGod was about as strong as Vegeta at SSBlue reduced to 10% of his power. Learn some math, guy that makes SSGod 10x weaker than SSBlue.  Also you have no proof, no facts for CC Goku's base being weaker than Xeno Goku's base, Only your own head canon, speculation and made up facts.. and Btw Xenoverse has its own continuity of the Time Patrol, one example being that the Goku from the story uses SSBlue so you can't use that for heroes characters and continuity.

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    • 10% Vegeta was getting stomped pretty hard, while SSG was actually overpowering Hit and even shortening his Time Skip due to the difference. SSG is stronger. 

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    • You weren't paying attention as to how Goku was combating the Time Skip then. Vegeta had no clue at all Time Skip was being used hence he had no way as to combat it. Goku was explicitly told what it was and how he was doing it before the match. Whis says IN THE VERY SAME CHAPTER that 10% of SSBlue = SSGod. If Vegeta knew what was going on then at 10% power Blue he would have fared the same as SSGod Goku did.

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    • You weren't paying attention to what actually happened in the portion I showed. Goku as SSG was actually shortening Hit's Time Skip because he was explicitly stated to be stronger, Vegeta wasn't at all and was being stomped. Goku combatting his Time Skip in base was skill, not actual power like the SSG thing, he wasn't shortening the Time Skip, just using predictions.

      Whis doesn't say that and Beerus actually calls him stronger.

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    • You aren't putting context together very well. Vegeta at 10% Blue could have done the same thing if he knew what to do and what was happening. Also in the translation of it on Kanzenshuu it does not say SSGod Goku was stronger than 10% power Blue Vegeta.

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    • No he couldn't. SSG Goku was, again, shortening his Time Skip due to sheer power since Hit's technique is effective on opponents of weaker or similar power, and it was effective on Vegeta at 10%. It doesn't matter if Vegeta didn't know it was Time Skip. I'm not sure what you're talking about, but this says "Goku is closing the gap between them, which Vegeta was not able to do because of the strain from using Super Saiyan Blue several times in a row."

      FlatZone wrote:
      You aren't putting context together very well.

      Seems like the pot is calling the kettle black. 

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    • Vegeta could not shorten the time-skip with his own power... because he had no idea what time-skip was, or that time-skip was being used or how long it was lasting, at all. If he was given the same information before that battle began he would have fared just as well there. You like looking at one panel and think thats the answer, plot and context do not work that way. Whis explains clearly why Vegeta failed and Goku is doing better and you seem to be picking and choosing what you want to use from the chapter and the pages.

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    • There's no indication that's the case at all, it just says it's less effective against stronger opponents, not that they have to be aware for it to work. Now you're pulling out headcanon. I'm not getting one panel, you're just reaching for outside context, even though it doesn't matter. Whis said that Vegeta was weakened, and when Beerus says God is stronger than 10% SSB, Whis agrees and previously stated he even surpasses Hit. You're just picking and choosing elements of the story that aren't there. 

      Plus, you totally ignored the Kanzenshuu page that says outright that SSG Goku is stronger than 10% Blue Vegeta. 

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    • So what that means, if I am to take your words here is that since Goku and Vegeta were equals in U6 Saga, that Super Saiyan God is not actually 10x weaker than Blue, but may instead be for example 8-9x weaker. Meaning that it swings what I was saying even further my way, and that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is FAR from 50x stronger than Super Saiyan God, Making it only 8-9 times stronger than Super Saiyan God. Which again still proves my point before you came in.

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    • I wasn't disputing that point, but fine, whatever. You can definitively say that the Manga's multiplier is less than 50x regardless of who's correct.

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    • The Manga and Anime both have their own different timeline. In the Manga it's (around) 10x, but in the Anime it's 50x.

      (Also I know i'm really late to reply I'm sorry-)

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    • WHERE. Show me proof. YOU are simply making the 50x boost from god to blue up. It is not stated anywhere. You are literally using your headcanon as proof, which is simply wrong.

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    • Where did you get the idea that it's headcanon?

      Also why on earth would you say "show proof" and "you're just using headcanon" in the same sentence? Wait for me to show proof before making the claim that it's headcanon.

