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  • Alright let’s see... First fought Beerus as a SSG which would of turned the universe into a void and destroy it (There universe is 3 times more then ours which makes him equal to 3 universes) thennnn he managed to absorb it and turn super Saiyan which would turn him to 50 times universal which would equal to 150 of our universe. Vegeta managed to destroy the Hyber Time Chamber which is a different dimension and as you know, Goku is stronger. He managed to shake the world of void when he turned Ultra Instinct Sign. That’s about it. I’m a Gokutard.

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    • Powerful enough to see why kids love cinnamon toast crunch.

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    • Beerus was afraid of Goku's SSBxKK.

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    • Beerus was afraid at how fast Goku was catching up.

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    • Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.

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    • Base Goku and Base Vegeta now Surpass SS3 Gotenks which = Super Buu. In fact they are much stronger than Super Buu and SS3 Gotenks considering how easily base Copy Vegeta toyed with SS3 Gotenks and then defeated him like nothing. Gohan at ToP in base is equal to Goku and Vegeta in base. If SPCell had the power to blow away the Solar System, then you can guess just how strong they are.

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    • SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.

      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.

      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

      Gotta love those vsbattles guys. They set up an incoherent and flawed ranking system based on faulty premises, then claim that it applies to every single franchise, because it's "logical".

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.
      Gotta HATE those vsbattles guys. They set up an incoherent and flawed ranking system based on faulty premises, then claim that it applies to every single franchise, because it's "logical".

      Edited for accuracy and spite.

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    • FlatZone
      FlatZone removed this reply because:
      too mean considering he didn't come and insult anybody
      03:11, November 21, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • Aww were you insulting me? It's okay Flat, I still ike you.

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    • Not you, the vswiki guy lol

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    • We don’t know the multiplier for SSB but let’s say it’s 500,000x, if that’s the case then RoF Goku would be 500,000x universal, which means 1,500,000 of our universes.Btw I have a feeling this post is going to be a complete mess.

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    • Dude... don't start this.

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    • Strong enough. Currently he's using perfected ssb form, and his power increased in that form.  He will be 20 times stronger than him at TOP.

      by my view SSB is 5125,000,000 times stronger than base.

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    • Gogeta Omni wrote: Stromg enough. Currently he's using perfected ssb form, and his power increased in that form.  He will be 20 times stronger than him at TOP.

      by my view SSB is 5125,000,000 times stronger than base.

      Mine is 5,000,000,000

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    • ohmylord...

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    • I think we’re long past Super Saiyan forms having multipliers, at this point I believe it’s just “stronger than before”. Logically at this point he would have done Super Saiyan 2 or 3 Blue but Kaio-Ken Blue eliminates the need for either, unless SSB2 had some insanely different power level which I could definitely see happening, Goku could even use Kaiōken on the Blue 2-3. He is definitely on the verge of surpassing Beerus, he already has in Ultra Instinct.

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    • Alvin3000alvarez
      Alvin3000alvarez removed this reply because:
      I need to Read back Rules Wiki.
      09:50, November 26, 2018
      This reply has been removed
    • ... there is literally not a single beneficial or logical reason to include “Goku dragon all super anime:”. What are you doing?

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    • What’s wrong with DBS Anime Goku?

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    • We know where it’s from. We know who has it.

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    • Maybe he just wanted to make sure you knew what he was talking about.

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    • ... no

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    • Maybe ...

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    • NervousShipper wrote:
      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

      '4D is not a concept used' 

      So are we supposed to ignore the feats he has shown? Let's calculate.

      If Goku shook the world of void, which is supposedly nothing, infinitely.

      We know that's 3D, but if Goku is powerful enough to effect INFINITE 3D, that would make him, or at least his attack potency, 4D. 

      Excuse me for trying to powerscale. I'll let you use your hasty generalizations in peace now.

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    • They already said Goku was universe in base, I’m not super duper smart so I don’t know what 4D is, but that much is already stated by when he and Vegeta became the level of Super Saiyan Red in base form and the NUMEROUS times they have become insanely stronger.

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    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      NervousShipper wrote:
      SecretSynergy wrote:
      Goku's base is undoubtly universal, his attack potency is 4D.
      4D is not a concept used in DB. Please stop spreading misinformation.

      '4D is not a concept used' 

      So are we supposed to ignore the feats he has shown? Let's calculate.