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    • ALRIGHT, start off with a vegito phrase, FlatZone learn your stuff first, if you’d read my comment carefully and with an objective brain you would have understood. Vegeta has suffered from the stamina flaw of SSB to not be able to exert even 1/10th of his USUAL strength, if you watched this series with a proper brain you shouldve remembered that Blues full power only manifests for a short while after transforming then drops to the USUAL power in essence, Pefected Blue, which is blue functioning at full capacity, IS 50x Super Saiyan Red but this power only manifests for a short couple of seconds after transforming. Then dropping to around 10x which is the USUSAL amount of strength they manifest as they had not learned perfected blue yet, what Vegeta was suffering from was the extreme stamina flaw that causes the form to become even weaker than Super Saiyan Red. Get your facts straight BAKA.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Also no, SSB is only 10x SSG according to Whis, so yet again you people come in here with your own headcanon spouted as facts.

      From the manga mate.

      Anyways, in my eyes I see Perfected Blue as 100x Stronger then normal.

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    • Wow, you bunch are on some powerful shit. Get off the internet until you sober up.

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    • Maybe come up with some actual proof to back up what you say, then come back. Sober of course.

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    • Dude, where is the multiplier you gave for SSB from SSG stated?? nowhere, not once, never. You think just because Super Saiyan is 50x base form, that SSB MUST be 50x SSG. THAT is faulty and there is no proof for it. If you used your brain you would understand this. The only multiplier we are ever given is that SSGod is less than 10 times weaker than Blue. That is all we are ever given from it. You keep making shit up, you and the other two people who can't seem to use their brains.

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    • Guys, come on, stop insulting each other. 

      I heard this somewhere, @Flat, so do correct me if it's wrong. While fighting SSB, Kefla was stated to have more energy than Champa expected as a Super Saiyan, yet Blue was fighting on par with this Kefla (he went KK Blue after this statement) and Champa was wary of what would happen if Goku was at full stamina. God was getting outmatched by Kefla's base, so SSB is even more than the SSB multiplier.   

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    • No, actually it is stated, here’s a quote from this very wiki you know so much about. “Simply, it is the first Super Saiyan form combined with the power and crimson ki of a Super Saiyan Red”

      Or as Goku said TWICE. "Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan Red further transforms himself into a Super Saiyan"

      Again I say... BAKA.

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    • @Chrome you are failing to bring any proof at all, BAKA. All you are doing is rehashing sentences that have no mention of a multiplier at all and you STILL fail to understand this.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      Dude, where is the multiplier you gave for SSB from SSG stated?? nowhere, not once, never. You think just because Super Saiyan is 50x base form, that SSB MUST be 50x SSG. THAT is faulty and there is no proof for it. If you used your brain you would understand this. The only multiplier we are ever given is that SSGod is less than 10 times weaker than Blue. That is all we are ever given from it. You keep making shit up, you and the other two people who can't seem to use their brains.

      The quote says enough, you're just refusing to look into it. It doesn't have to be explicitly stated to be 50x in order to be 50x. It's heavily implied the way Goku describes SSB to Frieza. I'm not making anything up.

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    • LMAOOOOO You are NOT getting this at all, neither of you are. You desperately want your head canon to be a fact but sadly for you it just isn't.

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    • @Flat

      You haven't addressed my point above. 

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    • Okay Flat, so what is it when a Saiyan uses Super Saiyan? What is that multiplier? Now take that... and add it on top of Red form, and you get Blue. Not hArd at all to understand, do you need them to tell you when they go SSJ that it’s multiplier is 50x? No you don’t beKause it’s previously estAblished, you just don’t like being wrong so you’re going to keep it going. And what don’t we get? Your broken reasoning? Your incorrect assumptions?

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    • WHEN was it established that it would have the SAME multiplier on top of God?? You are assuming that. Prove that the multiplier would still be the same. Otherwise you are running off of nothing but your fantasies.

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    • @Asura that is called plot, they wanted Goku to be forced to use Ultra Instinct again. They went ahead and ignored all logic for most of that tournament anyway, He was supposed to be tired and out of stamina and yet he was still whipping out the same damn transformations and techs the entire time.

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    • Ok, so PIS then. 

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    • Seriously Flat? Why would it change? That is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard, "Prove the multiplier stays the same?" why in the heck would it change, that is so mind numbingly ridiculous. It's Super Saiyan when have you seen the multiplier change before besides training? Your logic is highly flawed.
      IMG 1889
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    • What exactly does Baka mean? I get a lot of different answers when searching for it.