      If Goku shook the world of void, which is supposedly nothing, infinitely.

      We know that's 3D, but if Goku is powerful enough to effect INFINITE 3D, that would make him, or at least his attack potency, 4D. 

      Excuse me for trying to powerscale. I'll let you use your hasty generalizations in peace now.

      That's not how dimensions work. Drop the vsbattles and pick up a book some time.

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    • Chrome0X wrote: They already said Goku was universe in base, I’m not super duper smart so I don’t know what 4D is, but that much is already stated by when he and Vegeta became the level of Super Saiyan Red in base form and the NUMEROUS times they have become insanely stronger.

      No, they didn't. No official statement was made about that because "universe in base" is a made-up term by a bunch of nerds who don't know physics or mathematics.

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    • Actually on this very wiki you can find out, you don’t need math or physics to watch TV and listen. Super Saiyan Red was universe level at least, Goku and Vegeta are STRONGER than that in U6 Destroyers arc IN BASE due to absorbing the form into it. You don’t need “Official Statemnets” to extrapolate from what they literally put in front of you. And the fact that you’re here debating with us shows you’re one of those nerds so, yeah.

      In addition to that, mathematics and physics aren’t really able to be applied in this or really any comic series, has a scientist ever actually blown up the universe? Or gone to the edge? No, they haven’t. So anything they say is “For certain” is a THEORY as in HEAVILY supported but no, not 100% proven.

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    • Chrome0X wrote: Actually on this very wiki you can find out, you don’t need math or physics to watch TV and listen. Super Saiyan Red was universe level at least, Goku and Vegeta are STRONGER than that in U6 Destroyers arc IN BASE due to absorbing the form into it. You don’t need “Official Statemnets” to extrapolate from what they literally put in front of you. And the fact that you’re here debating with us shows you’re one of those nerds so, yeah.

      At least this nerd knows physics and mathematics and doesn't insist that an incoherent and flawed model based on faulty premises must apply to every franchise.

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    • Honestly I don’t even know what 4D is, and I’m not going to go find out because it doesn’t sounds very useful. All I’m saying is that Goku and Vegeta are Universe in base I don’t say 4D because again, I don’t know what that is. But at the very least don’t discredit someone because that’s the model they use, if it’s faulty it’s their faulty model to use. And if 4D describes a universe, then they’re simply saying they are universe level in base.

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    • Chrome0X wrote: Honestly I don’t even know what 4D is, and I’m not going to go find out because it doesn’t sounds very useful. All I’m saying is that Goku and Vegeta are Universe in base I don’t say 4D because again, I don’t know what that is. But at the very least don’t discredit someone because that’s the model they use, if it’s faulty it’s their faulty model to use. And if 4D describes a universe, then they’re simply saying they are universe level in base.

      A faulty model leads to faulty conclusions, as does faulty logic. Understanding the general concept of dimensions is more useful than you think, and is required if you want to make statements like "so and so is 4D" and actually know what you're talking about. Same with "universe level in base" or anything else.

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    • Bottom line is, you can't simultaneously pretend your model is somehow logical and/or scientific while also claiming that it's OK that it's illogical and unscientific.

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    • Scientific, again is unproven, it’s just as illogical as going off of your personal opinion, scientists have never blown up a universe so they do not know what it takes or who can. However if the series itself states they are universe level in base, THAT is concrete you can go off of that. And if one of the ways someone knows how to describe a universe is 4D then you can surely understand what they mean without knowing physics or mathematics.

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    • The series itself has never stated that. You inferred it by filtering events through your own biases and your faulty model and, predictably, reached a faulty conclusion.

      If you want to pretend to be a scientist and pretend your opinions are logical and/or scientific, you should at least endeavor to learn what it is that you're trying to emulate. My "opinion", as you called it, is backed up by my real knowledge of real science, as opposed to a few buzzwords I learned on a random wiki.

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    • If just like to add that it’s nice to have someone who takes only stated things in the series as facts for said series. Thank you, Orion.

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    • Kind of an odd compliment given our past discussions regarding "canon", but thanks.