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    • It’s an insult in Japanese. Translates to Fool, Dumb, Idiot, Jerk, that kinda thing. It’s also really funny to say.

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    • Ok.

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    • So a Baka, is calling me Baka. You have yet to prove that it would be a 50x multiplier coming from Super Saiyan God to SSGSS. You are just saying it is and that is not the same as proving it is. Sounds to me like you're the real dumb one here kid.

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    • plus he used a screenshot of an anime character to make his "insult". Pretty much the lowest of the low now.

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    • I, like before, am not going to actually agree on a 50x thing (cause I don't care), but it seems like it being 50x requires less assumption than it not being 50x.

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    • IMG 1894
      You guys are hilarious. Like, truly comical.
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    • The ONLY multiplier info we are ever given, coming from Toyotaro himself through the words of Whis, is that Super Saiyan SSGSS is less than 10x stronger than Super Saiyan God. We have to stick to what we are given, until more info comes out. So until then its safe to put SSGSS as about 9x stronger than Super Saiyan God.

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    • So a Super Saiyan Red having gone Super Saiyan isn't 50x stronger, but only ten times. Even though its stated that the true power of Blue only manfests for a few seconds after transforming then immediately takes a dive to the usual power eh? So I COULDN'T be correct about a 50x multiplier being the true power of blue. Sure.






      IMG 1893
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    • The Full power of SSGSS which IS Perfected SSGSS is 8-9 times stronger than Super Saiyan God. Whis explains about how SSGSS loses power after being used multiple times in the same day and that Super Saiyan God was stronger than 10% of SSGSS. Toyotaro and Toriyama both said that it would take the power of two SSGSS to beat fused Zamasu, and Goku then used Perfected SSGSS and had a slight edge on fused Zamasu.. meaning that Perfected SSGSS is almost as strong as 2 normal SSGSS. So if we do the math then normal SSGSS is around about 3-5 times stronger than Super Saiyan God.

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    • Oh my gosh you’re all over the place. Just because he said it would take both of them doesn’t mean the multiplier is 2x that is ridiculous. How could PERFECTED SSB be 8-9x as powerful as Super Saiyan Red, when in U6 saga the form was supposed to be about 8-9x stronger than Super Saiyan Red, the FULL power of SSB, which is perfected blue, is WAY more than 8-9x more powerful, like do you even watch this series? It’s SUPER SAIYAN on top of SUPER SAIYAN RED putting PERFECTED BLUE at 50x since that is SUPER SAIYANS established multiplier. Like what logic are you using?

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    • Man, just go to sleep. You aren't understanding this at all. SSJ is only 50x from the Saiyans base form. I've explained this to you idk how many times and you STILL don't get it. If you can't bring actual proof to the table then stop commenting.

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    • Actually that’s the first time you’ve said that, and even THAT is wrong when does it say Super Saiyan has a specific multiplier for base and different for on top of forms? If that’s the case SSJ4 wouldn’t be what it is, in actuality I’ve been the one repeating myself over and over but YOU, SOMEHOW, can’t wrap your head around this. Proof? What the heck do you mean bring proof, I’ve proved it over and over you just refuse to believe it because you can’t accept that, Y
      6473282C-57C3-48A5-82CB-9CB85AC82BDA
      ou. Are. Wrong. 100%.
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    • By posting that photo, you've made every part of your post irrelevant. Hope this helps.

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    • Glad you could be here. Thanks for your input, really wanted your opinion on this.

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    • FlatZone wrote:
      LMAOOOOO You are NOT getting this at all, neither of you are. You desperately want your head canon to be a fact but sadly for you it just isn't.

      In the Manga, you're right about the multiplier being around 10x for SSB, but not in the anime. I posted the proof I need, now stop denying it. By the way, how is it headcanon if it's actually canon? Goku himself described SSB as "a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God", this already implies that its the Super Saiyan multiplier added onto the SSG multiplier. There's literally nothing else this quote could mean.

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    • No, it does not imply the multiplier is the same. It only implies what the form is, super saiyan god super saiyan. The only time it is confirmed to give a 50x boost is when it is used from base form. Otherwise you are using headcanon.

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    • Yeah, I don't know why I bother trying to tell these fools. @NervousShipper @Orion Invictus

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    • Well look at your merry band of misfits and people who can’t admit when there wrong. Your ability to make yourself blind to plain proof then ask for it is appalling, I’m through listening to your squabbling.

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    • Both of you, stop this behaviour right now. Please, debate civilly.

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    • @FlatZone I could actually give more proof. This wiki itself also agrees with me that SSB is 50x SSG. https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Blue#Usage_and_power "Simply, it is the first Super Saiyan form combined with the power and crimson ki of a Super Saiyan God turned cyan blue, due to a mortal absorbing it." It literally says that its a mixture of Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan God. That means the multipliers are mixed, too.

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    • You know what, im going to edit this comment because the moderator is right, and he said please. I'm going to atempt to dial it back a bit. Here is an apology so we can move on in a more polite manner.

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    • That would still be incorrect. Toyotaro and Toriyama through Whis, made it clear what the multiplier actually was 8-9x going from Super Saiyan God to the Full Power of Super Saiyan Blue. Until there is actual proof for it, then it is only 8-9x Super Saiyan God. You keep commenting but you fail to bring actual proof.

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    • I did bring actual proof. The Manga and Anime are clearly very different, so I don't get why you're acting as if the Manga's multiplier is the set multiplier for each continuity.

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    • Whis didn't say that the multiplier for SSB was below 10 times stronger than SSG, he said that Vegeta's SSB was that low because of his stamina loss.

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    • @FlatZone What do you believe the multiplier for Perfected Blue to be then.

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    • Whis is talking about SSGSS's full power which is Perfected SSGSS. Meaning SSG is more than 10% of that in power.

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    • Prove that he was referring to Perfected SSGSS. Vegeta didn't even have that form at the time, neither did Goku.

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    • IT'S NOT AN ACTUAL FORM. All Perfected SSGSS is, is SSGSS without losing power. It even says so in the page.

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    • Whis wasn’t talking about Perfected SSB, the comment above states this as well, but Whis said Vegeta’s “usual” power. As in when the form takes its drop in power after the first few seconds of transformation.

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    • "Similar to a regular, unrefined Super Saiyan, a Super Saiyan Blue possesses inherently poor stamina. Because of this, a Super Saiyan Blue would usually be able to maintain peak levels of ability for only the brief period following their initial transformation before exhaustion sets in and performance begins to plummet rapidly. " The stamina drain causes the exhaustion which caused Vegeta's SSGSS to go down to 10% of its full power.. Perfected SSGSS IS the full power of SSGSS.

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Perfected_Super_Saiyan_Blue

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    • It’s not a form of its own but a different state of a form.

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    • Perfected SSGSS isn't just SSGSS before the strain, that's completely wrong. You literally just posted a page that also says it's a different form. "It is noted to be a higher transformation than Super Saiyan Blue."

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    • “In the manga, completing Super Saiyan Blue results in the user being able to transform into a higher form: Perfected Super Saiyan Blue.”

      I stand corrected it is a different transformation.

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    • That would mean that Super Saiyan Full Power(the one Goku and Gohan use) would also be a higher transformation. So which is it then?? SSGSS and PSSGSS are the same thing, one just does not have the stamina drain, therefor the power does not get lowered.

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_Full_Power

      " Kakarot... He managed to seal the Blue's overflowing power within his body. Blue's weakness is that its full power only lasts for a short while. He faced that weakness and overcame it. Gokū is continuously fighting at one hundred percent. Finally, he has perfected Super Saiyan Blue. "

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    • Unfortunately we don’t decide what they do and do not count as a higher transformation, also the other name for SSFP is Super Saiyan 4th Grade so yes in a way it is counted as a different transformation.

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    • “In the manga, the Super Saiyan Blue form's full power only manifests for a short while (in the initial moments of the form's usage during battle) and then immediately drops to the Super Saiyan Blue's normal levels of power. However, the true full power of the Blue form is explosively more powerful than the ordinary regulated power of the form, and so both Goku and Vegeta strived to find a way to utilize it at all times.”

      No this isn’t the reduction in power Vegeta received. This is what blues “normal” power levels are.

      “The form's stamina flaw is elaborated on in the Dragon Ball Super manga: If the form is subsequently used multiple times in a row, on the second consecutive usage the user’s abilities will all drop by over 90% from their full power“

      This is the stamina flaw Vegeta experienced.