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    • Okay, you must not be capable of reading or you just negelect to, so let’s break this down. The series has stated they are universe level by showing them absorbing Super Saiyan Red into their base, so no it’s not my opinion, it’s not my bias, it’s your idiocy. The fact that you cannot watch/read a series and understand it is baffling to me. I haven’t learned any buzzwords in this wiki everything I know is from the anime/manga itself, I don’t pretend to know real science I have shown that I know this series, what “real science” shows that people can grow monkey tails, or have glowing hair, or move beyond the speed of light(which is scientifically impossible) you have as broken of a model as you claim Synergy did. What “real science” tells you the mass in the whole universe? What “real science” tells you what is necessary to destroy a whole universe? What “real science” experiment have you done to prove this theory? The fact of the matter is you don’t know what your talking about, and need to make an endeavor to learn before you spew out your nonesense as to what does and doesn’t make sense. You are biased, stubborn and completely unable to make clear decisions for yourself without some official statement, even though it is right in front of your face in the very series you supposedly watch/read.

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    • The series has not stated any such thing because the series does not recognize nor follow your flawed model.

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    • Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

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    • Since you don’t seem to be able to read, it’s called super saiyan god. Not red.

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    • I call it red, have a problem with that?

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    • Chrome0X wrote: Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

      No such thing has ever been stated in the series. It is fanon, plain and simple. Like I told the other guy, drop the vsbattles and pick up a book.

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    • Chrome0X wrote: I call it red, have a problem with that?

      No IronBULL, no problem

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote: Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

      No such thing has ever been stated in the series. It is fanon, plain and simple. Like I told the other guy, drop the vsbattles and pick up a book.

      Try reading the wiki then tell people what they should drop, drop your books and pick up the manga sometime.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote: Since you don’t seem to be able to read, let me go slow for you. Super Saiyan Red is universe level, Goku learned to use this power in base, hence he absorbed it into base. Making Goku universe in base, please tell me, what about this is flawed? It’s not my flawed model or logic it’s common sense to read/watch and understand plain information. Which you, apparently, cannot do.

      No such thing has ever been stated in the series. It is fanon, plain and simple. Like I told the other guy, drop the vsbattles and pick up a book.

      Try reading the wiki then tell people what they should drop, drop your books and pick up the manga sometime.

      Where does the wiki or the comic say "Goku is now universal in base"? I know: nowhere. That's because that is a fan-made term.

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    • Okay so, you’re telling me, you have NEVER read ANY part of the wiki that told you goku can now use the raw might of a Super Saiyan Red in base? Seriously? GO LOOK.

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    • SSGod was not universal destruction level, it takes the power of at least 2 Super Saiyan Gods(Beerus was only matching Goku in their fight) in one to do that. Also no, God-like Saiyan(SSG like power in base form) is not as strong Super Saiyan God, its just much stronger than Super Saiyan 2 and 3 and the proof is that Vegeta and Goku STILL use SSG afterwards. So SSGod x2 without holding back has the power to destroy the Universe and that's it. That means no holding back and releasing full power in one attack.

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    • Chrome0X wrote: Okay so, you’re telling me, you have NEVER read ANY part of the wiki that told you goku can now use the raw might of a Super Saiyan Red in base? Seriously? GO LOOK.

      That's not the same as saying "Goku is universe in base". No such statement has been made; that's just fanon.

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    • Yep. It’s a shame Red doesn’t know the difference between a statement and an inference.

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    • 5652554D-ABA3-4A6E-BA31-C68676F9B5B7
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    • Are you so bent on being right you ignore plain facts? Because if so I have no reason to continue wasting my time talking to you.

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    • I'm not ignoring facts; I'm dismissing what you've inferred from them, because you're using a demonstrably flawed system.

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    • Let me ask you this if Super Saiyan could theoretically destroy a Star, and he previously could not in base, then he learned to use the might of a Super Saiyan in base, that would make him star level in base would it not? Same gosh darn principle, not disproved, dismissed by someone who doesn’t want to admit when they’re wrong.

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    • "Star level" is not a term nor scale used in this series. Stop using fan terms.

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    • I said theoretically, answer the question.

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    • It's a loaded question that already assumes your faulty and fanon model to be true. Just because you ask a question doesn't mean I have to answer it, and doesn't mean the question makes sense. Here's an example:

      Have you stopped beating your wife? Yes or no?

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:
      "Star level" is not a term nor scale used in this series. Stop using fan terms.

      So how are we supposed to scale them then? If we are measuring someone's AP, we say, "so and so can destroy a planet."

      Meaning, p l a n e t - l e v e l

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    • Assumes my model is right? What model am I using? Super Saiyan Red was destroying the universe when clashing with Beerus, this puts him with the destructive capacity of a universe. He uses the raw might of this form in base. What does that tell you? And I’m not using fan terms, if a track runner can run 100km, that is counted as a feat and he is able to run 100km on record. i.e. NOT A FAN TERM a common sense term.

      And as a bonus, since I’m nice like that, I don’t have a wife.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Assumes my model is right? What model am I using? Super Saiyan Red was destroying the universe when clashing with Beerus, this puts him with the destructive capacity of a universe. He uses the raw might of this form in base. What does that tell you? And I’m not using fan terms, if a track runner can run 100km, that is counted as a feat and he is able to run 100km on record. i.e. NOT A FAN TERM a common sense term.

      And as a bonus, since I’m nice like that, I don’t have a wife.

      Thank you sir.

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    • @SecretSynergy No, thank you, finally someone else who uses common sense instead of fancy terms labeled “real science” and doesn’t dismiss what is plain in front of their face.

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    • You two keep up the echo chamber. It really bolsters the illusion that you're not just using fanon terms.

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    • Tell me, how can you go through life ignoring blatant facts in service to your own opinion?

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    • First, you tell me how you deal with people and things that don't fit into your worldview, just so I get some context of why you think it's OK to apply the same logic to various different things.

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    • I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

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    • Super Perfect Cell had enough power to destroy the Solar System. SSGod Goku vs Beerus using the same amount of power clashing = 1/3 or 1/4 the power to destroy the universe considering they said it would take 3 or 4 of their clashes to do it. Meaning it would take 3 or 4 Super Saiyan God's to do that at full power. So no, base Goku, Super Saiyan God Goku, and God-like Saiyan Goku could not destroy the universe. He would need to be 3-4 times as powerful as he is as a Super Saiyan God AND use his full power to do that.

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    • SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.

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    • In episode 12, when Super Saiyan Red Goku and Beerus were punching each other, the shock waves generated from their clash were so powerful that they were destroying everything in the universe. Several distant planets and stars were shown to be disintegrated by the destructive force of the shock waves and Elder Kai estimated that in just 3 clashes, the entire universe will turn into a vacuum of nothingness.

      Goku scales to universe level because he matched Beerus' punch with the exact same force and angle to cancel out the effect of destroying the entire universe. At that instance, both Goku and Beerus were using equal amounts of power.

      And if you want to say the shockwaves we’re getting stronger and that’s the only way it was destroying the universe, no Goku knew about the collateral damage the shock waves were causing. That's why he was trying to perfect the nullification technique in the first 2 tries. Since it was not perfected during the first 2 punches, the residual energy which was not nullified in the clash, resulted in the generation of the shock waves. Still, thanks to this incomplete cushioning effect, Goku at least managed to reduce the intensity of these shock waves near him and protect the Earth and Solar System. But as the shock waves went further away, Goku's cushioning effect on them also decreased. And thus, it appeared to Elder Kai that the waves were growing stronger the further they went.

      And, as we all know, Cell is Solar System level and when he and Gohan SS2 were clashing the only thing in danger was the planet, the PLANET yet Cell, and by POWER SCALING Gohan SS2, were solar system level. Which stands to reason what they put in danger in with their clashes IS NOT the max of their strength, not even close.

      At the start of episode 13, the narrator stated that the clash between Goku's Kamehameha and Beerus' Cataclysmic Orb, was about to destroy the entire Universe. But instead, their attacks merged together and formed a super dense energy ball. This energy ball also had enough power to destroy entire Universe 7. Since this energy was in the Earth's stratosphere and Earth itself is located near the edge of the universe, in DBS at least, the energy required for the ball to destroy the entire universe would be immense.

      At the end of the episode, the narrator again confirms that they were indeed hitting each other with the power capable of destroying the universe. And this is only his battle with Beerus at the BEGINNING of super, in which fight he broke his limits a couple times already, he has increased his power MANY fold now by the end.

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.

      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.

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    • SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.

      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.

      I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you're working off of a faulty premise. Namely, that you can properly powerscale Dragon Ball.

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    • Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote:

      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.
      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.
      I'm not saying you can't, I'm just saying you're working off of a faulty premise. Namely, that you can properly powerscale Dragon Ball.

      It certainly doesn't work all the time, dragon ball logic is... flawed, at best, but it is still applicable in most cases. Like the thread we have here.