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    • The reason they can't use SSGSS full power which is PSSGSS was because of the stamina flaw. They got around that flaw and bam PSSGSS. Only in the anime does PSSGSS not exist.

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    • PSSB removes both of these issues effectively forcing Blue to function at 100% capacity(which it has the first couple of moments after transformation). It was the cause of the removal of the stamina issues.

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    • Ok i think this thread went on enough, there's almost 200 replies-

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    • Well to answer the question of the discussion, according to Dragon Ball Z: Extreme Butōden, Super Saiyan Blue is supposedly the most powerful of all Super Saiyan transformations.

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    • Current media portrays SS4 and SSB as almost equal and until there is even more current media to show us different then that is how it is.

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    • I just don’t know how credible these games are. As the authors aren’t directly involved.

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    • Current media includes the Heroes anime too. But I myself put plain old SS4 stronger than SSG but weaker than SSGSS in power. UFPS4 is about as Strong as SSGSS. God Ki Enhanced Super Saiyan 4 would be stronger than PSSGSS.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Current media portrays SS4 and SSB as almost equal and until there is even more current media to show us different then that is how it is.

      LOL That's absolutely not how it is. You're citing the Super Dragon Ball Heroes promotional anime, a glorified commercial for the video game, as proof for the power of two forms. Video games and their tie ins are not a good example.

      If you want to go by that, the Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Dark Demon Realm Mission manga also has Xeno: Goku Super Saiyan 4 and Goku as a Super Saiyan Blue fight and Xeno Goku admits that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger than him. Dragon Ball Z: Extreme Butōden, a game with both Blue and SSJ4 in it, calls Blue the strongest Saiyan form.

      The only official comment we have comes from V-Jump back when Blue first debuted which called it the "ultimate form of the Saiyan race." Sounds pretty straightforward to me. And as for the power multiplier, the truth is we don't know: but a safe guess is 50x that of Super Saiyan God. Why? Because in both the revival of Freeza arc and in the anime-only Fake Vegeta Arc, it is stated to simply be the Super Saiyan version of Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan has a 50x multiplier; therefore, It's pretty safe to assume they have the same multiplier then, if Blue is just the Super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God.

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    • Man, just buzz off. I already explained time and time again. I don't need to re-explain anything to you bucko.

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    • I put SSJ4 as strong as Super Saiyan Red but not as Blue, since Blue seems to be the pinnacle. I still stand by it being 50x Super Saiyan Red because the multiplier has no reason to change. UFPS4 is a totally different story.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Man, just buzz off. I already explained time and time again. I don't need to re-explain anything to you bucko.

      You're right. You don't. Because you clearly don't understand it yourself. Why would I need someone who doesn't know what he's talking about to explain anything to me?

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    • Ok, I woke up a few hours ago and I see this is still going. SSB >>> SS4, and nothing can change that. Even if you say "iTs oNlY 8-9 tImEs sUpEr SaiyAn gOD" or something like that, it doesn't matter or change anything. Nothing proves that Xeno Goku and CC Goku are equal in base. Even if they are, SSB won the fight. Also, DBH literally doesn't matter whatsoever in this. It's to promote a completely noncanon video game. If we're going by games, SSB is still stronger than SS4.

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    • FlatZone, there's a reason I left this discussion. vsbattles people are too deep in their own idea of what logic is to have the slightest sense of intellectual honesty or introspection. They'll be wrong all their lives and will never be able to admit or recognize it, even to themselves.

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    • Not even gonna begin on the arrogant post above.

      Also, my point isn't gonna change any time soon. SSB still > SS4 and I've done enough to proof it.  @FlatZone Deny it all you want, it's there and it's staying there. Just calling it stupid isn't really gonna change it either. If this is the end of the argument, I'm done replying.

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    • Orion, you should really try to think outside your own box, if you’d look at the proof you’d realize no one has said anything about vsbattle. And that we want to have a nice discussion but you just make it to dang difficult. The only one who is stuck in their own incorrect opinion is you, and if you want to keep it that’s fine you just have an odd need to say anything and everything but your opinion is incorrect. Even when proof is provided. Again if you believe something else, that’s fine just learn to co-exist with other people instead of beating them over the head with your incorrect “logic”.

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    • I know @Orion. Why are you two still talking to me about that?? I already stopped talking to both of you about that. I went back to the actual SSB vs SS4 debate, which in the real series (GT and Super) which IMO SS4 is stronger than SSG but weaker than SSGSS.

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Dimps

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Bandai_Namco

      https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Spike



      Now of we can figure out which one is more closely connected to Toei Animation and Bird Studio then the games that the company makes can be taken as a better source for the animes.

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    • http://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/en/film/detail.php?id=542 DB Super Anime.

      http://corp.toei-anim.co.jp/en/film/detail.php?id=307 DBGT Anime.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Toei_Animation_video_game_projects.

      https://www.bandainamcoent.com/games/dragon-ball-xenoverse-2

      Xenoverse 2 should be on the list too, but as it says the list is not current. So whatever games are connected to Bird Studio are more liable sources than any of the games that are not, since Bird Studio IS Toriyama's company, he created it and still runs it. Therefor SS4 is stronger than SSGod but is unclear compared to SSBlue in the animes. Xenoverse 2 pretty much makes it clear SS4 is better than SSGod. In Infinite History story SS4 is definitely stronger than Super Saiyan God.

      Whichever games come out later, are the ones that have the more liable info, since old info can be updated or retconned.

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    • I'm being honest when I say that the games have no say in this. Like, at all. This also goes for Xenoverse 2.

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    • Xenoverse 2 is connected to Bird Studio and the anime's creators, it also came out later than the other mentioned games in the thread. So whatever info they are given for the voice lines and game info are from Bird Studio and the anime's creators. They put SS4 above SSGod. You don't like that then go ahead and email them. Don't complain to me about it. And your honesty? it's worth nothing when it's wrong, like it is right now.

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    • Honestly I’d buy SS4 being stronger than Super Saiyan Red, it makes sense. I just don’t believe it is as strong as Blue, as Blue is supposed to be the pinnacle. If there is evidence that Toriyama says SS4 is stronger then we really can do nothing about it, in reality if he says SS4 is stronger it doesn’t matter because he would more than likely put it into the main series and we’d get a SS4Blue or something like that, making the debate irrelevant. I’d love SS4 to come back honestly.

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    • I would love for SS4 to be put in the main series, but I think it should be a form for Gohan and not for Goku and Vegeta, since SS4 brings out the full potential similar to Potential Unleashed, on top of a multiplier.

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    • Well to be frank I don’t think they’ll give anything with the name Super Saiyan to Gohan and not to Vegets and Goks, but it would be kinda funny that he was “evolving as a human” and tapped into his primal Saiyan roots. But SS4 was just such a perfect design, you get the regal power mixed with primal wrath it’s just to cool. Where Blue/Red had to grow on me, I always had hoped Red would become their permanent base form, with all the uncertainty that came with the forms, 4 was just there. I didn’t like how he used it against EVERYONE but Blue has that exact same issue so... tough I guess.

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    • 4 is also technically not a Super Saiyan form, it is of a different line. So it would still fit with Gohan aiming for an Ultimate Form different than Goku's.

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    • In the TOP manga Gohan says he is choosing not to evolve as a Saiyan but a human, that’s what I was talking about, I don’t know how serious they’ll take this statement though. But it is a Super Saiyan form, as it is Super Saiyan 1 on great ape, but it’s not a “main line” form such as SS2–3

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    • That is in the manga that he says that. In the anime he only says he is aiming for an Ultimate Form different than his fathers. Gohan was born with a tail hence he has the potential for SS4 so if they gave that to him it would be awesome IMO and since he already has his Potential Unleashed, it should theoretically be easier to attain SS4.

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    • Well I don’t think Old Kais potential unlock has anything to do necessarily with SS4, but I just don’t want him to get the form, then stop training again...

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    • FlatZone wrote: That is in the manga that he says that. In the anime he only says he is aiming for an Ultimate Form different than his fathers. Gohan was born with a tail hence he has the potential for SS4 so if they gave that to him it would be awesome IMO and since he already has his Potential Unleashed, it should theoretically be easier to attain SS4.