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    • SecretSynergy wrote:
      Orion Invictus wrote:

      SecretSynergy wrote: I mean, are we not still powerscaling?

      To scale you need certain terms...

      See, there's your first mistake: trying to powerscale a cartoon infamous for its complete disregard of anything resembling a logical relation of power levels.
      I can scale whatever I like. Believe it or not, alot of people do. It can be a simple as saying Jiren > Yamcha.

      Of course you can, you can say whatever you want. However, you would still be wrong.

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    • Wrong? Come on people open your eyes Jiren obviously is much stronger than Yamcha and power scaling is not impossible it can just be slightly difficult, if power scaling wasn’t in dragon ball then Broly wouldn’t have been stated to be the strongest opponent Goku and Vegeta have faced. Wake up and smell the roses.

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    • Those aren't roses. That's manure.

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    • You must’ve taken a wrong turn somewhere...

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    • Of course I took a wrong turn, the course was your logic.

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    • Some shoddy navigational skills you got there slick.

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    • Thank you, it's been quite difficult trying to follow your map. It looks like you wrote it while having a seizure after 2 pots of coffee.

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    • OK moderators, lock the thread this isn't going anywhere.

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    • Because I posted proof of Goku being universe level in base, on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, I’m having a seizure after two pots of coffee. Fascinating.

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    • Chrome0X wrote:
      Because I posted proof of Goku being universe level in base, on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, I’m having a seizure after two pots of coffee. Fascinating.

      Oh no, at that point I was just snarking about navigation. Because you posted what you believe to be evidence of Goku being the fanon term "universe level in base", on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, you're wrong. Hope that clears things up.

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    • Oh dear, a lot of arguing, I don’t wanna join in because if I join either side the other will argue against me. Thank god I did not put how powerful xeno Goku is or else a lot of more mess.

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    • NervousShipper wrote:

      Chrome0X wrote:
      Because I posted proof of Goku being universe level in base, on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, I’m having a seizure after two pots of coffee. Fascinating.

      Oh no, at that point I was just snarking about navigation. Because you posted what you believe to be evidence of Goku being the fanon term "universe level in base", on a thread asking how powerful Goku is, you're wrong. Hope that clears things up.

      Please, do prove me wrong.

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    • The burden of proof is on the one who brought it up, not on the one called on to refute it.

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    • I already proved I was correct. You say I am not. So no, the burden of proof falls to you.

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    • Goku fought Beerus in Monaka costume in his base. Just sayin, not on any sides but I brought it up cuz y not lol.

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    • I would take that into account but, it has a lot of uncertainty. We don’t know how much power exactly Beerus used and we don’t know if that was just a filler arc not to be taken seriously or what. But it is definitely worth it to keep in mind.

      With all that said, Goku is indeed able to destroy a universe using his base form. As far as the immensely powerful forms above his base form, I don’t know a higher term than I guess multiverse.

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    • The form you are calling base form is called "saiyan beyond god form".  That's base form with god ki infused. Goku's normal base form is like his ssj form in buu saga level..

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    • Actually his base form is not infused with divine ki as they can still sense his energy. The form you are talking about is infact their base form, it’s them not letting any energy leak out raising it inside only. Which grants them the raw might of the Super Saiyan Red form in their base, without having to transform into the form.

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    • He's in the realm of a God of Destruction when using SSB, when he mastered UI he was definitely in the high end of GoD tier, as in the guide Beerus was uncertain if MUI Goku(Yes, MUI Goku not Sign, it was a scan for 130) was stronger than he was. However, this was contradicted for some dumb reason as on the Dragon Ball website they said both Vegeta and Goku are still trying to reach the level of the Gods, LOL.

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    • Goku is more powerful than the fusion of Jiren and Broly. Or at least he will be in a year or so.

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    • Stonecoldstunner wrote:
      He's in the realm of a God of Destruction when using SSB, when he mastered UI he was definitely in the high end of GoD tier, as in the guide Beerus was uncertain if MUI Goku(Yes, MUI Goku not Sign, it was a scan for 130) was stronger than he was. However, this was contradicted for some dumb reason as on the Dragon Ball website they said both Vegeta and Goku are still trying to reach the level of the Gods, LOL.

      Actually, I am pretty sure Beerus was unsure whether 3rd trigger Ui sign Goku was stronger or not. Not MUI.

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    • A FANDOM user
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