      How would having Potential Unleashed make it easier to become Super Saiyan 4, a technique which requires a tail, Super Saiyan, and the ability to retain one's consciousness while in the Great Ape form? And why would they even give him that form? Broly's new transformation is already the Great Ape's power in human form, and going Super Saiyan while in that "enraged" state is what gives him that buff-version of the normal Super Saiyan. It almost completely invalidates Super Saiyan 4.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Xenoverse 2 is connected to Bird Studio and the anime's creators, it also came out later than the other mentioned games in the thread. So whatever info they are given for the voice lines and game info are from Bird Studio and the anime's creators. They put SS4 above SSGod. You don't like that then go ahead and email them. Don't complain to me about it. And your honesty? it's worth nothing when it's wrong, like it is right now.

      All video games have input from the anime studios they're based on. It doesn't make what they have to say anymore official. Series like Heroes, Xenoverse, and Raging Blast embrace what-if scenarios liberally (Legendary Super Saiyan 3, anyone?) but those almost never appear in the main series. You're literally just pulling at whatever you can to make your fan theory correct. The truth is, the video games are all over the place in terms of who is stronger.

      The Super Dragon Ball Heroes promotional anime makes Super Saiyan 4 seem stronger, but the very same series' promotional manga, with the exact same combatants mind you, says Super Saiyan Blue is stronger. Butoden says Blue is stronger as well. I don't see why any of us should consider what any of them have to say. When Toriyama makes a comment, then we can talk.

      Note: A statement from Bird Studio is not the same as a statement from Toriyama. Toriyama has been quite vocal about how he feels about things regarding his series and gives plenty of interviews. He's not going to rely on conflicting accounts from a video game series to speak to what is or isn't true in the anime/manga. The April 2015 issue of V-Jump in which Super Saiyan Blue debuted just before Revival of "F" was released referred to it as the "ultimate form of the Saiyan race." That is more official of a statement than will ever come from some vague dialogue in a video game produced by a company that is tied to Toriyama through business strings. Please get real.

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    • Use your brain. Broly is a Legendary Saiyan and did not have a tail, and did not turn into a Legendary Golden Great Ape first, so there is that difference.. also don't comment to me if you want to start shit period. Also, kindly **** off.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Use your brain. Also, kindly **** off.

      Yep, that's exactly what I thought :) Thanks for proving my point!

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    • You don't have a point, you're just a weeb who doesn't use his brain.

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    • FlatZone wrote: You don't have a point, you're just a weeb who doesn't use his brain.

      Uh, I provided references for every single point that I made. I backed up my points with evidence form the video game anime/manga you cited and brought in even more support from other sources outside of them as well. That's the definition of using my brain. And I also did it without insulting you. So what does that say about you?

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    • lmaoo without insulting me?? right... You don't seem to understand that context always matters and minor details do matter in most cases, that's your fault and your problem not mine.

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    • FlatZone wrote: lmaoo without insulting me?? right... You don't seem to understand that context always matters and minor details do matter in most cases, that's your fault and your problem not mine.

      Well, we'll see what the admins have to say about that. I am done engaging in your meaningless drivel. It's quite clear to me, and a few people who have replied to you on here, that you would rather sling insults than back up your points with facts. And if that's the way you want to behave, then fine. Reap the consequences of it.

      It's just too bad that good-faith debate can't continue without you feeling the need to act like a child.

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    • You are acting like a child rn, not my fault that you like to condescend and insult others but you simply can't handle it being done to you, child.

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    • @FlatZone "not my fault that you like to condescend and insult others but you simply can't handle it being done to you" Except you've insulted people more than anyone else, by a long shot I'd say.  you've been going on and on about how people are 'fools' or 'can't use their brain'.

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    • So these CAN go over 200 posts, or is the world ending?

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    • 500

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    • Oh okay, *puts down riot gear*.

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    • @Flatzone I recommend you to stop, everyone here is against you and if you go further your just gonna get in more of a mess.

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    • FlatZone wrote: IT'S NOT AN ACTUAL FORM. All Perfected SSGSS is, is SSGSS without losing power. It even says so in the page.

      I have not seen the Manga version of the Goku Black Arc, but I am pretty sure that Perfected SSGSS actually gave Merged Zamasu trouble. Ima search it up.

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    • PSSB Goku was atleast equal to fusion zamasu, zamasu had the upper hand with infinite stamina and recovery so PSSB Goku was extremely powerful.

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    • A FANDOM user
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